Mailing List Archive

Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
running issue?

On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:
> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>
> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> arwiki.
>
> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> _______________________________________________
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I am not sure this is something we should be discussing on this mailing
list. Please, contact the bot operator or raise it with the arwiki
community.

Regards,

Isaac.

On Dec 29, 2017 10:26 AM, "K. Peachey" <p858snake@gmail.com> wrote:

> Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
> Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
> Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
> running issue?
>
> On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> > arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
> at
> > that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> > can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> >
> > I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> > accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> > arwiki.
> >
> > Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Some reactions to welcome bot or welcomes are a little bit "exaggerated" sometimes. it's just a small red color spot in a corner. Two seconds to process it, more time to complain about it.
I study user activities and sometimes I leave welcome messages here and there. 99.5% of the time is because they have some sort of activities on the platform. it happened to me one or two times per year that some users deleted a welcome message I have left here or there. A scenario that occurred more than once is wikidata and old-term users that have some issues with the fact that even if they don't want to be part to it, they do have edits indirectly on such platform. Sometimes they spent more time writing in the object why they are deleting it that simply ignoring it. 
I stick to the fact that with "side" platforms 95% of the users don't care, 4% reply interested or thank for the welcome or similar, and 1% (or less) have issues. Such 1% are mostly long term or established users. In the general framework, I think that leaving such templates from real users to people with some activities is potentially useful, at least to establish a connection.
I also have no direct experience of anyone complaining about bot messages on other "side" platforms, I know about users discovering less "common" wiki such as some of the "Asian" ones, but they are kinda amused. Such bot welcome message arrives when you do something to log in, such as opening one of their articles for example. Or maybe you use a computer when someone else have opened them recently.
We can write a meta policy to leave welcome message only with people with edits, but in the end someone could point out that informing people before they do anything if they actually entered the platform is a good strategy (why wait they have to do something? maybe they need help). On some wiki you get the message as soon as you log in, for example frwiki if I remember with a test from a friend. Why is that different?
The core issue is to be sure that the welcome message has a part in one or two main world languages, and a link to the embassy page. That's the occasion to make it smarter not to remove it totally, we have the expertise to do that. For example you leave the en-N welcome message to people who have edits on enwikipedia and so on. 

Alessandro




Il Venerdì 29 Dicembre 2017 10:27, K. Peachey <p858snake@gmail.com> ha scritto:


Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
running issue?

On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:
> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>
> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> arwiki.
>
> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

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I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of
these languages I cannot even copypaste from.
While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be
bothered of them.

Vito

2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey <p858snake@gmail.com>:

> Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
> Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
> Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
> running issue?
>
> On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> > arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
> at
> > that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> > can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> >
> > I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> > accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> > arwiki.
> >
> > Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Link on my email.

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:25 AM, K. Peachey <p858snake@gmail.com> wrote:

> Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
> Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
> Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
> running issue?
>
> On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> > arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
> at
> > that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> > can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> >
> > I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> > accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> > arwiki.
> >
> > Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
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I've usually just don't bother with them, but lately I got complaints about
this specific bot, and the bot operator neglect doing anything with the
problem. That is why I raise the issue, as there are no other forum where
users from one project can make a complaint about misbehaving users on
another project.

Given the response from the bot operator I would say I don't have a good
feeling about this "welcome" at all. It is like those scam emails where you
are greeted in full name. It is creepy…

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of
> these languages I cannot even copypaste from.
> While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be
> bothered of them.
>
> Vito
>
> 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey <p858snake@gmail.com>:
>
> > Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
> > Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
> > Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
> > running issue?
> >
> > On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> > > arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
> > at
> > > that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
> but I
> > > can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> > >
> > > I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> > > accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions
> at
> > > arwiki.
> > >
> > > Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
> > >
> > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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Looping in the Arabic Wikipedia mailing list.

FYI

Samir Elsharbaty
Communications|Wikimedia Foundation


On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 5:02 AM, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've usually just don't bother with them, but lately I got complaints about
> this specific bot, and the bot operator neglect doing anything with the
> problem. That is why I raise the issue, as there are no other forum where
> users from one project can make a complaint about misbehaving users on
> another project.
>
> Given the response from the bot operator I would say I don't have a good
> feeling about this "welcome" at all. It is like those scam emails where you
> are greeted in full name. It is creepy…
>
> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of
> > these languages I cannot even copypaste from.
> > While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be
> > bothered of them.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey <p858snake@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
> > > Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
> > > Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
> > > running issue?
> > >
> > > On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> > > > arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no
> activity
> > > at
> > > > that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
> > but I
> > > > can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> > > >
> > > > I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> > > > accounts from central login and not users that has local
> contributions
> > at
> > > > arwiki.
> > > >
> > > > Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_
> messages
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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I cannot see malicious intention behind the use of the bot. If you don't
feel spoken to, just ignore it. Why is this a so huge problem?


Greetings

Ting


Am 29.12.2017 um 10:20 schrieb John Erling Blad:
> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>
> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> arwiki.
>
> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.

The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.

Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
the template?

Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
nicely.

To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
* How many people actually read these messages?
* Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
* Could some be removed? Could some be added?
* Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
* Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
* How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
have an account auto-created?

And so on.

Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
serve, and how could this purpose be served better.

Happy New Year :)

?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John Erling Blad" <jeblad@gmail.com> ???:

> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>
> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> arwiki.
>
> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Hello Amir,


I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask
such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such
questions with my customers.


But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions
are not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask
questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these
pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very
interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about
if the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom
to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake
hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view
these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially
dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk
to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to talk
about and make it behind us?


And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own
way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a
utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture
encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded
in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project
community.


This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how
every community handles this is their own thing.


Greetings

Ting



Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
>
> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
>
> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> the template?
>
> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
> nicely.
>
> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> * How many people actually read these messages?
> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
> have an account auto-created?
>
> And so on.
>
> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
>
> Happy New Year :)
>
> ?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John Erling Blad" <jeblad@gmail.com> ???:
>
>> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
>> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
>> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
>> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>>
>> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
>> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
>> arwiki.
>>
>> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>>
>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Hi Ting, You make a fair point about culture, but the impression I got is that the welcomes were being sent to people who were not intentionally editing the arwiki, or aware that they were doing so, which makes this a cultural thing imposed on people who were not aware of it or expecting it, and who did not have a way to avoid it even if they had known it might happen, which is a bit beyond local culture. For myself I am not bothered by messages from other Wikis, even if I can't read them. I am used to it, but some people are more paranoid than me, sometimes for good reasons. Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ting Chen
Sent: 30 December 2017 11:38
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

Hello Amir,


I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with my customers.


But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it behind us?


And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project community.


This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every community handles this is their own thing.


Greetings

Ting



Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
>
> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
>
> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> the template?
>
> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
> nicely.
>
> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> * How many people actually read these messages?
> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
> have an account auto-created?
>
> And so on.
>
> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
>
> Happy New Year :)
>
> ?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John Erling Blad" <jeblad@gmail.com> ???:
>
>> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
>> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
>> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
>> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>>
>> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
>> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
>> arwiki.
>>
>> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>>
>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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What are the good reason to be poaranoid? The only reason I ever heard is "is making me waste time", usually expressed wasting more time.
BTW, after years of SUL most of the old time users have received a lot of welcome messages and they receive usually two new ones per year, no more in my experience. I made some test with newbies and it does not see more different, when they one open some wikis they might receive a message  (and if they are not used to other culture, that does not happen a lot of time, I suppose) . 
I can think of dozens of things in my life that spam me more, and make me more "paranoid". Yesterday I search a stupid thing and I found a related ad in my youtube after 5 minutes, I told on a chat app that I had the flue and I got a flu treatment opening a web page... spent more time being irritated by these facts, this might have a good impact on everybody's life. 
For wikimedia, just ask to add a link to a meta page where is written down which messages are received via bot simply after log in, so it is super transparent how it works and you learn how the build up of the SUL log in works. Put a link to CentralAuth too.


Il Sabato 30 Dicembre 2017 11:28, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> ha scritto:


Hi Ting, You make a fair point about culture, but the impression I got is that the welcomes were being sent to people who were not intentionally editing the arwiki, or aware that they were doing so, which makes this a cultural thing imposed on people who were not aware of it or expecting it, and who did not have a way to avoid it even if they had known it might happen, which is a bit beyond local culture. For myself I am not bothered by messages from other Wikis, even if I can't read them. I am used to it, but some people are more paranoid than me, sometimes for good reasons. Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ting Chen
Sent: 30 December 2017 11:38
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

Hello Amir,


I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with my customers.


But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it behind us?


And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project community.


This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every community handles this is their own thing.


Greetings

Ting



Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
>
> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
>
> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> the template?
>
> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
> nicely.
>
> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> * How many people actually read these messages?
> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
> have an account auto-created?
>
> And so on.
>
> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
>
> Happy New Year :)
>
> ?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John Erling Blad" <jeblad@gmail.com> ???:
>
>> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
>> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
>> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
>> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>>
>> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
>> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
>> arwiki.
>>
>> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>>
>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Oh, I absolutely agree that there is an important cultural aspect here.
That's why towards the end of the email I acknowledged that this has been
done for many years.

Nevertheless, it's worth occasionally stopping and thinking about the
usefulness. These messages are supposed to be sent to new users, but the
culture we're talking about is the culture of new users; and at the same
time, we're often saying that many new users have a hard time getting into
Wikipedia. So the welcome templates may—or may not—be part of this problem.
This is just one example of a question worth asking.

?????? 30 ????? 2017 11:38,? "Ting Chen" <wing.philopp@gmx.de> ???:

> Hello Amir,
>
>
> I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such
> questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions
> with my customers.
>
>
> But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are
> not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions
> that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure
> utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very
> interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if
> the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do
> so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands,
> nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these
> behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous for
> our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do we
> not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it behind
> us?
>
>
> And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own
> way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a
> utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture
> encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in
> and there is culture that was created and developed by the project
> community.
>
>
> This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how
> every community handles this is their own thing.
>
>
> Greetings
>
> Ting
>
>
>
> Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
>
>> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
>>
>> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
>> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
>>
>> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
>> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
>> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
>> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
>> the template?
>>
>> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does
>> it
>> nicely.
>>
>> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
>> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
>> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
>> * How many people actually read these messages?
>> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
>> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
>> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
>> reused
>> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
>> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
>> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
>> and
>> have an account auto-created?
>>
>> And so on.
>>
>> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade,
>> but
>> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
>> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
>>
>> Happy New Year :)
>>
>> ?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John Erling Blad" <jeblad@gmail.com> ???:
>>
>> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
>>> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
>>> at
>>> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
>>> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>>>
>>> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
>>> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
>>> arwiki.
>>>
>>> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>>>
>>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Hi Amir,

It isn't too late to ask about the utility of welcome messages, but be aware that there are reasons for their evolution over the last decade. Your email almost implied that this has been an unreviewed area for the last decade.

There was some research a few years ago that concluded that welcomed editors were more likely to stay, despite many welcomes being of the "welcome your article has been tagged for deletion" variety. If someone fancies digging further it would be good to compare welcomed and unwelcomed editors among the 75% of newbies who edit existing articles and also among the 25% or whatever is left of that who come here to create new articles.

I think that now would be a good time to develop tailored welcomes for mobile and V/E newbies. I'm conscious that the Welcome I usually use assumes that newbies who do good edits are using the classic editor and contributing with something bigger than a tablet. So sometimes I leave newbies unwelcomed rather than give them a potentially confusing welcome.

As for getting a welcome message from a wiki where I have visited but not edited, I consider that a privacy violation. We normally claim not to log anything about our readers, but if a logged in Wikimedian visits arwiki a log is created artificially by issuing them a welcome. It isn't a Privacy violation that especially irks me personally, but if we allow it we should change the global privacy statements accordingly.

Regards

Jonathan


> On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:38, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:29:34 +0200
> From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki
> Message-ID:
> <CACtNa8vKK+7tnLh=4VKBmvX4WOaHD3QvGc2N+Cui-br8VQg4sQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
>
> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
>
> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if
> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> the template?
>
> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it
> nicely.
>
> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless
> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> * How many people actually read these messages?
> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
> have an account auto-created?
>
> And so on.
>
> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but
> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they
> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
>
> Happy New Year :)
>
> ?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John E

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As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a
negative factor.

Jeblad

Den lør. 30. des. 2017, 16.58 skrev Jonathan Cardy <
werespielchequers@gmail.com>:

> Hi Amir,
>
> It isn't too late to ask about the utility of welcome messages, but be
> aware that there are reasons for their evolution over the last decade. Your
> email almost implied that this has been an unreviewed area for the last
> decade.
>
> There was some research a few years ago that concluded that welcomed
> editors were more likely to stay, despite many welcomes being of the
> "welcome your article has been tagged for deletion" variety. If someone
> fancies digging further it would be good to compare welcomed and
> unwelcomed editors among the 75% of newbies who edit existing articles and
> also among the 25% or whatever is left of that who come here to create new
> articles.
>
> I think that now would be a good time to develop tailored welcomes for
> mobile and V/E newbies. I'm conscious that the Welcome I usually use
> assumes that newbies who do good edits are using the classic editor and
> contributing with something bigger than a tablet. So sometimes I leave
> newbies unwelcomed rather than give them a potentially confusing welcome.
>
> As for getting a welcome message from a wiki where I have visited but not
> edited, I consider that a privacy violation. We normally claim not to log
> anything about our readers, but if a logged in Wikimedian visits arwiki a
> log is created artificially by issuing them a welcome. It isn't a Privacy
> violation that especially irks me personally, but if we allow it we should
> change the global privacy statements accordingly.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> > On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:38, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:29:34 +0200
> > From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki
> > Message-ID:
> > <CACtNa8vKK+7tnLh=4VKBmvX4WOaHD3QvGc2N+Cui-br8VQg4sQ@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
> >
> > The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> > feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
> >
> > Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> > The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but
> if
> > it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually
> > automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> > the template?
> >
> > Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does
> it
> > nicely.
> >
> > To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> > actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's
> nevertheless
> > an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> > * How many people actually read these messages?
> > * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> > * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> > * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
> reused
> > across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> > * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> > * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
> and
> > have an account auto-created?
> >
> > And so on.
> >
> > Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade,
> but
> > it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do
> they
> > serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
> >
> > Happy New Year :)
> >
> > ?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John E
>
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Norwegians in general does not use welcoming phrases unless you are family,
close friend, or want something from a person. Or as friend said it; you
welcome your sister and mother to the family party, the guy that shall buy
your old rusty car, and your girlfriend when she comes over and you want to
have sex with her.

Jevlad

lør. 30. des. 2017, 13.00 skrev Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:

> Oh, I absolutely agree that there is an important cultural aspect here.
> That's why towards the end of the email I acknowledged that this has been
> done for many years.
>
> Nevertheless, it's worth occasionally stopping and thinking about the
> usefulness. These messages are supposed to be sent to new users, but the
> culture we're talking about is the culture of new users; and at the same
> time, we're often saying that many new users have a hard time getting into
> Wikipedia. So the welcome templates may—or may not—be part of this problem.
> This is just one example of a question worth asking.
>
> ?????? 30 ????? 2017 11:38,? "Ting Chen" <wing.philopp@gmx.de> ???:
>
> > Hello Amir,
> >
> >
> > I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask
> such
> > questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions
> > with my customers.
> >
> >
> > But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions
> are
> > not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions
> > that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure
> > utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very
> > interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about
> if
> > the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do
> > so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands,
> > nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these
> > behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous
> for
> > our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do
> we
> > not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it
> behind
> > us?
> >
> >
> > And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own
> > way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a
> > utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture
> > encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in
> > and there is culture that was created and developed by the project
> > community.
> >
> >
> > This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how
> > every community handles this is their own thing.
> >
> >
> > Greetings
> >
> > Ting
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
> >
> >> It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
> >>
> >> The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing
> >> feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
> >>
> >> Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them?
> >> The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but
> if
> >> it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot
> actually
> >> automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of
> >> the template?
> >>
> >> Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does
> >> it
> >> nicely.
> >>
> >> To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users
> >> actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's
> nevertheless
> >> an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
> >> * How many people actually read these messages?
> >> * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
> >> * Could some be removed? Could some be added?
> >> * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
> >> reused
> >> across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
> >> * Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
> >> * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
> >> and
> >> have an account auto-created?
> >>
> >> And so on.
> >>
> >> Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade,
> >> but
> >> it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do
> they
> >> serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
> >>
> >> Happy New Year :)
> >>
> >> ?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John Erling Blad" <jeblad@gmail.com> ???:
> >>
> >> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> >>> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
> >>> at
> >>> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
> but I
> >>> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> >>>
> >>> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> >>> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions
> at
> >>> arwiki.
> >>>
> >>> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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There are many million users registered in central auth. Most have not
edited anywhere, and never even visited ar.wikipedia.org. welcoming these
is actually harmful in a demonstrable way: readers will be notified of this
useless welcome by email, or the notification tool. If this were
multiplied across our

On 29 Dec 2017 10:20, "Vi to" <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of
> these languages I cannot even copypaste from.
> While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be
> bothered of them.
>
> Vito
>
> 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey <p858snake@gmail.com>:
>
> > Have you asked the user how the finding the users?
> > Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list?
> > Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long
> > running issue?
> >
> > On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> > > arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
> > at
> > > that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
> but I
> > > can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
> > >
> > > I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> > > accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions
> at
> > > arwiki.
> > >
> > > Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
> > >
> > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:
> As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a
> negative factor.
>

The results from past research are Not easy to summarize, and
definitely not that simple, because of all the varying factors in both
the templates and the research projects.
E.g. message-length/-linkcount/-tone/-formatting (all of which slowly
change over the years), the reason/timing for receiving a welcome
(account-creation, first-edit, random edit, time-after-event), whether
anything else was communicated around the same time (e.g. additional
warning templates) on the same page or elsewhere, whether the welcome
was personalized at all, what username it was signed with (a human
name in my language, a funny avatar name, a generic bot-name, etc),
etc -- all of which can be different (subtly or significantly) at
every project and every instance).
Some relevant links include:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_editor_welcome_wishlist#Results_and_discussion
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_A/B_testing/Results#Welcome_messages
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Rhetoric_of_the_welcome_message
but there are many more formal and informal attempts to understand and
improve it all (from Enwiki's Teahouse initiatives, to all the
scattered multilingual template_talk and wikiproject discussions (from
Q6137590, to all the topic-specific wikiprojects)).

TL;DR: Onboarding is complicated.
Many people are helped by welcome messages.
Many welcome messages are (or were) imperfect (too
long/dense/formal/informal/irrelevant/technical/etc).
I do not know if there is any specific research that focuses purely on
the timing (whether it is best to send at account-creation, after
first-edit, after human-review of an edit, whilst the user is
logged-in or offline, etc), but I agree it might be useful.

Here are some of the other research projects that look at welcome
templates as one of the factors, but not the primary focus,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_user_help_requests/Full_report
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Ignored_period_and_retention
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Framing_Support_for_Newcomers
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Alternative_lifecycles_of_new_users

Lastly, regarding the specific instance of Arwiki
- it's better than nothing, because some people will Not edit until
given some encouragement, and some people like to read the rules
before they start something.
- It would be good if the bot could distinguish between
accounts-made-locally (i.e. likely to be able to read Arabic) vs
accounts-attached-via-Single-User-Login (and to only send those latter
accounts a welcome message, after they've made 1 edit locally). I
don't know if that is currently possible or feasible.

Quiddity

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What Quiddity said.

If we're talking about impact on (good faith) new editors, yes, it's
complicated but the bulk of the evidence points to certain kinds of
welcomes[1][2] being effective at driving retention (every little bit
helps), and others having no effect at all, and maybe a few approaches
actively turning some people off. Has something to do with the form of the
welcome (giant walls of links are probably not very helpful, and may be
intimidating), the purpose of the welcome (is this a general "hey there" or
an invitation to read or participate in something that might be useful
and/or engaging to the intended recipient?) and the timing of the welcome
(new editors give up quickly; often the welcome or offer of support comes
too late).

If we're talking about the impact on experienced editors who have never
edited on that particular wiki... I've received these kinds of messages on
wikis I haven't edited, but viewed while logged in. I don't see the problem
here from a spam standpoint. Calling this harm may be a stretch?

However, I agree with Jonathan's argument that this may constitute a
privacy violation—but if the welcome bot is pulling from a public log to
send these welcomes (as it must be), then the potential privacy violation
occurs regardless of whether a welcome is sent, and the fix, if deemed
necessary, needs to happen upstream.

Regardless, has anyone asked Meno25 if they are willing and able to update
the bot to distinguish between locally vs SUL-created accounts? Or offered
to help do so? They have been willing to make changes
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#substituting_welcome_template_is_without_value>
in the past. It sounds like that would fix the issue that prompted this
thread.

- Jonathan

1.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse_long_term_new_editor_retention
2. Boreum Choi, Kira Alexander, Robert E. Kraut, and John M. Levine. 2010.
Socialization tactics in wikipedia and their effects. In *Proceedings of
the 2010 ACM conference on Computer supported cooperative work* (CSCW '10).
ACM, New York, NY, USA, 107-116. DOI:
https://doi.org/10.1145/1718918.1718940

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 2:53 PM, quiddity <pandiculation@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a
> > negative factor.
> >
>
> The results from past research are Not easy to summarize, and
> definitely not that simple, because of all the varying factors in both
> the templates and the research projects.
> E.g. message-length/-linkcount/-tone/-formatting (all of which slowly
> change over the years), the reason/timing for receiving a welcome
> (account-creation, first-edit, random edit, time-after-event), whether
> anything else was communicated around the same time (e.g. additional
> warning templates) on the same page or elsewhere, whether the welcome
> was personalized at all, what username it was signed with (a human
> name in my language, a funny avatar name, a generic bot-name, etc),
> etc -- all of which can be different (subtly or significantly) at
> every project and every instance).
> Some relevant links include:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_editor_
> welcome_wishlist#Results_and_discussion
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_A/B_testing/
> Results#Welcome_messages
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Rhetoric_of_the_welcome_message
> but there are many more formal and informal attempts to understand and
> improve it all (from Enwiki's Teahouse initiatives, to all the
> scattered multilingual template_talk and wikiproject discussions (from
> Q6137590, to all the topic-specific wikiprojects)).
>
> TL;DR: Onboarding is complicated.
> Many people are helped by welcome messages.
> Many welcome messages are (or were) imperfect (too
> long/dense/formal/informal/irrelevant/technical/etc).
> I do not know if there is any specific research that focuses purely on
> the timing (whether it is best to send at account-creation, after
> first-edit, after human-review of an edit, whilst the user is
> logged-in or offline, etc), but I agree it might be useful.
>
> Here are some of the other research projects that look at welcome
> templates as one of the factors, but not the primary focus,
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_user_help_
> requests/Full_report
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Ignored_period_and_retention
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Framing_Support_for_Newcomers
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Alternative_
> lifecycles_of_new_users
>
> Lastly, regarding the specific instance of Arwiki
> - it's better than nothing, because some people will Not edit until
> given some encouragement, and some people like to read the rules
> before they start something.
> - It would be good if the bot could distinguish between
> accounts-made-locally (i.e. likely to be able to read Arabic) vs
> accounts-attached-via-Single-User-Login (and to only send those latter
> accounts a welcome message, after they've made 1 edit locally). I
> don't know if that is currently possible or feasible.
>
> Quiddity
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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--
Jonathan T. Morgan
Senior Design Researcher
Wikimedia Foundation
User:Jmorgan (WMF) <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jmorgan_(WMF)>
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It may or may not be a coincidence, but today I heard a similar complaint
from somebody who occasionally edits in Hebrew, and was freaked out by a
welcome message that was sent after he simply read a page in the French
Wikipedia.

As Jonathan says, even if it is a privacy issue, it's not really a new one,
because user creation logs have been public for a long time; it may just be
more visible because of the bots.

And again, at a more appropriate time: very happy new year to all!

?????? 29 ????? 2017 11:21,? "John Erling Blad" <jeblad@gmail.com> ???:

> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>
> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> arwiki.
>
> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> _______________________________________________
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I'm surprised that this whole thing is even an issue at this late date.
Considering the importance to the projects of recruiting and retaining
contrbutors, how is it possible to be in a position where the various
projects do not have a comprehensive understanding of, and well-researched
evidence-based policies for, welcoming new contributors, and efficient and
effective tools in place to implement those policies? Indeed, why were
these things not all sorted out at least a decade ago?

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:

> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at
> that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I
> can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>
> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at
> arwiki.
>
> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
> _______________________________________________
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I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.

Happy new year,

Pine
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I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this
IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.

Vito

2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging
> Legal to request a review of this matter.
>
> Happy new year,
>
> Pine
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Possibly because they have been busy with other things?
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Renée Bagslint
Sent: 01 January 2018 00:10
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

I'm surprised that this whole thing is even an issue at this late date.
Considering the importance to the projects of recruiting and retaining contrbutors, how is it possible to be in a position where the various projects do not have a comprehensive understanding of, and well-researched evidence-based policies for, welcoming new contributors, and efficient and effective tools in place to implement those policies? Indeed, why were these things not all sorted out at least a decade ago?

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> wrote:

> Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
> arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no
> activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity
> is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
>
> I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user
> accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions
> at arwiki.
>
> Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
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FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.

If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
matter.

Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>

On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this
> IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
>
> > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging
> > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> >
> > Happy new year,
> >
> > Pine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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There are a lot of SUL issues that are waiting to be addressed. One for example is the definition of what is not "appropriate" as a name. Another one is a centralized interface for preferences, a third one is a centralized management of key user information, a forth one is the possibility to disactivate crosswiki ping services so you can manage them only when you want to... and so on... one reasonable thing you can ask is that the message is not inserted in the talk of people with no edits, for example. Or that the welcome messages are progressively standardized, with a clear layout for the message that can be declined with the users' language preferences when they are declared. Sure, there is no point in linking me again to the five pillar, but a link to some key pages might still be useful.
In any case I cannot think of it as really important, and it is to me less important than other issues related to the SUL interface.
Right in these days one of my friends that I registered years ago or that was already registered (in any case a very minor contributor, with only a superficial involvement on wiki platforms) received one of this welcome message in one "non-western language". He/She found it funny.
I probably have very tolerant friends... good for me! But so far I still feel that this is a problem only for a small fraction on  mid-term and long-term users than for the rest of the world. I believe that if you make an extensive research these messages might have no effect (especially if left by bot), they probably have some effect if they are part of a human interaction, and there is a minority who will disagree with them strongly. Based on the human interactions and experiences in my life at the workplace, I kinda suspect that for many of these people this could be also their general attitude in other fields.
Don't get me wrong, I am concerned by the abuse of psychometric and personal data on modern internet platform, I'll do whatever I could to prevent it that's why I really don't understand why these messages given by an open and linear process are such a big deal per se. To me it's like overthinking something quite superficial and that's unfortunately rarely in the interest of taking care of the real big deal, such as e.g. your personal metadata being sold to big conglomerates without your "active permission". So are my friends, and, surprise surpirse, they don't care about these welcome messages too.

Il Mercoledì 24 Gennaio 2018 4:41, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> ha scritto:


FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.

If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
matter.

Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>

On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this
> IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
>
> > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging
> > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> >
> > Happy new year,
> >
> > Pine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in
the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual
all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
staff have a lot on their plate.

This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable.
A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure
you can understand Pine.

Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
behalf and let them do their jobs.

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

> FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this
> matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be
> others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
>
> If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
> if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> matter.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this
> > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> pinging
> > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > >
> > > Happy new year,
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> >
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--
Seddon

*Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
*Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
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If it has been discussed before, then it would be nice if someone can
provide a pointer to that discussion.

Den ons. 24. jan. 2018, 11.29 skrev Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>:

> This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in
> the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual
> all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> staff have a lot on their plate.
>
> This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable.
> A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure
> you can understand Pine.
>
> Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> behalf and let them do their jobs.
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> this
> > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may
> be
> > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> >
> > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
> > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > matter.
> >
> > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> this
> > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > pinging
> > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > >
> > > > Happy new year,
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Seddon
>
> *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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Joe,

I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
days.

For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
something that the RfC would attempt to measure.

In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
cooperation if necessary and if possible.

John,

A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.

Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
wrote:

> This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in
> the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual
> all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> staff have a lot on their plate.
>
> This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable.
> A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure
> you can understand Pine.
>
> Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> behalf and let them do their jobs.
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> this
> > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may
> be
> > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> >
> > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or
> > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > matter.
> >
> > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> this
> > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > pinging
> > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > >
> > > > Happy new year,
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Seddon
>
> *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>
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The information is so noisy (transclusions may trigger autocreation) and
irrelevant (no information about pages, just wikis) I don't see an issue
worth resolving.

Vito

2018-01-25 22:54 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> Joe,
>
> I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
> on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
> days.
>
> For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
> that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
>
> In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
> I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
> problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> cooperation if necessary and if possible.
>
> John,
>
> A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
> Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> in
> > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> annual
> > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > staff have a lot on their plate.
> >
> > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> acceptable.
> > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> sure
> > you can understand Pine.
> >
> > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> > this
> > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> may
> > be
> > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > >
> > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
> or
> > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> > this
> > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > pinging
> > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
> unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Seddon
> >
> > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use
of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.

The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account.
This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie
exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not
intended and not acceptable.

I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real
contributors, that would be pretty simple

Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> Joe,
>
> I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
> on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
> days.
>
> For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
> that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
>
> In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
> I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
> problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> cooperation if necessary and if possible.
>
> John,
>
> A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
> Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> in
> > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> annual
> > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > staff have a lot on their plate.
> >
> > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> acceptable.
> > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> sure
> > you can understand Pine.
> >
> > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> > this
> > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> may
> > be
> > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > >
> > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
> or
> > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> > this
> > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > pinging
> > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Seddon
> >
> > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that the information of visiting a site exists and it is public. 
So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do thishttps://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&target=Alexmar983
and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of the things I implicitly agree when I make an account?
The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data.
Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.

Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> ha scritto:


I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use
of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.

The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account.
This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie
exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not
intended and not acceptable.

I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real
contributors, that would be pretty simple

Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> Joe,
>
> I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
> on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
> days.
>
> For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
> that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
>
> In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
> I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
> problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> cooperation if necessary and if possible.
>
> John,
>
> A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
> Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> in
> > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> annual
> > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > staff have a lot on their plate.
> >
> > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> acceptable.
> > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> sure
> > you can understand Pine.
> >
> > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> > this
> > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> may
> > be
> > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > >
> > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
> or
> > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> > this
> > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > pinging
> > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Seddon
> >
> > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Fine! If people refuse the easy way out, then create an Rfc, and start the
process to make creation of new user accounts non-public information.

Den fre. 26. jan. 2018, 03.04 skrev Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>:

> you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot
> itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public
> information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human
> being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain
> wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes
> immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot
> tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that
> the information of visiting a site exists and it is public.
> So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do
> thishttps://
> commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&target=Alexmar983
> and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on
> fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the
> first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system
> having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not
> even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge
> of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of
> the things I implicitly agree when I make an account?
> The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable
> with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem
> and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user
> look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right
> or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it
> probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in
> their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about
> it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is
> not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL
> information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I
> should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data.
> Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now
> imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody
> really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their
> provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is
> "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not
> public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they
> receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first
> time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.
>
> Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com>
> ha scritto:
>
>
> I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use
> of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.
>
> The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account.
> This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie
> exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not
> intended and not acceptable.
>
> I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real
> contributors, that would be pretty simple
>
> Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first
> raised
> > on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> > issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> > privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> > should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> > statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> > task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> > situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed
> within
> > days.
> >
> > For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> > encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> > establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> > involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> > Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations
> and
> > that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> > something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
> >
> > In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure,
> and
> > I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there
> are
> > problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> > address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> > cooperation if necessary and if possible.
> >
> > John,
> >
> > A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from
> WMF
> > Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> > The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> > discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> > resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> > conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> > way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> > I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
> >
> > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break
> following
> > > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> > in
> > > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> > annual
> > > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > > staff have a lot on their plate.
> > >
> > > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> > acceptable.
> > > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> > sure
> > > you can understand Pine.
> > >
> > > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on
> our
> > > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation
> about
> > > this
> > > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> > may
> > > be
> > > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > > >
> > > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is
> satisfactory,
> > or
> > > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about
> this
> > > > matter.
> > > >
> > > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of
> "unblock
> > > this
> > > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vito
> > > > >
> > > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > > pinging
> > > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Seddon
> > >
> > > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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i think many people might not understand what is the real problem here with this aspect in the general framework. I might make a brutal simplification, of course.
In any case, if you manage to make the moment when a logged-in user is connected to a platform for the first time a secret, that basically do not have a big impact on anything most of the people do, so I can probably tell you to go on. What would be the effect? The info will disappear from the SUL table or something like that. Whatever.
But I guess, cynically, that a "non-solution" of "don't use the bot" is much more fitting for the "social ecosystem" and the way it evolves on wiki platforms. This way you did not address a higher level aspect of the issue, you remove the global feeling of alert down a notch and you can act in any case as if you did something in that direction. Also, it makes no solid precedent when future real privacy problem are discussed. 
That's why asking to remove the info completely, from my point of view, it's even slightly better.  At least next time we discuss privacy in other matter I have a strong precedent case to cite. I mean... if people make a fuzz about this, I expect they really care about other things. I could ping all the favorable to such information removal one by one in a future RfC.
Alex

Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 3:37, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> ha scritto:


Fine! If people refuse the easy way out, then create an Rfc, and start the process to make creation of new user accounts non-public information.
Den fre. 26. jan. 2018, 03.04 skrev Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>:

you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that the information of visiting a site exists and it is public. 
So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do thishttps://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&target=Alexmar983
and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of the things I implicitly agree when I make an account?
The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data.
Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.

    Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com> ha scritto:


 I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use
of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.

The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account.
This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie
exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not
intended and not acceptable.

I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real
contributors, that would be pretty simple

Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

> Joe,
>
> I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised
> on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this
> issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential
> privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue
> should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the
> statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority
> task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the
> situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within
> days.
>
> For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1)
> encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to
> establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here
> involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything.
> Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and
> that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is
> something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
>
> In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and
> I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are
> problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to
> address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s
> cooperation if necessary and if possible.
>
> John,
>
> A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF
> Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter.
> The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to
> discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be
> resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a
> conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best
> way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but
> I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
>
> Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following
> > which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
> in
> > the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
> annual
> > all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal
> > staff have a lot on their plate.
> >
> > This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
> acceptable.
> > A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
> sure
> > you can understand Pine.
> >
> > Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is
> > acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting
> > your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our
> > behalf and let them do their jobs.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
> > this
> > > matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
> may
> > be
> > > others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
> > >
> > > If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
> or
> > > if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this.
> > > > I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
> > this
> > > > IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
> > > pinging
> > > > > Legal to request a review of this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy new year,
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
> > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Seddon
> >
> > *Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
> > *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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