Mailing List Archive

Usenet vs. Mailing-list (was: evaluation question)
On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes:
>
> > Hi
>
> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
> NNTP get send on the mailing list.

This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
mailing-list.

(I also get Stefan Ram's postings despite his "no distribution outside
of Usenet" header).

hp

--
_ | Peter J. Holzer | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) | |
| | | hjp@hjp.at | -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | challenge!"
Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list (was: evaluation question) [ In reply to ]
On 2023-01-28, Peter J. Holzer <hjp-python@hjp.at> wrote:
> On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
>> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
>> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
>> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
>
> This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
> mailing-list.

Yes, it's certainly false. I only ever post via the newsgroup,
and I can see my postings reach the list because they appear
in the list archive on the web.

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/

--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
> On 2023-01-28, Peter J. Holzer <hjp-python@hjp.at> wrote:
> > On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
> >> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
> >> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
> >> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
> >
> > This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
> > mailing-list.
>
> Yes, it's certainly false. I only ever post via the newsgroup,
> and I can see my postings reach the list because they appear
> in the list archive on the web.
>
As far as I am aware the mirroring of the Python mailing list on
comp.lan.python works perfectly. I love gmane! :-)

--
Chris Green
·
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
> > On 2023-01-28, Peter J. Holzer <hjp-python@hjp.at> wrote:
> > > On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> > >> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
> > >> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
> > >> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
> > >> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
> > >
> > > This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
> > > mailing-list.
> >
> > Yes, it's certainly false. I only ever post via the newsgroup,
> > and I can see my postings reach the list because they appear
> > in the list archive on the web.
> >
> As far as I am aware the mirroring of the Python mailing list on
> comp.lan.python works perfectly. I love gmane! :-)
>
That is, of course, comp.lang.python. Too much wine! :-)

--
Chris Green
·
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list (was: evaluation question) [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:30:59 +0100, "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-python@hjp.at>
declaimed the following:

>On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes:
>>
>> > Hi
>>
>> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
>> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
>> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
>> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
>
>This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
>mailing-list.
>

I had been tempted to ask when the list<>newsgroup link had changed,
since it hadn't been announced...

Now -- last time I checked the gmane server says posting is prohibited.
I used to use gmane as it retrieved directly from the mailing list (which
has been filtered from much spam) and not Usenet (and its open spam
problem).


--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/
--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 20:07:44 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> declaimed the
following:


>As far as I am aware the mirroring of the Python mailing list on
>comp.lan.python works perfectly. I love gmane! :-)

Is gmane's gmane.comp.python.general allowing posts to go through
again? I had to revert to comp.lang.python some time back when gmane kept
rejecting outgoing posts.


--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/
--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 at 12:07, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>
> Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> > Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
> > > On 2023-01-28, Peter J. Holzer <hjp-python@hjp.at> wrote:
> > > > On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> > > >> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
> > > >> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
> > > >> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
> > > >> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
> > > >
> > > > This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
> > > > mailing-list.
> > >
> > > Yes, it's certainly false. I only ever post via the newsgroup,
> > > and I can see my postings reach the list because they appear
> > > in the list archive on the web.
> > >
> > As far as I am aware the mirroring of the Python mailing list on
> > comp.lan.python works perfectly. I love gmane! :-)
> >
> That is, of course, comp.lang.python. Too much wine! :-)
>

You can run Python with wine, but it runs natively and that's usually better :)

ChrisA
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
"Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-python@hjp.at> writes:

> On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes:
>>
>> > Hi
>>
>> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
>> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
>> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
>> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
>
> This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
> mailing-list.

Ah, OK. I thought that was the case but I am obviously wrong. Has
there been a change, or have I been wrong for a long time!?

There may be a timing issue because I tried to find a reply a Usenet
injected post from a mailing-list user and, at the time I looked, I
could not find one.

--
Ben.
--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On 2023-01-29, Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-python@hjp.at> writes:
>
>> On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes:
>>>
>>> > Hi
>>>
>>> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
>>> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
>>> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
>>> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
>>
>> This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
>> mailing-list.
>
> Ah, OK. I thought that was the case but I am obviously wrong. Has
> there been a change, or have I been wrong for a long time!?

I'm not aware of any significant period in the last twenty-one years
that it hasn't been working. Although sometimes it does feel like it
isn't, in that I reply to a post with an answer and then several
other people reply significantly later with the same answer, as if
my one had never existed... but whenever I check into it, my message
has actually always made it to the list.
--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> writes:

> On 2023-01-29, Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
>> "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-python@hjp.at> writes:
>>
>>> On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> > Hi
>>>>
>>>> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
>>>> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
>>>> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
>>>> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
>>>
>>> This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
>>> mailing-list.
>>
>> Ah, OK. I thought that was the case but I am obviously wrong. Has
>> there been a change, or have I been wrong for a long time!?
>
> I'm not aware of any significant period in the last twenty-one years
> that it hasn't been working. Although sometimes it does feel like it
> isn't, in that I reply to a post with an answer and then several
> other people reply significantly later with the same answer, as if
> my one had never existed... but whenever I check into it, my message
> has actually always made it to the list.

I have had the same experience and, as a result, I rarely post. Maybe
what I have to say is simply not interesting!

--
Ben.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:02:57 PM UTC-5, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Jon Ribbens <jon+u...@unequivocal.eu> writes:
>
> > On 2023-01-29, Ben Bacarisse <ben.u...@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> >> "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-p...@hjp.at> writes:
> >>
> >>> On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>> Mut...@dastardlyhq.com writes:
> >>>>
> >>>> > Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
> >>>> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
> >>>> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
> >>>> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
> >>>
> >>> This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
> >>> mailing-list.
> >>
> >> Ah, OK. I thought that was the case but I am obviously wrong. Has
> >> there been a change, or have I been wrong for a long time!?
> >
> > I'm not aware of any significant period in the last twenty-one years
> > that it hasn't been working. Although sometimes it does feel like it
> > isn't, in that I reply to a post with an answer and then several
> > other people reply significantly later with the same answer, as if
> > my one had never existed... but whenever I check into it, my message
> > has actually always made it to the list.
> I have had the same experience and, as a result, I rarely post. Maybe
> what I have to say is simply not interesting!
>
> --
> Ben.

If I remember correctly, multiple regulars that use the mailing list
mentioned that they "killfiled" posts originating from Google groups.
This may contribute to such situations.
--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
Igor Berger <codewizard@gmail.com> writes:

> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:02:57 PM UTC-5, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+u...@unequivocal.eu> writes:
>>
>> > On 2023-01-29, Ben Bacarisse <ben.u...@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
>> >> "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-p...@hjp.at> writes:
>> >>
>> >>> On 2023-01-27 21:04:58 +0000, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >>>> Mut...@dastardlyhq.com writes:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > Hi
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It looks like you posted this question via Usenet. comp.lang.python is
>> >>>> essentially dead as a Usenet group. It exists, and gets NNTP versions
>> >>>> of mail sent to the mailing list, but nothing posted to the group via
>> >>>> NNTP get send on the mailing list.
>> >>>
>> >>> This is wrong. I did get Muttley's any your postings via the
>> >>> mailing-list.
>> >>
>> >> Ah, OK. I thought that was the case but I am obviously wrong. Has
>> >> there been a change, or have I been wrong for a long time!?
>> >
>> > I'm not aware of any significant period in the last twenty-one years
>> > that it hasn't been working. Although sometimes it does feel like it
>> > isn't, in that I reply to a post with an answer and then several
>> > other people reply significantly later with the same answer, as if
>> > my one had never existed... but whenever I check into it, my message
>> > has actually always made it to the list.
>>
>> I have had the same experience and, as a result, I rarely post. Maybe
>> what I have to say is simply not interesting!
>>
>
> If I remember correctly, multiple regulars that use the mailing list
> mentioned that they "killfiled" posts originating from Google groups.
> This may contribute to such situations.

Ah, that may explain most of my confusion. I know I stopped posting
because there didn't seem to be much engagement, but maybe it was just
many list members choosing not to see my posts rather than all list
members not being able to see my posts.

As I said, I did check to see if I could find a reply to a
Usenet-originated post from a list member but my not being able to find
one could just be down to many list members filtering Usenet posts.
It's clearly not universal.

--
Ben.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On 2023-01-29 02:09:28 -0000, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> I'm not aware of any significant period in the last twenty-one years
> that
[the gateway]
> hasn't been working. Although sometimes it does feel like it isn't, in
> that I reply to a post with an answer and then several other people
> reply significantly later with the same answer, as if my one had never
> existed...

That's just because people don't read before they post.

Happens in any usenet group or mailing list (and probably in web forums,
too; but I don't really use those). I have to admit that I'm sometimes
guilty of this behaviour, too.

hp

--
_ | Peter J. Holzer | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) | |
| | | hjp@hjp.at | -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | challenge!"
Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On 2023-01-29, Peter J. Holzer <hjp-python@hjp.at> wrote:
> On 2023-01-29 02:09:28 -0000, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> I'm not aware of any significant period in the last twenty-one years
>> that
> [the gateway]
>> hasn't been working. Although sometimes it does feel like it isn't, in
>> that I reply to a post with an answer and then several other people
>> reply significantly later with the same answer, as if my one had never
>> existed...
>
> That's just because people don't read before they post.
>
> Happens in any usenet group or mailing list (and probably in web forums,
> too; but I don't really use those). I have to admit that I'm sometimes
> guilty of this behaviour, too.

Well, let's just assume for a moment that I'm familiar with Usenet and
with mailing lists ;-) This sort of replying-without-reading seems to
happen on comp.lang.python/python-list more than usual.
--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On 2023-01-28, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

> As far as I am aware the mirroring of the Python mailing list on
> comp.lan.python works perfectly. I love gmane! :-)

If gmane stopped working, I'd have to retire and give up on computers.

I supposed I might be able to hammer procmail and mutt into something
tolerable, but slrn pointed at gmane works wonderfully without any
futzing.

NNTP and newsreaders are designed specifically for the task to which
people have coopted e-mail into via mailing lists.

--
Grant

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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On 2023-01-28, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 20:07:44 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> declaimed the
> following:
>
>
>>As far as I am aware the mirroring of the Python mailing list on
>>comp.lan.python works perfectly. I love gmane! :-)
>
> Is gmane's gmane.comp.python.general allowing posts to go through
> again? I had to revert to comp.lang.python some time back when gmane kept
> rejecting outgoing posts.

No. FWIW, it's the mailing list that's blocking them, not Gmane.

That's why I wrote this:

https://github.com/GrantEdwards/hybrid-inews

It's an inews work-alike that submits most posts via gmanes NNTP
server, but will deal with particular groups
(e.g. gmane.comp.python.general) that want posts submitted via email.

It allows me to continue to read (and post to) the Python mailling
list via slrn pointed at gmane.

It is, of course, written in Python.


--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> writes:

> No. FWIW, it's the mailing list that's blocking them, not Gmane.
>
> That's why I wrote this:
>
> https://github.com/GrantEdwards/hybrid-inews
>
> It's an inews work-alike that submits most posts via gmanes NNTP
> server, but will deal with particular groups
> (e.g. gmane.comp.python.general) that want posts submitted via email.
>
> It allows me to continue to read (and post to) the Python mailling
> list via slrn pointed at gmane.

Interesting. In Gnus it was just a couple of settings to make it
understand that in this group (i.e. gmane group
gmane.comp.python.general) posts and follow-ups should be sent via mail
to the mailing list address.
--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list [ In reply to ]
On 2023-01-31, Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> No. FWIW, it's the mailing list that's blocking them, not Gmane.
>>
>> That's why I wrote this:
>>
>> https://github.com/GrantEdwards/hybrid-inews
>>
>> It's an inews work-alike that submits most posts via gmanes NNTP
>> server, but will deal with particular groups
>> (e.g. gmane.comp.python.general) that want posts submitted via email.
>>
>> It allows me to continue to read (and post to) the Python mailling
>> list via slrn pointed at gmane.
>
> Interesting. In Gnus it was just a couple of settings to make it
> understand that in this group (i.e. gmane group
> gmane.comp.python.general) posts and follow-ups should be sent via mail
> to the mailing list address.

Ah, slrn is missing that feature. It will let you e-mail a response
instead of posting a followup (IIRC, you hit 'r' instead of 'f'), but
when you do that it sends the e-mail to the poster rather than to the
list. You can edit the To: header to fix that, but that's too much to
remember. :)

I looked into adding such a feature to slrn, but it was far easier to
switch the slrn setting so that it posted via an external inews
utility instead of the built-in NNTP client. Then all I needed was a
smarter 'inews'. Thanks the the NNTP and SMTP libraries in Python, it
took only 50 lines of Python to implement an external inews utility
that routed postings to either gname via NNTP or list-servers via SMTP
depending on the group.

--
Grant
--
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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list (was: evaluation question) [ In reply to ]
On 28/01/2023 21:36, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> Now -- last time I checked the gmane server says posting is prohibited.
> I used to use gmane as it retrieved directly from the mailing list

I still use gmane but its no posting thing is a pain because responding
(or posting new stuff) is a now more complicated than before. So
I have to be very highly motivated to jump through the hoops.


--
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: Usenet vs. Mailing-list (was: evaluation question) [ In reply to ]
On 2023-01-31, Alan Gauld <learn2program@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28/01/2023 21:36, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>
>> Now -- last time I checked the gmane server says posting is prohibited.
>> I used to use gmane as it retrieved directly from the mailing list
>
> I still use gmane but its no posting thing is a pain because responding
> (or posting new stuff) is a now more complicated than before. So
> I have to be very highly motivated to jump through the hoops.

If your newsreader can post via an external inews utility, you can use
this Python implementation of inews to post to specified groups via
e-mail instead of NNTP:

https://github.com/GrantEdwards/hybrid-inews



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