Mailing List Archive

Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list
Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.

Paul

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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:32 AM Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
>
> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>

As someone who exclusively follows the mailing list, I selfishly want
to support this, as it would notably improve the signal-to-noise
ratio. But I'm aware that there are a number of good people who
currently use the newsgroup, and those people would then be abandoned
in the cess-pool.

ChrisA
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RE: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
Chris,

Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
there is a divorce between the forums?

Everybody has trivial access to an email account these days and many mailers
allow incoming messages that fit a pattern to be placed in some names folder
to be read as a group if one wishes.

The difference would include less spoofing but also the ability to remove
and that are causing annoyance here.

Avi

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net@python.org> On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 8:37 PM
To: Python <python-list@python.org>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:32 AM Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
>
> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for
> use in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python
> from the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>

As someone who exclusively follows the mailing list, I selfishly want to
support this, as it would notably improve the signal-to-noise ratio. But I'm
aware that there are a number of good people who currently use the
newsgroup, and those people would then be abandoned in the cess-pool.

ChrisA
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:32 AM Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
>> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
>> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
>> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>>
>
> As someone who exclusively follows the mailing list, I selfishly want
> to support this, as it would notably improve the signal-to-noise
> ratio. But I'm aware that there are a number of good people who
> currently use the newsgroup, and those people would then be abandoned
> in the cess-pool.

Counter-proposal that I have suggested several times before that would
solve both these problems: make the newsgroup moderated.

(Or, I suppose, create comp.lang.python.moderated and gateway it
to the mailing list, and disconnect comp.lang.python from the list.)
--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
<python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
> there is a divorce between the forums?

Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.

But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a newsreader,
so the gateway is serving them very well.

ChrisA
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
to do so?

On Thu, 2021-05-06 at 00:43 +0000, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:32 AM Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > > Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity
> > > for use
> > > in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> > > staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect
> > > comp.lang.python from
> > > the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate
> > > independently.
> > >
> >
> > As someone who exclusively follows the mailing list, I selfishly
> > want
> > to support this, as it would notably improve the signal-to-noise
> > ratio. But I'm aware that there are a number of good people who
> > currently use the newsgroup, and those people would then be
> > abandoned
> > in the cess-pool.
>
> Counter-proposal that I have suggested several times before that
> would
> solve both these problems: make the newsgroup moderated.
>
> (Or, I suppose, create comp.lang.python.moderated and gateway it
> to the mailing list, and disconnect comp.lang.python from the list.)

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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
> What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
> to do so?

Nothing at all is involved, apart from changing the status of the group.
The moderation would be done by the same people, in the same way, as the
moderation of the list is done now. They wouldn't need to do any work
they don't already do.
--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 5/5/21 9:40 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
>> What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
>> to do so?
> Nothing at all is involved, apart from changing the status of the group.
> The moderation would be done by the same people, in the same way, as the
> moderation of the list is done now. They wouldn't need to do any work
> they don't already do.

As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.

Basically, some machine would need to be designated to get all the
submissions to the group, emailed to it, and people would need to log
into the email account on that computer to approve all the posts, or a
robot could perhaps be setup to auto-approve most based on some rules.

--
Richard Damon

--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> On 5/5/21 9:40 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> On 2021-05-06, Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
>>> What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
>>> to do so?
>> Nothing at all is involved, apart from changing the status of the group.
>> The moderation would be done by the same people, in the same way, as the
>> moderation of the list is done now. They wouldn't need to do any work
>> they don't already do.
>
> As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
> to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
> would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
> problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
> that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.

As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
better.

> Basically, some machine would need to be designated to get all the
> submissions to the group, emailed to it, and people would need to log
> into the email account on that computer to approve all the posts, or a
> robot could perhaps be setup to auto-approve most based on some rules.

Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
away from the point of view of the group participants.
--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 5/5/21 10:44 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>> On 5/5/21 9:40 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-06, Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
>>>> What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
>>>> to do so?
>>> Nothing at all is involved, apart from changing the status of the group.
>>> The moderation would be done by the same people, in the same way, as the
>>> moderation of the list is done now. They wouldn't need to do any work
>>> they don't already do.
>> As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
>> to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
>> would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
>> problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
>> that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.
> As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
> isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
> suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
> better.

Not so sure you are longer than me, I started on usenet is the late 80s
with dial up.

Yes, there have been a few successful conversions, but it is a lot of
work, and there may be too many servers that don't really care that
might get it wrong (google groups is one that could easily not care if
they break things, they have already broken comp.lang.c++

>
>> Basically, some machine would need to be designated to get all the
>> submissions to the group, emailed to it, and people would need to log
>> into the email account on that computer to approve all the posts, or a
>> robot could perhaps be setup to auto-approve most based on some rules.
> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
> mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
> difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
> away from the point of view of the group participants.

The big difference is that the mailing list directly gets its email from
the senders, and that was totally over SMTP so some From: verification
is possible, thus it make sense to let email addresses be validated for
whitelisting. Submissions from the moderated group have lost all
traceability to the original sender when it get forwarded via the NNTP
transportation link, so such a white list might not be as viable, and on
usenet many people intentionally post without valid From addresses, so a
LOT more messages will end up in the moderation queue, so more work for
the moderators.

--
Richard Damon

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> "Avi Gross" <avigross@verizon.net> writes:
> > Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
> > there is a divorce between the forums?
>
> Some of us don't want to be on mailing lists, and prefer using news
> client software.

I am in agreement here, if a list/group is available both on Usenet
and as a mailing list then I will always use the Usenet/NNTP access as
it is simply better for discussion groups like this.

I do have a 'proper' threaded mail reader (mutt) that I use for
reading lists but a 'proper' newreader that uses that extra facilities
of NNTP is always going to be better.

So my vote is to keep comp.lang.python as it is in terms of content,
whether that means changing it to a moderated group or something else
I don't mind.

The current level of 'noise' is IMHO acceptable, if the people who
deal with it now are OK to continue then let's not change anything.

--
Chris Green
·
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> On 5/5/21 10:44 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>>> As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
>>> to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
>>> would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
>>> problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
>>> that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.
>> As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
>> isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
>> suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
>> better.
>
> Not so sure you are longer than me, I started on usenet is the late 80s
> with dial up.

Yes, me too ;-)

>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
>> difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
>> away from the point of view of the group participants.
>
> The big difference is that the mailing list directly gets its email from
> the senders, and that was totally over SMTP so some From: verification
> is possible, thus it make sense to let email addresses be validated for
> whitelisting. Submissions from the moderated group have lost all
> traceability to the original sender when it get forwarded via the NNTP
> transportation link, so such a white list might not be as viable, and on
> usenet many people intentionally post without valid From addresses, so a
> LOT more messages will end up in the moderation queue, so more work for
> the moderators.

I think you're fundamentally missing the point that the newsgroup is
*already gatewayed to the mailing list*. Marking the group moderated
will not result in any more work for the moderators. In fact what you
say above is the opposite of the truth, as it will result in the link
between the poster and the moderators becoming more direct, not less
direct.
--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
> mailing list for which all of that work is already done?

What is this moderation of which you speak? I'm one of the Python
postmasters (I maintain the SpamBayes setup) and am aware of a
multi-part tool chain (black hole lists, SpamBayes, greylisting, etc),
but not of human moderation on a grand scale, just of the relatively
few posts which are held for the admins/moderators by SpamBayes. My
definition of "moderation" is that a human vets every post. That's
certainly not the case for python-list@python.org. Posts gated from
comp.lang.python to the mailing list only get passed through
SpamBayes. All other elements of the tool chain occur ahead of the
gateway.

If we are using two different definitions of "moderation" I think it
is important to be clear what we mean.

Skip
--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done?
>
> What is this moderation of which you speak? I'm one of the Python
> postmasters (I maintain the SpamBayes setup) and am aware of a
> multi-part tool chain (black hole lists, SpamBayes, greylisting, etc),
> but not of human moderation on a grand scale, just of the relatively
> few posts which are held for the admins/moderators by SpamBayes. My
> definition of "moderation" is that a human vets every post.

That's not a definition that anyone else would use, I think,
and I say that as a moderator of a Usenet group..

> That's certainly not the case for python-list@python.org. Posts gated
> from comp.lang.python to the mailing list only get passed through
> SpamBayes. All other elements of the tool chain occur ahead of the
> gateway.
>
> If we are using two different definitions of "moderation" I think it
> is important to be clear what we mean.

Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
rejected from the list was also a lie?
--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 5/6/21 6:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>> On 5/5/21 10:44 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>>>> As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
>>>> to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
>>>> would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
>>>> problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
>>>> that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.
>>> As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
>>> isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
>>> suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
>>> better.
>> Not so sure you are longer than me, I started on usenet is the late 80s
>> with dial up.
> Yes, me too ;-)
>
>>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
>>> difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
>>> away from the point of view of the group participants.
>> The big difference is that the mailing list directly gets its email from
>> the senders, and that was totally over SMTP so some From: verification
>> is possible, thus it make sense to let email addresses be validated for
>> whitelisting. Submissions from the moderated group have lost all
>> traceability to the original sender when it get forwarded via the NNTP
>> transportation link, so such a white list might not be as viable, and on
>> usenet many people intentionally post without valid From addresses, so a
>> LOT more messages will end up in the moderation queue, so more work for
>> the moderators.
> I think you're fundamentally missing the point that the newsgroup is
> *already gatewayed to the mailing list*. Marking the group moderated
> will not result in any more work for the moderators. In fact what you
> say above is the opposite of the truth, as it will result in the link
> between the poster and the moderators becoming more direct, not less
> direct.

It will. First, python-list@python.org is NOT a "Moderated" mailing list
by the standard definition of such. Maybe you could call it Moderatable,
but most messages make it to the list without any intervention by a
moderator. The Mailman software that runs the list allows the
administrators of the list to put select filters on posts, or to make
certain posters moderated and need their posts reviewed, but most posts
go through automatically and immediately. This works because the SMTP
Email system have a must better presumption of the From address in the
message actually being who the sender is then under NNTP rules. Forging
it is detectable in many cases and generally a violation of the TOS for
most providers (and the ones that don't can easily be blocked).

While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing, Usenet
posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and the From
address is no where near as relaible as invalid From addresses ARE
allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection source relay,
non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.

The current setup does put rules at the gateway that controls what gets
onto the mailing list, and because it IS a gateway, there are easier
grounds to establish that some posts just won't be gated over from
usenet to the mailing list. Putting those same limits onto the moderated
group itself would be against Usenet norms. This would mean that the
Usenet moderation queue WILL require significant additional work over
what is currently being done for the mailing list.

If the idea is just to provide a NNTP accessible version of the mailing
list, than perhaps rather than a comp.* group, putting it on gmane would
be a viable option, that avoids some of the Usenet issues.

--
Richard Damon

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 5/6/21 9:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done?
>> What is this moderation of which you speak? I'm one of the Python
>> postmasters (I maintain the SpamBayes setup) and am aware of a
>> multi-part tool chain (black hole lists, SpamBayes, greylisting, etc),
>> but not of human moderation on a grand scale, just of the relatively
>> few posts which are held for the admins/moderators by SpamBayes. My
>> definition of "moderation" is that a human vets every post.
> That's not a definition that anyone else would use, I think,
> and I say that as a moderator of a Usenet group..
>
>> That's certainly not the case for python-list@python.org. Posts gated
>> from comp.lang.python to the mailing list only get passed through
>> SpamBayes. All other elements of the tool chain occur ahead of the
>> gateway.
>>
>> If we are using two different definitions of "moderation" I think it
>> is important to be clear what we mean.
> Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
> such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
> particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
> message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
> rejected from the list was also a lie?

No, as I mentioned in my other post. a "Moderated Mailing List" is
generally described as one which EVERY message is hand reviewed by a
person, and alloweed onto the list. python-list is NOT such a list.

One advantage of mediums like mailing lists, is that it is quite easy to
setup methods where all the mail goes through a gatekeeper, and it
automatically approves most messages, but a limited number of messages
get held to be reviewed. This is generally NOT described as a Moderated
List.

Usenet being a distributed system, doesn't support this model. Either
anybody can inject a message from wherever they are, no all messages are
sent to be reviewed, the unmoderated and moderated is a VERY sharp line.

In Usenet terms, lists like this would be described as loosely
robo-moderated. And it works a lot better for mailing lists than for
Usenet groups due to different rules about From: identification of messages.

--
Richard Damon

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
> Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
> such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
> particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
> message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
> rejected from the list was also a lie?

I'm sorry, but I don't recall accusing you of lying, neither in my
words nor in my thoughts. If you think I was doing that, you must be
reading everything with a very jaundiced eye.

My issue was that we seem to disagree with the definition of
"moderation." Earlier in this thread it was suggested that
comp.lang.python.moderated be created and that some as-yet-unnamed
moderators would vet every single message to that group. I think of
moderation as things which humans do, not tool chains. I suppose the
python.org postmasters could disable all elements of that tool chain
and let the admins/moderators do it all manually. Still, I don't think
of the mailing list as moderated. Yes, Ethan is one of three listed
admins of the list. I wouldn't have mentioned him by name, but you
did. (I suppose his role common knowledge anyway.)

I see three held messages in the queue right now with received times
between 00:33 to 08:15 today (timezone isn't mentioned). I seriously
doubt Ethan or the other admins approved all the other messages which
have reached the list in that interval. Despite the existing tool
chain, a number of messages which shouldn't probably leak through
without being vetted by Ethan or the other admins.

I will offer one other bit of information. As I understand it, the
only reason python-list@python.org can't be migrated to Mailman 3 is
because it doesn't support the gateway between Usenet and mail. It's
worth considering for people thinking about whether or not to
disconnect the two. (I have no opinion on that subject. Clearly others
do.)

Skip
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> On 5/6/21 6:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> I think you're fundamentally missing the point that the newsgroup is
>> *already gatewayed to the mailing list*. Marking the group moderated
>> will not result in any more work for the moderators. In fact what you
>> say above is the opposite of the truth, as it will result in the link
>> between the poster and the moderators becoming more direct, not less
>> direct.
>
> It will.

How? How would switching from a bi-directional gateway to a moderated
group make any more work for anyone than the existing bi-directional
gateway to an unmoderated group?

> First, python-list@python.org is NOT a "Moderated" mailing list by the
> standard definition of such. Maybe you could call it Moderatable, but
> most messages make it to the list without any intervention by a
> moderator.

Sounds like nearly all moderated lists/forums then.

> The Mailman software that runs the list allows the administrators of
> the list to put select filters on posts, or to make certain posters
> moderated and need their posts reviewed, but most posts go through
> automatically and immediately. This works because the SMTP Email
> system have a must better presumption of the From address in the
> message actually being who the sender is then under NNTP rules.

The SMTP mail system makes no such assumption whatsoever.

> Forging it is detectable in many cases and generally a violation of
> the TOS for most providers (and the ones that don't can easily be
> blocked).

Sounds a lot like Usenet then.

> While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing, Usenet
> posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and the From
> address is no where near as relaible as invalid From addresses ARE
> allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection source relay,
> non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.

It makes essentially no difference at all.

> The current setup does put rules at the gateway that controls what gets
> onto the mailing list, and because it IS a gateway, there are easier
> grounds to establish that some posts just won't be gated over from
> usenet to the mailing list. Putting those same limits onto the moderated
> group itself would be against Usenet norms. This would mean that the
> Usenet moderation queue WILL require significant additional work over
> what is currently being done for the mailing list.

Could you explain what on earth you are on about here please?

> If the idea is just to provide a NNTP accessible version of the mailing
> list, than perhaps rather than a comp.* group, putting it on gmane would
> be a viable option, that avoids some of the Usenet issues.

How would that make any difference?
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
>> such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
>> particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
>> message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
>> rejected from the list was also a lie?
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't recall accusing you of lying,

Neither do I. Nor do I remember accusing you of accusing me of lying.
Try reading the quoted paragraph above again, since you apparently
misread it the first time.

> My issue was that we seem to disagree with the definition of
> "moderation." Earlier in this thread it was suggested that
> comp.lang.python.moderated be created and that some as-yet-unnamed
> moderators would vet every single message to that group.

I am not aware that anyone has suggested anything remotely like that.

> Yes, Ethan is one of three listed admins of the list. I wouldn't have
> mentioned him by name, but you did. (I suppose his role common
> knowledge anyway.)

Well, yes, if he wanted it to be secret he presumably would not have
made formal announcements describing himself as a moderator in public
on the list.
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> On 5/6/21 9:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
>> such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
>> particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
>> message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
>> rejected from the list was also a lie?
>
> No, as I mentioned in my other post. a "Moderated Mailing List" is
> generally described as one which EVERY message is hand reviewed by a
> person, and alloweed onto the list. python-list is NOT such a list.

It's a list. It has people who describe themselves as "moderators",
who moderate it. If you want to say that a list with moderators who
moderate it is not a moderated list then feel free to go right ahead,
it's a free planet.

> One advantage of mediums like mailing lists, is that it is quite easy to
> setup methods where all the mail goes through a gatekeeper, and it
> automatically approves most messages, but a limited number of messages
> get held to be reviewed. This is generally NOT described as a Moderated
> List.
>
> Usenet being a distributed system, doesn't support this model.

You are mistaken, that is exactly how a moderated newsgroup works.
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
><python-list@python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
>> there is a divorce between the forums?
>
> Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
> People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
> improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.
>
> But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
> list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
> names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a newsreader,

Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.

Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
signal/noise ration seems fine to me.

--
Grant


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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:

> If the idea is just to provide a NNTP accessible version of the mailing
> list, than perhaps rather than a comp.* group, putting it on gmane would
> be a viable option, that avoids some of the Usenet issues.

The list _is_ on gmane and has been since forever.

It's gmane.comp.python.general.

--
Grant



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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
It was high time ???? a proposal like that came up
We have seen from time to time some comp lang
interruptions ~
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
On 2021-05-06, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> Granted, I did move from pure comp.lang.python to
> gmane.comp.python.general when the spam became too much to keep
> track of. (Now if I could only figure out why the beaglebone group
> stopped accepting replies via gmane -- I keep having to remember to
> reply by email in that forum).

Years ago one of the lists I read on gmane required actual e-mailed
posts and I configured slrn to do that without me having to remember
it. I don't remember exactly how...

--
Grant

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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list [ In reply to ]
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
> ><python-list@python.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
> >> there is a divorce between the forums?
> >
> > Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
> > People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
> > improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.
> >
> > But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
> > list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
> > names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a newsreader,
>
> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
>
??? Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
is the Usenet protocol. What's "not Usenet" about it?

> Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
> signal/noise ration seems fine to me.
>
On that I quite agree. :-)

--
Chris Green
·
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