Mailing List Archive

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Good point Yaroslav, I agree with you entirely. That is how we who are doing the free work see it. ( I feel reasonably confident that this is a widespread if not universal opinion of neutral editors) The WMF may benefit from our input, but that is not the main point at all. We remain entirely free to vote with our feet. It is up to the board to assess whether net gain or net loss is likely to ensue for each proposal. If they choose options which have a high risk of net loss they fail in their duty. History will judge.
A lot of misconception going on.
Cheers, P

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Yaroslav Blanter
Sent: 24 August 2019 23:15
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

We are not "working for WMF for free". We are actually not working for WMF
at all. This is a completely false premise for any discussion.

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:39 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gerard
>
> A good point. The "community" in one sense is simply the collection of all
> those people who happen over any given time period to be working for the
> WMF for free. In another sense, it is the structures and cultures found on
> the various projects. I think my question could best have been phrased in
> terms of the first meaning -- that is, does the WMF Board expect that after
> these recommendations are enacted, and, as we may reasonably predict, a
> large proportion of the current volunteers cease their invlvement, that
> there will be a sufficient number of continuing and new volunteers to
> sustain the projects in the way the WMF desires. It seems odd that the
> Board would not have even begun to consider this question, but it is of
> course for them and not for us to decide.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 7:10 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of
> > accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that
> > the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter
> > of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation
> > is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the
> > community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the
> electorate
> > has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are
> > not beholden to you nor me.
> >
> > "We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that
> our
> > projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are
> > in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but
> > references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and
> > when.
> >
> > Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your
> opinion
> > nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that
> needs
> > an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is
> best
> > to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change,
> > consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines
> of
> > how we could improve upon them.
> > Thanks
> > GerardM
> >
> > On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Gerard,
> > > It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume
> it
> > > is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and
> some
> > > clarification would be welcome.
> > > English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but
> the
> > > WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the
> > recommendations
> > > of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or
> more
> > > effective.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> > > here!
> > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia
> > > community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct
> > > opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a
> > > sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises
> > made.
> > >
> > > In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then
> as
> > > it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to
> a
> > > point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet
> > > expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe
> > environment,
> > > it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the
> well
> > > fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has
> > taken,
> > > fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.
> > >
> > > So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that
> great
> > > as an abstraction.
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > > On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood <
> > > peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Benjamin,
> > > > Has the board or any member of the board made any statement
> suggesting
> > > > that the board might overrule the community in this matter?
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
> On
> > > > Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta
> > > > Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12
> > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations
> are
> > > > here!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the
> community
> > in
> > > > such a massive way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group
> > > > > position at this point in time.
> > > > >
> > > > > J
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke <
> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> James
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the
> > > > Board's
> > > > >> position on whether it is prepared to see the final
> Recommendations
> > > > >> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Jeff
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> James
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <
> > geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Paulo,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
> > > > community
> > > > >>>> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall
> > that
> > > > >> just
> > > > >>>> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> > > > >>> expressed
> > > > >>>> the opinion
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
> > > > >>>> over
> > > > >>>> a much less dramatic change.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> All of this is going to require change, change that might not
> be
> > > > >>>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part
> > of
> > > > >> this
> > > > >>>> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide
> to
> > > > >> take a
> > > > >>>> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so,
> you
> > > have
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>>> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that
> next
> > > step
> > > > >>> when
> > > > >>>> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that
> you
> > > > will
> > > > >>>> return when the time is right.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Jeff
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > > >>>> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the
> > Wikimedia
> > > > >>>>> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the
> > WGs
> > > > >>> 8and
> > > > >>>>> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> > > > >>> December.
> > > > >>>>> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community
> will
> > > > >> only
> > > > >>> be
> > > > >>>>> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already
> in
> > > the
> > > > >>>>> process of implementation.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if
> the
> > > > >>>> Wikimedia
> > > > >>>>> community does not approve some of the recommendations that
> pass
> > > all
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>>>> way till implementation phase.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Paulo
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia
> quinta,
> > > > >>>>> 22/08/2019
> > > > >>>>> à(s) 11:58:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Dear all,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great
> seeing
> > so
> > > > >>> much
> > > > >>>>>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
> > > > >> building
> > > > >>>> our
> > > > >>>>>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
> > > > >> clarifications.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> DRAFTS
> > > > >>>>>> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
> > > > >> shared
> > > > >>>> are
> > > > >>>>>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete,
> but
> > > > >>>> working
> > > > >>>>>> documents that are currently being refined by the working
> > groups.
> > > > >>> Some
> > > > >>>>>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> > > > >>> development,
> > > > >>>>>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the
> > > next
> > > > >>> few
> > > > >>>>>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> > > > >>>> everyone a
> > > > >>>>>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight
> into
> > > > >>>> multiple
> > > > >>>>>> progress levels.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values,
> priorities
> > > and
> > > > >>>>>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> > > > >>>> recommendation
> > > > >>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>> change the existing license model, for example, will not just
> go
> > > > >>>> through
> > > > >>>>> a
> > > > >>>>>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into
> > the
> > > > >>>>> reasoning
> > > > >>>>>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what
> could
> > > be
> > > > >>>> ways
> > > > >>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest
> to
> > > > >> look
> > > > >>>> into
> > > > >>>>>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included
> in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
> > > > >>> instead
> > > > >>>> of
> > > > >>>>>> rushing to a quick fix.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> INTEGRATION
> > > > >>>>>> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at
> > > Wikimania
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>>>> via
> > > > >>>>>> different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> > > > >>>> iteration
> > > > >>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a
> > basis
> > > > >> for
> > > > >>>>>> harmonization across working groups.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels.
> > Some
> > > > >> of
> > > > >>>> it
> > > > >>>>>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific
> > principles
> > > > >> or
> > > > >>>>>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side
> or
> > > > >>>> already
> > > > >>>>>> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to
> be
> > > > >>>>> considered
> > > > >>>>>> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic
> > > > >> input
> > > > >>>> will
> > > > >>>>>> be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> TIMELINE
> > > > >>>>>> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible
> and
> > > the
> > > > >>>>>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania
> participants
> > > > >> could
> > > > >>>>> read
> > > > >>>>>> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we
> > will
> > > > >> do
> > > > >>>>>> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in
> > > multiple
> > > > >>>>>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall
> > > > >> direction
> > > > >>> of
> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > >>>>>> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are
> > already
> > > > >>>> working
> > > > >>>>>> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare
> > for
> > > > >>>>>> harmonization.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we
> will
> > > > >>> bring
> > > > >>>> 3
> > > > >>>>>> representatives from each Working Group together to work to
> > > > >> develop a
> > > > >>>>> more
> > > > >>>>>> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported
> by
> > > > >>>>>> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We
> > > have
> > > > >>>> also
> > > > >>>>>> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie
> > > > >>> D’Costa
> > > > >>>>>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia
> > > > >> Deutschland)
> > > > >>>> to
> > > > >>>>>> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from
> their
> > > > >> work
> > > > >>>> and
> > > > >>>>>> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active
> > > > >> listeners
> > > > >>>> and
> > > > >>>>>> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and
> > > > >> consequences
> > > > >>> on
> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > >>>>>> organizational and movement level. They also participate as
> the
> > > > >>>>>> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> > > > >>>>>> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
> > > > >>>> anticipate
> > > > >>>>>> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan
> for
> > > > >>>>>> implementation.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and
> > > present
> > > > >>>> them
> > > > >>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need
> the
> > > > >>> legal
> > > > >>>>>> authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while
> > > > >> others
> > > > >>>> will
> > > > >>>>>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> > > > >>> structures
> > > > >>>>> for
> > > > >>>>>> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional
> > > > >> public
> > > > >>>>>> consultation activities around implementation that will be
> > > > >> discussed
> > > > >>>> and
> > > > >>>>>> owned across the movement.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> WORKING GROUPS
> > > > >>>>>> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the
> > process
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>>>>> embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures
> > is
> > > > >>> owned
> > > > >>>>> by
> > > > >>>>>> the community. Members of the nine working group were selected
> > by
> > > a
> > > > >>>>>> steering committee and the groups were established in July
> > > 2019.[2]
> > > > >>>> Group
> > > > >>>>>> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from
> > > > >>> different
> > > > >>>>>> regions and languages, from individual contributors and
> > organized
> > > > >>>> groups,
> > > > >>>>>> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia
> > > > >>>> Foundation
> > > > >>>>>> staff and board.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
> > > > >>>> volunteers,
> > > > >>>>> or
> > > > >>>>>> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the
> draft
> > > > >>>>>> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to
> > form,
> > > > >>> storm
> > > > >>>>> and
> > > > >>>>>> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together
> across
> > > > >> time
> > > > >>>>> zones,
> > > > >>>>>> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the
> > > > >>> substance
> > > > >>>>> and
> > > > >>>>>> identified the scope of their work and the specific questions
> to
> > > > >>> tackle
> > > > >>>>> for
> > > > >>>>>> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The
> > > > >>> development
> > > > >>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>> recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside
> > from
> > > > >>> many
> > > > >>>>>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings
> –
> > > > >>>> included
> > > > >>>>>> incorporating community conversations and external expertise.
> It
> > > is
> > > > >>>> only
> > > > >>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something
> > > > >> tangible
> > > > >>>> in
> > > > >>>>>> front of us that we can all react to and help further improve
> to
> > > > >>> build
> > > > >>>>> our
> > > > >>>>>> future together.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them,
> > > rather
> > > > >>>> than
> > > > >>>>>> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please
> > contribute
> > > > >> in
> > > > >>>>> good
> > > > >>>>>> faith, and in a constructive way.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Let me know if you have further questions.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Best wishes,
> > > > >>>>>> Nicole
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> [1]
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> > > > >>>>>> [2]
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <
> > ymbalt@gmail.com>
> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has
> > been
> > > > >>>>> pointed
> > > > >>>>>>> out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Cheers
> > > > >>>>>>> Yaroslav
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
> > > > >>> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Andy
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > > > >>>>>> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> > > > >>>> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate
> step;
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>>>> one
> > > > >>>>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the
> wider
> > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia
> > > > >>>>>>>>> community.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> That step is not mentioned at
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > > >>>>>>>> ?
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Jeff
> > > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > >>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > > >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > >>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>> Nicole Ebber
> > > > >>>>>> Adviser International Relations
> > > > >>>>>> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963
> > > Berlin
> > > > >>>>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > > > >>>>>> https://wikimedia.de
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen
> der
> > > > >>>>> Menschheit
> > > > >>>>>> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> > > > >>>>>> https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien
> > Wissens
> > > > >> e.
> > > > >>> V.
> > > > >>>>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > > > >> Berlin-Charlottenburg
> > > > >>>>> unter
> > > > >>>>>> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
> > Finanzamt
> > > > >>> für
> > > > >>>>>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Todd,
We can recover from the loss of those admins eventually, but that recovery may be delayed by further blows, and somewhere along the line is the last straw. This may be welcomed by some groups, not so much by others. Otherwise I agree with your point, though do not necessarily agree with the way you express it.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Todd Allen
Sent: 25 August 2019 00:22
To: darekj@alk.edu.pl; Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

Then, let me rephrase, I guess. Why's it seem those people are being
ignored?

When the FRAMBAN occurred, nearly 10% of the English Wikipedia
functionaries resigned. Many have returned, but that's only because WMF
backed off. We lost many of our best to that, and if WMF hadn't swiftly
backed down, they would have stayed gone. And some still have stayed gone
regardless. We won't recover from the damage they inflicted.

I can't see how any lesson can be learned from that except for "Never do
something like that again". But then I can't see how that couldn't have
been learned with VE, or Superprotect, or...any of that. What WMF should've
learned from that is to never pull any hamfisted interference with a local
community again.

Has that lesson, at least, been learned?

Todd

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:07 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <darekj@alk.edu.pl>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:00 PM Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Then, why'd we hear something so dismissive as this?
>>
>
> My intent was not dismissive, but factual (I basically made a point that a
> majority of our communities is not interested in administration,
> organization, structures, etc., so as to address an estimation error in the
> discussion).
>
> 5-10 thousand people are still a large and definitely worth listening to
> group.
>
> best,
>
> dj
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Well then, why aren't you listening?

We've been begging WMF for years to come up with a solution for paid
editing. If you actually put something in the ToU against it, we can get
paid edit requests removed from sites like Upwork, since they will not
allow requests that violate another site's terms of service. But we've been
completely unable to get WMF to do something unequivocal like that, so we
get left to deal with the spam and crapvertising. Wikipedia admins get to
deal with the fallout.

In the meantime, we get a WMF "working group" wanting to not only allow
paid editing, but have WMF do the paying. That is the direct, exact
opposite of what we've been asking for! No paid editing, and certainly no
paid editing from WMF!

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Resource_Allocation/Recommendations/C

Why on Earth are we getting this garbage from WMF "working groups"? Do they
know nothing at all about how the projects work, or do they not care and
are trying to override them?

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:07 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <darekj@alk.edu.pl>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:00 PM Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Then, why'd we hear something so dismissive as this?
>>
>
> My intent was not dismissive, but factual (I basically made a point that a
> majority of our communities is not interested in administration,
> organization, structures, etc., so as to address an estimation error in the
> discussion).
>
> 5-10 thousand people are still a large and definitely worth listening to
> group.
>
> best,
>
> dj
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
The recommendation you link to was about ensuring diversity on decision
making committees, and has this part “We are currently not sure about ‘paid
editing’, and leaning towards not supporting that. ”.

I think it would help the discussion if we did not distort the content of
the recommendations, especially as there may be people who read and engage
with this list who have not had time to study the recommendations (or
indeed the Fram saga cited a number of times earlier).


Best regards,
Bence

Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> (id?pont: 2019. aug. 25., V, 11:44) ezt
írta:

> Well then, why aren't you listening?
>
> We've been begging WMF for years to come up with a solution for paid
> editing. If you actually put something in the ToU against it, we can get
> paid edit requests removed from sites like Upwork, since they will not
> allow requests that violate another site's terms of service. But we've been
> completely unable to get WMF to do something unequivocal like that, so we
> get left to deal with the spam and crapvertising. Wikipedia admins get to
> deal with the fallout.
>
> In the meantime, we get a WMF "working group" wanting to not only allow
> paid editing, but have WMF do the paying. That is the direct, exact
> opposite of what we've been asking for! No paid editing, and certainly no
> paid editing from WMF!
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Resource_Allocation/Recommendations/C
>
> Why on Earth are we getting this garbage from WMF "working groups"? Do they
> know nothing at all about how the projects work, or do they not care and
> are trying to override them?
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:07 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <darekj@alk.edu.pl>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:00 PM Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Then, why'd we hear something so dismissive as this?
> >>
> >
> > My intent was not dismissive, but factual (I basically made a point that
> a
> > majority of our communities is not interested in administration,
> > organization, structures, etc., so as to address an estimation error in
> the
> > discussion).
> >
> > 5-10 thousand people are still a large and definitely worth listening to
> > group.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > dj
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Hi Bence,

I think that this recommendation is ambigous. There is a specific sentence:

"We need to pay or otherwise compensate people to participate"

which can be opened to any interpretation.

I think that this recommendation is quite complicated to be accepted by
the community because it associates the diversity to the privileges and
would justify the paid activities on this basis. Wikimedia projects and
Wikimedia structure has been based always on volunteering time, as soon
it will be open to paid activities, the sense of participation will be
distorted.

Basically, if we would explain to the man of street, why the community
should continue to contribute on volunteering basis if some activities
are paid? The reason that there are unprivileged members is weak in my
opinion.

This is a distortion itself.

On 25/08/2019 12:09, Bence Damokos wrote:
> The recommendation you link to was about ensuring diversity on decision
> making committees, and has this part “We are currently not sure about ‘paid
> editing’, and leaning towards not supporting that. ”.
>
> I think it would help the discussion if we did not distort the content of
> the recommendations, especially as there may be people who read and engage
> with this list who have not had time to study the recommendations (or
> indeed the Fram saga cited a number of times earlier).
>
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
> Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> (id?pont: 2019. aug. 25., V, 11:44) ezt
> írta:
>
>> Well then, why aren't you listening?
>>
>> We've been begging WMF for years to come up with a solution for paid
>> editing. If you actually put something in the ToU against it, we can get
>> paid edit requests removed from sites like Upwork, since they will not
>> allow requests that violate another site's terms of service. But we've been
>> completely unable to get WMF to do something unequivocal like that, so we
>> get left to deal with the spam and crapvertising. Wikipedia admins get to
>> deal with the fallout.
>>
>> In the meantime, we get a WMF "working group" wanting to not only allow
>> paid editing, but have WMF do the paying. That is the direct, exact
>> opposite of what we've been asking for! No paid editing, and certainly no
>> paid editing from WMF!
>>
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Resource_Allocation/Recommendations/C
>>
>> Why on Earth are we getting this garbage from WMF "working groups"? Do they
>> know nothing at all about how the projects work, or do they not care and
>> are trying to override them?
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:07 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <darekj@alk.edu.pl>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:00 PM Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Then, why'd we hear something so dismissive as this?
>>>>
>>> My intent was not dismissive, but factual (I basically made a point that
>> a
>>> majority of our communities is not interested in administration,
>>> organization, structures, etc., so as to address an estimation error in
>> the
>>> discussion).
>>>
>>> 5-10 thousand people are still a large and definitely worth listening to
>>> group.
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>> dj
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario
Skype: valdelli
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
You are right and this is what it should be.

Anyways we must consider that the selection of the working groups
followed more the parameters to select the "representatives" of
Wikimedia than the "representatives" of Wikipedia's communities.

Basically the experience in Wikimedia projects has been quite neglected.

I have a personal feeling that the diversity has been stressed a lot but
neglecting some parameters which are valued by the community and for
this reason the community doesn't feel represented by these members of
the working groups.

The comunity is perceiving these recommendations more likely a vision
lowered from above.

On 24/08/2019 11:44, Aron Manning wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 11:18, Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminikuta@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It's obvious that you, for one, stand with the community.
>>
> Benjamin, this is not a clash between two opposing forces, albeit some
> combative elements try to "divide and conquer", and turn the community into
> two opposing camps.
> The recommendations are about the path we choose for the future, and the
> conversations are your chance to contribute to that vision.
>
> Aron
> _______________________________________________
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--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario
Skype: valdelli
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
There is merit in discussing that recommendation for what it is about
(perhaps in a separate thread or on the Meta talk page), but it was not
about paid editing.


Best regards,
Bence

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019, 13:16 Ilario valdelli, <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Bence,
>
> I think that this recommendation is ambigous. There is a specific sentence:
>
> "We need to pay or otherwise compensate people to participate"
>
> which can be opened to any interpretation.
>
> I think that this recommendation is quite complicated to be accepted by
> the community because it associates the diversity to the privileges and
> would justify the paid activities on this basis. Wikimedia projects and
> Wikimedia structure has been based always on volunteering time, as soon
> it will be open to paid activities, the sense of participation will be
> distorted.
>
> Basically, if we would explain to the man of street, why the community
> should continue to contribute on volunteering basis if some activities
> are paid? The reason that there are unprivileged members is weak in my
> opinion.
>
> This is a distortion itself.
>
> On 25/08/2019 12:09, Bence Damokos wrote:
> > The recommendation you link to was about ensuring diversity on decision
> > making committees, and has this part “We are currently not sure about
> ‘paid
> > editing’, and leaning towards not supporting that. ”.
> >
> > I think it would help the discussion if we did not distort the content of
> > the recommendations, especially as there may be people who read and
> engage
> > with this list who have not had time to study the recommendations (or
> > indeed the Fram saga cited a number of times earlier).
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bence
> >
> > Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> (id?pont: 2019. aug. 25., V, 11:44)
> ezt
> > írta:
> >
> >> Well then, why aren't you listening?
> >>
> >> We've been begging WMF for years to come up with a solution for paid
> >> editing. If you actually put something in the ToU against it, we can get
> >> paid edit requests removed from sites like Upwork, since they will not
> >> allow requests that violate another site's terms of service. But we've
> been
> >> completely unable to get WMF to do something unequivocal like that, so
> we
> >> get left to deal with the spam and crapvertising. Wikipedia admins get
> to
> >> deal with the fallout.
> >>
> >> In the meantime, we get a WMF "working group" wanting to not only allow
> >> paid editing, but have WMF do the paying. That is the direct, exact
> >> opposite of what we've been asking for! No paid editing, and certainly
> no
> >> paid editing from WMF!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Resource_Allocation/Recommendations/C
> >>
> >> Why on Earth are we getting this garbage from WMF "working groups"? Do
> they
> >> know nothing at all about how the projects work, or do they not care and
> >> are trying to override them?
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:07 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <darekj@alk.edu.pl>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:00 PM Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Then, why'd we hear something so dismissive as this?
> >>>>
> >>> My intent was not dismissive, but factual (I basically made a point
> that
> >> a
> >>> majority of our communities is not interested in administration,
> >>> organization, structures, etc., so as to address an estimation error in
> >> the
> >>> discussion).
> >>>
> >>> 5-10 thousand people are still a large and definitely worth listening
> to
> >>> group.
> >>>
> >>> best,
> >>>
> >>> dj
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario
> Skype: valdelli
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Hi Dariusz

in recent years WMF has emphasized the concepts of diversity and equity
that are excellent and desirable but should not forget that Wikipedia
today is what it is thanks to a community that for over 18 years has
supported these projects and that cannot be forgotten from today to
tomorrow.

Many recommendations forget this point and forget that Wikimedia
projects stand on their feet thanks to this experienced group.

Participating in wikimedia projects is done on a voluntary basis, there
are many excellent projects to work with that are out of the wikiverse.

Giving to these volunteers the feeling of not being accepted because
they are male, western, middle-aged and with a good economic position
will only speed up this process.

Kind regards

On 24/08/2019 23:40, Dariusz Jemielniak wrote:
> Well, "the intention of building an encyclopedia based on a neutral point of view achieved by verifiable information attributed to reliable independent sources and disseminated under a free licence" is close to many of us (me including). I think it is quite unlikely that recommendations challenging every single part of that intent, in the understanding of the majority of our community, will go through.
>
> It is my honest belief that the WMF Board of Trustees does not intend to radically reduce the number of volunteers involved.
>
> In any case, I suggest we wait and see how the recommendations shape up anyhow.
>
> best,
>
> dj
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 5:22 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com<mailto:geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Dariusz
>
> It seems very likely that the majority of the 60,000 contributors you mention are there with the intention of building an encyclopaedia based on a neutral point of view achieved by verifiable information attributed to reliable independent sources and disseminated under a free licence. Since there are recommendations that would challenge every single part of that intent, it seems reasonable to assume that some non-trivial proportion of the volunteer workforce will not wish to continue to participate in a project that has so dramatically changed its entire raison d'etre.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________________
> [http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/> prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
> kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital Societies)
> Akademia Leona Ko?mi?skiego
> http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
>
>
>
> Ostatnie artyku?y:
>
> * Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017) Cultural Diversity of Quality of Information on Wikipedias<http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf> Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68: 10. 2460–2470.
> * Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Wikimedia Movement Governance: The Limits of A-Hierarchical Organization<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf> Journal of Organizational Change Management 29: 3. 361-378.
> * Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016) Bridging the Gap Between Wikipedia and Academia<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 67: 7. 1773-1776.
> * Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Breaking the Glass Ceiling on Wikipedia<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist Review 113: 1. 103-108.
> * Tadeusz Che?kowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of Contributor’s Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects<http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF>, PLoS ONE 11: 4. e0152976.
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--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
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Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Payment "in kind" is still a form of payment. Now, if it's just talking
about expense reimbursement, I'm okay with that (so long as such
reimbursement is done uniformly rather than just for certain people), but
as far as I know that's already been done for a long time.

But it's still bothersome that, despite the fact that we have begged the
WMF for years to come up with a solution to the issue of paid editing, not
one of these recommendations addresses that. "Diversity", while certainly a
noble goal, cannot be the only goal. Our strategy should primarily focus on
the issues we have right now, today, and I do not see one single one of
these recommendations addressing paid editing, one of the primary scourges
we currently face, in any way whatsoever, and one that would at least
arguably make it worse.

Todd

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:09 AM Bence Damokos <bdamokos@gmail.com> wrote:

> The recommendation you link to was about ensuring diversity on decision
> making committees, and has this part “We are currently not sure about ‘paid
> editing’, and leaning towards not supporting that. ”.
>
> I think it would help the discussion if we did not distort the content of
> the recommendations, especially as there may be people who read and engage
> with this list who have not had time to study the recommendations (or
> indeed the Fram saga cited a number of times earlier).
>
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
> Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> (id?pont: 2019. aug. 25., V, 11:44) ezt
> írta:
>
> > Well then, why aren't you listening?
> >
> > We've been begging WMF for years to come up with a solution for paid
> > editing. If you actually put something in the ToU against it, we can get
> > paid edit requests removed from sites like Upwork, since they will not
> > allow requests that violate another site's terms of service. But we've
> been
> > completely unable to get WMF to do something unequivocal like that, so we
> > get left to deal with the spam and crapvertising. Wikipedia admins get to
> > deal with the fallout.
> >
> > In the meantime, we get a WMF "working group" wanting to not only allow
> > paid editing, but have WMF do the paying. That is the direct, exact
> > opposite of what we've been asking for! No paid editing, and certainly no
> > paid editing from WMF!
> >
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Resource_Allocation/Recommendations/C
> >
> > Why on Earth are we getting this garbage from WMF "working groups"? Do
> they
> > know nothing at all about how the projects work, or do they not care and
> > are trying to override them?
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:07 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <darekj@alk.edu.pl>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:00 PM Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Then, why'd we hear something so dismissive as this?
> > >>
> > >
> > > My intent was not dismissive, but factual (I basically made a point
> that
> > a
> > > majority of our communities is not interested in administration,
> > > organization, structures, etc., so as to address an estimation error in
> > the
> > > discussion).
> > >
> > > 5-10 thousand people are still a large and definitely worth listening
> to
> > > group.
> > >
> > > best,
> > >
> > > dj
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> -- Bence Damokos Sent from Gmail Mobile
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 10:42, Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well then, why aren't you listening?

You appear to be addressing an individual. Your top-posting does not
make the addressee clear.

> We've been begging WMF for years to come up with a solution for paid
> editing. If you actually put something in the ToU against it,

What, like this?

https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use/en#4._Refraining_from_Certain_Activities

it was added in June 2014.

> we can get paid edit requests removed from sites like Upwork,

How's that going, since June 2014?

> In the meantime, we get a WMF "working group" wanting to not only allow
> paid editing, but have WMF do the paying.

> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Resource_Allocation/Recommendations/C

That page says:

"The solutions we are exploring (tentative recommendations) are:

"Payment for ‘necessary services’ to ensure equity in who is able to spend
their time being a Wikimedian. We’re thinking about Boards, and other
'functionary' roles (Fund committees, etc.) that require special privilege
access to data/tools, and have a 'term' for their role in which they are
considered to be on duty (e.g. 2 years), and for which they are personally
responsible. We are currently not sure about ‘paid editing’, and leaning
towards not supporting that. Perhaps this will be decided at a
local level,
e.g. via the Regional Hubs."

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Gerard, Katherine and Wikimedians,

Am wondering if the Wikimedia Foundation is in Google for NonProfits which
is holding an online training for managing volunteers on September 10th -
https://events.withgoogle.com/google-for-nonprofits-live-stream-series/.

(WUaS is in Google for Nonprofits and is attending this).

Scott
Scott_WUaS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Scott_WorldUnivAndSch


On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:48 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Research on the acquisition of new volunteers shows that most new people
> drop out because of perceived hostility. This excercise of formulating a
> strategy for 2030 aims to address this among other objectives. It follows
> that when new volunteers that stick is an important objective, the status
> quo cannot be maintained. When people threaten to leave because the status
> quo, their power base is threatened, they are welcome to take a leave of
> absence and as Jan-Bart said in them days we hope they will reconsider.
>
> Mind you, I am not a fan-boy of the new strategy. I was in Stockholm and I
> made several points where I think the strategy fails.
>
> The problem that I have with "advocates for the community" is that like
> lawyers they do not necessarily self include and certainly take no
> responsiblity. Their point would be more clear when they say "I will leave
> our community because... ". Our community will be better off when some bad
> apples but "pillars of the community" leave. Our community would be better
> off when we argue in stead of state opinions. Let's be on point and to the
> point.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 22:39, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Gerard
> >
> > A good point. The "community" in one sense is simply the collection of
> all
> > those people who happen over any given time period to be working for the
> > WMF for free. In another sense, it is the structures and cultures found
> on
> > the various projects. I think my question could best have been phrased
> in
> > terms of the first meaning -- that is, does the WMF Board expect that
> after
> > these recommendations are enacted, and, as we may reasonably predict, a
> > large proportion of the current volunteers cease their invlvement, that
> > there will be a sufficient number of continuing and new volunteers to
> > sustain the projects in the way the WMF desires. It seems odd that the
> > Board would not have even begun to consider this question, but it is of
> > course for them and not for us to decide.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 7:10 PM Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of
> > > accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion
> that
> > > the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the
> arbiter
> > > of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia
> Foundation
> > > is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the
> > > community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the
> > electorate
> > > has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they
> are
> > > not beholden to you nor me.
> > >
> > > "We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that
> > our
> > > projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they
> are
> > > in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but
> > > references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where
> and
> > > when.
> > >
> > > Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your
> > opinion
> > > nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that
> > needs
> > > an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is
> > best
> > > to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change,
> > > consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines
> > of
> > > how we could improve upon them.
> > > Thanks
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > > On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood <
> > > peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Gerard,
> > > > It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume
> > it
> > > > is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and
> > some
> > > > clarification would be welcome.
> > > > English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but
> > the
> > > > WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the
> > > recommendations
> > > > of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or
> > more
> > > > effective.
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
> On
> > > > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM
> > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations
> are
> > > > here!
> > > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the
> Wikimedia
> > > > community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many
> distinct
> > > > opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there
> is a
> > > > sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises
> > > made.
> > > >
> > > > In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense
> then
> > as
> > > > it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up
> to
> > a
> > > > point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet
> > > > expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe
> > > environment,
> > > > it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the
> > well
> > > > fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has
> > > taken,
> > > > fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.
> > > >
> > > > So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that
> > great
> > > > as an abstraction.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood <
> > > > peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Benjamin,
> > > > > Has the board or any member of the board made any statement
> > suggesting
> > > > > that the board might overrule the community in this matter?
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
> > On
> > > > > Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta
> > > > > Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12
> > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations
> > are
> > > > > here!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the
> > community
> > > in
> > > > > such a massive way.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a
> group
> > > > > > position at this point in time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > J
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke <
> > geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> James
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify
> the
> > > > > Board's
> > > > > >> position on whether it is prepared to see the final
> > Recommendations
> > > > > >> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Jeff
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman <
> jmh649@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> James
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <
> > > geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Paulo,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
> > > > > community
> > > > > >>>> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall
> > > that
> > > > > >> just
> > > > > >>>> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF
> Board,
> > > > > >>> expressed
> > > > > >>>> the opinion
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
> > > > > >>>> over
> > > > > >>>> a much less dramatic change.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>> All of this is going to require change, change that might not
> > be
> > > > > >>>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a
> part
> > > of
> > > > > >> this
> > > > > >>>> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you
> decide
> > to
> > > > > >> take a
> > > > > >>>> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so,
> > you
> > > > have
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >>>> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that
> > next
> > > > step
> > > > > >>> when
> > > > > >>>> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that
> > you
> > > > > will
> > > > > >>>> return when the time is right.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Jeff
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > > > >>>> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > > >>>>> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by
> the
> > > WGs
> > > > > >>> 8and
> > > > > >>>>> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT
> around
> > > > > >>> December.
> > > > > >>>>> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community
> > will
> > > > > >> only
> > > > > >>> be
> > > > > >>>>> dealing with those recommendations again when they are
> already
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> process of implementation.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if
> > the
> > > > > >>>> Wikimedia
> > > > > >>>>> community does not approve some of the recommendations that
> > pass
> > > > all
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>>> way till implementation phase.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Paulo
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia
> > quinta,
> > > > > >>>>> 22/08/2019
> > > > > >>>>> à(s) 11:58:
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Dear all,
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great
> > seeing
> > > so
> > > > > >>> much
> > > > > >>>>>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
> > > > > >> building
> > > > > >>>> our
> > > > > >>>>>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
> > > > > >> clarifications.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> DRAFTS
> > > > > >>>>>> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we
> recently
> > > > > >> shared
> > > > > >>>> are
> > > > > >>>>>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete,
> > but
> > > > > >>>> working
> > > > > >>>>>> documents that are currently being refined by the working
> > > groups.
> > > > > >>> Some
> > > > > >>>>>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> > > > > >>> development,
> > > > > >>>>>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over
> the
> > > > next
> > > > > >>> few
> > > > > >>>>>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to
> give
> > > > > >>>> everyone a
> > > > > >>>>>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight
> > into
> > > > > >>>> multiple
> > > > > >>>>>> progress levels.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values,
> > priorities
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> > > > > >>>> recommendation
> > > > > >>>>> to
> > > > > >>>>>> change the existing license model, for example, will not
> just
> > go
> > > > > >>>> through
> > > > > >>>>> a
> > > > > >>>>>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration
> into
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>> reasoning
> > > > > >>>>>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what
> > could
> > > > be
> > > > > >>>> ways
> > > > > >>>>> to
> > > > > >>>>>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest
> > to
> > > > > >> look
> > > > > >>>> into
> > > > > >>>>>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is
> included
> > in
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further
> consultation,
> > > > > >>> instead
> > > > > >>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>> rushing to a quick fix.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> INTEGRATION
> > > > > >>>>>> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at
> > > > Wikimania
> > > > > >>> and
> > > > > >>>>> via
> > > > > >>>>>> different movement channels and incorporating it into the
> next
> > > > > >>>> iteration
> > > > > >>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a
> > > basis
> > > > > >> for
> > > > > >>>>>> harmonization across working groups.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> The input that we are gathering comes in on different
> levels.
> > > Some
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >>>> it
> > > > > >>>>>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific
> > > principles
> > > > > >> or
> > > > > >>>>>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic
> side
> > or
> > > > > >>>> already
> > > > > >>>>>> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to
> > be
> > > > > >>>>> considered
> > > > > >>>>>> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations.
> Programmatic
> > > > > >> input
> > > > > >>>> will
> > > > > >>>>>> be documented and taken forward to inform the
> implementation.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> TIMELINE
> > > > > >>>>>> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania
> > participants
> > > > > >> could
> > > > > >>>>> read
> > > > > >>>>>> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we
> > > will
> > > > > >> do
> > > > > >>>>>> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in
> > > > multiple
> > > > > >>>>>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall
> > > > > >> direction
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are
> > > already
> > > > > >>>> working
> > > > > >>>>>> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to
> prepare
> > > for
> > > > > >>>>>> harmonization.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we
> > will
> > > > > >>> bring
> > > > > >>>> 3
> > > > > >>>>>> representatives from each Working Group together to work to
> > > > > >> develop a
> > > > > >>>>> more
> > > > > >>>>>> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported
> > by
> > > > > >>>>>> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team.
> We
> > > > have
> > > > > >>>> also
> > > > > >>>>>> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley,
> Valerie
> > > > > >>> D’Costa
> > > > > >>>>>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia
> > > > > >> Deutschland)
> > > > > >>>> to
> > > > > >>>>>> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from
> > their
> > > > > >> work
> > > > > >>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active
> > > > > >> listeners
> > > > > >>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and
> > > > > >> consequences
> > > > > >>> on
> > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>> organizational and movement level. They also participate as
> > the
> > > > > >>>>>> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> > > > > >>>>>> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they
> can
> > > > > >>>> anticipate
> > > > > >>>>>> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan
> > for
> > > > > >>>>>> implementation.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and
> > > > present
> > > > > >>>> them
> > > > > >>>>> to
> > > > > >>>>>> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need
> > the
> > > > > >>> legal
> > > > > >>>>>> authority of the board for some of the recommendations,
> while
> > > > > >> others
> > > > > >>>> will
> > > > > >>>>>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> > > > > >>> structures
> > > > > >>>>> for
> > > > > >>>>>> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be
> additional
> > > > > >> public
> > > > > >>>>>> consultation activities around implementation that will be
> > > > > >> discussed
> > > > > >>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>> owned across the movement.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> WORKING GROUPS
> > > > > >>>>>> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the
> > > process
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>>>>> embarks to make significant changes to our movement
> structures
> > > is
> > > > > >>> owned
> > > > > >>>>> by
> > > > > >>>>>> the community. Members of the nine working group were
> selected
> > > by
> > > > a
> > > > > >>>>>> steering committee and the groups were established in July
> > > > 2019.[2]
> > > > > >>>> Group
> > > > > >>>>>> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from
> > > > > >>> different
> > > > > >>>>>> regions and languages, from individual contributors and
> > > organized
> > > > > >>>> groups,
> > > > > >>>>>> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl.
> Wikimedia
> > > > > >>>> Foundation
> > > > > >>>>>> staff and board.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
> > > > > >>>> volunteers,
> > > > > >>>>> or
> > > > > >>>>>> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the
> > draft
> > > > > >>>>>> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to
> > > form,
> > > > > >>> storm
> > > > > >>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together
> > across
> > > > > >> time
> > > > > >>>>> zones,
> > > > > >>>>>> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the
> > > > > >>> substance
> > > > > >>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>> identified the scope of their work and the specific
> questions
> > to
> > > > > >>> tackle
> > > > > >>>>> for
> > > > > >>>>>> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The
> > > > > >>> development
> > > > > >>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>> recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside
> > > from
> > > > > >>> many
> > > > > >>>>>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person
> meetings
> > –
> > > > > >>>> included
> > > > > >>>>>> incorporating community conversations and external
> expertise.
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > > >>>> only
> > > > > >>>>> to
> > > > > >>>>>> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something
> > > > > >> tangible
> > > > > >>>> in
> > > > > >>>>>> front of us that we can all react to and help further
> improve
> > to
> > > > > >>> build
> > > > > >>>>> our
> > > > > >>>>>> future together.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them,
> > > > rather
> > > > > >>>> than
> > > > > >>>>>> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please
> > > contribute
> > > > > >> in
> > > > > >>>>> good
> > > > > >>>>>> faith, and in a constructive way.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Let me know if you have further questions.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Best wishes,
> > > > > >>>>>> Nicole
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> [1]
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> > > > > >>>>>> [2]
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <
> > > ymbalt@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> And this is the core problem of the whole process (which
> has
> > > been
> > > > > >>>>> pointed
> > > > > >>>>>>> out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> Cheers
> > > > > >>>>>>> Yaroslav
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
> > > > > >>> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Andy
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > > > > >>>>>> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> > > > > >>>> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of
> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate
> > step;
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>>> one
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the
> > wider
> > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> community.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> That step is not mentioned at
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > > > >>>>>>>> ?
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Jeff
> > > > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > and
> > > > > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > >>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > > > >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > >>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > >>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > >>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > >>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > > > >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > >>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > > >>>>>> Nicole Ebber
> > > > > >>>>>> Adviser International Relations
> > > > > >>>>>> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963
> > > > Berlin
> > > > > >>>>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > > > > >>>>>> https://wikimedia.de
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen
> > der
> > > > > >>>>> Menschheit
> > > > > >>>>>> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns
> dabei!
> > > > > >>>>>> https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien
> > > Wissens
> > > > > >> e.
> > > > > >>> V.
> > > > > >>>>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > > > > >> Berlin-Charlottenburg
> > > > > >>>>> unter
> > > > > >>>>>> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
> > > Finanzamt
> > > > > >>> für
> > > > > >>>>>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > > >>>>>> Unsubscribe:
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> > > > > >>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > >>>> _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> --
> > > > > >>> James Heilman
> > > > > >>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > > > https://www.avg.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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--

--
- Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
- https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch
- World University and School
- http://worlduniversityandschool.org
- http://scottmacleod.com

- CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric
CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
It's now over a month since the appended exchange, when I suggested
that the answer "All change has negative connotations to some members
of the community", to the question "Could this Recommendation [to, in
part, allow material with NC and ND licences] have a negative
impact/change?" be rewritten to actually reflect the proposal's real
and significant risks.

I've just checked, and it's unchanged.


On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 17:52, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 16:51, Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> wrote:
>
> > This is a
> > process for all of us to shape our shared future, together; let’s keep
> > engaging and challenging one another in this same spirit.
>
> Perhaps it would also be in keeping with that spirit for this:
>
> Q4a. Could this Recommendation have a negative impact/change?
>
> All change has negative connotations to some members of the community
>
> to be re-written, to actually reflect the proposal's real and significant risks?
>
> As it stands, I do not find it to be "solution-oriented", nor
> indicative of "due review and reflection", nor "in the spirit of
> collegial collaboration", and I do not think anyone could plausibly
> argue that it is any of those things.



--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
The section remains unchanged. Is anyone planning to update it?

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 14:29, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:48, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > >
> > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
> > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider Wikimedia
> > > community.
> > >
> >
> > That step is not mentioned at
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place?
>
> But it is alluded to further down that page, albeit with an apparent
> assumption that the recommendations will (all) be implemented:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_are_the_steps_that_will_take_place_between_recommendations_being_published_and_implementation?
>
> In the light of Nicole's recent - and reassuring - email:
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-August/093303.html
>
> perhaps that section could be updated to reflect that:
>
> "[recommendations not needing the legal authority of the board] will
> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> structures for approval or further consultation."
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk



--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Hi Andy,

Working groups are currently working off-wiki on a new version that will
soon be submitted to discussion again. Current versions are indeed not
being updated (I think they are not meant to be).
If you want to reach out directly to the diversity working group, I suggest
using their mailing list : wg2030-diversity@wikimedia.org

Best,
Diane
(community strategy liaison for the french speaking community)

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Garanti
sans virus. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:28 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> The section remains unchanged. Is anyone planning to update it?
>
> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 14:29, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:48, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > >
> > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
> > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> Wikimedia
> > > > community.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That step is not mentioned at
> > >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> ?
> >
> > But it is alluded to further down that page, albeit with an apparent
> > assumption that the recommendations will (all) be implemented:
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_are_the_steps_that_will_take_place_between_recommendations_being_published_and_implementation
> ?
> >
> > In the light of Nicole's recent - and reassuring - email:
> >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-August/093303.html
> >
> > perhaps that section could be updated to reflect that:
> >
> > "[recommendations not needing the legal authority of the board] will
> > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> > structures for approval or further consultation."
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 at 14:19, Diane Ranville
<dranville-ctr@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:28 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_are_the_steps_that_will_take_place_between_recommendations_being_published_and_implementation

> > > perhaps that section could be updated to reflect that:

> > The section remains unchanged. Is anyone planning to update it?

> Working groups are currently working off-wiki on a new version that will
> soon be submitted to discussion again. Current versions are indeed not
> being updated (I think they are not meant to be).

Thank you, but in the email to which you replied, I was referring not
to a WG recommendation, but to the FAQ (URL above), which is clearly
at odds with the process as stated in Nicole's email.

I shall look forward to reviewing the revised recommendations.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Hi Diane,

If there will be a new discussion (and rightly so), what happens to the
"harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September" mentioned by Nicole in
her messages?
I don't believe there will be much to harmonize between the new discussion
with the community takes place.

Best,
Paulo


Diane Ranville <dranville-ctr@wikimedia.org> escreveu no dia sexta,
13/09/2019 à(s) 14:20:

> Hi Andy,
>
> Working groups are currently working off-wiki on a new version that will
> soon be submitted to discussion again. Current versions are indeed not
> being updated (I think they are not meant to be).
> If you want to reach out directly to the diversity working group, I suggest
> using their mailing list : wg2030-diversity@wikimedia.org
>
> Best,
> Diane
> (community strategy liaison for the french speaking community)
>
> <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >
> Garanti
> sans virus. www.avast.com
> <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:28 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > The section remains unchanged. Is anyone planning to update it?
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 14:29, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:48, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > >
> > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the
> one
> > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> > Wikimedia
> > > > > community.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That step is not mentioned at
> > > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > ?
> > >
> > > But it is alluded to further down that page, albeit with an apparent
> > > assumption that the recommendations will (all) be implemented:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_are_the_steps_that_will_take_place_between_recommendations_being_published_and_implementation
> > ?
> > >
> > > In the light of Nicole's recent - and reassuring - email:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-August/093303.html
> > >
> > > perhaps that section could be updated to reflect that:
> > >
> > > "[recommendations not needing the legal authority of the board] will
> > > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> > > structures for approval or further consultation."
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy Mabbett
> > > @pigsonthewing
> > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Also, "use the mailing list" is a problem in itself. Discussion should be
taking place publicly and on-wiki, not via email. Lack of transparency in
this process is a serious problem, and it is exacerbated by trying to push
discussions to a private medium. Discussions should take place openly and
in public.

Todd

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 6:38 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Diane,
>
> If there will be a new discussion (and rightly so), what happens to the
> "harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September" mentioned by Nicole in
> her messages?
> I don't believe there will be much to harmonize between the new discussion
> with the community takes place.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
> Diane Ranville <dranville-ctr@wikimedia.org> escreveu no dia sexta,
> 13/09/2019 à(s) 14:20:
>
> > Hi Andy,
> >
> > Working groups are currently working off-wiki on a new version that will
> > soon be submitted to discussion again. Current versions are indeed not
> > being updated (I think they are not meant to be).
> > If you want to reach out directly to the diversity working group, I
> suggest
> > using their mailing list : wg2030-diversity@wikimedia.org
> >
> > Best,
> > Diane
> > (community strategy liaison for the french speaking community)
> >
> > <
> >
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > >
> > Garanti
> > sans virus. www.avast.com
> > <
> >
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > >
> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:28 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The section remains unchanged. Is anyone planning to update it?
> > >
> > > On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 14:29, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:48, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the
> > one
> > > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > community.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That step is not mentioned at
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > ?
> > > >
> > > > But it is alluded to further down that page, albeit with an apparent
> > > > assumption that the recommendations will (all) be implemented:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_are_the_steps_that_will_take_place_between_recommendations_being_published_and_implementation
> > > ?
> > > >
> > > > In the light of Nicole's recent - and reassuring - email:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-August/093303.html
> > > >
> > > > perhaps that section could be updated to reflect that:
> > > >
> > > > "[recommendations not needing the legal authority of the board]
> will
> > > > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> > > > structures for approval or further consultation."
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andy Mabbett
> > > > @pigsonthewing
> > > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy Mabbett
> > > @pigsonthewing
> > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Could we have a formal RfC already, please?



> On Sep 13, 2019, at 6:02 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also, "use the mailing list" is a problem in itself. Discussion should be
> taking place publicly and on-wiki, not via email. Lack of transparency in
> this process is a serious problem, and it is exacerbated by trying to push
> discussions to a private medium. Discussions should take place openly and
> in public.
>
> Todd
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 6:38 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Diane,
>>
>> If there will be a new discussion (and rightly so), what happens to the
>> "harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September" mentioned by Nicole in
>> her messages?
>> I don't believe there will be much to harmonize between the new discussion
>> with the community takes place.
>>
>> Best,
>> Paulo
>>
>>
>> Diane Ranville <dranville-ctr@wikimedia.org> escreveu no dia sexta,
>> 13/09/2019 à(s) 14:20:
>>
>>> Hi Andy,
>>>
>>> Working groups are currently working off-wiki on a new version that will
>>> soon be submitted to discussion again. Current versions are indeed not
>>> being updated (I think they are not meant to be).
>>> If you want to reach out directly to the diversity working group, I
>> suggest
>>> using their mailing list : wg2030-diversity@wikimedia.org
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Diane
>>> (community strategy liaison for the french speaking community)
>>>
>>> <
>>>
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>>>>
>>> Garanti
>>> sans virus. www.avast.com
>>> <
>>>
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>>>>
>>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:28 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The section remains unchanged. Is anyone planning to update it?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 14:29, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:48, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
>>>> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
>> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
>>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the
>>> one
>>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
>>>> Wikimedia
>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That step is not mentioned at
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
>>>> ?
>>>>>
>>>>> But it is alluded to further down that page, albeit with an apparent
>>>>> assumption that the recommendations will (all) be implemented:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_are_the_steps_that_will_take_place_between_recommendations_being_published_and_implementation
>>>> ?
>>>>>
>>>>> In the light of Nicole's recent - and reassuring - email:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-August/093303.html
>>>>>
>>>>> perhaps that section could be updated to reflect that:
>>>>>
>>>>> "[recommendations not needing the legal authority of the board]
>> will
>>>>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
>>>>> structures for approval or further consultation."
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andy Mabbett
>>>>> @pigsonthewing
>>>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Andy Mabbett
>>>> @pigsonthewing
>>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! [ In reply to ]
Hi Paulo,

As far as I know, the new discussion will happen *after* the harmonization
sprint, and will be about the new set of recommendations that comes out of
it.

Best,
Diane

On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 7:25 AM Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminikuta@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> Could we have a formal RfC already, please?
>
>
>
> > On Sep 13, 2019, at 6:02 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Also, "use the mailing list" is a problem in itself. Discussion should be
> > taking place publicly and on-wiki, not via email. Lack of transparency in
> > this process is a serious problem, and it is exacerbated by trying to
> push
> > discussions to a private medium. Discussions should take place openly and
> > in public.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 6:38 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Diane,
> >>
> >> If there will be a new discussion (and rightly so), what happens to the
> >> "harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September" mentioned by Nicole
> in
> >> her messages?
> >> I don't believe there will be much to harmonize between the new
> discussion
> >> with the community takes place.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Paulo
> >>
> >>
> >> Diane Ranville <dranville-ctr@wikimedia.org> escreveu no dia sexta,
> >> 13/09/2019 à(s) 14:20:
> >>
> >>> Hi Andy,
> >>>
> >>> Working groups are currently working off-wiki on a new version that
> will
> >>> soon be submitted to discussion again. Current versions are indeed not
> >>> being updated (I think they are not meant to be).
> >>> If you want to reach out directly to the diversity working group, I
> >> suggest
> >>> using their mailing list : wg2030-diversity@wikimedia.org
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Diane
> >>> (community strategy liaison for the french speaking community)
> >>>
> >>> <
> >>>
> >>
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >>>>
> >>> Garanti
> >>> sans virus. www.avast.com
> >>> <
> >>>
> >>
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >>>>
> >>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:28 PM Andy Mabbett <
> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The section remains unchanged. Is anyone planning to update it?
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 14:29, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:48, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> >>>> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> >> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> >>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the
> >>> one
> >>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> >>>> Wikimedia
> >>>>>>> community.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That step is not mentioned at
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> >>>> ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But it is alluded to further down that page, albeit with an apparent
> >>>>> assumption that the recommendations will (all) be implemented:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_are_the_steps_that_will_take_place_between_recommendations_being_published_and_implementation
> >>>> ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the light of Nicole's recent - and reassuring - email:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-August/093303.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> perhaps that section could be updated to reflect that:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "[recommendations not needing the legal authority of the board]
> >> will
> >>>>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> >>>>> structures for approval or further consultation."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Andy Mabbett
> >>>>> @pigsonthewing
> >>>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andy Mabbett
> >>>> @pigsonthewing
> >>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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