Mailing List Archive

Languages and education
Hello,

First of all, I wish a happy new year to all who may
be concerned.
This year, I spent Christmas and New Year Eve in an
unusual way, since I was in the Sahara desert (south
of Algeria) for 15 days, as an ecotourist.
I had a real great time over there, which I will share
with Wikipedia in trying to improve many articles
related to the areas I went to, as well as with many
pictures.

However, I wished to share a couple of additional
things/thoughts with you. About languages and
education.

I spent a little while in Tamanrasset, and discussed
with some of it inhabitants, men and women. It is a
strange situation, as it cannot be said that people
are "poor", in the sense that most have the basics
which allow them to live quite happily. The city is
growing pretty fast (50 000 unhabitants), but is not
sustainable for its water, nor for its food, nor for
most of its industrial goods. Most of it is imported
from the north of Algeria. The city is essentially
living from camels, goats and sheep... and tourism in
the surroundings of course. While the city is shared
by many ethnies and different nationalities, most
people over there are muslims. They speak a mixture of
Tuareg language (tamazight or tamahaq) and some local
arab which can hardly be recognised by those of us
French who learned classical arab in France.

One thing surprised me greatly. I thought the majority
of Algerians could be said to speak French (since
Algeria was previously a french colony). Well, I
discovered over there that if all adults have notions
of french language, many of them are very very far
from fluent. I could speak to no kids under 15, even
though I was told that all of them start learning
french language at school from the age of 8 (?). So, I
went for a little check and discovered that according
to statistics, about 62% of Algerian speak decent
french (enough for communication), and this number
have been increasing in the past years.

Now, Tamanrasset is in the most southern part of
Algeria, so rather far away from France, though there
is still obviously strong French influence. People I
met talked with one another in Tamahaq, talk with
other Tamanrasset people in a southern arab, speak
with us in french, and receive education in classical
arab. Guys ! these people manage roughly 4 languages !

When France left Algeria, the whole educational system
was in french language; the algerian government tried
to switch entirely to classical arab over the years,
even though there were at that time not enough
teachers knowledgeable in classical arab, even though
most Algerians do not manage well classical arab, even
though there were no educational books in classical
arab to teach children. Over the years, the government
has tried to impose more and more classical arab, to
the dismay of all those speaking berberes languages
(such as the Touareg). From my friends in Algers, I
know that university education is still partly in
french, in particular in scientific and technical
domains. But from what I understood, the algerian
educational system is in great part a failure, as it
is taught in a language that many Algerian do not
manage well, as it results in diplomas of little value
on european or american market, and as many students
end up secondary school with such a poor knowledge in
french that they are unable to come to french
universities or even to follow well algerian
university classes. Possibly, knowing more of english
language might help but it seems currently limited.


Two things raised my attention greatly.
First, a university is currently being built in
Tamanrasset. For now, students usually go to Algers to
follow upper studies (about 1500 km away, which
evidently implies only quite wealthy people can afford
this).


Second, as we crossed villages in the mountains, we
were surrounded by kids, from 6 to 12. Only the eldest
could really communicate a bit with us. We had some
pens for them, which we distributed. But it was not
really what they were looking for. The youngest wanted
paper mostly. But all asked for books. Only books. Not
food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
can't read french". But this is what they wanted
nevertheless.

When I asked to my favorite guide, he told me "they
learn french at school, a little bit, but they have no
opportunity to practice. Except for a few tourists,
who could they talk french to ? At least, with books,
they can learn a bit".

I suspect the school probably only has a couple of
worn out ones. Possibly only a couple of worn out
books in arab as well.
I dig a couple of my son books to give them. Not much.
If I had guessed, it would have been easy to bring a
few more.

As I understood, analphabetism is rising over there,
especially among girls. If the kids do not speak
french, their access to university is limited. And the
main economical resource of the area is tourism, most
tourists being french speaking.

Computers in these villages is out of question. They
have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
in Tamanrasset.

There might be things to do no ?






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Re: Languages and education [ In reply to ]
This is absolutely fascinating to me. Just really fascinating.

I think this is the kind of knowledge we have to have, knowledge of
real conditions in real places, in order to be able to help
effectively.

--Jimbo


Anthere wrote:

> Hello,
>
> First of all, I wish a happy new year to all who may
> be concerned.
> This year, I spent Christmas and New Year Eve in an
> unusual way, since I was in the Sahara desert (south
> of Algeria) for 15 days, as an ecotourist.
> I had a real great time over there, which I will share
> with Wikipedia in trying to improve many articles
> related to the areas I went to, as well as with many
> pictures.
>
> However, I wished to share a couple of additional
> things/thoughts with you. About languages and
> education.
>
> I spent a little while in Tamanrasset, and discussed
> with some of it inhabitants, men and women. It is a
> strange situation, as it cannot be said that people
> are "poor", in the sense that most have the basics
> which allow them to live quite happily. The city is
> growing pretty fast (50 000 unhabitants), but is not
> sustainable for its water, nor for its food, nor for
> most of its industrial goods. Most of it is imported
> from the north of Algeria. The city is essentially
> living from camels, goats and sheep... and tourism in
> the surroundings of course. While the city is shared
> by many ethnies and different nationalities, most
> people over there are muslims. They speak a mixture of
> Tuareg language (tamazight or tamahaq) and some local
> arab which can hardly be recognised by those of us
> French who learned classical arab in France.
>
> One thing surprised me greatly. I thought the majority
> of Algerians could be said to speak French (since
> Algeria was previously a french colony). Well, I
> discovered over there that if all adults have notions
> of french language, many of them are very very far
> from fluent. I could speak to no kids under 15, even
> though I was told that all of them start learning
> french language at school from the age of 8 (?). So, I
> went for a little check and discovered that according
> to statistics, about 62% of Algerian speak decent
> french (enough for communication), and this number
> have been increasing in the past years.
>
> Now, Tamanrasset is in the most southern part of
> Algeria, so rather far away from France, though there
> is still obviously strong French influence. People I
> met talked with one another in Tamahaq, talk with
> other Tamanrasset people in a southern arab, speak
> with us in french, and receive education in classical
> arab. Guys ! these people manage roughly 4 languages !
>
> When France left Algeria, the whole educational system
> was in french language; the algerian government tried
> to switch entirely to classical arab over the years,
> even though there were at that time not enough
> teachers knowledgeable in classical arab, even though
> most Algerians do not manage well classical arab, even
> though there were no educational books in classical
> arab to teach children. Over the years, the government
> has tried to impose more and more classical arab, to
> the dismay of all those speaking berberes languages
> (such as the Touareg). From my friends in Algers, I
> know that university education is still partly in
> french, in particular in scientific and technical
> domains. But from what I understood, the algerian
> educational system is in great part a failure, as it
> is taught in a language that many Algerian do not
> manage well, as it results in diplomas of little value
> on european or american market, and as many students
> end up secondary school with such a poor knowledge in
> french that they are unable to come to french
> universities or even to follow well algerian
> university classes. Possibly, knowing more of english
> language might help but it seems currently limited.
>
>
> Two things raised my attention greatly.
> First, a university is currently being built in
> Tamanrasset. For now, students usually go to Algers to
> follow upper studies (about 1500 km away, which
> evidently implies only quite wealthy people can afford
> this).
>
>
> Second, as we crossed villages in the mountains, we
> were surrounded by kids, from 6 to 12. Only the eldest
> could really communicate a bit with us. We had some
> pens for them, which we distributed. But it was not
> really what they were looking for. The youngest wanted
> paper mostly. But all asked for books. Only books. Not
> food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
> wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
> can't read french". But this is what they wanted
> nevertheless.
>
> When I asked to my favorite guide, he told me "they
> learn french at school, a little bit, but they have no
> opportunity to practice. Except for a few tourists,
> who could they talk french to ? At least, with books,
> they can learn a bit".
>
> I suspect the school probably only has a couple of
> worn out ones. Possibly only a couple of worn out
> books in arab as well.
> I dig a couple of my son books to give them. Not much.
> If I had guessed, it would have been easy to bring a
> few more.
>
> As I understood, analphabetism is rising over there,
> especially among girls. If the kids do not speak
> french, their access to university is limited. And the
> main economical resource of the area is tourism, most
> tourists being french speaking.
>
> Computers in these villages is out of question. They
> have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
> long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
> local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
> sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
> email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
> in Tamanrasset.
>
> There might be things to do no ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
"La nèfle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org
Re: Languages and education [ In reply to ]
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> (...)
>>
>> all asked for books. Only books. Not
>> food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
>> wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
>> can't read french". But this is what they wanted
>> nevertheless.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> Computers in these villages is out of question. They
>> have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
>> long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
>> local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
>> sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
>> email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
>> in Tamanrasset.
>>
>> There might be things to do no ?

On 5 Jan 2005, at 14:58, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

> This is absolutely fascinating to me. Just really fascinating.
>
> I think this is the kind of knowledge we have to have, knowledge of
> real conditions in real places, in order to be able to help
> effectively.
>
> --Jimbo

Seconded.

Caution may be advised however:
If, say, we get something going and distribute books ''from France'',
this could easily be seen by local (Algerian) politicians/nationalists
as "some French-American organization is trying to subvert our
education system by hijacking our children's literacy development."
Very bad mojo/karma/blood. Yes, I agree with Anthere's (implied)
suggestions, but if we even try to do something, we should be very
diplomatic about it and thread very carefully. Make sure our
non-affiliation and charitable nature is very much known and possibly
involve the (Algerian) national through local government and/or kindly
ask them for advice or even permission. Make sure our attitude does NOT
get to be: "What a crappy country and f*&ked-up government/education
system. Heck, we can do this SO much better." And make sure local (ie.
Algerian) people KNOW that that's not our attitude. Just asking people
nicely and showing them that we fully respect them will often work
wonders. And make sure that they know that they can become Wikipedians,
too.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
www.ropersonline.com
Re: Languages and education [ In reply to ]
Hi everyone

I would like to add a little to this discussion.

I am from South Africa, which is one of the African
countries in better shape, though things are not
completely rosey.

Africa, in general, is in a bad way (really bad
depending on where you look, Darfur, Congo, Liberia,
etc.) but I think that for once there is really a glimmer
of hope. For the first time African's have been trying,
I'll admit success is still way off, to solve Africa's
problems. Its not possible to do it alone but the mindset
has finally changed. I am prepared to discuss this at length but
its not the purpose of my email - I just want to set a scene.

In Southern Africa there is peace for the first time. Angola's
civil war very recently ended, Namibia is peaceful, Botswana has no
prospects of war, Mozambique fought itself to a standstill and now
there is peace (peace != schools, money, infrastructure etc.), Swaziland
and Lesotho are also peaceful and so is South Africa. Zimbabwe has
some issues but largely Southern Africa is stable and so now is the
prime opportunity to lay a foundation for lasting peace which will hopefully
spread north.

How does this tie in with your discussion, well I feel that a key
area for solid peace is to stimulate education - Africa needs teachers,
doctors, engineers, nurses etc. and the best thing for Africa is that
they come from Africa and not be visitors as part of an international
aid program (I think that aid is very necessary but its just not a sustainable
solution).

So languages and education - well an organisation like wikimedia can help
a stack with education. No computers in rural villages I agree but I have shown
that (http://www.nongnu.org/fhsst) science textbooks can be reduced in cost
by an order of magnitude. This can only help stretch those limited education
budgets in Africa much further. The content we have written as part of FHSST
will be migrated into WikiBooks very soon - I am working on it but Latex2Wiki
isn't the simplest mapping I've ever seen.

Due to the colonies that once existed free textbooks in English, French and Portuguese
could make a huge impact across Africa. If they are cheap (we estimate $3 per copy of
our Physics book - hard colour cover and bound) then its easier to distribute
them, raise enough money and save money for training of teachers and other resources.

WikiBooks and its large user base could very quickly help to produce such texts which
could really make a difference ( I would start in Southern Africa where things are more stable
and then move North).

And we are workign from the inside - we are an organisation within AFrica
releasing books - its not a case of Europeans rocking up (again ;) and telling
everyone how its supposed to be done.

Just my 2 cents worth (well maybe a bit more).

Cheers,

Mark



>/ Anthere wrote:
/>/
/>>/ (...)
/>>/
/>>/ all asked for books. Only books. Not
/>>/ food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
/>>/ wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
/>>/ can't read french". But this is what they wanted
/>>/ nevertheless.
/>>/
/>>/ (...)
/>>/
/>>/ Computers in these villages is out of question. They
/>>/ have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
/>>/ long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
/>>/ local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
/>>/ sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
/>>/ email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
/>>/ in Tamanrasset.
/>>/
/>>/ There might be things to do no ?
/
On 5 Jan 2005, at 14:58, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>/ This is absolutely fascinating to me. Just really fascinating.
/>/
/>/ I think this is the kind of knowledge we have to have, knowledge of
/>/ real conditions in real places, in order to be able to help
/>/ effectively.
/>/
/>/ --Jimbo
/
Seconded.

Caution may be advised however:
If, say, we get something going and distribute books ''from France'',
this could easily be seen by local (Algerian) politicians/nationalists
as "some French-American organization is trying to subvert our
education system by hijacking our children's literacy development."
Very bad mojo/karma/blood. Yes, I agree with Anthere's (implied)
suggestions, but if we even try to do something, we should be very
diplomatic about it and thread very carefully. Make sure our
non-affiliation and charitable nature is very much known and possibly
involve the (Algerian) national through local government and/or kindly
ask them for advice or even permission. Make sure our attitude does NOT
get to be: "What a crappy country and f*&ked-up government/education
system. Heck, we can do this SO much better." And make sure local (ie.
Algerian) people KNOW that that's not our attitude. Just asking people
nicely and showing them that we fully respect them will often work
wonders. And make sure that they know that they can become Wikipedians,
too.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
www.ropersonline.com


--
--
Mark Horner
Jabber/AIM/Yahoo: marknewlyn

Co-author:
http://www.nongnu.org/fhsst
http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/fhsst

"Life is but a seg-fault away ...

Life received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x42074d40 in calloc () from /lib/i686/liblife.so.6"
Re: Languages and education [ In reply to ]
Jens Ropers a écrit:
>> Anthere wrote:
>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>> all asked for books. Only books. Not
>>> food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
>>> wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
>>> can't read french". But this is what they wanted
>>> nevertheless.
>>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>> Computers in these villages is out of question. They
>>> have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
>>> long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
>>> local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
>>> sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
>>> email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
>>> in Tamanrasset.
>>>
>>> There might be things to do no ?
>>
>
> On 5 Jan 2005, at 14:58, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>> This is absolutely fascinating to me. Just really fascinating.
>>
>> I think this is the kind of knowledge we have to have, knowledge of
>> real conditions in real places, in order to be able to help
>> effectively.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>
>
> Seconded.
>
> Caution may be advised however:
> If, say, we get something going and distribute books ''from France'',
> this could easily be seen by local (Algerian) politicians/nationalists
> as "some French-American organization is trying to subvert our education
> system by hijacking our children's literacy development." Very bad
> mojo/karma/blood. Yes, I agree with Anthere's (implied) suggestions, but
> if we even try to do something, we should be very diplomatic about it
> and thread very carefully. Make sure our non-affiliation and charitable
> nature is very much known and possibly involve the (Algerian) national
> through local government and/or kindly ask them for advice or even
> permission. Make sure our attitude does NOT get to be: "What a crappy
> country and f*&ked-up government/education system. Heck, we can do this
> SO much better." And make sure local (ie. Algerian) people KNOW that
> that's not our attitude. Just asking people nicely and showing them that
> we fully respect them will often work wonders. And make sure that they
> know that they can become Wikipedians, too.
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
> www.ropersonline.com

To go further in what you say...

One guy in our group has been to this place many times already. Well, he
worked there for a long time in infrastructure. He told me there is
currently an undergoing work intending to have some french people train
algerian teachers to teach french. I can actually understand that a
village of 500 inhabitants does not necessarily have a teacher good
enough in french to teach it efficiently. My own english teachers were
far from great sometimes :-)
Though backshish does not really exist at "lower" levels in Algeria,
these people trying to organise training had to "participate" heavily at
"upper" level :-(
Though the Algerian government has been trying for many years to strip
anything french from their country (in particular the language, from
education, administration etc...) (it is just a factual comment, not a
criticism, it is extremely understandable reaction from a country just
liberated from colonialism), a reform is under way in the education system.

The education system reform is such that french is taught two years
sooner than before, english teaching is also one year sooner and more
room is given to Tamazight. This goes along with other changes, and if I
remember well, the Algerian government recently decided to try to get
nearer France than before. There seems to be a wish to really maintain
the multilingualism of the country. In any cases, the main three points
are 1) the education system is not working very well 2) a reform is
under way and this reform intends to leave more room to
french/english/tamazight and 3) they apparently lack educational resources.

Now it sure would be wrong I think that the previous colonial country or
the current (add any description of the USA that might fit in your
opinion here) appears overbearing/critical etc...
Similarly, one of the book I had available when I was over there was a
sort of children tales from the Bible. Stories from ancient books.
Believe it or not, I DID NOT offer the Bible to these 100% muslim kids.
I do not think it would have been appreciated, even if the stories are
real nice and adapted to their age ;-)

Obviously Algerian teachers and Algerian decision makers should be
involved one way or another. In any cases, Algeria is a policy state, so
you do not import things just as you wish (I will avoid telling you much
about the 2 hours we spent in a gendarmerie in Ideles, JUST because we
needed to purchase matches, bread and coffee in the village after 10
days in the wild. The gendarmes did not need to check who we were, we
were obviously not illegal traders hiding ourselves behind our 8 kids
age 3 to 13. Nevertheless, they checked :-)). Very gentle people, but I
wonder if their bureaucracy might not be worse than the french one.


Possibly as well, if we were thinking of books (thinking wikijunior
books we are currently trying to do), we could envision them to be
bilingual or trilingual. Or at least, we could envision to distribute
books in different languages. Having the books include arab resource
might help.

The arabic wikipedia is quite small as well, but it exists and ar
wikipedians should get involved. They need certainly to be slightly
bigger. As soon as ar is involved, and arabs leaving there are involved,
there should not be so much fear of a sort of imperialism/colonialism. I
hope.

Just thoughts.
Re: Languages and education [ In reply to ]
Well, this is all really interesting. This is exactly what we need.I looked at your website, and quickly at two of the books, and I was really impressed.
I was impressed by the amount of work by a relative little number of people... but I also thought of one of our french editor, a retiree, currently importing the entirety of his courses on "tribologie" (lubricants) in wikipedia/wikibooks.

We indeed may have a huge amount of knowledge in the encyclopedia, but to do textbooks, we need to stick to the local curriculum, and this can basically only be done by a local teacher/professor (local is related to nation in my mind :)). They exactly know how to organise the book and which content to fit in.

And this is precisely what you are doing...

I would like to know more about how your organisation intends to finance these books, and MOSTLY what you can foresee in terms of distribution.

Are you on irc so that we can discuss this real time ?

Anthere

------

Hi everyone

I would like to add a little to this discussion.

I am from South Africa, which is one of the African
countries in better shape, though things are not
completely rosey.

Africa, in general, is in a bad way (really bad
depending on where you look, Darfur, Congo, Liberia,
etc.) but I think that for once there is really a glimmer
of hope. For the first time African's have been trying,
I'll admit success is still way off, to solve Africa's
problems. Its not possible to do it alone but the mindset
has finally changed. I am prepared to discuss this at length but
its not the purpose of my email - I just want to set a scene.

In Southern Africa there is peace for the first time. Angola's
civil war very recently ended, Namibia is peaceful, Botswana has no
prospects of war, Mozambique fought itself to a standstill and now
there is peace (peace != schools, money, infrastructure etc.), Swaziland
and Lesotho are also peaceful and so is South Africa. Zimbabwe has
some issues but largely Southern Africa is stable and so now is the
prime opportunity to lay a foundation for lasting peace which will hopefully
spread north.

How does this tie in with your discussion, well I feel that a key
area for solid peace is to stimulate education - Africa needs teachers,
doctors, engineers, nurses etc. and the best thing for Africa is that
they come from Africa and not be visitors as part of an international
aid program (I think that aid is very necessary but its just not a sustainable
solution).

So languages and education - well an organisation like wikimedia can help
a stack with education. No computers in rural villages I agree but I have shown
that (http://www.nongnu.org/fhsst) science textbooks can be reduced in cost
by an order of magnitude. This can only help stretch those limited education
budgets in Africa much further. The content we have written as part of FHSST
will be migrated into WikiBooks very soon - I am working on it but Latex2Wiki
isn't the simplest mapping I've ever seen.

Due to the colonies that once existed free textbooks in English, French and Portuguese
could make a huge impact across Africa. If they are cheap (we estimate $3 per copy of
our Physics book - hard colour cover and bound) then its easier to distribute
them, raise enough money and save money for training of teachers and other resources.

WikiBooks and its large user base could very quickly help to produce such texts which
could really make a difference ( I would start in Southern Africa where things are more stable
and then move North).

And we are workign from the inside - we are an organisation within AFrica
releasing books - its not a case of Europeans rocking up (again ;) and telling
everyone how its supposed to be done.

Just my 2 cents worth (well maybe a bit more).

Cheers,

Mark




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