Mailing List Archive

Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews
I recently stumbled upon the mailing-list discussion of the Chinese Wikinews. When I found the discussion, I couldn't believe what I was reading. Is this the Wikimedia Foundation that believes in free projects creating free content, "free" as in both "free beer" and "free speech"?

While neutrality (NPOV) is a central policy at Wikimedia (and probably its very best policy!), the Wikimedia Foundation is not neutral about *everything*. There are some things about which it takes a very clear stance, and one of those things is freedom.

When it came to the issue of audio file formats, for instance, Jimbo Wales made a very clear and correct decision that only file formats that could legally be used in free software would be allowed. Many tens of thousands of Wikimedia users would probably have liked to have been allowed to upload MP3 files. If an open vote had been held, MP3 would probably have been allowed. But no vote was held, because this is a fundamental Wikimedia policy.

On a practical level, the decision may have been more about promoting Ogg Vorbis that about real legal worries about MP3. But that is valid as well. Personally, I agree completely with Jimbo's principled decision to disallow MP3. That is because "free content" is a fundamental, non-negotiable policy of Wikimedia.

For details, see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Sound#File_formats and http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-July/011514.html.

When it comes to the Chinese Wikinews, however, the Wikimedia Foundation has not stood up (so far) for free content.

Here the problem is not "free beer" but "free speech." To dely or deny setting up *any* Wikimedia project because of the fear or threat of censorship is something that the Foundation should be ashamed of. This is not a "community" issue, and to call it such is to misrepresent the problem. This is an issue about the fundamental policies of Wikimedia.

Do we really believe in free speech? Or is the only policy Wikimedia really cares about one of "free beer" (i.e. in the case of Ogg Vorbis, the legal technicalities of open source software)? Open software is terribly important, but it is no more important that providing an outlet for people to write free news stories in Chinese.

Far more than enough users have already requested the Chinese project. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition#Chinese.28zh.29. Some are mainland Chinese, others are part of the Chinese diaspora numbering tens of millions, people who have no worries about government censorship. All have been jointly denied, up to now, a useful project, only because of fears of censorship.

Are those fears justified? Perhaps. But the more relevant question is: Even if the fears are justified, does that allow Wikimedia to be untrue to its value of "free" projects (which includes "freedom of speech")? Furthermore, because *some* Chinese users fear censorship, should the project be delayed or denied to all?

This is also an issue of power. Yes, power. Do we believe in our own strength? Wikimedia has become, quite unexpectedly, a very well-known, well-respected, and influential organization all over the world. That means that even if the threats censorship are real, and even if there is some censorship in the short term, there is every reason to believe that such censorship will not stand for long. Just as blocking was lifted from the Chinese Wikipedia, it will be lifted, eventually, from Wikinews. The Chinese government will not be able, for long, to justify its opposition to Wikimedia projects. But we have to believe in ourselves, and in the fundamental value of free speech.

To conclude (and I apologize for this being so long), Wikimedia today is a project that is "free" as in free beer. But as long as Chinese Wikinews is delayed or denied, Wikimedia is *not* free as in free speech.

The Wikimedia Foundation must take an absolutely clear, non-negotiable position that the fear or threat of censorship will not be allowed to interfere with any existing or proposed Wikimedia Project. "Free speech" is no less important that "free beer."

Dovi Jacobs

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Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
Dovi Jacobs a écrit:
> I recently stumbled upon the mailing-list discussion of the Chinese Wikinews. When I found the discussion, I couldn't believe what I was reading. Is this the Wikimedia Foundation that believes in free projects creating free content, "free" as in both "free beer" and "free speech"?
>
> While neutrality (NPOV) is a central policy at Wikimedia (and probably its very best policy!), the Wikimedia Foundation is not neutral about *everything*. There are some things about which it takes a very clear stance, and one of those things is freedom.
>
> When it came to the issue of audio file formats, for instance, Jimbo Wales made a very clear and correct decision that only file formats that could legally be used in free software would be allowed. Many tens of thousands of Wikimedia users would probably have liked to have been allowed to upload MP3 files. If an open vote had been held, MP3 would probably have been allowed. But no vote was held, because this is a fundamental Wikimedia policy.
>
> On a practical level, the decision may have been more about promoting Ogg Vorbis that about real legal worries about MP3. But that is valid as well. Personally, I agree completely with Jimbo's principled decision to disallow MP3. That is because "free content" is a fundamental, non-negotiable policy of Wikimedia.
>
> For details, see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Sound#File_formats and http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-July/011514.html.
>
> When it comes to the Chinese Wikinews, however, the Wikimedia Foundation has not stood up (so far) for free content.
>
> Here the problem is not "free beer" but "free speech." To dely or deny setting up *any* Wikimedia project because of the fear or threat of censorship is something that the Foundation should be ashamed of. This is not a "community" issue, and to call it such is to misrepresent the problem. This is an issue about the fundamental policies of Wikimedia.
>
> Do we really believe in free speech? Or is the only policy Wikimedia really cares about one of "free beer" (i.e. in the case of Ogg Vorbis, the legal technicalities of open source software)? Open software is terribly important, but it is no more important that providing an outlet for people to write free news stories in Chinese.
>
> Far more than enough users have already requested the Chinese project. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition#Chinese.28zh.29. Some are mainland Chinese, others are part of the Chinese diaspora numbering tens of millions, people who have no worries about government censorship. All have been jointly denied, up to now, a useful project, only because of fears of censorship.
>
> Are those fears justified? Perhaps. But the more relevant question is: Even if the fears are justified, does that allow Wikimedia to be untrue to its value of "free" projects (which includes "freedom of speech")? Furthermore, because *some* Chinese users fear censorship, should the project be delayed or denied to all?
>
> This is also an issue of power. Yes, power. Do we believe in our own strength? Wikimedia has become, quite unexpectedly, a very well-known, well-respected, and influential organization all over the world. That means that even if the threats censorship are real, and even if there is some censorship in the short term, there is every reason to believe that such censorship will not stand for long. Just as blocking was lifted from the Chinese Wikipedia, it will be lifted, eventually, from Wikinews. The Chinese government will not be able, for long, to justify its opposition to Wikimedia projects. But we have to believe in ourselves, and in the fundamental value of free speech.
>
> To conclude (and I apologize for this being so long), Wikimedia today is a project that is "free" as in free beer. But as long as Chinese Wikinews is delayed or denied, Wikimedia is *not* free as in free speech.
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation must take an absolutely clear, non-negotiable position that the fear or threat of censorship will not be allowed to interfere with any existing or proposed Wikimedia Project. "Free speech" is no less important that "free beer."
>
> Dovi Jacobs

You make a very good point and I thank you for your very clear mail.

There is a little thing disturbing me in your argumentation.
You explain Jimbo took the good decision with regards to the use of
.ogg, while hinting that if a vote had taken place, it is likely MP3
would have been accepted. You consider then that Jimbo or the Foundation
had to take *this* decision, because it was a fundamental one. Hence
to be taken, whatever the position of the community on it.

As you say "This is not a "community" issue, and to call it such is to
misrepresent the problem. This is an issue about the fundamental
policies of Wikimedia."

However, you also argue that till now, many chinese have asked for the
wikinews and that we are denying them a useful project. So... you fall
back on an argument based on user request...

This is a tricky issue. Either we consider it fully a fundamental policy
and the fact part of users support and part of users oppose the creation
should NOT be taken into account... or we decide it is important, but
require clearer community support. Not so easy to all agree on what
should be done :-)


ant
Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
"However, you also argue that till now, many chinese have asked for the wikinews and that we are denying them a useful project. So... you fall back on an argument based on user request...""This is a tricky issue. Either we consider it fully a fundamental policy and the fact part of users support and part of users oppose the creation should NOT be taken into account... or we decide it is important, but require clearer community support. Not so easy to all agree on what should be done :-)"

Thanks for your reply, Anthere! (That was fast, I was just about to go offline.)

As far as I understand, normally when there is enough interest in a language version of Wikinews, the language is launched.

That is normal policy, so I have not fallen back on "community" in my argument.

Rather, the point is that *not* to act on normal policy here conflicts with a fundamental policy of freedom.

What you hint at is a slightly different issue, one which makes the *discussion* a bit more "tricky" as you say, but not the gut issue.

Namely: What if there is "opposition" to a new language wiki? Should there be a way not just to express interest in building one, but also to vote against one? Intuitively, the answer is "no", because anyone who doesn't want to work on that project in that language simply doesn't have to!

I understand that this latter question caused problems for the French Wikinews, though I don't know the details.

However, whatever happened with French Wikinews is connected only to the secondary policy question, namely, should the policy for creating new languages, when the languages are legitimate Wikimedia languages, also allow for opposition? Though I think in normal circumstances probably not, this is completely unconnected to Chinese Wikinews!

My point is to completely disengage the two issues: Whether or not "opposition" should be allowed to creating a new language in a project is one question, and it is a completely legitimate question (though I personally think the answer should be "no" in normal circumstances).

But when such "opposition" is based on the threat or fear of censorship - there cannot even be a question at all. Censorship is not a valid reason to oppose a Wikimedia project, if the project stands for free speech.



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Re: Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
Anthere:

> This is a tricky issue. Either we consider it fully a fundamental policy
> and the fact part of users support and part of users oppose the creation
> should NOT be taken into account... or we decide it is important, but
> require clearer community support. Not so easy to all agree on what
> should be done :-)

Dovi makes an important point which I also made in my "State of the
Wiki" summary, which is that there are millions of Chinese speakers who
would not be affected by censorship in mainland China. So, effectively,
there are two communities: one that would feel the censorship, and one
that wouldn't. The question is, should lack of support in one of them be
sufficient to deny the project to the other?

Regards,

Erik
Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
Dovi Jacobs wrote:
> I recently stumbled upon the mailing-list discussion of the Chinese
> Wikinews. When I found the discussion, I couldn't believe what I was
> reading. Is this the Wikimedia Foundation that believes in free
> projects creating free content, "free" as in both "free beer" and
> "free speech"?

I think you're getting actual free speech confused with the paradoxical
terminology used by Richard Stallman to describe software with
restricted rights of use and distribution. Wikimedia supports the latter
but has never supported the former. Rightly or wrongly, Wikimedia
projects have been complicit in censorship of various kinds. I don't
think the discussion of censorship is aided by conflating these two
concepts.

-- Tim Starling
Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
On 5/2/05, Dovi Jacobs <dovijacobs@yahoo.com> wrote:

> When it came to the issue of audio file formats, for instance, Jimbo Wales made a very clear and correct decision that only file formats that could legally be used in free software would be allowed. Many tens of thousands of Wikimedia users would probably have liked to have been allowed to upload MP3 files. If an open vote had been held, MP3 would probably have been allowed. But no vote was held, because this is a fundamental Wikimedia policy.

Now, that's an interesting point. IF this were really the point, I
MIGHT just give up. You say that MP3 cannot be "legally used in free
software". So, what is going on? Is it indeed not used in free
software? In that case I agree with not including it. Or is it used,
but do we say that's illegal? In that case I still think we should
shut up and just allow it. The issue should be availability, not
politics. Especially not politics that noone else seems to care about.

Andre Engels
Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
On Monday 02 May 2005 11:01, Andre Engels wrote:

> Now, that's an interesting point. IF this were really the point, I
> MIGHT just give up. You say that MP3 cannot be "legally used in free
> software". So, what is going on? Is it indeed not used in free
> software?

FWIW: SuSE as well as RedHat removed the mp3 codecs from their recent
distributions.

best regards,
Marco
Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
Hi.

I haven't seen the original discussion about a Chinese Wikinews, so this
is the first time I hear why it was disallowed.

If I understand this right... and please correct me if I don't... you
are "afraid" that censorship might happen, and so you preempt it by
censoring it yourself?...
Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
Dovi Jacobs wrote:
>
> What if there is "opposition" to a new language wiki? Should there be
> a way not just to express interest in building one, but also to vote
> against one? Intuitively, the answer is "no", because anyone who
> doesn't want to work on that project in that language simply doesn't
> have to!

Taking as an example the infamous Klingon Wikipedia, it was pretty clear
that a majority of people felt they were entitled to "vote against" it,
even though the argument you mentioned had already been brought up at
the time.
Re: Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
Timwi (timwi@gmx.net) [050502 23:19]:

> If I understand this right... and please correct me if I don't... you
> are "afraid" that censorship might happen, and so you preempt it by
> censoring it yourself?...


And never mind the Chinese speakers in Taiwan, the US, the rest of the
world ...

Let's imagine the UK government became ridiculously censorious. Would the
US-based Wikimedia then adopt the same attitude to English language
projects? Of course it wouldn't.


- d.
Re: Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
On 5/3/05, David Gerard <fun@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
> And never mind the Chinese speakers in Taiwan, the US, the rest of the
> world ...
>
> Let's imagine the UK government became ridiculously censorious. Would the
> US-based Wikimedia then adopt the same attitude to English language
> projects? Of course it wouldn't.
>
>
> - d.

This isnt quite a fair comparision. It ignores the massive difference
in population. Britain is about 50 million people out of over a
billion english speakers. Mainland China is over a billion chinese
speakers out of a populaiton of one point something billion speakers.

paz y amor,
[[wikinews:User:The bellman]]

--
hit me: <robin.shannon.id.au>
jab me: <robin.shannon@jabber.org.au>

This work is released into the public domain.
<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain>
Re: Re: Ogg Vorbis versus Chinese Wikinews [ In reply to ]
Robin Shannon (robin.shannon@gmail.com) [050503 02:28]:
> On 5/3/05, David Gerard <fun@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:

> > And never mind the Chinese speakers in Taiwan, the US, the rest of the
> > world ...
> > Let's imagine the UK government became ridiculously censorious. Would the
> > US-based Wikimedia then adopt the same attitude to English language
> > projects? Of course it wouldn't.

> This isnt quite a fair comparision. It ignores the massive difference
> in population. Britain is about 50 million people out of over a
> billion english speakers. Mainland China is over a billion chinese
> speakers out of a populaiton of one point something billion speakers.


My point is that rather than shying away from it, I think the "FUCK THAT"
in response would be audible from orbit.


- d.