Mailing List Archive

Re: NetDEF Transparency?
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017, Martin Winter wrote:

> Sorry, if this broke. I didn’t see any mistake.

Like meeting with 3rd parties and making agreements to include code,
without involving anyone else in Quagga?

> David works for NetDEF/OpenSourceRouting. Was that ever a question?

He's not listed in your 990 filings for NetDEF:

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/462124970

(I have the invoices that correspond to the contracting fees in '14; I
also invoiced you for about £6k GBP in the first part of '15 - which is
more than the contracting amount listed for '15, though maybe half-ish
of the difference of the total salaries and the listed salaries).

So what is "OpenSourceRouting"? Is OpenSourceRouting a "project" of
NetDEF, or is it another company? You and the others go to a lot of
conferences, so ye can talk to lots of people, who pays for that?

You have argued for transparency. Let's be transparent.

BTW, when I started contracting for NetDEF, I was told Alistair was seed
funding it. What was the amount of that seed funding, and how much other
sponsorship came in and when?

Note: I low-balled my contracting rates on the basis I was working for a
public-good 501(c)(3), that was still on private seed funding and didn't
have corporate sponsorship yet. I was a student writing up, past my
funding, and I needed part-time work to make ends meet. I stopped
talking to another commercial body, cause I believed in what NetDEF was
pitched to me as.

> And yes, he got kicked out by you

That is an untruth.

> Not sure how this is relevant or even a secret. NetDEF (and
> OpenSourceRouting is a project of NetDEF) is the answer to all of
> this. Never tried to hide this and not sure where the confusion is?

So, who is OpenSourceRouting then? Is that a 501(c)(3) too?

When I started with NetDEF, I was surprised to learn ye already had a
good bit of ongoing work. Was that NetDEF, or OpenSourceRouting, or ??

> BTW: For full transparency, would be still good to announce changes
> like this to the list.

Yes, full transparency, /me claps. Can we?

If you don't want a fight, don't come here and pick one.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
They are relatively good but absolutely terrible.
-- Alan Kay, commenting on Apollos
Re: NetDEF Transparency? [ In reply to ]
On 12 Jan 2017, at 14:05, Paul Jakma wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jan 2017, Martin Winter wrote:
>
>> Sorry, if this broke. I didn’t see any mistake.
>
> Like meeting with 3rd parties and making agreements to include code,
> without involving anyone else in Quagga?

Huh? Please remind me where we did this? We made agreements on helping
to develop code and committed to
make the code public - up to submit it to the quagga community, but we
very VERY clear that the decision
to include is not us. The best we could offer is to get a good quality
of the code to increase the chance.

We NEVER promised to get anything included into Quagga as part of our
work.

>> David works for NetDEF/OpenSourceRouting. Was that ever a question?
>
> He's not listed in your 990 filings for NetDEF:
>
> https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/462124970
>
> (I have the invoices that correspond to the contracting fees in '14; I
> also invoiced you for about £6k GBP in the first part of '15 - which
> is more than the contracting amount listed for '15, though maybe
> half-ish of the difference of the total salaries and the listed
> salaries).

I can direct you to a tax person who can explain you who needs o be
listed or not. There are very specific requirements
on who to list or not to list. Not every employee is listed on this
form.
Go read up on instructions for this form. Or talk to a US Tax consultant
which knows how to deal with non-profits.

But this is completely irrelevant for this discussion.

> So what is "OpenSourceRouting"? Is OpenSourceRouting a "project" of
> NetDEF, or is it another company? You and the others go to a lot of
> conferences, so ye can talk to lots of people, who pays for that?

You could have read my other email. OpenSourceRouting is a project by
NetDEF. Nothing else. Not another company and
you should know this.

> You have argued for transparency. Let's be transparent.

I just asked for transparency to mention who got removed from the
security list. I didn’t question the
reasons. I just wanted to be the community aware of the changes.
Very simple requests. That’s what I call transparency in the
community.

> BTW, when I started contracting for NetDEF, I was told Alistair was
> seed funding it. What was the amount of that seed funding, and how
> much other sponsorship came in and when?
>
> Note: I low-balled my contracting rates on the basis I was working for
> a public-good 501(c)(3), that was still on private seed funding and
> didn't have corporate sponsorship yet. I was a student writing up,
> past my funding, and I needed part-time work to make ends meet. I
> stopped talking to another commercial body, cause I believed in what
> NetDEF was pitched to me as.

Look up the public records if you care about this. It’s all in there.
But I don’t see this relevant on the discussion on transparency of the
changes to the Quagga community.

>> And yes, he got kicked out by you
>
> That is an untruth.

I let this stand like this and suggest to everyone read the archives of
the list.
No point to respond here. And not relevant to this discussion.

>> Not sure how this is relevant or even a secret. NetDEF (and
>> OpenSourceRouting is a project of NetDEF) is the answer to all of
>> this. Never tried to hide this and not sure where the confusion is?
>
> So, who is OpenSourceRouting then? Is that a 501(c)(3) too?

OpenSourceRouting is a PROJECT of NetDEF. What part is not clear here?
It’s not a company, it’s just a single project.

> When I started with NetDEF, I was surprised to learn ye already had a
> good bit of ongoing work. Was that NetDEF, or OpenSourceRouting, or ??
>
>> BTW: For full transparency, would be still good to announce changes
>> like this to the list.
>
> Yes, full transparency, /me claps. Can we?
>
> If you don't want a fight, don't come here and pick one.

I only asked for transparency. I didn’t want to fight. You seem to be
interested in it.

I’ve asked on details of the changes to made public by someone who
knows (i.e. you, maybe others),
so the community is aware who is still working on security issues.

That’s all. I mentioned that this wasn’t about me and there is no
need to argue how I had to be kicked
out because I work for such an evil non-profit and dare to work on more
than one open source project.

You could have just responded that you made the decision to clean up the
list because you felt that
this and this and this person was no longer useful or wanted.
This would have been helpful for the community (The Quagga Community
which I still care about a lot)

Regards,
Martin Winter

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Re: NetDEF Transparency? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017, Martin Winter wrote:

> I can direct you to a tax person who can explain you who needs o be
> listed or not.

The money out covers only your salary and my contracting.

> You could have read my other email. OpenSourceRouting is a project by
> NetDEF. Nothing else. Not another company and you should know this.

I have no idea anymore what you are.

I ask again: Are you and/or Alistair and/or David officers, employees or
contractors for any other companies, or have been over last few years?

> I just asked for transparency to mention who got removed from the
> security list. I didn’t question the reasons. I just wanted to be the
> community aware of the changes. Very simple requests. That’s what I
> call transparency in the community.

Again, you have your fork. Why not go enjoy it?!

I'm happy to continue to talk to you about technical stuff on a
constructive basis.

However, if you come here making insinuations, and continue to try stir
up trouble in Quagga, as you've been doing for a long while then you
won't get a warm welcome. I may have been a very naïve idiot in the past
(and have made other mistakes, no doubt) about things, but I can learn.

So, again: Go enjoy your fork! If we have to fight, let's do it by
competing on the code.

But note very carefully: I'm no longer as naïve. I've learned, and I
will be keeping one ready in the chamber from now on, in case you come
back with more games.

Read me clear: Go enjoy your fork.

>> BTW, when I started contracting for NetDEF, I was told Alistair was seed
>> funding it. What was the amount of that seed funding, and how much other
>> sponsorship came in and when?

> Look up the public records if you care about this. It’s all in there.

I note that's a non-answer.

> I let this stand like this and suggest to everyone read the archives of the
> list.

I note that I David has the off-list email, and I bet you do too.

> OpenSourceRouting is a PROJECT of NetDEF. What part is not clear here? It’s
> not a company, it’s just a single project.

Again, the question was: What _other_ companies do you have?

> I only asked for transparency. I didn’t want to fight. You seem to be
> interested in it.

Did I go to your project and start trolling with insinuations about
transparency? No.

Hey, you havn't even got a public forum AFAIK. Where's my slack invite?

> I’ve asked on details of the changes to made public by someone who
> knows (i.e. you, maybe others), so the community is aware who is still
> working on security issues.

Wah wah wah.

Go enjoy your fork Martin. Why are you even here?

> That’s all. I mentioned that this wasn’t about me and there is no need
> to argue how I had to be kicked out because I work for such an evil
> non-profit and dare to work on more than one open source project.

I have 0 problems with:

1. For profits working on software.

2. Non-profits working on software, free or other wise.

3. Special status, tax-exempt non-profits working on free software.

4. People being sponsored or employed to work on software.

It's a free world, and that's how I like it, esp. for categories 1 and
2. Category 3 is special though.

My question here is:

- You and David have involved yourself in Quagga under the mantle of
'3', but have you got significant other business interests under some
category that you've not disclosed to the community?

If you won't answer that "transparently" (the word of the week), then my
strong advice to you, again, is:

Go and enjoy your code, and stop messing around here!

> You could have just responded that you made the decision to clean up
> the list because you felt that this and this and this person was no
> longer useful or wanted. This would have been helpful for the
> community (The Quagga Community which I still care about a lot)

Wah wah wah.

How many companies are you an officer of? What is their status and
purpose? Over the relevant period...

You're not going to answer that, so... Enjoy your fork! Happy to talk
tech. Quagga governance is no longer your concern - and hasn't been for
6 months at least.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
Mandrell: "You know what I think?"
Doctor: "Ah, ah that's a catch question. With a brain your size you
don't think, right?"
-- Dr. Who
Re: NetDEF Transparency? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017, Paul Jakma wrote:

>> I only asked for transparency. I didn’t want to fight. You seem to be
>> interested in it.
>
> Did I go to your project and start trolling with insinuations about
> transparency? No.

And I held fire in my first reply to you, and gave you a coded warning.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
Sorry about off-topic. I thought I was posting to Usenet.

- William Park on linux-kernel
Re: NetDEF Transparency? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017, Paul Jakma wrote:

> I'm happy to continue to talk to you about technical stuff on a
> constructive basis.

I'm also happy for you and other FRRers to contribute to Quagga, if you
stick to the technical stuff (I assume you won't - as you've got fixes
for commits of mine that you've not sent on). E.g., stay out of
community stuff.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
Yevtushenko has... an ego that can crack crystal at a distance of twenty feet.
-- John Cheever

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Quagga-dev@lists.quagga.net
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Re: NetDEF Transparency? [ In reply to ]
On 12 Jan 2017, at 18:40, Paul Jakma wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jan 2017, Martin Winter wrote:
>
>> I can direct you to a tax person who can explain you who needs o be
>> listed or not.
>
> The money out covers only your salary and my contracting.

And your point? This is a IRS tax document with weird requirements on
what to list or not. I
can’t make up things or report different for you. I have to follow the
IRS guidelines (and
we use professional help for this, because it’s weird for me too)

>> You could have read my other email. OpenSourceRouting is a project by
>> NetDEF. Nothing else. Not another company and you should know this.
>
> I have no idea anymore what you are.

I’m a person who wants a good high-quality open source routing stack
and works full-time on it.

> I ask again: Are you and/or Alistair and/or David officers, employees
> or contractors for any other companies, or have been over last few
> years?

And I ask again, what has this to do with a simple request to give a
quick announcement on changes
of a security list?
Action should all what matters.

>> I just asked for transparency to mention who got removed from the
>> security list. I didn’t question the reasons. I just wanted to be
>> the community aware of the changes. Very simple requests. That’s
>> what I call transparency in the community.
>
> Again, you have your fork. Why not go enjoy it?!
>
> I'm happy to continue to talk to you about technical stuff on a
> constructive basis.
>
> However, if you come here making insinuations, and continue to try
> stir up trouble in Quagga, as you've been doing for a long while then
> you won't get a warm welcome. I may have been a very naïve idiot in
> the past (and have made other mistakes, no doubt) about things, but I
> can learn.
>
> So, again: Go enjoy your fork! If we have to fight, let's do it by
> competing on the code.
>
> But note very carefully: I'm no longer as naïve. I've learned, and I
> will be keeping one ready in the chamber from now on, in case you come
> back with more games.
>
> Read me clear: Go enjoy your fork.
>
>>> BTW, when I started contracting for NetDEF, I was told Alistair was
>>> seed
>>> funding it. What was the amount of that seed funding, and how much
>>> other
>>> sponsorship came in and when?
>
>> Look up the public records if you care about this. It’s all in
>> there.
>
> I note that's a non-answer.

It’s NOT relevant for this discussion and you are just side-tracking
the whole discussion.

>> I let this stand like this and suggest to everyone read the archives
>> of the list.
>
> I note that I David has the off-list email, and I bet you do too.
>
>> OpenSourceRouting is a PROJECT of NetDEF. What part is not clear
>> here? It’s not a company, it’s just a single project.
>
> Again, the question was: What _other_ companies do you have?

None. Zero. Nada. Happy now? Can we get back to the main subject?

By forking, we accepted Quagga to be your project and we all accepted
your
wish on not changing the structure.

I’m accepting your wish to withdraw from Quagga testing as well if
this is
really is your wish.

- Martin


The rest on this email is really pointless for me to even respond.
Feel free to hate me (and NetDEF and everyone else who works on the
fork).
Again, I didn’t come for a fight, just for a clarification.


>> I only asked for transparency. I didn’t want to fight. You seem to
>> be interested in it.
>
> Did I go to your project and start trolling with insinuations about
> transparency? No.
>
> Hey, you havn't even got a public forum AFAIK. Where's my slack
> invite?
>
>> I’ve asked on details of the changes to made public by someone who
>> knows (i.e. you, maybe others), so the community is aware who is
>> still working on security issues.
>
> Wah wah wah.
>
> Go enjoy your fork Martin. Why are you even here?
>
>> That’s all. I mentioned that this wasn’t about me and there is no
>> need to argue how I had to be kicked out because I work for such an
>> evil non-profit and dare to work on more than one open source
>> project.
>
> I have 0 problems with:
>
> 1. For profits working on software.
>
> 2. Non-profits working on software, free or other wise.
>
> 3. Special status, tax-exempt non-profits working on free software.
>
> 4. People being sponsored or employed to work on software.
>
> It's a free world, and that's how I like it, esp. for categories 1 and
> 2. Category 3 is special though.
>
> My question here is:
>
> - You and David have involved yourself in Quagga under the mantle of
> '3', but have you got significant other business interests under
> some
> category that you've not disclosed to the community?
>
> If you won't answer that "transparently" (the word of the week), then
> my strong advice to you, again, is:
>
> Go and enjoy your code, and stop messing around here!
>
>> You could have just responded that you made the decision to clean up
>> the list because you felt that this and this and this person was no
>> longer useful or wanted. This would have been helpful for the
>> community (The Quagga Community which I still care about a lot)
>
> Wah wah wah.
>
> How many companies are you an officer of? What is their status and
> purpose? Over the relevant period...
>
> You're not going to answer that, so... Enjoy your fork! Happy to talk
> tech. Quagga governance is no longer your concern - and hasn't been
> for 6 months at least.
>
> regards,
> --
> Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
> Fortune:
> Mandrell: "You know what I think?"
> Doctor: "Ah, ah that's a catch question. With a brain your size you
> don't think, right?"
> -- Dr. Who

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