Mailing List Archive

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT
This is almost definitely the case.

On Mon, Feb 6, 2023, 2:39 AM Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:

> And this is a problem.
>
> If ChatGPT uses open content, there is an infringement of license.
>
> Specifically the CC-by-sa if it uses Wikipedia. In this case the
> attribution must be present.
>
> Kind regards
>
> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023, 08:12 Peter Southwood, <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
>> “Not citing sources is probably a conscious design choice, as citing
>> sources would mean sharing the sources used to train the language models”
>> This may be a choice that comes back to bite them. Without citing their
>> sources, they are unreliable as a source for anything one does not know
>> already. Someone will have a bad consequence from relying on the
>> information and will sue the publisher. It will be interesting to see how
>> they plan to weasel their way out of legal responsibility while retaining
>> any credibility. My guess is there will be a requirement to state that the
>> information is AI generated and of entirely unknown and untested
>> reliability. How soon to the first class action, I wonder. Lots of money
>> for the lawyers. Cheers, Peter.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Subhashish [mailto:psubhashish@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* 05 February 2023 06:37
>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT
>>
>>
>>
>> Just to clarify, my point was not about Getty to begin with. Whether
>> Getty would win and whether a big corporation should own such a large
>> amount of visual content are questions outside this particular thread. It
>> would certainly be interesting to see how things roll.
>>
>>
>>
>> But AI/ML is way more than just looking. Training with large models is a
>> very sophisticated and technical process. Data annotation among many other
>> forms of labour are done by real people. the article I had linked earlier
>> tells a lot about the real world consequences of AI. I'm certain AI/ML,
>> especially when we're talking about language models like ChatGPT, are far
>> from innocent looking/reading. For starters, derivative of works, except
>> Public Domain ones, must attribute the authors. Any provision for
>> attribution is deliberately removed from systems like ChatGPT and that only
>> gives corporations like OpenAI a free ride sans accountability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Subhashish
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2023, 4:41 PM Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not so sure Getty's got a case, though. If the images are on the Web,
>> is using them to train an AI something copyright would cover? That to me
>> seems more equivalent to just looking at the images, and there's no
>> copyright problem in going to Getty's site and just looking at a bunch of
>> their pictures.
>>
>>
>>
>> But it will be interesting to see how that one shakes out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 11:47 AM Subhashish <psubhashish@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Not citing sources is probably a conscious design choice, as citing
>> sources would mean sharing the sources used to train the language models.
>> Getty has just sued Stability AI, alleging the use of 12 million
>> photographs without permission or compensation. Imagine if Stability had to
>> purchase from Getty through a legal process. For starters, Getty might not
>> have agreed in the first place. Bulk-scaping publicly visible text in
>> text-based AIs like ChatGPT would mean scraping text with copyright. But
>> even reusing CC BY-SA content would require attribution. None of the AI
>> platforms attributes their sources because they did not acquire content in
>> legal and ethical ways [1]. Large language models won't be large and
>> releases won't happen fast if they actually start acquiring content
>> gradually from trustworthy sources. It took so many years for hundreds and
>> thousands of Wikimedians to take Wikipedias in different languages to where
>> they are for a reason.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/
>>
>>
>> Subhashish
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 1:06 PM Peter Southwood <
>> peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>> From what I have seen the AIs are not great on citing sources. If they
>> start citing reliable sources, their contributions can be verified, or not.
>> If they produce verifiable, adequately sourced, well written information,
>> are they a problem or a solution?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Gnangarra [mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* 04 February 2023 17:04
>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT
>>
>>
>>
>> I see our biggest challenge is going to be detecting these AI tools
>> adding content whether it's media or articles, along with identifying when
>> they are in use by sources. The failing of all new AI is not in its
>> ability but in the lack of transparency with that being able to be
>> identified by the readers. We have seen people impersonating musicians and
>> writing songs in their style. We have also seen pictures that have been
>> created by copying someone else's work yet not acknowledging it as being
>> derivative of any kind.
>>
>>
>>
>> Our big problems will be in ensuring that copyright is respected in
>> legally, and not hosting anything that is even remotely dubious
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 at 22:24, Adam Sobieski <adamsobieski@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Brainstorming on how to drive traffic to Wikimedia content from
>> conversational media, UI/UX designers could provide menu items or buttons
>> on chatbots' applications or webpage components (e.g., to read more about
>> the content, to navigate to cited resources, to edit the content, to
>> discuss the content, to upvote/downvote the content, to share the content
>> or the recent dialogue history on social media, to request
>> review/moderation/curation for the content, etc.). Many of these envisioned
>> menu items or buttons would operate contextually during dialogues, upon the
>> most recent (or otherwise selected) responses provided by the chatbot or
>> upon the recent transcripts. Some of these features could also be made
>> available to end-users via spoken-language commands.
>>
>> At any point during hypertext-based dialogues, end-users would be able to
>> navigate to Wikimedia content. These navigations could utilize either URL
>> query string arguments or HTTP POST. In either case, bulk usage data, e.g.,
>> those dialogue contexts navigated from, could be useful.
>>
>> The capability to perform A/B testing across chatbots’ dialogues, over
>> large populations of end-users, could also be useful. In this way,
>> Wikimedia would be better able to: (1) measure end-user engagement and
>> satisfaction, (2) measure the quality of provided content, (3) perform
>> personalization, (4) retain readers and editors. A/B testing could be
>> performed by providing end-users with various feedback buttons (as
>> described above). A/B testing data could also be obtained through data
>> mining, analyzing end-users’ behaviors, response times, responses, and
>> dialogue moves. These data could be provided for the community at special
>> pages and could be made available per article, possibly by enhancing the
>> “Page information” system. One can also envision these kinds of analytics
>> data existing at the granularity of portions of, or selections of,
>> articles.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Victoria Coleman <vstavridoucoleman@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 4, 2023 8:10 AM
>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Christophe,
>>
>>
>>
>> I had not thought about the threat to Wikipedia traffic from Chat GPT but
>> you have a good point. The success of the projects is always one step away
>> from the next big disruption. So the WMF as the tech provider for the
>> mission (because first and foremost in my view that?s what the WMF is - as
>> well as the financial engine of the movement of course) needs to pay
>> attention and experiment to maintain the long term viability of the
>> mission. In fact I think the cluster of our projects offers compelling
>> options. For example to your point below on data sets, we have the amazing
>> Wikidata as well the excellent work on abstract Wikipedia. We have
>> Wikipedia Enterprise which has built some avenues of collaboration with big
>> tech. A bold vision is needed to bring all of it together and build an MVP
>> for the community to experiment with.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Victoria Coleman
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 4, 2023, at 4:14 AM, Christophe Henner <
>> christophe.henner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> On the product side, NLP based AI biggest concern to me is that it would
>> drastically decrease traffic to our websites/apps. Which means less new
>> editors ans less donations.
>>
>>
>>
>> So first from a strictly positioning perspective, we have here a major
>> change that needs to be managed.
>>
>>
>>
>> And to be honest, it will come faster than we think. We are
>> perfectionists, I can assure you, most companies would be happy to launch a
>> search product with a 80% confidence in answers quality.
>>
>>
>>
>> From a financial perspective, large industrial investment like this are
>> usually a pool of money you can draw from in x years. You can expect they
>> did not draw all of it yet.
>>
>>
>>
>> Second, GPT 3 and ChatGPT are far from being the most expensive products
>> they have. On top of people you need:
>>
>> * datasets
>>
>> * people to tag the dataset
>>
>> * people to correct the algo
>>
>> * computing power
>>
>>
>>
>> I simplify here, but we already have the capacity to muster some of that,
>> which drastically lowers our costs :)
>>
>>
>>
>> I would not discard the option of the movement doing it so easily. That
>> being said, it would mean a new project with the need of substantial
>> ressources.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 4, 2023, at 9:30 AM, Adam Sobieski <adamsobieski@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> With respect to cloud computing costs, these being a significant
>> component of the costs to train and operate modern AI systems, as a
>> non-profit organization, the Wikimedia Foundation might be interested in
>> the National Research Cloud (NRC) policy proposal:
>> https://hai.stanford.edu/policy/national-research-cloud .
>>
>>
>>
>> "Artificial intelligence requires vast amounts of computing power, data,
>> and expertise to train and deploy the massive machine learning models
>> behind the most advanced research. But access is increasingly out of reach
>> for most colleges and universities. A National Research Cloud (NRC) would
>> provide academic and *non-profit researchers* with the compute power and
>> government datasets needed for education and research. By democratizing
>> access and equity for all colleges and universities, an NRC has the
>> potential not only to unleash a string of advancements in AI, but to help
>> ensure the U.S. maintains its leadership and competitiveness on the global
>> stage.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Throughout 2020, Stanford HAI led efforts with 22 top computer science
>> universities along with a bipartisan, bicameral group of lawmakers
>> proposing legislation to bring the NRC to fruition. On January 1, 2021, the
>> U.S. Congress authorized the National AI Research Resource Task Force Act
>> as part of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021.
>> This law requires that a federal task force be established to study and
>> provide an implementation pathway to create world-class computational
>> resources and robust government datasets for researchers across the country
>> in the form of a National Research Cloud. The task force will issue a final
>> report to the President and Congress next year.
>>
>>
>>
>> "The promise of an NRC is to democratize AI research, education, and
>> innovation, making it accessible to all colleges and universities across
>> the country. Without a National Research Cloud, all but the most elite
>> universities risk losing the ability to conduct meaningful AI research and
>> to adequately educate the next generation of AI researchers."
>>
>>
>>
>> See also: [1][2]
>>
>>
>>
>> [1]
>> https://www.whitehouse.gov/ostp/news-updates/2023/01/24/national-artificial-intelligence-research-resource-task-force-releases-final-report/
>>
>> [2]
>> https://www.ai.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/NAIRR-TF-Final-Report-2023.pdf
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Steven Walling <steven.walling@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 4, 2023 1:59 AM
>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:47 PM Gerg? Tisza <gtisza@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just to give a sense of scale: OpenAI started with a $1 billion donation,
>> got another $1B as investment, and is now getting a larger investment from
>> Microsoft (undisclosed but rumored to be $10B). Assuming they spent most of
>> their previous funding, which seems likely, their operational costs are in
>> the ballpark of $300 million per year. The idea that the WMF could just
>> choose to create conversational software of a similar quality if it wanted
>> seems detached from reality to me.
>>
>>
>>
>> Without spending billions on LLM development to aim for a
>> conversational chatbot trying to pass a Turing test, we could definitely
>> try to catch up to the state of the art in search results. Our search
>> currently does a pretty bad job (in terms of recall especially). Today's
>> featured article in English is the Hot Chip album "Made in the Dark", and
>> if I enter anything but the exact article title the typeahead results are
>> woefully incomplete or wrong. If I ask an actual question, good luck.
>>
>>
>>
>> Google is feeling vulnerable to OpenAI here in part because everyone can
>> see that their results are often full of low quality junk created for SEO,
>> while ChatGPT just gives a concise answer right there.
>>
>>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Menu_(2022_film) is one of the top
>> viewed English articles. If I search "The Menu reviews" the Google results
>> are noisy and not so great. ChatGPT actually gives you nothing relevant
>> because it doesn't know anything from 2022. If we could just manage to
>> display the three sentence snippet of our article about the critical
>> response section of the article, it would be awesome. It's too bad that the
>> whole "knowledge engine" debacle poisoned the well when it comes to a
>> Wikipedia search engine, because we could definitely do a lot to learn from
>> what people like about ChatGPT and apply to Wikipedia search.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Boodarwun
>> Gnangarra
>>
>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>> koortaboodjar'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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