Mailing List Archive

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.

If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
matter.

Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>

On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this
> IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
>
> > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging
> > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> >
> > Happy new year,
> >
> > Pine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
There are a lot of SUL issues that are waiting to be addressed. One for example is the definition of what is not "appropriate" as a name. Another one is a centralized interface for preferences, a third one is a centralized management of key user information, a forth one is the possibility to disactivate crosswiki ping services so you can manage them only when you want to... and so on... one reasonable thing you can ask is that the message is not inserted in the talk of people with no edits, for example. Or that the welcome messages are progressively standardized, with a clear layout for the message that can be declined with the users' language preferences when they are declared. Sure, there is no point in linking me again to the five pillar, but a link to some key pages might still be useful.
In any case I cannot think of it as really important, and it is to me less important than other issues related to the SUL interface.
Right in these days one of my friends that I registered years ago or that was already registered (in any case a very minor contributor, with only a superficial involvement on wiki platforms) received one of this welcome message in one "non-western language". He/She found it funny.
I probably have very tolerant friends... good for me! But so far I still feel that this is a problem only for a small fraction on  mid-term and long-term users than for the rest of the world. I believe that if you make an extensive research these messages might have no effect (especially if left by bot), they probably have some effect if they are part of a human interaction, and there is a minority who will disagree with them strongly. Based on the human interactions and experiences in my life at the workplace, I kinda suspect that for many of these people this could be also their general attitude in other fields.
Don't get me wrong, I am concerned by the abuse of psychometric and personal data on modern internet platform, I'll do whatever I could to prevent it that's why I really don't understand why these messages given by an open and linear process are such a big deal per se. To me it's like overthinking something quite superficial and that's unfortunately rarely in the interest of taking care of the real big deal, such as e.g. your personal metadata being sold to big conglomerates without your "active permission". So are my friends, and, surprise surpirse, they don't care about these welcome messages too.

Il Mercoledì 24 Gennaio 2018 4:41, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> ha scritto:


FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.

If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
matter.

Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>

On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this
> IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
>
> > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging
> > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> >
> > Happy new year,
> >
> > Pine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in
the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual
all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
staff have a lot on their plate.

This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable.
A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure
you can understand Pine.

Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
behalf and let them do their jobs.

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

> FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this
> matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be
> others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
>
> If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
> if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> matter.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this
> > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> pinging
> > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > >
> > > Happy new year,
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>



--
Seddon

*Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
*Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
If it has been discussed before, then it would be nice if someone can
provide a pointer to that discussion.

Den ons. 24. jan. 2018, 11.29 skrev Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>:

> This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in
> the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual
> all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> staff have a lot on their plate.
>
> This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable.
> A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure
> you can understand Pine.
>
> Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> behalf and let them do their jobs.
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> this
> > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may
> be
> > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> >
> > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
> > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > matter.
> >
> > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> this
> > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > pinging
> > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > >
> > > > Happy new year,
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Seddon
>
> *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
Joe,

I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
days.

For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
something that the RfC would attempt to measure.

In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
cooperation if necessary and if possible.

John,

A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.

Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
wrote:

> This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in
> the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual
> all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> staff have a lot on their plate.
>
> This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable.
> A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure
> you can understand Pine.
>
> Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> behalf and let them do their jobs.
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> this
> > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may
> be
> > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> >
> > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
> > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > matter.
> >
> > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> this
> > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > pinging
> > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > >
> > > > Happy new year,
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Seddon
>
> *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
The information is so noisy (transclusions may trigger autocreation) and
irrelevant (no information about pages, just wikis) I don't see an issue
worth resolving.

Vito

2018-01-25 22:54 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> Joe,
>
> I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
> on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
> days.
>
> For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
> that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
>
> In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
> I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
> problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> cooperation if necessary and if possible.
>
> John,
>
> A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
> Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> in
> > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> annual
> > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > staff have a lot on their plate.
> >
> > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> acceptable.
> > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> sure
> > you can understand Pine.
> >
> > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> > this
> > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> may
> > be
> > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > >
> > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
> or
> > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> > this
> > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > pinging
> > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
> unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Seddon
> >
> > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use
of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.

The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account.
This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie
exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not
intended and not acceptable.

I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real
contributors, that would be pretty simple

Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> Joe,
>
> I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
> on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
> days.
>
> For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
> that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
>
> In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
> I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
> problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> cooperation if necessary and if possible.
>
> John,
>
> A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
> Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> in
> > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> annual
> > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > staff have a lot on their plate.
> >
> > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> acceptable.
> > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> sure
> > you can understand Pine.
> >
> > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> > this
> > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> may
> > be
> > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > >
> > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
> or
> > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> > this
> > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > pinging
> > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Seddon
> >
> > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that the information of visiting a site exists and it is public. 
So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do thishttps://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&target=Alexmar983
and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of the things I implicitly agree when I make an account?
The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data.
Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.

Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> ha scritto:


I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use
of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.

The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account.
This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie
exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not
intended and not acceptable.

I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real
contributors, that would be pretty simple

Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> Joe,
>
> I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
> on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
> days.
>
> For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
> that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
>
> In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
> I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
> problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> cooperation if necessary and if possible.
>
> John,
>
> A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
> Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> in
> > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> annual
> > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > staff have a lot on their plate.
> >
> > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> acceptable.
> > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> sure
> > you can understand Pine.
> >
> > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> > this
> > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> may
> > be
> > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > >
> > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
> or
> > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> > this
> > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > pinging
> > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Seddon
> >
> > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
Fine! If people refuse the easy way out, then create an Rfc, and start the
process to make creation of new user accounts non-public information.

Den fre. 26. jan. 2018, 03.04 skrev Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>:

> you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot
> itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public
> information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human
> being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain
> wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes
> immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot
> tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that
> the information of visiting a site exists and it is public.
> So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do
> thishttps://
> commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&target=Alexmar983
> and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on
> fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the
> first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system
> having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not
> even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge
> of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of
> the things I implicitly agree when I make an account?
> The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable
> with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem
> and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user
> look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right
> or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it
> probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in
> their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about
> it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is
> not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL
> information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I
> should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data.
> Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now
> imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody
> really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their
> provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is
> "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not
> public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they
> receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first
> time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.
>
> Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com>
> ha scritto:
>
>
> I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use
> of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.
>
> The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account.
> This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie
> exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not
> intended and not acceptable.
>
> I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real
> contributors, that would be pretty simple
>
> Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first
> raised
> > on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> > issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> > privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> > should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> > statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> > task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> > situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed
> within
> > days.
> >
> > For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> > encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> > establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> > involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> > Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations
> and
> > that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> > something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
> >
> > In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure,
> and
> > I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there
> are
> > problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> > address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> > cooperation if necessary and if possible.
> >
> > John,
> >
> > A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from
> WMF
> > Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> > The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> > discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> > resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> > conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> > way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> > I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
> >
> > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break
> following
> > > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> > in
> > > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> > annual
> > > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > > staff have a lot on their plate.
> > >
> > > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> > acceptable.
> > > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> > sure
> > > you can understand Pine.
> > >
> > > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on
> our
> > > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation
> about
> > > this
> > > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> > may
> > > be
> > > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > > >
> > > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is
> satisfactory,
> > or
> > > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about
> this
> > > > matter.
> > > >
> > > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of
> "unblock
> > > this
> > > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vito
> > > > >
> > > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > > pinging
> > > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Seddon
> > >
> > > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki [ In reply to ]
i think many people might not understand what is the real problem here with this aspect in the general framework. I might make a brutal simplification, of course.
In any case, if you manage to make the moment when a logged-in user is connected to a platform for the first time a secret, that basically do not have a big impact on anything most of the people do, so I can probably tell you to go on. What would be the effect? The info will disappear from the SUL table or something like that. Whatever.
But I guess, cynically, that a "non-solution" of "don't use the bot" is much more fitting for the "social ecosystem" and the way it evolves on wiki platforms. This way you did not address a higher level aspect of the issue, you remove the global feeling of alert down a notch and you can act in any case as if you did something in that direction. Also, it makes no solid precedent when future real privacy problem are discussed. 
That's why asking to remove the info completely, from my point of view, it's even slightly better.  At least next time we discuss privacy in other matter I have a strong precedent case to cite. I mean... if people make a fuzz about this, I expect they really care about other things. I could ping all the favorable to such information removal one by one in a future RfC.
Alex

Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 3:37, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> ha scritto:


Fine! If people refuse the easy way out, then create an Rfc, and start the process to make creation of new user accounts non-public information.
Den fre. 26. jan. 2018, 03.04 skrev Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>:

you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that the information of visiting a site exists and it is public. 
So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do thishttps://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&target=Alexmar983
and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of the things I implicitly agree when I make an account?
The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data.
Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.

    Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> ha scritto:


 I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use
of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.

The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account.
This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie
exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not
intended and not acceptable.

I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real
contributors, that would be pretty simple

Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> Joe,
>
> I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
> on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
> days.
>
> For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
> that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
>
> In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
> I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
> problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> cooperation if necessary and if possible.
>
> John,
>
> A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
> Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> in
> > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> annual
> > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > staff have a lot on their plate.
> >
> > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> acceptable.
> > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> sure
> > you can understand Pine.
> >
> > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> > this
> > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> may
> > be
> > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > >
> > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
> or
> > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> > this
> > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > pinging
> > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Seddon
> >
> > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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