Mailing List Archive

Michael,

Interesting out of the box thinking but I believe any funds at the
foundation that we have DO make a real change in the world. In 21 years,
we've changed the way computing happens.

There is far too much misinformation. The only reconfiguring of boxes is
years away when 4.1 is released. Everything is backwards compatible with
aliases and we've got rules published that work for 3.3.1 to 3.4.X. And
even if you use 4.0, you will be able to change 1 byte in the code and get
the previous rule names.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 4:45 PM Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com>
wrote:

> I'd like to offer a constructive solution to the blacklist/whitelist
> argument to the Apache foundation and Kevin in particular.
>
> There is opposition to this change on at least two fronts:
>
> * Philosophical: the change does nothing to address the underlying
> political problems. Black people are asking not to be murdered;
> changing "blacklist" to "blocklist" as the sole response is
> insulting and transparently virtue signaling.
>
> * Practical: the gesture costs the Apache foundation nothing, because
> the "gift" is paid for by the labor of the users who have to
> reconfigure their systems.
>
> Whether or not you agree with those bullet points, here's what I propose
> to address them...
>
> The Apache foundation has some cash laying around. Make whatever wording
> changes you like, but **at the same time**, donate a meaningful amount
> of money to a cause like the ACLU or the defense/medical funds for the
> protestors. This addresses the bullet points above:
>
> * The donation is of real value to the people who receive it, and
> addresses the underlying problem in that it helps the people who are
> themselves helping in more direct ways.
>
> * The donation is also of value to the donor, so cannot be considered
> a token gesture.
>
> This will not be free for users: we will all still have to reconfigure
> our systems. But if that "wasted" time actually helps the stated cause,
> then it's no longer wasted. Knowing that an hour in my text editor may
> have helped someone get out of jail or replace an eyeball shot out by a
> federal goon makes it much more palatable. In other words, people might
> still think it's stupid, but could be willing to suck it up if the
> Apache foundation puts its money where its mouth is.
>
> This surely won't please everyone, but it may be satisfactory to a
> majority of people on both sides. Also, it will stop the email threads.
>
>

On Thursday 23 July 2020 at 22:44:51, Michael Orlitzky wrote:

> The Apache foundation has some cash laying around. Make whatever wording
> changes you like, but **at the same time**, donate a meaningful amount
> of money to a cause like the ACLU or the defense/medical funds for the
> protestors.

Don't you have that the wrong way around?

All these IT companies, groups and foundations who are changing their wording
to make the world a better place are doing what the ACLU has been trying to do
for years, so surely the ACLU should be funding the IT support people who have
to deal with the extra workload of managing these changes?

The oppressed societal groups get the improvement they've been waiting for,
the ACLU doesn't have to work so hard, and the IT support staff get compensated
for the extra work they have to do for the benefit of society.

Of course, that model all breaks down if you don't really believe that these
changes are going to make the world a better place, or that the oppressed
societal groups are not in fact going to be better off as a result of changing
the word black to block an an email filtering system, but nobody really thinks
that, do they?

Note for those challenged by sarcasm or irony: I do not agree with the change
and I do not think it will have the effects it is being done in the name of.


Antony.

--
"Good health" is merely the slowest rate at which you can die.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.

Political correctness, BLM and Antifa (LGBTQ) as well as feminism (and
many other agendas) are being used as battering rams to destroy western
culture and usher in Marxist global governance. The real agenda isn't
"getting along" it's quite the opposite.

On 7/23/2020 4:41 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Thursday 23 July 2020 at 22:44:51, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>
>> The Apache foundation has some cash laying around. Make whatever wording
>> changes you like, but **at the same time**, donate a meaningful amount
>> of money to a cause like the ACLU or the defense/medical funds for the
>> protestors.
> Don't you have that the wrong way around?
>
> All these IT companies, groups and foundations who are changing their wording
> to make the world a better place are doing what the ACLU has been trying to do
> for years, so surely the ACLU should be funding the IT support people who have
> to deal with the extra workload of managing these changes?
>
> The oppressed societal groups get the improvement they've been waiting for,
> the ACLU doesn't have to work so hard, and the IT support staff get compensated
> for the extra work they have to do for the benefit of society.
>
> Of course, that model all breaks down if you don't really believe that these
> changes are going to make the world a better place, or that the oppressed
> societal groups are not in fact going to be better off as a result of changing
> the word black to block an an email filtering system, but nobody really thinks
> that, do they?
>
> Note for those challenged by sarcasm or irony: I do not agree with the change
> and I do not think it will have the effects it is being done in the name of.
>
>
> Antony.
>

BLM thanks Eric Broch for his continued support.

If you pass on your address, I'll be sure to tell them to send you a
postcard in thanks for your donation.

Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> writes:

> Political correctness, BLM and Antifa (LGBTQ) as well as feminism (and
> many other agendas) are being used as battering rams to destroy western
> culture and usher in Marxist global governance. The real agenda isn't
> "getting along" it's quite the opposite.
>
> On 7/23/2020 4:41 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
>> On Thursday 23 July 2020 at 22:44:51, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>
>>> The Apache foundation has some cash laying around. Make whatever wording
>>> changes you like, but **at the same time**, donate a meaningful amount
>>> of money to a cause like the ACLU or the defense/medical funds for the
>>> protestors.
>> Don't you have that the wrong way around?
>>
>> All these IT companies, groups and foundations who are changing their wording
>> to make the world a better place are doing what the ACLU has been trying to do
>> for years, so surely the ACLU should be funding the IT support people who have
>> to deal with the extra workload of managing these changes?
>>
>> The oppressed societal groups get the improvement they've been waiting for,
>> the ACLU doesn't have to work so hard, and the IT support staff get compensated
>> for the extra work they have to do for the benefit of society.
>>
>> Of course, that model all breaks down if you don't really believe that these
>> changes are going to make the world a better place, or that the oppressed
>> societal groups are not in fact going to be better off as a result of changing
>> the word black to block an an email filtering system, but nobody really thinks
>> that, do they?
>>
>> Note for those challenged by sarcasm or irony: I do not agree with the change
>> and I do not think it will have the effects it is being done in the name of.
>>
>>
>> Antony.
>>
--
micah

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>
> Political correctness, BLM and Antifa (LGBTQ) as well as feminism (and many other agendas) are being used as battering rams to destroy western culture and usher in Marxist global governance. The real agenda isn't "getting along" it's quite the opposite.
>
> On 7/23/2020 4:41 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
>> On Thursday 23 July 2020 at 22:44:51, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>
>>> The Apache foundation has some cash laying around. Make whatever wording
>>> changes you like, but **at the same time**, donate a meaningful amount
>>> of money to a cause like the ACLU or the defense/medical funds for the
>>> protestors.
>> Don't you have that the wrong way around?
>>
>> All these IT companies, groups and foundations who are changing their wording
>> to make the world a better place are doing what the ACLU has been trying to do
>> for years, so surely the ACLU should be funding the IT support people who have
>> to deal with the extra workload of managing these changes?
>>
>> The oppressed societal groups get the improvement they've been waiting for,
>> the ACLU doesn't have to work so hard, and the IT support staff get compensated
>> for the extra work they have to do for the benefit of society.
>>
>> Of course, that model all breaks down if you don't really believe that these
>> changes are going to make the world a better place, or that the oppressed
>> societal groups are not in fact going to be better off as a result of changing
>> the word black to block an an email filtering system, but nobody really thinks
>> that, do they?
>>
>> Note for those challenged by sarcasm or irony: I do not agree with the change
>> and I do not think it will have the effects it is being done in the name of.
>>
>>
>> Antony.
>>

That reminds me:

Eric, BLM and all the good Marxists and community organizers, and those who think the people that talk about “the decline of western civilization” hold some very questionable values about folks that don’t look like them, I’d like to thank you on behalf of all these organizations for the generous donation you have inspired:

https://imgur.com/a/Ccwj0Li

> On Jul 23, 2020, at 8:12 PM, Charles Sprickman <spork@bway.net> wrote:
>
> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
>
>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Political correctness, BLM and Antifa (LGBTQ) as well as feminism (and many other agendas) are being used as battering rams to destroy western culture and usher in Marxist global governance. The real agenda isn't "getting along" it's quite the opposite.
>>
>> On 7/23/2020 4:41 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
>>> On Thursday 23 July 2020 at 22:44:51, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Apache foundation has some cash laying around. Make whatever wording
>>>> changes you like, but **at the same time**, donate a meaningful amount
>>>> of money to a cause like the ACLU or the defense/medical funds for the
>>>> protestors.
>>> Don't you have that the wrong way around?
>>>
>>> All these IT companies, groups and foundations who are changing their wording
>>> to make the world a better place are doing what the ACLU has been trying to do
>>> for years, so surely the ACLU should be funding the IT support people who have
>>> to deal with the extra workload of managing these changes?
>>>
>>> The oppressed societal groups get the improvement they've been waiting for,
>>> the ACLU doesn't have to work so hard, and the IT support staff get compensated
>>> for the extra work they have to do for the benefit of society.
>>>
>>> Of course, that model all breaks down if you don't really believe that these
>>> changes are going to make the world a better place, or that the oppressed
>>> societal groups are not in fact going to be better off as a result of changing
>>> the word black to block an an email filtering system, but nobody really thinks
>>> that, do they?
>>>
>>> Note for those challenged by sarcasm or irony: I do not agree with the change
>>> and I do not think it will have the effects it is being done in the name of.
>>>
>>>
>>> Antony.
>>>
>

>> you will be able to change 1 byte in the code and get the previous
rule names.

This sounds to me like putting somewhere the character 0 or 1, which
means that blacklist and whitelist words are still defined somewhere in
the code. Is that not what started the discussion?

But none the less, a one byte change sounds quite good. (Not that I had
a technical argument anyway)

On 7/24/2020 3:59 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
> >> you will be able to change 1 byte in the code and get the previous
> rule names.
>
> This sounds to me like putting somewhere the character 0 or 1, which
> means that blacklist and whitelist words are still defined somewhere in
> the code. Is that not what started the discussion?

I'd say too many people without merit and knowledge of the project
spouting off building on misinformation and rants more fitting for a
racist channel on 4chan would be my analysis of what started the discussion.

Backwards compatibility through at least a future release of SA 4.1 has
always been announced as part of the plan.  See
https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826

Regards,

KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
KMcGrail@Apache.org

Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On 25/07/2020 04:03, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> I'd say too many people without merit and knowledge of the project
> spouting off building on misinformation and rants more fitting for a
> racist channel on 4chan would be my analysis of what started the discussion.

here we go again, attacking people calling them racists and radical
extremists because we wont roll over and bow to your american political
dictatorship, you act as has been shown here with no thought to others
or consequences to others, you act without even understanding of what
the colour based terms are and where they came from, if you actually did
any research into this (which you admit you did not) youd realise that.

There are 192 _other_ countries in the world, the USA is united states
of america, not united states of world - get used to pushbacks from
those who are sick of the USA pushing their views and values on to
others because of their own failings, especially when you cant even
protect your own kids from mass murder at hands of gun nuts, when you
can, THEN you can come here and beat your chest about how great a nation
you are.

Noel Butler <noel.butler@ausics.net> writes:

[weird rant deleted]

> There are 192 _other_ countries in the world, the USA is united states

There are 194 other countries in the world.

--
micah

On 7/24/2020 6:00 PM, Noel Butler wrote:
>
> On 25/07/2020 04:03, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>
>>
>> I'd say too many people without merit and knowledge of the project
>> spouting off building on misinformation and rants more fitting for a
>> racist channel on 4chan would be my analysis of what started the
>> discussion.
> here we go again, attacking people calling them racists and radical
> extremists because we wont roll over and bow to your american
> political dictatorship, you act as has been shown here with no thought
> to others or consequences to others, you act without even
> understanding of what the colour based terms are and where they came
> from, if you actually did any research into this (which you admit you
> did not) youd realise that.
> There are 192 _other_ countries in the world, the USA is united states
> of america, not united states of world - get used to pushbacks from
> those who are sick of the USA pushing their views and values on to
> others because of their own failings, especially when you cant even
> protect your own kids from mass murder at hands of gun nuts, when you
> can, THEN you can come here and beat your chest about how great a
> nation you are.
>
>
Practically, the U.S., its politicians and citizens, have embraced every
plank of the Communist Manifesto. I cannot belief how fast the delusion
has set in here. This is no longer a Constitutional Republic but has
been taken over by Marxists and their ideology, Marxism is not benign
but malignant. This is why the whole world feels pressure from the U.S.
if not by open warfare by sanctions, or revolutionaries released on your
streets. Your politicians and media are bought off and controlled by the
CIA.

The delusion is so complete that as we see with the S.A. project no
shots will be fired. In soviet fashion the agenda is perpetrated.

Dear everybody,

Could we please "cut the crap" and stop with all the polictics.

SpamAssassin is a fantastic piece of software in reducing the amount of spam which gets into our inboxes. I do thank Kevin and everybody contributing for their past, present and future work.

I do not like the proposed change, because of greylisting. What is between a welcomelist and a blocklist?

I would have liked it much more if the colors of a traffic light were chosen (greenlist, amberlist, redlist). That also would create posibilities like "very dark amber" (= almost red)

For instance every mail from a .icu domain would be amber listed with me

Met vriendelijke groet, Best regards,


Thom van der Boon
E-Mail: thom@vdb.nl



Van: "Eric Broch" <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com>
Aan: "SA Mailing list" <users@spamassassin.apache.org>
Verzonden: Zaterdag 25 juli 2020 14:03:43
Onderwerp: Re: Constructive solution to the blacklist thread




On 7/24/2020 6:00 PM, Noel Butler wrote:




On 25/07/2020 04:03, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
BQ_BEGIN


I'd say too many people without merit and knowledge of the project
spouting off building on misinformation and rants more fitting for a
racist channel on 4chan would be my analysis of what started the discussion.



here we go again, attacking people calling them racists and radical extremists because we wont roll over and bow to your american political dictatorship, you act as has been shown here with no thought to others or consequences to others, you act without even understanding of what the colour based terms are and where they came from, if you actually did any research into this (which you admit you did not) youd realise that.
There are 192 _other_ countries in the world, the USA is united states of america, not united states of world - get used to pushbacks from those who are sick of the USA pushing their views and values on to others because of their own failings, especially when you cant even protect your own kids from mass murder at hands of gun nuts, when you can, THEN you can come here and beat your chest about how great a nation you are.




BQ_END


Practically, the U.S., its politicians and citizens, have embraced every plank of the Communist Manifesto. I cannot belief how fast the delusion has set in here. This is no longer a Constitutional Republic but has been taken over by Marxists and their ideology, Marxism is not benign but malignant. This is why the whole world feels pressure from the U.S. if not by open warfare by sanctions, or revolutionaries released on your streets. Your politicians and media are bought off and controlled by the CIA.

The delusion is so complete that as we see with the S.A. project no shots will be fired. In soviet fashion the agenda is perpetrated.

On 25 Jul 2020, at 13:25, Thom van der Boon <thom@vdb.nl> wrote:
> Dear everybody,
>
> Could we please "cut the crap" and stop with all the polictics.

Yes, but starting a new thread that is attracting the same BS again is not going to help.

I already have a half-dozen threads muted and a few persistent posters actually killfiled, and now I will have a half-dozen and one as it has already attracted the same old crap.

I am very much looking forward to all the people claiming they are leaving spamassassin actually leaving.




--
"I can't see the point in the theatre. All that sex and violence. I
get enough of that at home. Apart from the sex, of course." -
Baldrick

On Sat, 25 Jul 2020, Thom van der Boon wrote:

> I do not like the proposed change, because of greylisting. What is between a welcomelist and a blocklist?

Delaylist, perhaps (based on the greylist milter), though that does not
connote "rating is ambiguous". Suspectlist, perhaps? I'm finding no good
words for that concept that also begin with "G".

> I would have liked it much more if the colors of a traffic light were
> chosen (greenlist, amberlist, redlist). That also would create
> posibilities like "very dark amber" (= almost red)

"welcomelist" and "blocklist" were in part chosen to avoid the need to
change acronyms and module names such as "WLBLEval" ("White" -> "Welcome"
and "Black" -> "Block") and thus avoid increasing the scope and impact of
this change even further.

If this project was being written from scratch, "red", "amber" and "green"
*would* be appropriate terminology to use for the concepts.

--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheep have only two speeds: graze and stampede. -- LTC Grossman
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
10 days until the 285th anniversary of John Peter Zenger's acquittal

* Thom van der Boon:

> I do not like the proposed change, because of greylisting. What is
> between a welcomelist and a blocklist?

Literally? White spaces. Also, to the imaginary racially offended crew
out there: I'll have you know that I will keep ordering black coffee,
even in public and in earshot of children.

you_may = MyBum().kiss

-Ralph