Mailing List Archive: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode)

IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode)

May 26, 2021, 3:46 AM

Post #1 of 12 (658 views)

Hi,

The #python-dev IRC channel moves from Freenode to Libera Chat:
https://libera.chat/ I'm connected as vstinner, see you there ;-) Join
the channel if you would like to talk about the development of Python
itself (the VM, bytecode, stdlib, etc.)!

Moreover, bots notifications (GitHub, buildbots, bugs.python.org) are
now in a new dedicated channel #python-dev-notifs so humans can talk
together again! :-) The migration is on-going, right now some
notifications are still on Freenode.

--

Yesterday evening, Freenode admins decided to take the control of the
#python-fr channel on Freenode (which now redirects to a new
##python-fr channel), only because the channel topic contained
"libera"! The french Python association ("AFPy") managing #python-fr
lost control and decided to migrate to Libera Chat (libera.chat).
Announcement in french:
https://www.afpy.org/posts/actualites/1622023152

I'm disappointed by how the events are going. At least, it motivated
me to move bots notfications ;-)

Victor
--
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
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Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

vstinner at python

May 26, 2021, 6:36 AM

Post #2 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

By the way, #python also moved to Libera Chat: https://www.pound-python.org/

The PSF (Group Contact) owns #python*, #pypa* and #psf* channels on Libera.

I updated the IRC informations in the Python devguide.

I'm still migrating #python-dev-notifs bots to Libera.

Victor

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:46 PM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> The #python-dev IRC channel moves from Freenode to Libera Chat:
> https://libera.chat/ I'm connected as vstinner, see you there ;-) Join
> the channel if you would like to talk about the development of Python
> itself (the VM, bytecode, stdlib, etc.)!
>
> Moreover, bots notifications (GitHub, buildbots, bugs.python.org) are
> now in a new dedicated channel #python-dev-notifs so humans can talk
> together again! :-) The migration is on-going, right now some
> notifications are still on Freenode.
>
> --
>
> Yesterday evening, Freenode admins decided to take the control of the
> #python-fr channel on Freenode (which now redirects to a new
> ##python-fr channel), only because the channel topic contained
> "libera"! The french Python association ("AFPy") managing #python-fr
> lost control and decided to migrate to Libera Chat (libera.chat).
> Announcement in french:
> https://www.afpy.org/posts/actualites/1622023152
>
> I'm disappointed by how the events are going. At least, it motivated
> me to move bots notfications ;-)
>
> Victor
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

--
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/R3YTKHTUPMF3W5UH2YP4ACXHBXTQLQUE/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

guido at python

May 26, 2021, 8:45 AM

Post #3 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

Could someone provide more background on this event? Are there wars going
on between different IRC providers?!?

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 6:43 AM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:

> By the way, #python also moved to Libera Chat:
> https://www.pound-python.org/
>
> The PSF (Group Contact) owns #python*, #pypa* and #psf* channels on
> Libera.
>
> I updated the IRC informations in the Python devguide.
>
> I'm still migrating #python-dev-notifs bots to Libera.
>
> Victor
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:46 PM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > The #python-dev IRC channel moves from Freenode to Libera Chat:
> > https://libera.chat/ I'm connected as vstinner, see you there ;-) Join
> > the channel if you would like to talk about the development of Python
> > itself (the VM, bytecode, stdlib, etc.)!
> >
> > Moreover, bots notifications (GitHub, buildbots, bugs.python.org) are
> > now in a new dedicated channel #python-dev-notifs so humans can talk
> > together again! :-) The migration is on-going, right now some
> > notifications are still on Freenode.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Yesterday evening, Freenode admins decided to take the control of the
> > #python-fr channel on Freenode (which now redirects to a new
> > ##python-fr channel), only because the channel topic contained
> > "libera"! The french Python association ("AFPy") managing #python-fr
> > lost control and decided to migrate to Libera Chat (libera.chat).
> > Announcement in french:
> > https://www.afpy.org/posts/actualites/1622023152
> >
> > I'm disappointed by how the events are going. At least, it motivated
> > me to move bots notfications ;-)
> >
> > Victor
> > --
> > Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
>
>
>
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/R3YTKHTUPMF3W5UH2YP4ACXHBXTQLQUE/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

fred at fdrake

May 26, 2021, 8:52 AM

Post #4 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

I found this article about what's up with FreeNode:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-the-crown-prince-of-korea/

-Fred

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:48 AM Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:

> Could someone provide more background on this event? Are there wars going
> on between different IRC providers?!?
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 6:43 AM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org>
> wrote:
>
>> By the way, #python also moved to Libera Chat:
>> https://www.pound-python.org/
>>
>> The PSF (Group Contact) owns #python*, #pypa* and #psf* channels on
>> Libera.
>>
>> I updated the IRC informations in the Python devguide.
>>
>> I'm still migrating #python-dev-notifs bots to Libera.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:46 PM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > The #python-dev IRC channel moves from Freenode to Libera Chat:
>> > https://libera.chat/ I'm connected as vstinner, see you there ;-) Join
>> > the channel if you would like to talk about the development of Python
>> > itself (the VM, bytecode, stdlib, etc.)!
>> >
>> > Moreover, bots notifications (GitHub, buildbots, bugs.python.org) are
>> > now in a new dedicated channel #python-dev-notifs so humans can talk
>> > together again! :-) The migration is on-going, right now some
>> > notifications are still on Freenode.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Yesterday evening, Freenode admins decided to take the control of the
>> > #python-fr channel on Freenode (which now redirects to a new
>> > ##python-fr channel), only because the channel topic contained
>> > "libera"! The french Python association ("AFPy") managing #python-fr
>> > lost control and decided to migrate to Libera Chat (libera.chat).
>> > Announcement in french:
>> > https://www.afpy.org/posts/actualites/1622023152
>> >
>> > I'm disappointed by how the events are going. At least, it motivated
>> > me to move bots notfications ;-)
>> >
>> > Victor
>> > --
>> > Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
>> Message archived at
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/R3YTKHTUPMF3W5UH2YP4ACXHBXTQLQUE/
>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/IAIOXCDC32BB5OSEK6HUEU244EW7B6DT/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

--
Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fred at fdrake.net>
"There is nothing more uncommon than common sense."
--Frank Lloyd Wright

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

ammar at ammaraskar

May 26, 2021, 8:55 AM

Post #5 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

This section on wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenode#Ownership_change_and_conflict
and this article have a good summary:
https://hackaday.com/2021/05/20/freenode-debacle-prompts-staff-exodus-new-network/

Essentially what happened is that freenode was bought out a while ago
by a company, there was some dispute over access between the "rightful
owners" and the self-organized freenode staff. This caused the
freenode staff to resign and start a new network called libera.chat.
After that a bunch of channels moved over to libera chat and most
recently if your topic mentioned libera.chat, the new freenode owners
will take it over, ban anyone from chatting in it and change the topic
(as happened with #python-fr).
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/OVTBKL344XIAVP4W3PR4MXIPSGAFZUQ4/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

guido at python

May 26, 2021, 8:57 AM

Post #6 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

What a mess! I hope the PSF is healthy enough that that will never happen
to us.

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Ammar Askar <ammar@ammaraskar.com> wrote:

> This section on wikipedia
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenode#Ownership_change_and_conflict
> and this article have a good summary:
>
> https://hackaday.com/2021/05/20/freenode-debacle-prompts-staff-exodus-new-network/
>
> Essentially what happened is that freenode was bought out a while ago
> by a company, there was some dispute over access between the "rightful
> owners" and the self-organized freenode staff. This caused the
> freenode staff to resign and start a new network called libera.chat.
> After that a bunch of channels moved over to libera chat and most
> recently if your topic mentioned libera.chat, the new freenode owners
> will take it over, ban anyone from chatting in it and change the topic
> (as happened with #python-fr).
>

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

thomas at python

May 26, 2021, 8:58 AM

Post #7 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 5:49 PM Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:

> Could someone provide more background on this event? Are there wars going
> on between different IRC providers?!?
>

Not really a war between them, more like a split community. A change of
administration on Freenode (which led to practically all the staff, all of
them volunteers, resigning) followed by policy changes many people disagree
with. The staff that left Freenode started a new network instead, which is
libera.chat. The policy changes and the behaviour of the new staff on
Freenode are problematic for a number of reasons, so the move to
libera.chat is pretty much a no-brainer.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-the-crown-prince-of-korea/
has some of the backstory, and there's
https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409 with more
details on what went wrong, as well as observations like
https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1397384190644002818

>
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 6:43 AM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org>
> wrote:
>
>> By the way, #python also moved to Libera Chat:
>> https://www.pound-python.org/
>>
>> The PSF (Group Contact) owns #python*, #pypa* and #psf* channels on
>> Libera.
>>
>> I updated the IRC informations in the Python devguide.
>>
>> I'm still migrating #python-dev-notifs bots to Libera.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:46 PM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > The #python-dev IRC channel moves from Freenode to Libera Chat:
>> > https://libera.chat/ I'm connected as vstinner, see you there ;-) Join
>> > the channel if you would like to talk about the development of Python
>> > itself (the VM, bytecode, stdlib, etc.)!
>> >
>> > Moreover, bots notifications (GitHub, buildbots, bugs.python.org) are
>> > now in a new dedicated channel #python-dev-notifs so humans can talk
>> > together again! :-) The migration is on-going, right now some
>> > notifications are still on Freenode.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Yesterday evening, Freenode admins decided to take the control of the
>> > #python-fr channel on Freenode (which now redirects to a new
>> > ##python-fr channel), only because the channel topic contained
>> > "libera"! The french Python association ("AFPy") managing #python-fr
>> > lost control and decided to migrate to Libera Chat (libera.chat).
>> > Announcement in french:
>> > https://www.afpy.org/posts/actualites/1622023152
>> >
>> > I'm disappointed by how the events are going. At least, it motivated
>> > me to move bots notfications ;-)
>> >
>> > Victor
>> > --
>> > Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
>> Message archived at
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/R3YTKHTUPMF3W5UH2YP4ACXHBXTQLQUE/
>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/IAIOXCDC32BB5OSEK6HUEU244EW7B6DT/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

--
Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org>

Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
spread!

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

thomas at python

May 26, 2021, 9:09 AM

Post #8 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 6:01 PM Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:

> What a mess! I hope the PSF is healthy enough that that will never happen
> to us.
>

Well, yes, so do I! :) In reality, though, I would say that the PSF has
enough safe-guards, checks and balances, community support and legal clout
to prevent this kind of thing. Freenode had none of that, just a company
created for their conferences which then assumed control over the rest of
the IP.

(This kind of thing is one of the reasons it's important for the PSF
membership and PSF board to adequately represent the actual Python
community. PSF Board elections are soon! Everyone should think about
running for the board :)

> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Ammar Askar <ammar@ammaraskar.com> wrote:
>
>> This section on wikipedia
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenode#Ownership_change_and_conflict
>> and this article have a good summary:
>>
>> https://hackaday.com/2021/05/20/freenode-debacle-prompts-staff-exodus-new-network/
>>
>> Essentially what happened is that freenode was bought out a while ago
>> by a company, there was some dispute over access between the "rightful
>> owners" and the self-organized freenode staff. This caused the
>> freenode staff to resign and start a new network called libera.chat.
>> After that a bunch of channels moved over to libera chat and most
>> recently if your topic mentioned libera.chat, the new freenode owners
>> will take it over, ban anyone from chatting in it and change the topic
>> (as happened with #python-fr).
>>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/SD7KLY2ID4H3BG7HPUZEHPEQGE26L724/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

--
Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org>

Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
spread!

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

greg.ewing at canterbury

May 26, 2021, 4:18 PM

Post #9 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Ammar Askar <ammar@ammaraskar.com
> <mailto:ammar@ammaraskar.com>> wrote:
>
> most
> recently if your topic mentioned libera.chat, the new freenode owners
> will take it over, ban anyone from chatting in it and change the topic

My goodness. Let's hope the new owners eventually learn that behaving
like spoilt 7-year-olds is no way to run a successful company.

--
Greg

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
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Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BOUNCG5BAMXND5LXDH553F6TEHJGZ4MM/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

drsalists at gmail

May 26, 2021, 4:51 PM

Post #10 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 4:25 PM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
wrote:

> > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Ammar Askar <ammar@ammaraskar.com
> > <mailto:ammar@ammaraskar.com>> wrote:
> >
> > most
> > recently if your topic mentioned libera.chat, the new freenode owners
> > will take it over, ban anyone from chatting in it and change the
> topic
>
> My goodness. Let's hope the new owners eventually learn that behaving
> like spoilt 7-year-olds is no way to run a successful company.
>

Sometimes this is a cultural issue. In at least some parts of Asia it
appears to be accepted.

Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

oscar.j.benjamin at gmail

May 26, 2021, 6:57 PM

Post #11 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

On Thu, 27 May 2021 at 00:52, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 4:25 PM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Ammar Askar <ammar@ammaraskar.com
>> > <mailto:ammar@ammaraskar.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > most
>> > recently if your topic mentioned libera.chat, the new freenode owners
>> > will take it over, ban anyone from chatting in it and change the topic
>>
>> My goodness. Let's hope the new owners eventually learn that behaving
>> like spoilt 7-year-olds is no way to run a successful company.
>
> Sometimes this is a cultural issue. In at least some parts of Asia it appears to be accepted.

I don't think this is a cultural issue so much as an issue with a
particular person.

I've never really used IRC or freenode but I realised when reading
about this that Andrew Lee sounded like someone I'd heard about
before. Turns out I do know people who have had direct dealings with
him. The message from those people is clear: avoid him like the
plague. The impression I have is that his intentions are likely not
malicious but his effect (on freenode or anything else) could easily
be devastating in any case.

--
Oscar
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Re: IRC #python-dev channel is now on Libera Chat (bye bye Freenode) [ In reply to ]

steve at pearwood

May 27, 2021, 4:28 AM

Post #12 of 12 (658 views)

Permalink

On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 11:18:16AM +1200, Greg Ewing wrote:
> >On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Ammar Askar <ammar@ammaraskar.com
> ><mailto:ammar@ammaraskar.com>> wrote:
> >
> > most
> > recently if your topic mentioned libera.chat, the new freenode owners
> > will take it over, ban anyone from chatting in it and change the topic
>
> My goodness. Let's hope the new owners eventually learn that behaving
> like spoilt 7-year-olds is no way to run a successful company.

Apple prohibits apps from mentioning competing platforms. If Apple
doesn't count as a successful company, I'm not sure what is.

https://androidcommunity.com/some-apps-in-apples-app-store-rejected-for-mentioning-pebble-support-20150424/

Reddit likewise shadowbans posts that mention at least one, possibly
more, competing forums. And let's not forget the tech industry, lead by
Apple, Google and Amazon, getting Parler banned under the excuse
that the January 6th Capital rioters planned violent attacks on
Parler, when the truth was that the great majority of planning took
place on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2021/02/07/sheryl-sandberg-downplayed-facebooks-role-in-the-capitol-hill-siege-justice-department-files-tell-a-very-different-story/?sh=7a1ab35d10b3

Companies frequently, and often successfully, silence their competition.
It might be reprehensible but it's hardly a barrier to success.

--
Steve
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