Mailing List Archive

On 2021-09-25, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've been reading (and posting to) this list for many years by
> pointing an NNTP client at
> news://gmane.comp.python.general. Sometime in the past few days
> posts started being refused:
>
> You have tried posting to gmane.comp.python.general, which is a
> unidirectional mailing list. Gmane can therefore not send this
> message to that mailing list.
>
> Was this a change made by the mailing list admins?
>
> If so, is it permanent?
>
> [.Trying to send a plaintext e-mail via Gmail, but not sure if it's
> working.]

When composing plaintext, Gmail really should switch to a fixed font.
I'll try writing the post in slrn (which calls emacs in mail-mode) and
then inserting that file into gmail. What a colossal PITA.

Another gmane user posted a reply to my message, and I see it got
rejected also.

Were posts from gmane causing problems?

I've been trying to figure out how to set up mutt with oauth2 for
gmail, but have run into a wall there too: Google doesn't want to let
me create an "application" unless I have my own domain pre-registered
with Google.

Perhaps after 20+ years participating here, it's time to call it
quits.

--
Grant
--
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On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 11:37 PM Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've been trying to figure out how to set up mutt with oauth2 for
> gmail, but have run into a wall there too: Google doesn't want to let
> me create an "application" unless I have my own domain pre-registered
> with Google.
>
> Perhaps after 20+ years participating here, it's time to call it
> quits.
>

Not sure what the significance of the "application" is - Google has
different services for where you're using it with your own domain, but
that shouldn't be relevant. If you want to use Gmail with mutt, you
should be able to do that, regardless. (Or you can just use some other
email address to post from, that would also work.)

ChrisA
--
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On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not sure what the significance of the "application" is - Google has
> different services for where you're using it with your own domain, but
> that shouldn't be relevant. If you want to use Gmail with mutt, you
> should be able to do that, regardless. (Or you can just use some other
> email address to post from, that would also work.)

I have other addresses from which I could post, but I don't want them
visible on the list.

There are three ways to use mutt (or any other IMAP/SMTP) client with
GMail.

1. Plain old username/password authentication: This requires you to
enable the "less secure apps" option on your Gmail account. I used
to use that, and it worked. But, it's frowned upon, and I wouldn't
be surprised if it went away soon. It requires you to either put
your password in a plaintext config file or enter it every time
your connect to Gmail.

2. Application-specific password: Creates a unique 16-digit
application password that allows access to selected
capabilities. This requires that you have two-factor
authentication enabled on your Google account. I probably should
do that, but I haven't figured out a convenient way to do so.

3. OAUTH2: This requires that you "register an application" with
Google. That application is then issued revokable credentials. The
application uses those credentials to send an access request to
Google. The account's owner then goes to a specified URL to
autorize that access. The application is then issued revokable
access and refresh tokens. The access token allows access to
specific APIs for a short period of time (maybe an hour). After
the access token expires, the refresh token can be used to obtain
a new access token.

The "register an application" step is where I got stuck. Other mutt
users seem to have been able to go to their GMail account's cloud
services page, create a project, create/register an application, and
then download OAUTH2 credentials which they then use (via an external
utility) with programs like mutt and msmtp.

When I tried to "register an application" it demanded support and
privacy policy URLs for my application. Those URLs had to be using
domains that had bee pre-registered with Google. The only domain where
I have a web page is at panix.com, and that domain isn't pre-
registered with Google. I don't own that domain, so I'm not going to
try to pre-register it with Google.

I could continue to read the list with slrn, but post using something
like Thunderbird, but do I really want to set up a whole new MUA just
for one mailing list? [.The other 20+ mailing lists I follow are all
happy with posts from gmane.]

--
Grant
--
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On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 1:10 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Not sure what the significance of the "application" is - Google has
> > different services for where you're using it with your own domain, but
> > that shouldn't be relevant. If you want to use Gmail with mutt, you
> > should be able to do that, regardless. (Or you can just use some other
> > email address to post from, that would also work.)
>
> I have other addresses from which I could post, but I don't want them
> visible on the list.
>
> There are three ways to use mutt (or any other IMAP/SMTP) client with
> GMail.
>
> 1. Plain old username/password authentication: This requires you to
> enable the "less secure apps" option on your Gmail account. I used
> to use that, and it worked. But, it's frowned upon, and I wouldn't
> be surprised if it went away soon. It requires you to either put
> your password in a plaintext config file or enter it every time
> your connect to Gmail.

Agreed, I wouldn't recommend that.

> 2. Application-specific password: Creates a unique 16-digit
> application password that allows access to selected
> capabilities. This requires that you have two-factor
> authentication enabled on your Google account. I probably should
> do that, but I haven't figured out a convenient way to do so.

That would normally be the most convenient for personal usage like
this. It should be possible to use a simple TOTP tool, maybe even one
written in Python, like this:

https://github.com/Rosuav/shed/blob/master/2fa

> 3. OAUTH2: This requires that you "register an application" with
> Google. That application is then issued revokable credentials. The
> application uses those credentials to send an access request to
> Google. The account's owner then goes to a specified URL to
> autorize that access. The application is then issued revokable
> access and refresh tokens. The access token allows access to
> specific APIs for a short period of time (maybe an hour). After
> the access token expires, the refresh token can be used to obtain
> a new access token.

This is primarily aimed at third-party tools, where the user owning
the account isn't the same person as the creator of the tool. That's
why there's all the extra layers. It can certainly be used in a more
personal setup, but you'll probably need to do some
otherwise-unnecessary work. Google in particular is a bit of a hassle
for OAuth (compared to other OAuth providers), due to the wide variety
of services that they provide, some of which cost money. So there are
extra steps to choose which services to activate.

> The "register an application" step is where I got stuck. Other mutt
> users seem to have been able to go to their GMail account's cloud
> services page, create a project, create/register an application, and
> then download OAUTH2 credentials which they then use (via an external
> utility) with programs like mutt and msmtp.
>
> When I tried to "register an application" it demanded support and
> privacy policy URLs for my application. Those URLs had to be using
> domains that had bee pre-registered with Google. The only domain where
> I have a web page is at panix.com, and that domain isn't pre-
> registered with Google. I don't own that domain, so I'm not going to
> try to pre-register it with Google.

The most important address is the redirect URL. If you set that to
something on localhost, Google will know that you're building an
internal-only tool, and won't require anything much for the support
and privacy policy URLs (you could probably just set them to
http://localhost/support and http://localhost/privacy, or maybe even
leave them blank).

(But I'd still recommend an app password. Much easier.)

> I could continue to read the list with slrn, but post using something
> like Thunderbird, but do I really want to set up a whole new MUA just
> for one mailing list? [.The other 20+ mailing lists I follow are all
> happy with posts from gmane.]
>

I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, or at
gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may have
actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from the list
admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea.

ChrisA
--
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On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 9/26/21 9:21 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, or at
> >> gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may have
> >> actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from the list
> >> admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea.
> >
> > I'm just guessing, but I can't imagine that gmane's owner would have
> > done that unless python-list itself started to refuse posts (or the
> > python-list admins requested that gmane stop sending posts).
>
> I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy,
> and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a
> light weekend).

We're not talking about the usenet<-->list gateway.

Gmane.io is a server that subscribes to and archives many thousands of
email lists. It provides NNTP access to that archive. It submits
postings made by NNTP clients via e-mail. It stopped allowing posting
a few days ago for python-list.

At least one other gmane user has also reported being no longer able
to post to python-list.

Posting to other lists via gmane still works fine.

My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts
from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server
to stop accepting posts for python-list.

--
Grant
--
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On 27/09/2021 06.34, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> On 9/26/21 9:21 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, or at
>>>> gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may have
>>>> actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from the list
>>>> admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea.
...
> My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts
> from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server
> to stop accepting posts for python-list.
>


1 Google are not the most reliable when it comes to maintaining
policy/services, nor for advising their decision to make changes. CI/CD
breakage doesn't 'count' when you're big-enough not to care...

2 Every message from the OP in this 'thread' (not others) has broken the
thread, which indicates a wider problem/change.

I'm ignorant of such things. Why not subscribe directly to this list
with your dedicated/public-facing gmail address?
(if the concern relates to having too many email addresses 'open to the
world', is Google the best 'gatekeeper' and privacy guard?)
--
Regards,
=dn
--
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On 2021-09-26, dn via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
> On 27/09/2021 06.34, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>>> On 9/26/21 9:21 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>> On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list,
>>>>> or at gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may
>>>>> have actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from
>>>>> the list admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea.
> ...
>
>> My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed
>> posts from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the
>> gmane server to stop accepting posts for python-list.
>>
>
>
> 1 Google are not the most reliable when it comes to maintaining
> policy/services, nor for advising their decision to make changes. CI/CD
> breakage doesn't 'count' when you're big-enough not to care...

I'm not really sure what Google has to do with it other than me
wanting to post using my GMail address, since that's the one that
everybody knows. I could be using any other e-mail address, and it
wouldn't make any difference.

> 2 Every message from the OP in this 'thread' (not others) has broken the
> thread, which indicates a wider problem/change.

And I apologize for that. It's because I'm reading the list using an
NNTP client (slrn) connected to an NNTP server at gmane.io and then
posting via e-mail. Doing that doesn't include the correct References
header. Posting via gmane stopped working a few days ago (after
having worked for 20 years). I'm working on a solution so that slrn
can read using NNTP and post using email (including the proper
headers), but it's going to take a few days.

In the meanwhile, I'll try to manually insert the proper References:
header when I post.

> I'm ignorant of such things. Why not subscribe directly to this list
> with your dedicated/public-facing gmail address?

I find that following mailing lists using a news reader is far, far
more efficient than using an e-mail program. Efficiently sifting
through thousands and thousands of posts in dozens of groups/lists is
want newsreaders are designed to do, and they're very good at it. One
of the big advantages of slrn is that I can create a "score file" so I
always see things I want to see, and not see things I don't want to
see. I can also search through decades of articles almost instantly
without having to have any of them stored locally.

--
Grant

--
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On 9/26/21 10:34 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:

>> I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy,
>> and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a
>> light weekend).
>
> We're not talking about the usenet<-->list gateway.

> My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts
> from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server
> to stop accepting posts for python-list.

I readily admit I may not understand, or know, all the usenet jargon, but looking at the Mailman server for Python list
I see it is still fully configured to talk with News.FU-Berlin.DE, newsgroup comp.lang.python.

I'll forward the problem to the maintainers -- hopefully they'll have some insight.

--
~Ethan~
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

On 2021-09-26, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 2 Every message from the OP in this 'thread' (not others) has broken the
>> thread, which indicates a wider problem/change.
>
> And I apologize for that. It's because I'm reading the list using an
> NNTP client (slrn) connected to an NNTP server at gmane.io and then
> posting via e-mail. Doing that doesn't include the correct References
> header. Posting via gmane stopped working a few days ago (after
> having worked for 20 years). I'm working on a solution so that slrn
> can read using NNTP and post using email (including the proper
> headers), but it's going to take a few days.

It was easier than I thought. It only took about a half hour to write
my own 'inews' utility that I can tell slrn to use for posting
articles. It looks at the article and decides based on the destination
whether to use NNTP or SMTP to send it (and then sends it using the
appropriate protocol).

It's a total of 50 lines of Python (including logging stuff to
syslog).

This is my first "real" post using it, so hopefully this shows up with
proper headers.

--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 9/26/21 10:34 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>
>>> I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy,
>>> and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a
>>> light weekend).
>>
>> We're not talking about the usenet<-->list gateway.
>
>> My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts
>> from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server
>> to stop accepting posts for python-list.
>
> I readily admit I may not understand, or know, all the usenet
> jargon,

Once again, there is no Usenet involved. Gmane.io is an NNTP server,
and NNTP is _also_ used by Usenet servers, but Gmane isn't part of
Usenet and doesn't implement any of the Usenet peering "news"
protocols.

> but looking at the Mailman server for Python list I see it is still
> fully configured to talk with News.FU-Berlin.DE, newsgroup
> comp.lang.python.

This has nothing to do with Usenet servers or their connections to
python-list.

>From the list's POV, gmane.io is a "normal" email subscriber who just
happens to archive all the articles it receives. I should never have
mentioned that gmane.io does NNTP -- it just seems to have confused
everybody.

When a gmane.io user submits a post, the post arrives at python-list
by normal email channels having been sent via SMTP by the gmane.io
server "From:" the user (who, IIRC, has to be subscribed to the list).

--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

On 2021-09-27, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

> >From the list's POV, gmane.io is a "normal" email subscriber who just
> happens to archive all the articles it receives. I should never have
> mentioned that gmane.io does NNTP -- it just seems to have confused
> everybody.

Did SMTP.send_message() add that '>' escape when it saw a 'From' at
the beginning of the line?

--
Grant

--
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Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> writes:

> I've been reading (and posting to) this list for many years by
> pointing an NNTP client
> at news://gmane.comp.python.general. Sometime in the past few days posts started
> being refused:
>
> You have tried posting to gmane.comp.python.general, which is a
> unidirectional
> mailing list. Gmane can therefore not send this message to that
> mailing list.
>
> Was this a change made by the mailing list admins?
>
> If so, is it permanent?
>
> [.Trying to send a plaintext e-mail via Gmail, but not sure if it's working.]

Oh this is unhappy news. Because i also using Gmane with
gmane.emacs.help and gmane.linux.debian.user. Only i use Usenet (eternal
september) with comp.lang.python.

Sincerely, Byung-Hee
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

On 9/26/21 20:38, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> On 9/26/21 10:34 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>>
>>>> I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy,
>>>> and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a
>>>> light weekend).
>>>
>>> We're not talking about the usenet<-->list gateway.
>>
>>> My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts
>>> from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server
>>> to stop accepting posts for python-list.
>>
>> I readily admit I may not understand, or know, all the usenet
>> jargon,
>
> Once again, there is no Usenet involved. Gmane.io is an NNTP server,
> and NNTP is _also_ used by Usenet servers, but Gmane isn't part of
> Usenet and doesn't implement any of the Usenet peering "news"
> protocols.
>
>> but looking at the Mailman server for Python list I see it is still
>> fully configured to talk with News.FU-Berlin.DE, newsgroup
>> comp.lang.python.
>
> This has nothing to do with Usenet servers or their connections to
> python-list.
>
>>From the list's POV, gmane.io is a "normal" email subscriber who just
> happens to archive all the articles it receives. I should never have
> mentioned that gmane.io does NNTP -- it just seems to have confused
> everybody.
>
> When a gmane.io user submits a post, the post arrives at python-list
> by normal email channels having been sent via SMTP by the gmane.io
> server "From:" the user (who, IIRC, has to be subscribed to the list).

I have been in touch with the administrator of gmane. It appears that
posting from python-list to gmane has been deliberately disabled, at
least temporarily, with cause. I'll see if we can resolve the problem.


--
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On 2021-09-27, Ned Deily <nad@python.org> wrote:

> I have been in touch with the administrator of gmane. It appears that
> posting from python-list to gmane has been deliberately disabled, at
> least temporarily, with cause. I'll see if we can resolve the problem.

Thanks. Though I've figured out a solution that allows me to read the
list via gmane using slrn and post "directly" via e-mail, I'm sure
other gmane users will appreciate that.

--
Grant
--
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On 2021-09-27, ??? <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I've been reading (and posting to) this list for many years by
>> pointing an NNTP client
>> at news://gmane.comp.python.general. Sometime in the past few days posts started
>> being refused:
>>
>> You have tried posting to gmane.comp.python.general, which is a
>> unidirectional
>> mailing list. Gmane can therefore not send this message to that
>> mailing list.
>>
>> Was this a change made by the mailing list admins?
>>
>> If so, is it permanent?
>>
>> [.Trying to send a plaintext e-mail via Gmail, but not sure if it's working.]
>
> Oh this is unhappy news. Because i also using Gmane with
> gmane.emacs.help and gmane.linux.debian.user.

Posting to other lists in gmane still works fine for me. It's only the
python list that turned into read-only.

> Only i use Usenet (eternal september) with comp.lang.python.

I've switched back and forth between Usenet and gmane a couple times
trying to figure out which one had the least breakage in references:
headers. I acually wrote a Python program that acted as an NNTP client
and counted thread breakage. The last time I ran that test gmane had a
slight advantage in thread integrity and fewer posters in need of
plonking.

--
Grant

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