Mailing List Archive: Proposal for Wikikids

Proposal for Wikikids

Jan 3, 2005, 3:02 AM

Post #1 of 7 (1024 views)

Dear all,

I want to start a new Wikiproject called Wikikids. After a starting phase
it should be a Wikipedia from children for children. The following proposal
I posted at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids an
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_new_projects#Wikikids but
there seems to be no reaction. It would be great if we can discuss this at
the projects discussion page at Meta.

Wikikids should be a Wikipedia-version for children aged between eight an
sixteen years. After a starting phase when adults will construct the Wiki
together with children it should be a Wikipedia from children for children.
The idea is to have articles in a simple language without much scientific
words and other stuff. The themes should be specific for children´s interests.

The idea occured in the german Wikipedia a couple of months ago. There are
a lot of ideas and problems to discuss as well. But there´s no way to solve
them in a theoretical way so it will be perfect to have a start and take a
look what will grow in it.

The starting phase

As a new project Wikikids will have the same starting problems any other
project has too. It is thought, that Wikikids will be a Wikipedia in the
full control of kids between 8 and 16 years old and also the sysos of this
project will be children too. At the starting phase there will be some
adults to help constructing the Wiki and get a start in writing the
articles, but that should be as long as there are enough children to take
control. From that time on, adults will be allowed to write articles
inbetween the rules of Wikikids (first of all: simple language), but they
will be users like any others under the control of children administration.

Problems

There are some problems to be discussed, but I think, it will be possible
to handle them. For example there should be the problems of
* what is an encyclopedia, what kind of aricles should be find in an
encyclopedia?
* how about the copyrights of articles and pictures?
* ...

Articles

A lot of articles should be interesting for children and should be found in
the Wikikids. Some examples may be:
* Information about school
* Sports
* Animals
* Collecting Stamps etc.
* Computer and Computergames
* Games like "Magic, The Gathering", "Pokémon" ...
* Musik and Bands
* Television
* Love (how about Sex fundamentals)

Internationality

Like all other Wikimedia projects this project should be an international
linkd one. For a start, there would be a german project (there are enough
people to start) an maybe an englisch one, bur it will grow like Wikipedia.
Interwiki should be able to other Wikikids and Wikipedia.

Greetings from Berlin, Germany

Achim Raschka aka Necrophorus

Re: Proposal for Wikikids [ In reply to ]

saintonge at telus

Jan 3, 2005, 12:31 PM

Post #2 of 7 (1011 views)

Permalink

Achim Raschka wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I want to start a new Wikiproject called Wikikids. After a starting
> phase it should be a Wikipedia from children for children. The
> following proposal I posted at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids
> an http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_new_projects#Wikikids
> but there seems to be no reaction. It would be great if we can discuss
> this at the projects discussion page at Meta.
>
> Wikikids should be a Wikipedia-version for children aged between eight
> an sixteen years. After a starting phase when adults will construct
> the Wiki together with children it should be a Wikipedia from children
> for children. The idea is to have articles in a simple language
> without much scientific words and other stuff. The themes should be
> specific for children´s interests.
>
> As a new project Wikikids will have the same starting problems any
> other project has too. It is thought, that Wikikids will be a
> Wikipedia in the full control of kids between 8 and 16 years old and
> also the sysos of this project will be children too. At the starting
> phase there will be some adults to help constructing the Wiki and get
> a start in writing the articles, but that should be as long as there
> are enough children to take control. From that time on, adults will be
> allowed to write articles inbetween the rules of Wikikids (first of
> all: simple language), but they will be users like any others under
> the control of children administration.
>
> Problems
>
> There are some problems to be discussed, but I think, it will be
> possible to handle them. For example there should be the problems of
> * what is an encyclopedia, what kind of aricles should be find in
> an encyclopedia?
> * how about the copyrights of articles and pictures?
> * ...

One major problem that is not mentioned, is how do you know when someone
is between 8 and 16 years old, except when they tell you. I am long
past 16, but what's to prevent me from saying that I qualify. How can
this be reconciled with the right to edit anonymously, which is one of
the important features of a wiki.

Ec

Re: Proposal for Wikikids [ In reply to ]

ropers at ropersonline

Jan 3, 2005, 2:32 PM

Post #3 of 7 (1015 views)

Permalink

On 3 Jan 2005, at 20:31, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Achim Raschka wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I want to start a new Wikiproject called Wikikids.
>> (...)
>
> One major problem that is not mentioned, is how do you know when
> someone is between 8 and 16 years old, except when they tell you. I
> am long past 16, but what's to prevent me from saying that I qualify.
> How can this be reconciled with the right to edit anonymously, which
> is one of the important features of a wiki.
>
> Ec

Yea.
Plus, there's the danger of pedophiles happily (ab)using such a place
as a grooming ground.
It's bad enough that Wikipedia had to face past (or still ongoing?)
onslaughts by POV crusading pedophiles seeking to sneak their sexually
deviant views into the mainstream. Or am I too paranoid and
pessimistic?

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
www.ropersonline.com

Proposal for Wikikids [ In reply to ]

necrophorus at gmx

Jan 3, 2005, 2:49 PM

Post #4 of 7 (1012 views)

Permalink

Hello again

>One major problem that is not mentioned, is how do you know when someone
>is between 8 and 16 years old, except when they tell you. I am long
>past 16, but what's to prevent me from saying that I qualify. How can
>this be reconciled with the right to edit anonymously, which is one of
>the important features of a wiki.
>
>Ec

I really don´t see this problem. adults should work in that Wiki but they
don´t have to get the control of it, that´s the point. There is no problem
if some adults write articles for the project. You will always have the
problem of Trolls and other folk, but I think it can be managed if enough
"normal" users will control the Wiki. In my opinion it´s easier to handle
than the NPOV-problem in Winkinews or the non-scientitific systematics in
Wikispecies (sorry, I´m phylogenist).

>Yea.
>Plus, there's the danger of pedophiles happily (ab)using such a place
>as a grooming ground.
>It's bad enough that Wikipedia had to face past (or still ongoing?)
>onslaughts by POV crusading pedophiles seeking to sneak their sexually
>deviant views into the mainstream. Or am I too paranoid and
>pessimistic?
>
>-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
> www.ropersonline.com

I think, this way to look at the project ist too paranoid, but you´re right
if you say we need a mechanism to handle the chance of sexual and perverse
stuff. I think, there are great differences in how to handle in the
different languages so germans normally are very liberal with Sex. There
has to be a discussion about the problem and there has to be a result to
handle it, but I don´t see that it isn´t to handle. Maybe I´m too optimistic?

Greetings
Achim aka Necrophorus

Re: Proposal for Wikikids [ In reply to ]

saintonge at telus

Jan 3, 2005, 5:19 PM

Post #5 of 7 (1016 views)

Permalink

Achim Raschka wrote:

> Hello again
>
>> One major problem that is not mentioned, is how do you know when someone
>> is between 8 and 16 years old, except when they tell you. I am long
>> past 16, but what's to prevent me from saying that I qualify. How can
>> this be reconciled with the right to edit anonymously, which is one of
>> the important features of a wiki.
>>
>> Ec
>
> I really don´t see this problem. adults should work in that Wiki but
> they don´t have to get the control of it, that´s the point. There is
> no problem if some adults write articles for the project. You will
> always have the problem of Trolls and other folk, but I think it can
> be managed if enough "normal" users will control the Wiki. In my
> opinion it´s easier to handle than the NPOV-problem in Winkinews or
> the non-scientitific systematics in Wikispecies (sorry, I´m phylogenist).
>
>> Yea.
>> Plus, there's the danger of pedophiles happily (ab)using such a place
>> as a grooming ground.
>> It's bad enough that Wikipedia had to face past (or still ongoing?)
>> onslaughts by POV crusading pedophiles seeking to sneak their sexually
>> deviant views into the mainstream. Or am I too paranoid and
>> pessimistic?
>
> I think, this way to look at the project ist too paranoid, but you´re
> right if you say we need a mechanism to handle the chance of sexual
> and perverse stuff. I think, there are great differences in how to
> handle in the different languages so germans normally are very liberal
> with Sex. There has to be a discussion about the problem and there has
> to be a result to handle it, but I don´t see that it isn´t to handle.
> Maybe I´m too optimistic?

We are dealing with two different groups here. The POV warrior, the
troll and the pornographer want their effort to be seen. For some the
thrill is in the fight. It's quite the opposite for the pedophile. His
editing activity will avoid controversy. On matters of interest to
children he will want to blend in as a cool member of the community
providing just the kind of information that kids want. He wants to build
confidence so that the kids will feel at ease to meet him when he's ready.

Ec

Re: Proposal for Wikikids [ In reply to ]

ropers at ropersonline

Jan 3, 2005, 6:38 PM

Post #6 of 7 (1016 views)

Permalink

On 4 Jan 2005, at 01:19, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> We are dealing with two different groups here. The POV warrior, the
> troll and the pornographer want their effort to be seen. For some the
> thrill is in the fight. It's quite the opposite for the pedophile.
> His editing activity will avoid controversy. On matters of interest to
> children he will want to blend in as a cool member of the community
> providing just the kind of information that kids want. He wants to
> build confidence so that the kids will feel at ease to meet him when
> he's ready.
>
> Ec

True, but there's also those pedophile editors who (probably under a
different user identity than they would use for grooming) persistently
seek to insert their a POV into relevant articles. These kind of
pedophiles seek to promote memes sympathetic to their sexual deviance.
A pedophile contributor might for example promote views such as: "if a
minor consents, then no harm is being done" or "children may say 'no'
but not really mean it" [1]. Their aim is to make their sexual
aberration socially acceptable. Which means they have an agenda. In
other words: they are POV warriors. However, a pedophile POV warrior
may try to take the *sneaky* rather than the head-on dispute approach.
If I recall correctly, there were precisely such problems (with
pedophile POV edits) in the past -- in fact, a cursory check reveals
that [[Childlove movement]] currently has a "disputed neutrality"
disclaimer on it and a rather long talk page.

----
[1] I made up these quotes though; a real pedophile POV inserter would
probably never put things that bluntly--far too easily detected.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
www.ropersonline.com

Re: Proposal for Wikikids [ In reply to ]

robin.shannon at gmail

Jan 4, 2005, 1:33 AM

Post #7 of 7 (1009 views)

Permalink

Hows about we get crackin' on the wikijuior project first and try to
make it a succes, and from it some valuable answers to some of the
concerns with wikikids may present themselves.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:19:57 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge@telus.net> wrote:
> We are dealing with two different groups here. The POV warrior, the
> troll and the pornographer want their effort to be seen. For some the
> thrill is in the fight. It's quite the opposite for the pedophile. His
> editing activity will avoid controversy. On matters of interest to
> children he will want to blend in as a cool member of the community
> providing just the kind of information that kids want. He wants to build
> confidence so that the kids will feel at ease to meet him when he's ready.
>
> Ec

...or she.

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade@jabber.zim.net.au

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