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[Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI
I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.

Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to
Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the
space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources,
but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice
to do as a first change.

As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
characters or 665 words.

How do other projects deal with such cases?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
It would be nice to have a tool for long standing editors to clean up a
newbies talk page for them, leave messages for the overeager templaters,
and help them out / welcome them in untemolsted language.

Then a little ML could go a long way in guessing which newbies are in this
situation and generating a queue for newbie-care. ~~~

????????????????

On Wed., Feb. 19, 2020, 4:35 p.m. Andy Mabbett, <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
>
> Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to
> Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the
> space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources,
> but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice
> to do as a first change.
>
> As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> characters or 665 words.
>
> How do other projects deal with such cases?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
To help with overly "shouty" templates, I did create
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Fae/talk_page_trimmer
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:F%C3%A6/talk_page_trimmer> on
Commons which 'shrinks' long notices on the presumption that noting a
possible "copyright problem" does not need lots of threats because not
everyone is a vandal. The code is open source, it's very stable and anyone
on Commons can opt-in.

A system of "friendly notice alternative bots" which newbies could opt-in
to if they act in good faith and want to take policies seriously could help
to make any project seem less hostile. Anyone that does something like ask
for help at a noticeboard, does not need to be shouted at by torch-wielding
villagers. I recall several newbies fleeing the project after getting just
a couple of very shouty notices and presuming everyone thought they were a
crimmo.

Fae

On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 at 01:50, Samuel Klein <meta.sj@gmail.com> wrote:

> It would be nice to have a tool for long standing editors to clean up a
> newbies talk page for them, leave messages for the overeager templaters,
> and help them out / welcome them in untemolsted language.
>
> Then a little ML could go a long way in guessing which newbies are in this
> situation and generating a queue for newbie-care. ~~~
>
> ????????????????
>
> On Wed., Feb. 19, 2020, 4:35 p.m. Andy Mabbett, <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> > an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> > as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
> >
> > Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to
> > Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the
> > space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources,
> > but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice
> > to do as a first change.
> >
> > As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> > page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> > discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> > characters or 665 words.
> >
> > How do other projects deal with such cases?
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >


--
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 22:35, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.

[...]
>
As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> characters or 665 words.
>

This is a topic that's seldom discussed and somewhat taboo in certain
areas, therefore not many people are aware of what experiences many
newcomers have. These events go generally unnoticed, but if you were
wondering why editor retention is a constant issue, the pattern that lies
behind this single case you brought to our attention is a top reason.

I've tried to help in a similar case of a footballer unknown in
English-speaking countries. She was repeatedly reverted without the edits
being evaluated or the rules being explained. She never returned and I was
frowned upon by the admin, who was involved, for trying to help.

I've noticed this "shoot first, ask later" pattern in many cases, not just
with newcomers. Unfortunately, this is all too common and a contributing
factor to the toxicity.

I've noticed the following issues:
1) The general unwelcoming treatment of newcomers: "noobs" are considered
lacking the proper understanding and necessary knowledge, unless they jump
right into RC patrolling, which is not the sign of a new editor.
2) The lack of protection given to newcomers: "You have no rights" being
explicitly said to one newcomer, that I recall.
3) Preferential treatment and authority bias: the experienced/established
user is "trusted", thus must be right, therefore unwelcoming - and often
hostile - conduct is not considered uncivil or it's "not actionable".
4) The excessively vilifying application of the most frowned-upon rules
such as COI, socking. Editors tagged as such are treated the same
regardless of the effect of their actions and whether that has caused any
damage, which can scale from none to introducing bias to many articles for
years.

Currently, there is no effort to mitigate these issues, to improve the
policies and community practices. It's also a problem that while the
"biting newbies" and "civility" policies are very well written, these are
almost never applied and definitely not in the protection of newcomers. By
that I don't mean these should always result in sanctions, but that the
community - and primarily who get involved with handling disputes - should
take these seriously, approach with a neutral mindset and remind the
editors about our policies, but that almost never happens and such
complaints are either ignored or blindly decided in favor of the editor
with more supporters, enabling the abuse of newcomers.

Tl;dr: newcomers don't enjoy the safety net created by editors who know
and care for each other and the community processes are not set up to
create a welcoming and/or safe environment, this purpose is not manifested
in any kind of endeavors or practices. If the WMF and the movement take the
Mid-Term target of a welcoming environment seriously, that's a difficult,
long-term target that will take a lot of effort.

Aron (Demian)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
As a rule, (at least) in Wikipedia, with very rare exceptions, established
communities of editors treat newbies as unwelcome invaders.
No idea how to solve that, since it's a problem related to the nature of
humane beings, not something technical.
But the result is a very low rate of retention, indeed - and increasingly
reduced diversity and cultural richness, which eventually ends up reflected
on content. At some point those established editors also start preying at
other established editors, specially when newbies are not available. The
environment is awful and toxic in general.

For outreach activities to have at least a minimal rate of success, the
participants need to have some kind of protection shield, such as some
privileged contact with established editors willing to help them.
Otherwise, edithatons and other outreach activities are basically sending
lambs to the slaughterhouse. As for newbies that come to Wikipedia by
themselves, they are generally on their own.

Best,
Paulo

Aron Demian <aronmanning5@gmail.com> escreveu no dia domingo, 23/02/2020
à(s) 23:30:

> On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 22:35, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> > an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> > as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
>
> [...]
> >
> As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> > page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> > discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> > characters or 665 words.
> >
>
> This is a topic that's seldom discussed and somewhat taboo in certain
> areas, therefore not many people are aware of what experiences many
> newcomers have. These events go generally unnoticed, but if you were
> wondering why editor retention is a constant issue, the pattern that lies
> behind this single case you brought to our attention is a top reason.
>
> I've tried to help in a similar case of a footballer unknown in
> English-speaking countries. She was repeatedly reverted without the edits
> being evaluated or the rules being explained. She never returned and I was
> frowned upon by the admin, who was involved, for trying to help.
>
> I've noticed this "shoot first, ask later" pattern in many cases, not just
> with newcomers. Unfortunately, this is all too common and a contributing
> factor to the toxicity.
>
> I've noticed the following issues:
> 1) The general unwelcoming treatment of newcomers: "noobs" are considered
> lacking the proper understanding and necessary knowledge, unless they jump
> right into RC patrolling, which is not the sign of a new editor.
> 2) The lack of protection given to newcomers: "You have no rights" being
> explicitly said to one newcomer, that I recall.
> 3) Preferential treatment and authority bias: the experienced/established
> user is "trusted", thus must be right, therefore unwelcoming - and often
> hostile - conduct is not considered uncivil or it's "not actionable".
> 4) The excessively vilifying application of the most frowned-upon rules
> such as COI, socking. Editors tagged as such are treated the same
> regardless of the effect of their actions and whether that has caused any
> damage, which can scale from none to introducing bias to many articles for
> years.
>
> Currently, there is no effort to mitigate these issues, to improve the
> policies and community practices. It's also a problem that while the
> "biting newbies" and "civility" policies are very well written, these are
> almost never applied and definitely not in the protection of newcomers. By
> that I don't mean these should always result in sanctions, but that the
> community - and primarily who get involved with handling disputes - should
> take these seriously, approach with a neutral mindset and remind the
> editors about our policies, but that almost never happens and such
> complaints are either ignored or blindly decided in favor of the editor
> with more supporters, enabling the abuse of newcomers.
>
> Tl;dr: newcomers don't enjoy the safety net created by editors who know
> and care for each other and the community processes are not set up to
> create a welcoming and/or safe environment, this purpose is not manifested
> in any kind of endeavors or practices. If the WMF and the movement take the
> Mid-Term target of a welcoming environment seriously, that's a difficult,
> long-term target that will take a lot of effort.
>
> Aron (Demian)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
I have a more nuanced view.

The community benefits from new editors who are acting in good faith
and willing to learn.

I agree that treatment of new editors can be problematic.

On the other hand, having become one of the "insiders", I now
understand how English Wikipedia has a limited supply of skilled labor
from volunteers who are trying to defend Wikipedia against vandals,
conflict of interest editors, copyright violations, and other
problems.

There is a WMF team working to improve the onboarding experience. I'm
cc'ing Marshal Miller (WMF) here in case he would like to comment.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
I hope I am one of those "rare exceptions" that Paulo Santos Perneta writes
about. I also wish that welcoming would be neither rare or exceptional.

My habit:

- For newly registered users, which I define as someone with a redlinked
talk page, I welcome them.
- If I am going to revert that user's edit then warn them (via Twinkle
almost always), I want to ensure that they are welcomed first.
- For IP editors:
- If I am reverting an obviously inappropriate edit by an
un-welcomed IP editor, I typically use one of the Twinkle welcome/warning
combos, such as Template:Welcome-anon-test,
Template:Welcome-anon-unconstructive, or Template:Welcome-anon-delete.
- If an un-welcomed IP editor, makes a revertible edit that is
non-malicious, I usually do a Template:Welcome-anon without the article
parameter, then add a warning
- If an un-welcomed IP editor, editor is doing good, I use a
Template:Welcome-anon-constructive

Peaceray

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:58 AM Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a more nuanced view.
>
> The community benefits from new editors who are acting in good faith
> and willing to learn.
>
> I agree that treatment of new editors can be problematic.
>
> On the other hand, having become one of the "insiders", I now
> understand how English Wikipedia has a limited supply of skilled labor
> from volunteers who are trying to defend Wikipedia against vandals,
> conflict of interest editors, copyright violations, and other
> problems.
>
> There is a WMF team working to improve the onboarding experience. I'm
> cc'ing Marshal Miller (WMF) here in case he would like to comment.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).

Vito

Il giorno mer 19 feb 2020 alle ore 22:35 Andy Mabbett <
andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:

> I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
>
> Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to
> Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the
> space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources,
> but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice
> to do as a first change.
>
> As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> characters or 665 words.
>
> How do other projects deal with such cases?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Also, overworked groups with large backlogs struggling to maintain high quality tend to have less patience with the inexperienced and not-yet-competent than we might like. It is also possible that some of the workers in those groups are not as competent as we would like them to be, but at those wages, what can you expect? The work probably also attracts a share of people who get their kicks out of telling other people what they can't do. Again, they are volunteers, we accept their offer to help in good faith until they prove otherwise. The competent and really incompetent are the easy cases. The not quite competent are harder to deal with. Will they get better or worse with experience?
Some competence is required to edit Wikipedia. A suitable personality also helps a lot. However, an enormous amount of work gets done quietly and without fanfare and drama, if one chooses the topic carefully, and edits with discretion and a reasonable level of willingness to cooperate.
Cheers,
Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta
Sent: 25 February 2020 20:03
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI

As a rule, (at least) in Wikipedia, with very rare exceptions, established
communities of editors treat newbies as unwelcome invaders.
No idea how to solve that, since it's a problem related to the nature of
humane beings, not something technical.
But the result is a very low rate of retention, indeed - and increasingly
reduced diversity and cultural richness, which eventually ends up reflected
on content. At some point those established editors also start preying at
other established editors, specially when newbies are not available. The
environment is awful and toxic in general.

For outreach activities to have at least a minimal rate of success, the
participants need to have some kind of protection shield, such as some
privileged contact with established editors willing to help them.
Otherwise, edithatons and other outreach activities are basically sending
lambs to the slaughterhouse. As for newbies that come to Wikipedia by
themselves, they are generally on their own.

Best,
Paulo

Aron Demian <aronmanning5@gmail.com> escreveu no dia domingo, 23/02/2020
à(s) 23:30:

> On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 22:35, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> > an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> > as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
>
> [...]
> >
> As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> > page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> > discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> > characters or 665 words.
> >
>
> This is a topic that's seldom discussed and somewhat taboo in certain
> areas, therefore not many people are aware of what experiences many
> newcomers have. These events go generally unnoticed, but if you were
> wondering why editor retention is a constant issue, the pattern that lies
> behind this single case you brought to our attention is a top reason.
>
> I've tried to help in a similar case of a footballer unknown in
> English-speaking countries. She was repeatedly reverted without the edits
> being evaluated or the rules being explained. She never returned and I was
> frowned upon by the admin, who was involved, for trying to help.
>
> I've noticed this "shoot first, ask later" pattern in many cases, not just
> with newcomers. Unfortunately, this is all too common and a contributing
> factor to the toxicity.
>
> I've noticed the following issues:
> 1) The general unwelcoming treatment of newcomers: "noobs" are considered
> lacking the proper understanding and necessary knowledge, unless they jump
> right into RC patrolling, which is not the sign of a new editor.
> 2) The lack of protection given to newcomers: "You have no rights" being
> explicitly said to one newcomer, that I recall.
> 3) Preferential treatment and authority bias: the experienced/established
> user is "trusted", thus must be right, therefore unwelcoming - and often
> hostile - conduct is not considered uncivil or it's "not actionable".
> 4) The excessively vilifying application of the most frowned-upon rules
> such as COI, socking. Editors tagged as such are treated the same
> regardless of the effect of their actions and whether that has caused any
> damage, which can scale from none to introducing bias to many articles for
> years.
>
> Currently, there is no effort to mitigate these issues, to improve the
> policies and community practices. It's also a problem that while the
> "biting newbies" and "civility" policies are very well written, these are
> almost never applied and definitely not in the protection of newcomers. By
> that I don't mean these should always result in sanctions, but that the
> community - and primarily who get involved with handling disputes - should
> take these seriously, approach with a neutral mindset and remind the
> editors about our policies, but that almost never happens and such
> complaints are either ignored or blindly decided in favor of the editor
> with more supporters, enabling the abuse of newcomers.
>
> Tl;dr: newcomers don't enjoy the safety net created by editors who know
> and care for each other and the community processes are not set up to
> create a welcoming and/or safe environment, this purpose is not manifested
> in any kind of endeavors or practices. If the WMF and the movement take the
> Mid-Term target of a welcoming environment seriously, that's a difficult,
> long-term target that will take a lot of effort.
>
> Aron (Demian)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
I have 15 years experience on the coal face, and now more than 10 years
actively encouraging others to part of that. I come from the time where
the community was growing really fast and templates werent available for
every action, that meant we had to leave personal message explaining what
had taken place. Currently anyone can react at the twinkle of an eye to do
the same thing 100 times in a minute with all the necessary policy links
already there, nothing is written with a personal touch, there is no
measure of encouragement its just a cold machine response even the edit
summary is a cold you've been twinkled upon. We have forgotten to Assume
Good Faith when its appropriate.

Doing outreach, workshops, editathons and other such events we need to step
away from retention being the be all of these events, the aim of these
events is content, connection, and community every edit whether its just
one or one million is to improve and share knowledge. The more we get hung
up on volume the less we value quality and diversity, outreach is building
access to knowledge creating a path for others follow.

Twinkle is great tool in combating vandalism, and spam but its very poor
tool for building community and becomes extremely dangerous when its
applied as a training aid or for contributor there are no workshops, no
outreach, no twinkleathons to teach people how to use it effectively just
log a few edits ask nicely at a notice board and voila you're armed to zap
template where ever, when ever. Twinkle needs to have limits placed on
actions, some review process of those actions - 100 actions in your first
30 days then its disable until some reviews. We could even consider a
limit to its use until a person has gained community trust as an admin, if
person can only whack 100 people a month they are going to consider/value
their decision when they do so, we might see a lot less templates and more
talking.

On the subject of a twinlkeathon, twinlkeshop Wikimania 2020 is looking for
such activities maybe you can help improve its use

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 14:32, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

> Also, overworked groups with large backlogs struggling to maintain high
> quality tend to have less patience with the inexperienced and
> not-yet-competent than we might like. It is also possible that some of the
> workers in those groups are not as competent as we would like them to be,
> but at those wages, what can you expect? The work probably also attracts a
> share of people who get their kicks out of telling other people what they
> can't do. Again, they are volunteers, we accept their offer to help in good
> faith until they prove otherwise. The competent and really incompetent are
> the easy cases. The not quite competent are harder to deal with. Will they
> get better or worse with experience?
> Some competence is required to edit Wikipedia. A suitable personality also
> helps a lot. However, an enormous amount of work gets done quietly and
> without fanfare and drama, if one chooses the topic carefully, and edits
> with discretion and a reasonable level of willingness to cooperate.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta
> Sent: 25 February 2020 20:03
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI
>
> As a rule, (at least) in Wikipedia, with very rare exceptions, established
> communities of editors treat newbies as unwelcome invaders.
> No idea how to solve that, since it's a problem related to the nature of
> humane beings, not something technical.
> But the result is a very low rate of retention, indeed - and increasingly
> reduced diversity and cultural richness, which eventually ends up reflected
> on content. At some point those established editors also start preying at
> other established editors, specially when newbies are not available. The
> environment is awful and toxic in general.
>
> For outreach activities to have at least a minimal rate of success, the
> participants need to have some kind of protection shield, such as some
> privileged contact with established editors willing to help them.
> Otherwise, edithatons and other outreach activities are basically sending
> lambs to the slaughterhouse. As for newbies that come to Wikipedia by
> themselves, they are generally on their own.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> Aron Demian <aronmanning5@gmail.com> escreveu no dia domingo, 23/02/2020
> à(s) 23:30:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 22:35, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> > > an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> > > as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
> >
> > [...]
> > >
> > As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> > > page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> > > discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> > > characters or 665 words.
> > >
> >
> > This is a topic that's seldom discussed and somewhat taboo in certain
> > areas, therefore not many people are aware of what experiences many
> > newcomers have. These events go generally unnoticed, but if you were
> > wondering why editor retention is a constant issue, the pattern that lies
> > behind this single case you brought to our attention is a top reason.
> >
> > I've tried to help in a similar case of a footballer unknown in
> > English-speaking countries. She was repeatedly reverted without the edits
> > being evaluated or the rules being explained. She never returned and I
> was
> > frowned upon by the admin, who was involved, for trying to help.
> >
> > I've noticed this "shoot first, ask later" pattern in many cases, not
> just
> > with newcomers. Unfortunately, this is all too common and a contributing
> > factor to the toxicity.
> >
> > I've noticed the following issues:
> > 1) The general unwelcoming treatment of newcomers: "noobs" are considered
> > lacking the proper understanding and necessary knowledge, unless they
> jump
> > right into RC patrolling, which is not the sign of a new editor.
> > 2) The lack of protection given to newcomers: "You have no rights" being
> > explicitly said to one newcomer, that I recall.
> > 3) Preferential treatment and authority bias: the experienced/established
> > user is "trusted", thus must be right, therefore unwelcoming - and often
> > hostile - conduct is not considered uncivil or it's "not actionable".
> > 4) The excessively vilifying application of the most frowned-upon rules
> > such as COI, socking. Editors tagged as such are treated the same
> > regardless of the effect of their actions and whether that has caused any
> > damage, which can scale from none to introducing bias to many articles
> for
> > years.
> >
> > Currently, there is no effort to mitigate these issues, to improve the
> > policies and community practices. It's also a problem that while the
> > "biting newbies" and "civility" policies are very well written, these are
> > almost never applied and definitely not in the protection of newcomers.
> By
> > that I don't mean these should always result in sanctions, but that the
> > community - and primarily who get involved with handling disputes -
> should
> > take these seriously, approach with a neutral mindset and remind the
> > editors about our policies, but that almost never happens and such
> > complaints are either ignored or blindly decided in favor of the editor
> > with more supporters, enabling the abuse of newcomers.
> >
> > Tl;dr: newcomers don't enjoy the safety net created by editors who know
> > and care for each other and the community processes are not set up to
> > create a welcoming and/or safe environment, this purpose is not
> manifested
> > in any kind of endeavors or practices. If the WMF and the movement take
> the
> > Mid-Term target of a welcoming environment seriously, that's a difficult,
> > long-term target that will take a lot of effort.
> >
> > Aron (Demian)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:36, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).

For you, maybe. Others have already given helpful replies.

My question was generic, and not about the specific case I gave as an example.

I chose not to post links to to the example, both in order to avoid a
pile-on, and to avoid us being distracted by the minutiae of the
incident concerned.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Its an interest aspect of speaking generically to describe any issue that
the demand for links turns a discussion from general to specific that says.
Firstly I dont trust you, I'm not assuming good faith in your reason for
starting the discussion. Then secondly it focus the discussion to one point
ignoring the bigger picture issues, lets not look too deep we because we'll
find some cultural/community failing we cant handle that.



On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 16:59, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:36, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).
>
> For you, maybe. Others have already given helpful replies.
>
> My question was generic, and not about the specific case I gave as an
> example.
>
> I chose not to post links to to the example, both in order to avoid a
> pile-on, and to avoid us being distracted by the minutiae of the
> incident concerned.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
We are a small version that welcome all contributions that enhance
value. So we do not use coi to say no, we only use coi when people enter
biased  statements, or get angry when their contributions gets neutralized.

And we do not use templates in those cases, we do not even have ones, we
only link to our policy for coi, in a sentence.

But i am fully aware that the challenge for enwp is much different and
understand other procedure are used

At the same time i would appreciate if the reality of enwp was not used
to say it represent all communities.

Anders (representing svwp)

Den 2020-02-19 kl. 22:34, skrev Andy Mabbett:
> I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
>
> Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to
> Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the
> space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources,
> but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice
> to do as a first change.
>
> As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> characters or 665 words.
>
> How do other projects deal with such cases?
>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Hello Peaceray,

There are many Wikipedians like you who continuously dedicate themselves to
well receive and help newbies, being absolutely decisive in keeping and
improving the projects health. But I was referring specifically to the core
community, the one which regularly frequent village pumps and generally has
a say in the project politics and community issues - no idea if you
consider yourself to be or not be part of that. My perception is that such
core community is generally hostile to newbies. I have been myself an
active part of that core community in my home wiki pretty much since I
joined 11 years ago, but I remember quite vividly how difficult it was to
become part of that club, facing constant accusations of being a
sockpuppet, accused of knowing too much for a newbie while getting my talk
page carpet-bombed with warnings, accused of lying about my nationality,
enduring childish jokes about my family name, accused of coming there to
disturb what was in peace for years, and whatever. And those were the
golden years, now it's way worst than that.

The basic premise for any activity related to Wikipedia, is that Wikipedia
generally is an hostile environment. Whoever joins the project must be
prepared to face the worst, and then anything good that happens gets to be
a wonderful gain. But the stuff about how fun is to edit Wikipedia is not
true a very significant part of the time. Old rats like me got to know very
well over the years how to avoid trouble and get the thing to be as
pleasant as possible, but the poor rookies, they are generally up to some
troubled times if they really want to stay. Social media such as Telegram,
where newbies can socialize with experts and get help in an easy, friendly
and quick way, are playing a very positive role on that. But the onwiki
situation is pretty much awful.

Best,
Paulo



Raymond Leonard <raymond.f.leonard.jr@gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça,
25/02/2020 à(s) 19:40:

> I hope I am one of those "rare exceptions" that Paulo Santos Perneta writes
> about. I also wish that welcoming would be neither rare or exceptional.
>
> My habit:
>
> - For newly registered users, which I define as someone with a redlinked
> talk page, I welcome them.
> - If I am going to revert that user's edit then warn them (via Twinkle
> almost always), I want to ensure that they are welcomed first.
> - For IP editors:
> - If I am reverting an obviously inappropriate edit by an
> un-welcomed IP editor, I typically use one of the Twinkle
> welcome/warning
> combos, such as Template:Welcome-anon-test,
> Template:Welcome-anon-unconstructive, or
> Template:Welcome-anon-delete.
> - If an un-welcomed IP editor, makes a revertible edit that is
> non-malicious, I usually do a Template:Welcome-anon without the
> article
> parameter, then add a warning
> - If an un-welcomed IP editor, editor is doing good, I use a
> Template:Welcome-anon-constructive
>
> Peaceray
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:58 AM Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a more nuanced view.
> >
> > The community benefits from new editors who are acting in good faith
> > and willing to learn.
> >
> > I agree that treatment of new editors can be problematic.
> >
> > On the other hand, having become one of the "insiders", I now
> > understand how English Wikipedia has a limited supply of skilled labor
> > from volunteers who are trying to defend Wikipedia against vandals,
> > conflict of interest editors, copyright violations, and other
> > problems.
> >
> > There is a WMF team working to improve the onboarding experience. I'm
> > cc'ing Marshal Miller (WMF) here in case he would like to comment.
> >
> > Pine
> > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
I can say that in Italian Wikipedia, in many edit-a-thon that WikiDonne
organized, in time we had often cases where the whole newbie's user page
was deleted immediately, without even warning. Because inside was write for
example "this is a test" or because the page was empty.

Needless to tell you the loss of those who participate in an event and in 5
minutes see the own user page deleted or sometimes even blocked. People who
already enter with lead feet, because complexed by entering and editing in
a community of perfectionists (as we are seen from the outside).

Someone asks for links to demonstrate what is said, but knows that this is
hard work, it means remembering everything and looking for hundreds of
discussions. One should simply remember or put the guideline of good faith
into practice and simply trust. Paulo has right when says that
sometimes *established communities
of editors treat newbies as unwelcome invaders.*

This is not an accusation email to see who is the culprit, but rather a
discussion to see what can be done to improve, since we have a very big
problem of retention and loss of users.

Camelia


--
*Camelia Boban*

*| Java EE Developer |*



*Affiliations Committee - **Wikimedia Foundation*
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<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_Women_Collaboration> | **Wiki
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Il giorno gio 20 feb 2020 alle ore 02:50 Samuel Klein <meta.sj@gmail.com>
ha scritto:

> It would be nice to have a tool for long standing editors to clean up a
> newbies talk page for them, leave messages for the overeager templaters,
> and help them out / welcome them in untemolsted language.
>
> Then a little ML could go a long way in guessing which newbies are in this
> situation and generating a queue for newbie-care. ~~~
>
> ????????????????
>
> On Wed., Feb. 19, 2020, 4:35 p.m. Andy Mabbett, <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> > an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> > as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
> >
> > Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to
> > Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the
> > space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources,
> > but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice
> > to do as a first change.
> >
> > As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> > page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> > discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> > characters or 665 words.
> >
> > How do other projects deal with such cases?
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
In our case the a few volunteers running (organizing) edit-a-thons, met
with a few key persons who patrollers to discuss the dilemma. And so
changes and new variants for the patrollers work were introduced, at the
same time as the introduction to newbees by  volunteers was somewhat
changed.

These small changes helped a lot (but not 100%)

Anders



Den 2020-02-26 kl. 11:33, skrev Camelia Boban:
> This is not an accusation email to see who is the culprit, but rather a
> discussion to see what can be done to improve, since we have a very big
> problem of retention and loss of users.
>
> Camelia
>
>
> --
> *Camelia Boban*
>
> *| Java EE Developer |*
>
>
>
> *Affiliations Committee - **Wikimedia Foundation*
> Diversity WG for Wikimedia Strategy 2030
> *Interwiki Women
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_Women_Collaboration> | **Wiki
> Loves Sport <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Sport> | Wiki Loves
> Fashion <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Fashion>*
> WMIT <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Italia> - WMSE
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Sverige> - WMAR
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Argentina> - WMCH
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH> Member
>
> M. +39 3383385545
> camelia.boban@gmail.com
> *Aissa Technologies* <http://aissatechnologies.eu/>* | *Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/cameliaboban> *|* *LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/camelia-boban-31319122>*
> *Wikipedia <https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Camelia.boban> **| **WikiDonne
> UG <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiDonne>* | *WikiDonne Project
> <https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progetto:WikiDonne> *
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno gio 20 feb 2020 alle ore 02:50 Samuel Klein <meta.sj@gmail.com>
> ha scritto:
>
>> It would be nice to have a tool for long standing editors to clean up a
>> newbies talk page for them, leave messages for the overeager templaters,
>> and help them out / welcome them in untemolsted language.
>>
>> Then a little ML could go a long way in guessing which newbies are in this
>> situation and generating a queue for newbie-care. ~~~
>>
>> ????????????????
>>
>> On Wed., Feb. 19, 2020, 4:35 p.m. Andy Mabbett, <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
>>> an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
>>> as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
>>>
>>> Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to
>>> Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the
>>> space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources,
>>> but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice
>>> to do as a first change.
>>>
>>> As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
>>> page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
>>> discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
>>> characters or 665 words.
>>>
>>> How do other projects deal with such cases?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andy Mabbett
>>> @pigsonthewing
>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Not really, drawing practical advices/lessons (e.g. "differentiate among
kinds of COIs") is the only sensible path towards solving issues.
"Let's be kind" is close to a tautology.

Vito

Il giorno mer 26 feb 2020 alle ore 09:59 Andy Mabbett <
andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:

> On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:36, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).
>
> For you, maybe. Others have already given helpful replies.
>
> My question was generic, and not about the specific case I gave as an
> example.
>
> I chose not to post links to to the example, both in order to avoid a
> pile-on, and to avoid us being distracted by the minutiae of the
> incident concerned.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Thanks for mentioning the WMF Growth team [1], Pine. This is a really
interesting thread that has touched on much of what the team has been
working on alongside the Czech, Korean, Arabic, and Vietnamese Wikipedia
communities (and with the advice of people from many different communities
along the way).

We've tried to base our approach in research on newcomers, which taught us
that newcomers face three main types of challenges: technical, conceptual,
and cultural [2]. For instance, the research tells us that the rules of
the wiki are hard to learn, and that a negative first interaction can cause
a newcomer to leave the wiki and not return -- but that a positive
interaction, such as getting advice from a friendly editor, can cause them
to stay.

Over the last year and a half, we have experimented on mid-size Wikipedias
with features that promote good communication between new and experienced
users [3], that help newcomers teach themselves [4], and that give
newcomers easy tasks to do [5]. The goal is to build an experience for
newcomers that helps them get on a positive track in their first days on
the wiki, and want to stick around to join their communities. It's
possible that what we've learned and built so far will apply differently to
the largest Wikipedias.

I hope that anyone who is interested in newcomers can tell us about their
own experiences and ideas on our team's discussion page [6], or on the
discussion pages of any of our projects. It's very important to us that
the things we build fit in with how communities work today. Over the next
year, we're planning to expand the Growth features to more wikis, so we
definitely want to talk to people who think the features might be a good
fit for their wikis.

To keep informed about the Growth team, please subscribe to our newsletter
[7].

[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth
[2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/New_Editor_Experiences
[3]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_homepage#Mentorship_module
[4] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Focus_on_help_desk
[5]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_tasks
[6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Growth
[7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Newsletters

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:07 AM Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not really, drawing practical advices/lessons (e.g. "differentiate among
> kinds of COIs") is the only sensible path towards solving issues.
> "Let's be kind" is close to a tautology.
>
> Vito
>
> Il giorno mer 26 feb 2020 alle ore 09:59 Andy Mabbett <
> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:
>
> > On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:36, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).
> >
> > For you, maybe. Others have already given helpful replies.
> >
> > My question was generic, and not about the specific case I gave as an
> > example.
> >
> > I chose not to post links to to the example, both in order to avoid a
> > pile-on, and to avoid us being distracted by the minutiae of the
> > incident concerned.
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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--
Marshall Miller
marshall.h.miller@gmail.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
As a quick/rough data point I don't frequently edit wikipedia anymore, and
when I do I never log in.

About 2/3 edits no further interactions happen. About 10% gets reverted,
about 10% of the time I get a warning and the last 10% I get a welcome
template.



On Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 15:52 Marshall Miller <marshall.h.miller@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for mentioning the WMF Growth team [1], Pine. This is a really
> interesting thread that has touched on much of what the team has been
> working on alongside the Czech, Korean, Arabic, and Vietnamese Wikipedia
> communities (and with the advice of people from many different communities
> along the way).
>
> We've tried to base our approach in research on newcomers, which taught us
> that newcomers face three main types of challenges: technical, conceptual,
> and cultural [2]. For instance, the research tells us that the rules of
> the wiki are hard to learn, and that a negative first interaction can cause
> a newcomer to leave the wiki and not return -- but that a positive
> interaction, such as getting advice from a friendly editor, can cause them
> to stay.
>
> Over the last year and a half, we have experimented on mid-size Wikipedias
> with features that promote good communication between new and experienced
> users [3], that help newcomers teach themselves [4], and that give
> newcomers easy tasks to do [5]. The goal is to build an experience for
> newcomers that helps them get on a positive track in their first days on
> the wiki, and want to stick around to join their communities. It's
> possible that what we've learned and built so far will apply differently to
> the largest Wikipedias.
>
> I hope that anyone who is interested in newcomers can tell us about their
> own experiences and ideas on our team's discussion page [6], or on the
> discussion pages of any of our projects. It's very important to us that
> the things we build fit in with how communities work today. Over the next
> year, we're planning to expand the Growth features to more wikis, so we
> definitely want to talk to people who think the features might be a good
> fit for their wikis.
>
> To keep informed about the Growth team, please subscribe to our newsletter
> [7].
>
> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth
> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/New_Editor_Experiences
> [3]
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_homepage#Mentorship_module
> [4] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Focus_on_help_desk
> [5]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_tasks
> [6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Growth
> [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Newsletters
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:07 AM Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Not really, drawing practical advices/lessons (e.g. "differentiate among
> > kinds of COIs") is the only sensible path towards solving issues.
> > "Let's be kind" is close to a tautology.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > Il giorno mer 26 feb 2020 alle ore 09:59 Andy Mabbett <
> > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:
> >
> > > On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:36, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).
> > >
> > > For you, maybe. Others have already given helpful replies.
> > >
> > > My question was generic, and not about the specific case I gave as an
> > > example.
> > >
> > > I chose not to post links to to the example, both in order to avoid a
> > > pile-on, and to avoid us being distracted by the minutiae of the
> > > incident concerned.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy Mabbett
> > > @pigsonthewing
> > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Marshall Miller
> marshall.h.miller@gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Some established users have the habit of reverting every edit by IPs and
newbies in the articles they watch - often with the special reversion tool
- no mater the content and value of the edition. That is a very consistent
behavior I've been observing over more than one decade at the Wikipedia in
Portuguese, and the newbie edit only stays if another established user
notices the reversion, and reverts it back. Meaning: One established user
has to risk potential conflict with those other established users to
reinstate the newbie edition - with the result that many simply staying
away from that and leaving the IP/Newbie to its fate.

It's against the community rules, but pretty much nobody seems to care -
meaning: it's not really against the will of the community.

The general result is a very poor experience for everyone using IPs; and
slightly better (or less bad) for registered newbies, but still quite
hostile.

Best,
Paulo



Martijn Hoekstra <martijnhoekstra@gmail.com> escreveu no dia quinta,
27/02/2020 à(s) 16:41:

> As a quick/rough data point I don't frequently edit wikipedia anymore, and
> when I do I never log in.
>
> About 2/3 edits no further interactions happen. About 10% gets reverted,
> about 10% of the time I get a warning and the last 10% I get a welcome
> template.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 15:52 Marshall Miller <marshall.h.miller@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for mentioning the WMF Growth team [1], Pine. This is a really
> > interesting thread that has touched on much of what the team has been
> > working on alongside the Czech, Korean, Arabic, and Vietnamese Wikipedia
> > communities (and with the advice of people from many different
> communities
> > along the way).
> >
> > We've tried to base our approach in research on newcomers, which taught
> us
> > that newcomers face three main types of challenges: technical,
> conceptual,
> > and cultural [2]. For instance, the research tells us that the rules of
> > the wiki are hard to learn, and that a negative first interaction can
> cause
> > a newcomer to leave the wiki and not return -- but that a positive
> > interaction, such as getting advice from a friendly editor, can cause
> them
> > to stay.
> >
> > Over the last year and a half, we have experimented on mid-size
> Wikipedias
> > with features that promote good communication between new and experienced
> > users [3], that help newcomers teach themselves [4], and that give
> > newcomers easy tasks to do [5]. The goal is to build an experience for
> > newcomers that helps them get on a positive track in their first days on
> > the wiki, and want to stick around to join their communities. It's
> > possible that what we've learned and built so far will apply differently
> to
> > the largest Wikipedias.
> >
> > I hope that anyone who is interested in newcomers can tell us about their
> > own experiences and ideas on our team's discussion page [6], or on the
> > discussion pages of any of our projects. It's very important to us that
> > the things we build fit in with how communities work today. Over the
> next
> > year, we're planning to expand the Growth features to more wikis, so we
> > definitely want to talk to people who think the features might be a good
> > fit for their wikis.
> >
> > To keep informed about the Growth team, please subscribe to our
> newsletter
> > [7].
> >
> > [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth
> > [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/New_Editor_Experiences
> > [3]
> >
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_homepage#Mentorship_module
> > [4] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Focus_on_help_desk
> > [5]
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_tasks
> > [6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Growth
> > [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Newsletters
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:07 AM Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Not really, drawing practical advices/lessons (e.g. "differentiate
> among
> > > kinds of COIs") is the only sensible path towards solving issues.
> > > "Let's be kind" is close to a tautology.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > Il giorno mer 26 feb 2020 alle ore 09:59 Andy Mabbett <
> > > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:36, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).
> > > >
> > > > For you, maybe. Others have already given helpful replies.
> > > >
> > > > My question was generic, and not about the specific case I gave as an
> > > > example.
> > > >
> > > > I chose not to post links to to the example, both in order to avoid a
> > > > pile-on, and to avoid us being distracted by the minutiae of the
> > > > incident concerned.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andy Mabbett
> > > > @pigsonthewing
> > > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Marshall Miller
> > marshall.h.miller@gmail.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
We don't, at least not at community level. At most, we fight for individual
cases which are worth it (e.g. PR people that seem willing to learn). This
got us some half-decent articles about companies.

Pe miercuri, 19 februarie 2020, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> a
scris:

> I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
>
> Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to
> Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the
> space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources,
> but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice
> to do as a first change.
>
> As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> characters or 665 words.
>
> How do other projects deal with such cases?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Perhaps of interest to participants in this discussion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-03-01/Opinion,
titled "Wikipedia is another country", by User:Gog the Mild
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gog_the_Mild).

I'll quote two paragraph of this essay here. (For the license for this
text, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License.)

"Which brings me back to psychological preparedness. I was not
accustomed to being the new member of an established group and the
slow kid at the back of the class at the same time. Relying on the
charity of others to metaphorically tie my shoelaces. It grated. This
was entirely my own, fairly reasonable (I think), issue. Nor was I
prepared for the casual offhandedness which is fairly common. Recently
I suffered a mass revert with the edit summary "Learn some
intellectual property law". This bluntness rankled. It was my issue
rather than the reverting editor's, but that didn't help reduce the
rankle. Since discovering MilHist I have stumbled around in this small
corner of Wikipedia, occasionally bumping into helpful tools which I
endeavour to clutch close.

"The near complete lack of usable guides – IMO – to the basics is
heavily compensated by the, usually, enormous willingness of complete
strangers to spend time and effort correcting my idiocies, reducing my
ignorance and remembering that they too were newbies once. Members of
the Military History Project have collegially made the project a
comfortable place to work in such a natural, even graceful, way that
what they have achieved seems normal."

My guess is that many good novice users quit after encountering
interpersonal, procedural, or technical problems which they don't know
how to resolve, or exceed their tolerances. I think that English
Wikipedia's Teahouse has been successful with addressing some of these
issues, but as Gog the Mild notes, we could do more.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI [ In reply to ]
Sometimes, instead of patrolling recent changes for vandalism, I'll change
the filter to "good faith edits" and "unregistered". A lot of edits made
under IP addresses are constructive, and I send out welcomes that way. I
also check my watchlist and welcome people. I like using the thank button
as well, and give wikilove (to new and experienced editors). I find that
reachng out to a newbie with a personal message along the lines of "you're
doing a good work and I noticed that" is usually fairly well-recieved.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 1:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <paulosperneta@gmail.com>
wrote:

> As a rule, (at least) in Wikipedia, with very rare exceptions, established
> communities of editors treat newbies as unwelcome invaders.
> No idea how to solve that, since it's a problem related to the nature of
> humane beings, not something technical.
> But the result is a very low rate of retention, indeed - and increasingly
> reduced diversity and cultural richness, which eventually ends up reflected
> on content. At some point those established editors also start preying at
> other established editors, specially when newbies are not available. The
> environment is awful and toxic in general.
>
> For outreach activities to have at least a minimal rate of success, the
> participants need to have some kind of protection shield, such as some
> privileged contact with established editors willing to help them.
> Otherwise, edithatons and other outreach activities are basically sending
> lambs to the slaughterhouse. As for newbies that come to Wikipedia by
> themselves, they are generally on their own.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> Aron Demian <aronmanning5@gmail.com> escreveu no dia domingo, 23/02/2020
> à(s) 23:30:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 22:35, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of
> > > an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w
> > > as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
> >
> > [...]
> > >
> > As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk
> > > page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a
> > > discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094
> > > characters or 665 words.
> > >
> >
> > This is a topic that's seldom discussed and somewhat taboo in certain
> > areas, therefore not many people are aware of what experiences many
> > newcomers have. These events go generally unnoticed, but if you were
> > wondering why editor retention is a constant issue, the pattern that lies
> > behind this single case you brought to our attention is a top reason.
> >
> > I've tried to help in a similar case of a footballer unknown in
> > English-speaking countries. She was repeatedly reverted without the edits
> > being evaluated or the rules being explained. She never returned and I
> was
> > frowned upon by the admin, who was involved, for trying to help.
> >
> > I've noticed this "shoot first, ask later" pattern in many cases, not
> just
> > with newcomers. Unfortunately, this is all too common and a contributing
> > factor to the toxicity.
> >
> > I've noticed the following issues:
> > 1) The general unwelcoming treatment of newcomers: "noobs" are considered
> > lacking the proper understanding and necessary knowledge, unless they
> jump
> > right into RC patrolling, which is not the sign of a new editor.
> > 2) The lack of protection given to newcomers: "You have no rights" being
> > explicitly said to one newcomer, that I recall.
> > 3) Preferential treatment and authority bias: the experienced/established
> > user is "trusted", thus must be right, therefore unwelcoming - and often
> > hostile - conduct is not considered uncivil or it's "not actionable".
> > 4) The excessively vilifying application of the most frowned-upon rules
> > such as COI, socking. Editors tagged as such are treated the same
> > regardless of the effect of their actions and whether that has caused any
> > damage, which can scale from none to introducing bias to many articles
> for
> > years.
> >
> > Currently, there is no effort to mitigate these issues, to improve the
> > policies and community practices. It's also a problem that while the
> > "biting newbies" and "civility" policies are very well written, these are
> > almost never applied and definitely not in the protection of newcomers.
> By
> > that I don't mean these should always result in sanctions, but that the
> > community - and primarily who get involved with handling disputes -
> should
> > take these seriously, approach with a neutral mindset and remind the
> > editors about our policies, but that almost never happens and such
> > complaints are either ignored or blindly decided in favor of the editor
> > with more supporters, enabling the abuse of newcomers.
> >
> > Tl;dr: newcomers don't enjoy the safety net created by editors who know
> > and care for each other and the community processes are not set up to
> > create a welcoming and/or safe environment, this purpose is not
> manifested
> > in any kind of endeavors or practices. If the WMF and the movement take
> the
> > Mid-Term target of a welcoming environment seriously, that's a difficult,
> > long-term target that will take a lot of effort.
> >
> > Aron (Demian)
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