Mailing List Archive: [Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production

[Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production

Mar 25, 2021, 12:58 AM

Post #1 of 8 (195 views)

Hello,

tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help us
test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.

Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to
replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org and powering all of
our mailing lists.

Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old
user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in
plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old
code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web
interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin
languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.

The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is
now ready for proper testing! Give it a try:
https://lists-next.wikimedia.org. We have created some mailing lists you
can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list
administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.

WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test
period is over.

We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.

If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the
“Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.

In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from
the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index
size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like
monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.

Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on
lists.wikimedia.org and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be
upgraded to the 21st century.

The overall task tracking this project is T52864
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864> and a big thank you people who
are helping this move forward.

Regards,

Kunal and Amir

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production [ In reply to ]

alphos.ogame at gmail

Mar 25, 2021, 4:07 AM

Post #2 of 8 (195 views)

Permalink

Hello Amir, hello all,

Fantastic news !

Quick side question : whatever will happen to the passwords that we kept on post-it notes sticked to our monitors for lack of frequent use or good enough cognitive skills ?
Joke aside, will there be a site-wide password purge once v3 is deployed, or shall we keep on using our old passwords, with the currently plaintext passwords stored in files simply hashed and stored in the new database ?

Whatever the case, fantastic news :-)

Roger / Alphos

> Le 25 mars 2021 à 08:58, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> Hello,
>
> tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org <https://lists-next.wikimedia.org/> is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
>
> Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org <https://lists.wikimedia.org/> and powering all of our mailing lists.
>
> Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
>
> The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is now ready for proper testing! Give it a try: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org <https://lists-next.wikimedia.org/>. We have created some mailing lists you can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
>
> WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test period is over.
>
> We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
>
> If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
>
> In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
>
> Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on lists.wikimedia.org <http://lists.wikimedia.org/> and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be upgraded to the 21st century.
>
> The overall task tracking this project is T52864 <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864> and a big thank you people who are helping this move forward.
>
> Regards,
> Kunal and Amir
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production [ In reply to ]

luis at lu

Mar 25, 2021, 6:40 AM

Post #3 of 8 (195 views)

Permalink

Seemingly small but nevertheless terrific news.

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:08 AM Alphos OGame <alphos.ogame@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Amir, hello all,
>
> Fantastic news !
>
> Quick side question : whatever will happen to the passwords that we kept
> on post-it notes sticked to our monitors for lack of frequent use or good
> enough cognitive skills ?
> Joke aside, will there be a site-wide password purge once v3 is deployed,
> or shall we keep on using our old passwords, with the currently plaintext
> passwords stored in files simply hashed and stored in the new database ?
>
> Whatever the case, fantastic news :-)
>
> Roger / Alphos
>
>
> Le 25 mars 2021 à 08:58, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> Hello,
>
> tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help
> us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
>
> Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to
> replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org and powering all of
> our mailing lists.
>
> Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old
> user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in
> plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old
> code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web
> interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin
> languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
>
> The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is
> now ready for proper testing! Give it a try:
> https://lists-next.wikimedia.org. We have created some mailing lists you
> can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list
> administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
>
> WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test
> period is over.
>
> We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
>
> If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the
> “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
>
> In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from
> the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index
> size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like
> monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
>
> Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on
> lists.wikimedia.org and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be
> upgraded to the 21st century.
>
> The overall task tracking this project is T52864
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864> and a big thank you people who
> are helping this move forward.
>
> Regards,
> Kunal and Amir
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <
> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
> <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production [ In reply to ]

ladsgroup at gmail

Mar 25, 2021, 9:39 AM

Post #4 of 8 (195 views)

Permalink

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:07 PM Alphos OGame <alphos.ogame@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello Amir, hello all,
>
> Fantastic news !
>
> Quick side question : whatever will happen to the passwords that we kept
> on post-it notes sticked to our monitors for lack of frequent use or good
> enough cognitive skills ?
> Joke aside, will there be a site-wide password purge once v3 is deployed,
> or shall we keep on using our old passwords, with the currently plaintext
> passwords stored in files simply hashed and stored in the new database ?
>

You shouldn't reuse those passwords from the old mailman as they are stored
in plain text but the good thing (and a rather important thing) about
mailman3 is that you can make a central account for all mailing lists and
then use that instead. So there won't be a need to store twenty different
passwords for each mailing list you are a member of (or admin/moderator).
Hope just one more password would be okay ;)

Best

>
> Whatever the case, fantastic news :-)
>
> Roger / Alphos
>
>
> Le 25 mars 2021 à 08:58, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> Hello,
>
> tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help
> us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
>
> Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to
> replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org and powering all of
> our mailing lists.
>
> Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old
> user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in
> plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old
> code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web
> interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin
> languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
>
> The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is
> now ready for proper testing! Give it a try:
> https://lists-next.wikimedia.org. We have created some mailing lists you
> can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list
> administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
>
> WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test
> period is over.
>
> We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
>
> If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the
> “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
>
> In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from
> the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index
> size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like
> monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
>
> Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on
> lists.wikimedia.org and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be
> upgraded to the 21st century.
>
> The overall task tracking this project is T52864
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864> and a big thank you people who
> are helping this move forward.
>
> Regards,
> Kunal and Amir
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <
> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
> <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>

--
Amir (he/him)

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production [ In reply to ]

alphos.ogame at gmail

Mar 25, 2021, 11:07 AM

Post #5 of 8 (195 views)

Permalink

Now *that* is fantastic news indeed. I'll be sure to read up on that.
The dinosaur's dead, long live the new, uh, dinosaur ! ;-)

Roger / Alphos

> Le 25 mars 2021 à 17:39, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:07 PM Alphos OGame <alphos.ogame@gmail.com <mailto:alphos.ogame@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hello Amir, hello all,
>
> Fantastic news !
>
> Quick side question : whatever will happen to the passwords that we kept on post-it notes sticked to our monitors for lack of frequent use or good enough cognitive skills ?
> Joke aside, will there be a site-wide password purge once v3 is deployed, or shall we keep on using our old passwords, with the currently plaintext passwords stored in files simply hashed and stored in the new database ?
>
> You shouldn't reuse those passwords from the old mailman as they are stored in plain text but the good thing (and a rather important thing) about mailman3 is that you can make a central account for all mailing lists and then use that instead. So there won't be a need to store twenty different passwords for each mailing list you are a member of (or admin/moderator). Hope just one more password would be okay ;)
>
> Best
>
> Whatever the case, fantastic news :-)
>
> Roger / Alphos
>
>
>> Le 25 mars 2021 à 08:58, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com <mailto:ladsgroup@gmail.com>> a écrit :
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org <https://lists-next.wikimedia.org/> is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
>>
>> Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org <https://lists.wikimedia.org/> and powering all of our mailing lists.
>>
>> Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
>>
>> The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is now ready for proper testing! Give it a try: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org <https://lists-next.wikimedia.org/>. We have created some mailing lists you can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
>>
>> WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test period is over.
>>
>> We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
>>
>> If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
>>
>> In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
>>
>> Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on lists.wikimedia.org <http://lists.wikimedia.org/> and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be upgraded to the 21st century.
>>
>> The overall task tracking this project is T52864 <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864> and a big thank you people who are helping this move forward.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kunal and Amir
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production [ In reply to ]

pankaj at codeisgreat

Mar 25, 2021, 11:45 PM

Post #6 of 8 (195 views)

Permalink

Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> writes:

> tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help us
> test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.

Indeed this is great news. I have subscribed to a couple of mailing
lists that are already using v3. And it really makes it easy to
manage. Thanks for working on this.

One question. I subscribe to this list via the NNTP bridge hosted at
gmane.io. Will the change make any difference at that end? I mean do the
administrators of Gmane require any change?

--
Regards,
Pankaj Jangid

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production [ In reply to ]

legoktm at debian

Mar 26, 2021, 3:16 PM

Post #7 of 8 (195 views)

Permalink

Hi,

On 3/25/21 11:45 PM, Pankaj Jangid wrote:
> One question. I subscribe to this list via the NNTP bridge hosted at
> gmane.io. Will the change make any difference at that end? I mean do the
> administrators of Gmane require any change?

My understanding is that Gmane is subscribed to our mailing lists just
like a normal user. I don't expect anything will change in that area
since all subscriptions will be carried over.

Mailman3 also has plugins for sites like mail-archive.com[1] which I
think are manually configured for now. I haven't looked into the
implications of what enabling such a plugin would be though.

[1]
https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/archiving/docs/common.html#the-mail-archive-com

-- Kunal

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Test Mailman3 in production [ In reply to ]

eloquence at gmail

Mar 26, 2021, 8:58 PM

Post #8 of 8 (195 views)

Permalink

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:59 AM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
> tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3.
> Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.

Thank you so much for your hard work on this. For better or for worse,
mailing lists are still essential to the wikiverse, and this is a big
step towards making them more approachable (for one thing, by letting
folks post through the web interface).

Warmly,
Erik

_______________________________________________
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