Mailing List Archive

On Sep 20, 2022, at 02:47, Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer reaches the proper audience.

Please also make sure your PEP’s Discussions-To header points to the right forum.

https://peps.python.org/pep-0001/#discussing-a-pep

Cheers,
-Barry

Hello,

good to see that someone in the Steering Council still reads here, as
some of the actions necessary to make either mailing-list mode or RSS a
viable alternative [1] need an official "hat":

* mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters
to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that). That's the only way to make
sure all people using mailing-list mode get the same set of posts.
Giving this set of filters an official status would allow external
mirroring and archiving (relying solely on discourse.org for archiving
is imprudent).

* RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still
there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age /
length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are
*much* increased.

Cheers,
Baptiste

[1] hopefully "we don't see anything that would block Python
development" doesn't mean alternatives to the (slow and annoying) web
interface are abandoned.

[2]
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57F7QJJ2LYBDGZQ5BIXLH7OXWJ/

Viktorin a écrit :
> As mentioned previously [0], the Steering Council decided to switch from
> python-dev to Discourse (discuss.python.org).
> We're aware that Discourse is not perfect. The previous mail thread [0]
> lists various shortcomings, as well as some workarounds. However, we
> don't see anything that would block Python development.
>
> Practically, the switch means that:
> - New PEPs should be announced in the PEPs category on Discourse (rather
> than on this list), and
> - The Devguide will list Discourse, rather than mailing lists, as the
> primary communication channel.
>
> Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long
> as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to
> continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person
> sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer
> reaches the proper audience.
>
> For the related docs changes, see [peps-2775] and [devguide-945]. Note
> that this is documentation, not law – if something is unclear or doesn't
> make sense, please ask for clarification or propose edits.
>
> [0]:
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
>
> [peps-2775]: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2775
> [devguide-945]: https://github.com/python/devguide/pull/945
>
>
> — Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
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>
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

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On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
> Hello,
>
> good to see that someone in the Steering Council still reads here, as
> some of the actions necessary to make either mailing-list mode or RSS a
> viable alternative [1] need an official "hat":
>
> * mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters
> to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that). That's the only way to make
> sure all people using mailing-list mode get the same set of posts.
> Giving this set of filters an official status would allow external
> mirroring and archiving (relying solely on discourse.org for archiving
> is imprudent).

Do you have a proposal we could standardize?
Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer
around, unless there's a disagreement.

But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing
list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests.
Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.

> * RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still
> there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age /
> length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are
> *much* increased.

I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a
feature request to Discourse.
I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to
miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier
filtering?


> Cheers,
> Baptiste
>
> [1] hopefully "we don't see anything that would block Python
> development" doesn't mean alternatives to the (slow and annoying) web
> interface are abandoned.
>
> [2]
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57F7QJJ2LYBDGZQ5BIXLH7OXWJ/
>
> Viktorin a écrit :
>> As mentioned previously [0], the Steering Council decided to switch from
>> python-dev to Discourse (discuss.python.org).
>> We're aware that Discourse is not perfect. The previous mail thread [0]
>> lists various shortcomings, as well as some workarounds. However, we
>> don't see anything that would block Python development.
>>
>> Practically, the switch means that:
>> - New PEPs should be announced in the PEPs category on Discourse (rather
>> than on this list), and
>> - The Devguide will list Discourse, rather than mailing lists, as the
>> primary communication channel.
>>
>> Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long
>> as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to
>> continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person
>> sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer
>> reaches the proper audience.
>>
>> For the related docs changes, see [peps-2775] and [devguide-945]. Note
>> that this is documentation, not law – if something is unclear or doesn't
>> make sense, please ask for clarification or propose edits.
>>
>> [0]:
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
>>
>> [peps-2775]: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2775
>> [devguide-945]: https://github.com/python/devguide/pull/945
>>
>>
>> — Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
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Hello,

Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
> On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
>>
>> * mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters
>> to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that).
>> [...]

> Do you have a proposal we could standardize?
> Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer
> around, unless there's a disagreement.

I believe indeed that the devguide should provide complete guidance
towards getting a python-dev equivalent using mailing-list mode, to
avoid many users having to reinvent the wheel. I don't have enough
experience to give such advice myself (yet).

> But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing
> list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests.

That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus
want to follow a common set of discussions. This is what makes up a
discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it
thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be
sensible enough.

> Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.

According to the devguide, "these are the Discourse equivalents to the
python-dev mailing list". I believe many people want just that. This is
also the perimeter that makes most sense for long term external
archival, as it is likely to contain all major design discussions.

>> * RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still
>> there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age /
>> length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are
>> *much* increased.

> I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a
> feature request to Discourse.

Discourse could indeed make their RSS interface much friendlier. Alas,
as I say in my previous message, a very useful feature request
(per-category post feeds) has been lingering for 6 years. So I won't
hold my breath.

In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance
configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS
files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could
then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the
current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead
would be nice).

> I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to
> miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier
> filtering?

There is room between not missing anything and having less than 24 hours
of history available.

Since you asked (but not a major point): RSS is accessible without
registering an account.

Cheers,
Baptiste

>> [2]
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57F7QJJ2LYBDGZQ5BIXLH7OXWJ/
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On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:41 AM Baptiste Carvello <
devel2022@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
> > On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
> >>
> >> * mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters
> >> to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that).
> >> [...]
>
> > Do you have a proposal we could standardize?
> > Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer
> > around, unless there's a disagreement.
>
> I believe indeed that the devguide should provide complete guidance
> towards getting a python-dev equivalent using mailing-list mode, to
> avoid many users having to reinvent the wheel. I don't have enough
> experience to give such advice myself (yet).
>
> > But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing
> > list get the same set of posts. Different people have different
> interests.
>
> That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus
> want to follow a common set of discussions.


... which is expected to take place on Discourse. A key point here is we
are trying to consolidate after having this split approach for a few years
that people found annoying. We also acknowledge we can't stop people from
talking wherever they want on the internet.


> This is what makes up a
> discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it
> thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be
> sensible enough.
>

But the mailing list has also not served others well either (and people
have explicitly told us the mailing list didn't serve them, so this isn't a
hypothesis), so I don't think it "must be sensible enough" that what
python-dev does is always best/right/sensible. There is no perfect
solution, hence why we had this lengthy discussion to begin with.


>
> > Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.
>
> According to the devguide, "these are the Discourse equivalents to the
> python-dev mailing list". I believe many people want just that. This is
> also the perimeter that makes most sense for long term external
> archival, as it is likely to contain all major design discussions.
>
> >> * RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still
> >> there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age /
> >> length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are
> >> *much* increased.
>
> > I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a
> > feature request to Discourse.
>
> Discourse could indeed make their RSS interface much friendlier. Alas,
> as I say in my previous message, a very useful feature request
> (per-category post feeds) has been lingering for 6 years. So I won't
> hold my breath.
>
> In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance
> configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS
> files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could
> then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the
> current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead
> would be nice).
>

If you can find the setting then we can look at tweaking it, but a quick
glance at the admin interface didn't turn up anything obvious.

-Brett


>
> > I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to
> > miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier
> > filtering?
>
> There is room between not missing anything and having less than 24 hours
> of history available.
>
> Since you asked (but not a major point): RSS is accessible without
> registering an account.
>
> Cheers,
> Baptiste
>
> >> [2]
> >>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57F7QJJ2LYBDGZQ5BIXLH7OXWJ/
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MBARP67IL4X3LUWQGEELTMFPJCLUXBTI/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

Hello,

I'm afraid you misundertood my message. I'm not discussing the choice of
Discourse as a communication medium (which would be futile after the
decision has been made), just the thematic perimeter that would make up
an equivalent of Python-dev (for those hundreds of us who happened to
like it).

Le 22/09/2022 à 19:58, Brett Cannon a écrit :
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:41 AM Baptiste Carvello
> <devel2022@baptiste-carvello.net
> <mailto:devel2022@baptiste-carvello.net>> wrote:
> Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :

> > But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing
> > list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests.

> That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus
> want to follow a common set of discussions.

> ... which is expected to take place on Discourse.
> [...]

"Discourse", without further qualification, is a discussion medium, not
a discussion forum as I mean it ("a group of people sharing common
interests…").

The Python discourse instance is the equivalent of Python-list +
Python-dev + Ideas + Typing + Packaging + whatever else. Nobody is
expected to read all of that, are they? Thus it makes sense to be
interested in a sensible subset of it.

> This is what makes up a
> discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it
> thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be
> sensible enough.

> But the mailing list has also not served others well either
> [...], so I don't think it "must be sensible enough" that
> what python-dev does is always best/right/sensible.
> [...]

My words "sensible enough" only qualified the *thematic perimeter* of
Python-dev: design discussions including PEPs, relation to other
important projects in the community, sometimes general programming
philosophy.

This perimeter is a product of experience. There's a reason Python-dev
was split from Python-list, then Ideas from Python-dev etc. Let history
inform us.

In conclusion, the only thing I'm looking for is a fully working way to
access this information perimeter from a convenient mail-like interface.
Various solutions have been handwaved, but none is ready for prime time.


> In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance
> configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS
> files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could
> then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the
> current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead
> would be nice).
>
>
> If you can find the setting then we can look at tweaking it, but a quick
> glance at the admin interface didn't turn up anything obvious.

Sorry to say, but this is yet another sign that Discourse is not mature
enough for a community as big as Python. This set-in-stone limit is
obviously devised for a very small community.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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