Mailing List Archive

March Steering Council update.
The SC has just published the community update for March:

https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md

We're still trying to get these done every month, but between the rush of
PEPs and other issues before the 3.10b1 deadline, and PyCon US, we're
delayed a little. (The April update hopefully won't be too long.) In the
meantime, the SC keynote from PyCon US covers our longer-term plans and our
points of view on a few other subjects, and that will hopefully be up on
YouTube (
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2Uw4_HvXqvYk1Y5P8kryoyd83L_0Uk5K)
soon. (Since it's mentioned in the notes below, I just want to point out
that we didn't record on April 19th; it was pushed back to May 3rd, the
same day 3.10b1 was cut.)

March 1

- Steering Council synced up on the rejection draft for PEP 651. Group
discussed the importance of conveying that all aspects of the proposal were
reviewed and the decision is a holistic one. Group will continue working on
the draft and will sync up via Slack during the week so it can be sent out.
- The Steering Council discussed PEP 648. Barry created a doc and the
group will consolidate feedback+questions into this document. Then the
Steering Council will post this on Discourse as well as to python-dev@.
- The Steering Council extensively discussed PEP 637. The group decided
that it would reject the PEP based on the PEPs costs not being worth the
benefits.
- The Steering Council also discussed typing in general and who should
own it.
- Next week the SC will vote on the Documentation Work Group's charter.

<https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-8>March
8

- The Steering Council discussed Mark's response to the rejection of PEP
651.
- The group also discussed the notification for PEP 637.
- The group approved PEP 624 & PEP 597.
- The Steering Council discussed PEP 644 and decided further
communication was needed with Christian.
- The Steering Council voted on and approved the Documentation Work
Group.
- The group discussed moving master to main and decided it needed to be
done. The SC discussed communication around this change.

<https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-15>March
15

- Thomas updated the notifications for PEP 597, PEP 624 and PEP 637, and
sent out the notifications March 15th.
- Group checked in on the draft for PEP 648. Thomas has more text to add
to it.
- The Steering Council discussed what kind of presentation they will
give at PyCon US. The group decided on a combination of presentation and
Q&A. Team is working on an outline. SC members were also reminded to
register for PyCon US, and encourage others to do so.
- Barry proposed to the SC that they create a Work Group with a subset
of the Python Security Response Team members and that group can help scope
the future of the PSRT group. Everyone is fine with this.
- Steering Council discussed code of conduct situations around changing
master to main. The group decided on a warning to S.D. that will be sent
as a warning to all. Thomas is working on the initial draft.

<https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-22>March
22

- Barry and Thomas checked-in on PEP 648's draft response, they will be
sending it out soon.
- The SC reviewed PEP 644 more. Pablo raised a concern around users that
can be in an env without OpenSSL 1.1.1 or newer and then not being able to
use wheels. Pablo will email Christian to get clarification and will keep
the SC informed.
- Steering Council discussed their keynote at PyCon US 2021. They would
like to gather questions from the community. Ewa will create a Slido, which
will be live from April 5 to 11th. SC will review questions on the 12th.
The current plan is to record on April 19th.
- Steering Council discussed the response to Debian. Carol's done with
her draft. Pablo is going to take a look at it to see if anything else
needs to be added.
- SC discussed the behavior on python-dev@ pertaining to switching git
from master to main.

<https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-29>March
29

- The Steering Council accepted PEP 644 (Require OpenSSL 1.1.1 or newer)
- SC accepted PEP 652 (Maintaining the Stable ABI)
- SC checked in on the draft response for PEP 648 (Extensible
customizations of the interpreter at startup), and the draft response to
the Debian discussion.
- SC met with Ezio, PM for the GitHub Issues migration, to talk about
status, progress and next steps, including keeping python-dev up to date.


--
Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org>

Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
spread!
Re: March Steering Council update. [ In reply to ]
There are a few mentions of Debian, but no explanation of what the issue is
about. Can you elaborate on that?

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 06:15 Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org> wrote:

>
> The SC has just published the community update for March:
>
>
> https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md
>
> We're still trying to get these done every month, but between the rush of
> PEPs and other issues before the 3.10b1 deadline, and PyCon US, we're
> delayed a little. (The April update hopefully won't be too long.) In the
> meantime, the SC keynote from PyCon US covers our longer-term plans and our
> points of view on a few other subjects, and that will hopefully be up on
> YouTube (
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2Uw4_HvXqvYk1Y5P8kryoyd83L_0Uk5K)
> soon. (Since it's mentioned in the notes below, I just want to point out
> that we didn't record on April 19th; it was pushed back to May 3rd, the
> same day 3.10b1 was cut.)
>
> March 1
>
> - Steering Council synced up on the rejection draft for PEP 651. Group
> discussed the importance of conveying that all aspects of the proposal were
> reviewed and the decision is a holistic one. Group will continue working on
> the draft and will sync up via Slack during the week so it can be sent out.
> - The Steering Council discussed PEP 648. Barry created a doc and the
> group will consolidate feedback+questions into this document. Then the
> Steering Council will post this on Discourse as well as to python-dev@.
> - The Steering Council extensively discussed PEP 637. The group
> decided that it would reject the PEP based on the PEPs costs not being
> worth the benefits.
> - The Steering Council also discussed typing in general and who should
> own it.
> - Next week the SC will vote on the Documentation Work Group's charter.
>
>
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-8>March
> 8
>
> - The Steering Council discussed Mark's response to the rejection of
> PEP 651.
> - The group also discussed the notification for PEP 637.
> - The group approved PEP 624 & PEP 597.
> - The Steering Council discussed PEP 644 and decided further
> communication was needed with Christian.
> - The Steering Council voted on and approved the Documentation Work
> Group.
> - The group discussed moving master to main and decided it needed to
> be done. The SC discussed communication around this change.
>
>
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-15>March
> 15
>
> - Thomas updated the notifications for PEP 597, PEP 624 and PEP 637,
> and sent out the notifications March 15th.
> - Group checked in on the draft for PEP 648. Thomas has more text to
> add to it.
> - The Steering Council discussed what kind of presentation they will
> give at PyCon US. The group decided on a combination of presentation and
> Q&A. Team is working on an outline. SC members were also reminded to
> register for PyCon US, and encourage others to do so.
> - Barry proposed to the SC that they create a Work Group with a subset
> of the Python Security Response Team members and that group can help scope
> the future of the PSRT group. Everyone is fine with this.
> - Steering Council discussed code of conduct situations around
> changing master to main. The group decided on a warning to S.D. that
> will be sent as a warning to all. Thomas is working on the initial draft.
>
>
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-22>March
> 22
>
> - Barry and Thomas checked-in on PEP 648's draft response, they will
> be sending it out soon.
> - The SC reviewed PEP 644 more. Pablo raised a concern around users
> that can be in an env without OpenSSL 1.1.1 or newer and then not being
> able to use wheels. Pablo will email Christian to get clarification and
> will keep the SC informed.
> - Steering Council discussed their keynote at PyCon US 2021. They
> would like to gather questions from the community. Ewa will create a Slido,
> which will be live from April 5 to 11th. SC will review questions on the
> 12th. The current plan is to record on April 19th.
> - Steering Council discussed the response to Debian. Carol's done with
> her draft. Pablo is going to take a look at it to see if anything else
> needs to be added.
> - SC discussed the behavior on python-dev@ pertaining to switching git
> from master to main.
>
>
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-29>March
> 29
>
> - The Steering Council accepted PEP 644 (Require OpenSSL 1.1.1 or
> newer)
> - SC accepted PEP 652 (Maintaining the Stable ABI)
> - SC checked in on the draft response for PEP 648 (Extensible
> customizations of the interpreter at startup), and the draft response to
> the Debian discussion.
> - SC met with Ezio, PM for the GitHub Issues migration, to talk about
> status, progress and next steps, including keeping python-dev up to date.
>
>
> --
> Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org>
>
> Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
> spread!
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/AASYLO6QS2XA3UQ7WW363OJVCWDRNJCV/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
--
--Guido (mobile)
Re: March Steering Council update. [ In reply to ]
Thanks for the update!

I know this request is a little ironic coming from me, but would it be
possible to state the PEP titles the first time they're mentioned each
month?

Cross referencing is a little awkward when reading the summary on a phone
rather than a full computer.

Cheers,
Nick.

On Tue, 18 May 2021, 11:12 pm Thomas Wouters, <thomas@python.org> wrote:

>
> The SC has just published the community update for March:
>
>
> https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md
>
> We're still trying to get these done every month, but between the rush of
> PEPs and other issues before the 3.10b1 deadline, and PyCon US, we're
> delayed a little. (The April update hopefully won't be too long.) In the
> meantime, the SC keynote from PyCon US covers our longer-term plans and our
> points of view on a few other subjects, and that will hopefully be up on
> YouTube (
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2Uw4_HvXqvYk1Y5P8kryoyd83L_0Uk5K)
> soon. (Since it's mentioned in the notes below, I just want to point out
> that we didn't record on April 19th; it was pushed back to May 3rd, the
> same day 3.10b1 was cut.)
>
> March 1
>
> - Steering Council synced up on the rejection draft for PEP 651. Group
> discussed the importance of conveying that all aspects of the proposal were
> reviewed and the decision is a holistic one. Group will continue working on
> the draft and will sync up via Slack during the week so it can be sent out.
> - The Steering Council discussed PEP 648. Barry created a doc and the
> group will consolidate feedback+questions into this document. Then the
> Steering Council will post this on Discourse as well as to python-dev@.
> - The Steering Council extensively discussed PEP 637. The group
> decided that it would reject the PEP based on the PEPs costs not being
> worth the benefits.
> - The Steering Council also discussed typing in general and who should
> own it.
> - Next week the SC will vote on the Documentation Work Group's charter.
>
>
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-8>March
> 8
>
> - The Steering Council discussed Mark's response to the rejection of
> PEP 651.
> - The group also discussed the notification for PEP 637.
> - The group approved PEP 624 & PEP 597.
> - The Steering Council discussed PEP 644 and decided further
> communication was needed with Christian.
> - The Steering Council voted on and approved the Documentation Work
> Group.
> - The group discussed moving master to main and decided it needed to
> be done. The SC discussed communication around this change.
>
>
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-15>March
> 15
>
> - Thomas updated the notifications for PEP 597, PEP 624 and PEP 637,
> and sent out the notifications March 15th.
> - Group checked in on the draft for PEP 648. Thomas has more text to
> add to it.
> - The Steering Council discussed what kind of presentation they will
> give at PyCon US. The group decided on a combination of presentation and
> Q&A. Team is working on an outline. SC members were also reminded to
> register for PyCon US, and encourage others to do so.
> - Barry proposed to the SC that they create a Work Group with a subset
> of the Python Security Response Team members and that group can help scope
> the future of the PSRT group. Everyone is fine with this.
> - Steering Council discussed code of conduct situations around
> changing master to main. The group decided on a warning to S.D. that
> will be sent as a warning to all. Thomas is working on the initial draft.
>
>
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-22>March
> 22
>
> - Barry and Thomas checked-in on PEP 648's draft response, they will
> be sending it out soon.
> - The SC reviewed PEP 644 more. Pablo raised a concern around users
> that can be in an env without OpenSSL 1.1.1 or newer and then not being
> able to use wheels. Pablo will email Christian to get clarification and
> will keep the SC informed.
> - Steering Council discussed their keynote at PyCon US 2021. They
> would like to gather questions from the community. Ewa will create a Slido,
> which will be live from April 5 to 11th. SC will review questions on the
> 12th. The current plan is to record on April 19th.
> - Steering Council discussed the response to Debian. Carol's done with
> her draft. Pablo is going to take a look at it to see if anything else
> needs to be added.
> - SC discussed the behavior on python-dev@ pertaining to switching git
> from master to main.
>
>
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-29>March
> 29
>
> - The Steering Council accepted PEP 644 (Require OpenSSL 1.1.1 or
> newer)
> - SC accepted PEP 652 (Maintaining the Stable ABI)
> - SC checked in on the draft response for PEP 648 (Extensible
> customizations of the interpreter at startup), and the draft response to
> the Debian discussion.
> - SC met with Ezio, PM for the GitHub Issues migration, to talk about
> status, progress and next steps, including keeping python-dev up to date.
>
>
> --
> Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org>
>
> Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
> spread!
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/AASYLO6QS2XA3UQ7WW363OJVCWDRNJCV/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
Re: March Steering Council update. [ In reply to ]
On 18/05/2021 16.19, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> There are a few mentions of Debian, but no explanation of what the issue
> is about. Can you elaborate on that?

Debian and Debian-based distros like Ubuntu are applying downstream
packages and split CPython interpreter and stdlib into multiple
packages. For example venv and distutils is split out and ensurepip is
patched out. Debian packages were also missing dependencies on
ca-certificates and tzdata, which are required for Python's ssl and
zoneinfo modules. The changes caused usability issues for new and
sometimes even for seasoned users of Python.

I have contacted the SC in the beginning of this year and asked them to
work with Debian maintainers. Some issues have been addressed and will
be available in future releases. Matthias' talk at the language summit
is related to the effort of improving Debian packaging.

Christian
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VV5IVOSIKWV5END64PXNAFEQ2SNGP3VS/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: March Steering Council update. [ In reply to ]
Thanks, that's the context I was missing!

Package management is hard. No wonder some folks try to bypass the whole
thing and use Docker images instead. :-(

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 8:56 AM Christian Heimes <christian@python.org>
wrote:

> On 18/05/2021 16.19, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > There are a few mentions of Debian, but no explanation of what the issue
> > is about. Can you elaborate on that?
>
> Debian and Debian-based distros like Ubuntu are applying downstream
> packages and split CPython interpreter and stdlib into multiple
> packages. For example venv and distutils is split out and ensurepip is
> patched out. Debian packages were also missing dependencies on
> ca-certificates and tzdata, which are required for Python's ssl and
> zoneinfo modules. The changes caused usability issues for new and
> sometimes even for seasoned users of Python.
>
> I have contacted the SC in the beginning of this year and asked them to
> work with Debian maintainers. Some issues have been addressed and will
> be available in future releases. Matthias' talk at the language summit
> is related to the effort of improving Debian packaging.
>
> Christian
>


--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
Re: March Steering Council update. [ In reply to ]
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 4:27 PM Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the update!
>
> I know this request is a little ironic coming from me, but would it be
> possible to state the PEP titles the first time they're mentioned each
> month?
>

Yep. I usually do this, not sure why I forgot this time. The update was
updated.


>
> Cross referencing is a little awkward when reading the summary on a phone
> rather than a full computer.
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
>
> On Tue, 18 May 2021, 11:12 pm Thomas Wouters, <thomas@python.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> The SC has just published the community update for March:
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md
>>
>> We're still trying to get these done every month, but between the rush of
>> PEPs and other issues before the 3.10b1 deadline, and PyCon US, we're
>> delayed a little. (The April update hopefully won't be too long.) In the
>> meantime, the SC keynote from PyCon US covers our longer-term plans and our
>> points of view on a few other subjects, and that will hopefully be up on
>> YouTube (
>> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2Uw4_HvXqvYk1Y5P8kryoyd83L_0Uk5K)
>> soon. (Since it's mentioned in the notes below, I just want to point out
>> that we didn't record on April 19th; it was pushed back to May 3rd, the
>> same day 3.10b1 was cut.)
>>
>> March 1
>>
>> - Steering Council synced up on the rejection draft for PEP 651.
>> Group discussed the importance of conveying that all aspects of the
>> proposal were reviewed and the decision is a holistic one. Group will
>> continue working on the draft and will sync up via Slack during the week so
>> it can be sent out.
>> - The Steering Council discussed PEP 648. Barry created a doc and the
>> group will consolidate feedback+questions into this document. Then the
>> Steering Council will post this on Discourse as well as to python-dev@
>> .
>> - The Steering Council extensively discussed PEP 637. The group
>> decided that it would reject the PEP based on the PEPs costs not being
>> worth the benefits.
>> - The Steering Council also discussed typing in general and who
>> should own it.
>> - Next week the SC will vote on the Documentation Work Group's
>> charter.
>>
>>
>> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-8>March
>> 8
>>
>> - The Steering Council discussed Mark's response to the rejection of
>> PEP 651.
>> - The group also discussed the notification for PEP 637.
>> - The group approved PEP 624 & PEP 597.
>> - The Steering Council discussed PEP 644 and decided further
>> communication was needed with Christian.
>> - The Steering Council voted on and approved the Documentation Work
>> Group.
>> - The group discussed moving master to main and decided it needed to
>> be done. The SC discussed communication around this change.
>>
>>
>> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-15>March
>> 15
>>
>> - Thomas updated the notifications for PEP 597, PEP 624 and PEP 637,
>> and sent out the notifications March 15th.
>> - Group checked in on the draft for PEP 648. Thomas has more text to
>> add to it.
>> - The Steering Council discussed what kind of presentation they will
>> give at PyCon US. The group decided on a combination of presentation and
>> Q&A. Team is working on an outline. SC members were also reminded to
>> register for PyCon US, and encourage others to do so.
>> - Barry proposed to the SC that they create a Work Group with a
>> subset of the Python Security Response Team members and that group can help
>> scope the future of the PSRT group. Everyone is fine with this.
>> - Steering Council discussed code of conduct situations around
>> changing master to main. The group decided on a warning to S.D. that
>> will be sent as a warning to all. Thomas is working on the initial draft.
>>
>>
>> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-22>March
>> 22
>>
>> - Barry and Thomas checked-in on PEP 648's draft response, they will
>> be sending it out soon.
>> - The SC reviewed PEP 644 more. Pablo raised a concern around users
>> that can be in an env without OpenSSL 1.1.1 or newer and then not being
>> able to use wheels. Pablo will email Christian to get clarification and
>> will keep the SC informed.
>> - Steering Council discussed their keynote at PyCon US 2021. They
>> would like to gather questions from the community. Ewa will create a Slido,
>> which will be live from April 5 to 11th. SC will review questions on the
>> 12th. The current plan is to record on April 19th.
>> - Steering Council discussed the response to Debian. Carol's done
>> with her draft. Pablo is going to take a look at it to see if anything else
>> needs to be added.
>> - SC discussed the behavior on python-dev@ pertaining to switching
>> git from master to main.
>>
>>
>> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-03-steering-council-update.md#march-29>March
>> 29
>>
>> - The Steering Council accepted PEP 644 (Require OpenSSL 1.1.1 or
>> newer)
>> - SC accepted PEP 652 (Maintaining the Stable ABI)
>> - SC checked in on the draft response for PEP 648 (Extensible
>> customizations of the interpreter at startup), and the draft response to
>> the Debian discussion.
>> - SC met with Ezio, PM for the GitHub Issues migration, to talk about
>> status, progress and next steps, including keeping python-dev up to date.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org>
>>
>> Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
>> spread!
>> _______________________________________________
>> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
>> Message archived at
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/AASYLO6QS2XA3UQ7WW363OJVCWDRNJCV/
>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>

--
Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org>

Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
spread!