Rob,
There are lots of nifty features each of us might like and insist make much
more sense than what others say they want.
Sometimes the answer is to not satisfy most of those demands but provide
TOOLS they can use to do things for themselves.
As you agree, many of us have found all kinds of tools that help with
debugging and frankly, some of them use it to the point of annoying others
who would rather avoid them. An example is type hints that can get quite
detailed and obscure the outline of your program and are ignored by the
parser and only relevant for some linter or other such program.
I am thinking of what would happen if I created several fairly long or
complex data structures and tried to add them. Say I have a dictionary
containing millions of entries including every conceivable UNICODE character
as well as very complex values such as other dictionaries or strings
containing entire books. My other data structure might be a forest
containing many smaller trees, such as the output of some machine learning
models or perhaps showing every possible game of chess up to 50 moves deep
along with an evaluation of the relative strength of the board to one
player.
I then accidentally write code that contains:
big_dic + forest_trees
Would I like my error message consume all the paper in my city (or scroll my
screen for a week) as it tells me a dict cannot be added to a forest and by
the way, here is a repr of each of them showing the current (highly
recursive) contents.
Now people have written functions that take something long and truncate it
so a list containing [1, 2, 3, ... 1_000_000] is shown in this condensed
form with the rest missing, but then someone will complain they are not
seeing all of it!
So the deal is to use your TOOLS. You can run a debugger or add print
statements or enclose it in a try/catch to keep it from stopping the program
and other techniques. You can examine the objects carefully just before, or
even after and do cautious things like ask for the length and then maybe ask
for the first few and last few items, or whatever makes sense.
In the original example, we were first asked about print(a + b) and later
given a somewhat weirder func(x, y, x +y) as examples. Now ask what order
things are evaluated and where the error happens. What is known by the party
handling the error?
If you put the offending statement in a try/catch scenario, then when the
error is triggered, YOU wrote the code that catches the exception and you
can often examine the payload of the exception, or know that the arguments
of a or b or x or y were involved and you can craft your own output to be
more clear. Or, you can even sometimes fix the problem and redo the code
using something like float(x) or str(y).
My impression here is that the error is not on the surface but caught
deeper. The symbols used may be x and y but what if we work with "12" + 13
and follow what happens?
Since the interpreter in python evaluates x+y before calling the function
using the result as an argument, the function never sees anything. What
should happen is that the interpreter sees a "12" which is normally an
object of a class of str and then it sees a "+" and then it sees anything
that follows as a second object it ignores for now. Python does not have a
fully defined operator that it invokes when it sees a "+" as the meaning
depends on what object is being asked to do whatever plus means to it. For a
string argument, it means concatenate to your current content and return a
new str object. The way that happens is that the class (or a relative) has
defined a method called __add__() or it hasn't. If it has, it takes an
argument of the second object and in this case it gets the integer object
containing 13.
So it runs the function and it has not been programmed on how to append an
integer to a string of characters and it returns without an answer but an
exception. The interpreter evaluator does not admit defeat yet and
reasonable tries to see if the integer 13 has a __iadd__() which is similar
but different and again, an integer has not been programmed to append itself
to an object of type str. Could it have been? Sure. If you make your own
(sub)class you can create a kind of integer that will make a str version of
itself and append it o the "12" to make "1213" BUT in this case, that is not
an option. So the integer method fails and returns an exception too.
Now the parser functionality knows it has failed. "12" and 13 have both
refused to implement the plus sign and either it catches the exception OR is
does not and lets it flow upstream till any other functions in a chain catch
it. Any one can then generate some error message, or it can reach the top
level of the interpreter and it has to decide what to do.
But some errors are not fatal. If str had no __add__() that is not an error.
If it returns that it cannot do it, that is not a fatal error but a
temporary drawback. Only when int fails too is there a likely error but int
is not programmed to do anything lie reporting in __iadd__() and nor should
it except if you are debugging new functionality.
Can we get better error messages in many cases? Sure. Clearly the
interpreter level sees a call like func(x, y, x+y) and if evaluating it
causes an error, it could type out what all the variables were.
But if you are running code at the console and it aborts like this, you
usually have the variables at your fingertips and can say print(x) or
print(y) but you cannot properly say print(x+y) yet. The error message did
specify you were trying to work with incompatible objects as one was of type
this and the other of type that. That suggests the values of both could have
been accessed and shown in this case ad perhaps the code could be modified
so it returns some semblance of the values at least for built-in objects.
All that though adds code and complexity and often slows things down.
-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com@python.org> On
Behalf Of Rob Cliffe via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 4:31 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Why doesn't Python (error msg) tell me WHAT the actual (arg)
values are ?
On 22/02/2023 20:05, Hen Hanna wrote:
> Python makes programming (debugging) so easy
I agree with that!
Rob Cliffe
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