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Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10?
During the development of cpython 3.10, Sphinx was bumped to 3.2.1.

Problem is Sphinx 3 have some incompatibilities with Sphinx 2, some that
we could work around, some are bit harder, so we may need to bump
`needs_sphinx = '3.2'` (currently it is 1.8).

I found two incompatibilities:

- We're using :no-trim-doctest-flags:, introduced in Sphinx 3.2.0, if we
build with Sphinx < 3.2.0 the blocks using it are dropped by Sphinx (we
use it in library/doctest).

- double backslashes in domain directives are no longer replaced by
single backslashes. But a configuration value
(strip_signature_backslash) can be used to have the same behavior on
Sphinx 2 and 3.

So yes, it's still possible to build the docs with Sphinx 1.8 using
`make html SPHINXERRORHANDLING=`, it "works" but:

- Doctests code blocks using no-trim-doctest-flags dissapear.
- Some functions declarations are lacking a backslash, like
print(*objects, sep=' ', end='n', ...

Which is bad.

For the first one we could still workaround with an ugly `sed -i
/no-trim-doctest-flags/d`, or simply stop using it (and reopen bpo-36675).
For the 2nd one we could use `strip_signature_backslash` in cpython 3.10
to have the same behavior.

So the question is: Should we bump minimum version of Sphinx from 1.8 to
3.2.1 along with Python 3.10? For the moment this is where we go, but if
you're having to maintain a release of Python along with Sphinx < 3,
please make speak.

Conversation has already started here [1] and here [2].

[1]: https://bugs.python.org/issue42843
[2]: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/24142

--
[Julien Palard](https://mdk.fr)
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 08:38:17PM +0000, Julien Palard via Python-Dev wrote:

> - Some functions declarations are lacking a backslash, like
> print(*objects, sep=' ', end='n', ...
>
> Which is bad.

Wouldn't this a bug with Sphinx?
Why would that be special cased with a flag (strip_signature_backslash)?


> For the moment this is where we go, but if

+1. Keeping the documentation dependency updated

I noticed that you suggested not to backport this PR
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/24142

* Would that mean we have to careful not to use/merge sphinx features like
`no-trim-doctest-flags` to older docs?

* What would it take to keep all active versions of Cpython docs build at the
same min version (possibly 3.2)?

As Cpython developer, I see nothing bad, but platform maintainers seem to have
some concerns, and it will be good to see points against this.

Thank you,
Senthil




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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
Since documentation changes are backported to 3.8 and 3.9 stable
branches, if we increase the minimum required Sphinx version in
master, I would prefer to also increase it in 3.8 and 3.9 branches.

I would prefer to not have to check manually if a doc backport PR is
still compatible with Sphinx 2 or not. If we skip some doc backports,
conflicts will become more likely with following doc backports.

--

I looked at Sphinx and Python versions of Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42843#msg384963

In my list, there is only Debian Buster (stable) which doesn't have
Sphinx 3 yet. It uses Python 3.7 and so would not be affected by
Python 3.8 changes.

--

The alternative is to keep Sphinx 2 support, use
strip_signature_backslash and don't use :no-trim-doctest-flags: ?

Victor

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 9:44 PM Julien Palard via Python-Dev
<python-dev@python.org> wrote:
>
> During the development of cpython 3.10, Sphinx was bumped to 3.2.1.
>
> Problem is Sphinx 3 have some incompatibilities with Sphinx 2, some that
> we could work around, some are bit harder, so we may need to bump
> `needs_sphinx = '3.2'` (currently it is 1.8).
>
> I found two incompatibilities:
>
> - We're using :no-trim-doctest-flags:, introduced in Sphinx 3.2.0, if we
> build with Sphinx < 3.2.0 the blocks using it are dropped by Sphinx (we
> use it in library/doctest).
>
> - double backslashes in domain directives are no longer replaced by
> single backslashes. But a configuration value
> (strip_signature_backslash) can be used to have the same behavior on
> Sphinx 2 and 3.
>
> So yes, it's still possible to build the docs with Sphinx 1.8 using
> `make html SPHINXERRORHANDLING=`, it "works" but:
>
> - Doctests code blocks using no-trim-doctest-flags dissapear.
> - Some functions declarations are lacking a backslash, like
> print(*objects, sep=' ', end='n', ...
>
> Which is bad.
>
> For the first one we could still workaround with an ugly `sed -i
> /no-trim-doctest-flags/d`, or simply stop using it (and reopen bpo-36675).
> For the 2nd one we could use `strip_signature_backslash` in cpython 3.10
> to have the same behavior.
>
> So the question is: Should we bump minimum version of Sphinx from 1.8 to
> 3.2.1 along with Python 3.10? For the moment this is where we go, but if
> you're having to maintain a release of Python along with Sphinx < 3,
> please make speak.
>
> Conversation has already started here [1] and here [2].
>
> [1]: https://bugs.python.org/issue42843
> [2]: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/24142
>
> --
> [Julien Palard](https://mdk.fr)
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:28:42AM +0100, Victor Stinner wrote:

> The alternative is to keep Sphinx 2 support, use
> strip_signature_backslash and don't use :no-trim-doctest-flags: ?

+1. :no-trim-doctest-flags: was introduced to python docs only recently, so not
using that is a reasonable suggestion.

I support keeping same Sphinx version across all the supported python versions.

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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On 13. 01. 21 0:28, Victor Stinner wrote:
> I looked at Sphinx and Python versions of Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue42843#msg384963
>
> In my list, there is only Debian Buster (stable) which doesn't have
> Sphinx 3 yet. It uses Python 3.7 and so would not be affected by
> Python 3.8 changes.

Hello Victor.

In Fedora 32, we have Sphinx 2.2.2 and Python 3.8. Fedora 32 goes EOL in May
2021. Until then, it would eb great if we could keep compatibility with Sphinx 2
in Python 3.8 (but if we don't, no big deal, we just won't update the docs there).

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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On 13.01.2021 2:47, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:28:42AM +0100, Victor Stinner wrote:
>
>> The alternative is to keep Sphinx 2 support, use
>> strip_signature_backslash and don't use :no-trim-doctest-flags: ?
> +1. :no-trim-doctest-flags: was introduced to python docs only recently, so not
> using that is a reasonable suggestion.
>
> I support keeping same Sphinx version across all the supported python versions.

This is not a sustainable route since this way, there's no way to change the version at all.

>
> --
> Senthil
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Regards,
Ivan
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 02:53:30AM +0300, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:
> > I support keeping same Sphinx version across all the supported python versions.
>
> This is not a sustainable route since this way, there's no way to change the version at all.
>

By supported, I mean the active versions that we backport patches to.
Same as what Victor said.

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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On 1/13/21 12:28 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Since documentation changes are backported to 3.8 and 3.9 stable
> branches, if we increase the minimum required Sphinx version in
> master, I would prefer to also increase it in 3.8 and 3.9 branches.
>
> I would prefer to not have to check manually if a doc backport PR is
> still compatible with Sphinx 2 or not. If we skip some doc backports,
> conflicts will become more likely with following doc backports.
>
> --
>
> I looked at Sphinx and Python versions of Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue42843#msg384963
>
> In my list, there is only Debian Buster (stable) which doesn't have
> Sphinx 3 yet. It uses Python 3.7 and so would not be affected by
> Python 3.8 changes.

That's not true. Ubuntu 20.04 LTS still sees updates to subminor Python 3.8
versions, having sphinx 1.8.5.

Matthias
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On 13.01.2021 3:12, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 02:53:30AM +0300, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:
>>> I support keeping same Sphinx version across all the supported python versions.
>> This is not a sustainable route since this way, there's no way to change the version at all.
>>
> By supported, I mean the active versions that we backport patches to.
> Same as what Victor said.

That's what I meant, too.

E.g. when 3.11 comes out and 3.8 is EOL, it will still have to stick with the old sphinx because 3.9 and 3.10 do -- and so on ad infinum.


>
> --
> Senthil

--
Regards,
Ivan
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
Le 2021-01-13 à 00:09, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
> Wouldn't this a bug with Sphinx?

No, this is a documented breaking change between Sphinx 2 and Sphinx 3.

> Why would that be special cased with a flag (strip_signature_backslash)?

The strip_signature_backslash has been introduced to allow Sphinx 3 to
behave like Sphinx 2 in respect of backslash in signatures. It would
allow us to write Sphinx 2 and Sphinx 3 compatible doc.

> I noticed that you suggested not to backport this PR
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/24142

I'm against changing the major version of the Sphinx we use during the
life of a release. It looks already hard for distrib maintainers to
handle a Sphinx upgrade for the next release, let's not upgrade it on
live releases.

In other words: it may or may not be OK to bump Sphinx for a minor
Python release, but it's clearly not for a patch release (only my point
of view).

> * Would that mean we have to careful not to use/merge sphinx features like
> `no-trim-doctest-flags` to older docs?

Exactly: backporting a Doc commit could not work, but it would be
spotted by the tests and not mergeable, as we use `-W` flag of Sphinx
build (treat warnings as errors).

> * What would it take to keep all active versions of Cpython docs build at the
> same min version (possibly 3.2)?

As said previously, I don't think it's OK to bump Python 3.7 to use
Sphinx 3 now.

> As Cpython developer, I see nothing bad, but platform maintainers seem to have
> some concerns, and it will be good to see points against this.

That's exactly why I opened this thread, if it's OK for all platform
maintainers, we'll do this, but if not, we can revert a few commits and
postpone the Sphinx upgrade, no worries.

--
[Julien Palard](https://mdk.fr)
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
Le 2021-01-13 à 00:28, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> Since documentation changes are backported to 3.8 and 3.9 stable
> branches, if we increase the minimum required Sphinx version in
> master, I would prefer to also increase it in 3.8 and 3.9 branches.

Bumping a dependency on the next release is already hard, I don't think
we can bump dependencies on current releases like Python 3.8.

> I would prefer to not have to check manually if a doc backport PR is
> still compatible with Sphinx 2 or not.

As we're using `-W` flag of sphinx-build, the tests would spot it and
mark the backport PR as not mergeable. The doc would diverge from a
branch to another, but it already does, so I do not worry a lot about
conflicts.

> The alternative is to keep Sphinx 2 support, use
> strip_signature_backslash and don't use :no-trim-doctest-flags: ?

Exact, totally doable for a few years to ease the migration, we could
even keep Sphinx 1.8 support for a few years as it still works with
those two "fixes" applied (it would imply reopening
https://bugs.python.org/issue36675 but I'm not against it).

--
[Julien Palard](https://mdk.fr)
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
Hi Matthias,

Le 2021-01-13 à 12:27, Matthias Klose a écrit :
> That's not true. Ubuntu 20.04 LTS still sees updates to subminor Python 3.8
> versions, having sphinx 1.8.5.

I do agree to *not* bump our Sphinx dependencies for already published
Pythons.

Would it be OK to bump Sphinx to 3.2 for Python 3.10? Or would it be
better to keep Sphinx 2 compatibility for a few years (how many?) before
requiring Sphinx 3?

Bests,
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
12.01.21 22:38, Julien Palard via Python-Dev ????:
> During the development of cpython 3.10, Sphinx was bumped to 3.2.1.
>
> Problem is Sphinx 3 have some incompatibilities with Sphinx 2, some that
> we could work around, some are bit harder, so we may need to bump
> `needs_sphinx = '3.2'` (currently it is 1.8).

Sphinx version in the current Ubuntu LTS (20.04) is 1.8.5. Would not it
cause problems with builting documentation on Ubuntu?
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
13.01.21 01:28, Victor Stinner ????:
> I looked at Sphinx and Python versions of Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue42843#msg384963
>
> In my list, there is only Debian Buster (stable) which doesn't have
> Sphinx 3 yet. It uses Python 3.7 and so would not be affected by
> Python 3.8 changes.

Also Ubuntu. Ubuntu 20.04 has only Sphinx 1.8.5, but Python 3.8 and 3.9.
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
Hi Julien,

I think that there are two items to consider:
- `needs_sphinx` in `conf.py`
- setting for Sphinx in `cpython/Doc/requirements.txt`

I believe that the `needs_sphinx` field identifies the minimal version of
Sphinx that can be used to build the docs. The actual version that is used
to build the docs is in the `requirements.txt` file.


On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:29 AM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com>
wrote:

> 12.01.21 22:38, Julien Palard via Python-Dev ????:
> > During the development of cpython 3.10, Sphinx was bumped to 3.2.1.
> >
> > Problem is Sphinx 3 have some incompatibilities with Sphinx 2, some that
> > we could work around, some are bit harder, so we may need to bump
> > `needs_sphinx = '3.2'` (currently it is 1.8).
>
> Sphinx version in the current Ubuntu LTS (20.04) is 1.8.5. Would not it
> cause problems with builting documentation on Ubuntu?
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>
Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:25 AM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com>
wrote:

> 12.01.21 22:38, Julien Palard via Python-Dev ????:
> > During the development of cpython 3.10, Sphinx was bumped to 3.2.1.
> >
> > Problem is Sphinx 3 have some incompatibilities with Sphinx 2, some that
> > we could work around, some are bit harder, so we may need to bump
> > `needs_sphinx = '3.2'` (currently it is 1.8).
>
> Sphinx version in the current Ubuntu LTS (20.04) is 1.8.5. Would not it
> cause problems with builting documentation on Ubuntu?
>

Why can't contributors install from PyPI? The venv created by the
Docs/Makefile does a pip install, so I don't see why what version of Sphinx
is packaged via APT is a critical blocker in upgrading Sphinx.
Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
My take on this is to keep it simple for CPython: Require the newer version
of Sphinx on all branches we backport docs changes to.

We, the CPython project, determine the exact version(s) of Sphinx a
documentation build for a given version of CPython requires. If Sphinx has
unfortunately made a breaking change (as appears to be the case?), we
should update our docs for all versions we backport doc changes to to use
the most modern version (along with the docs themselves).

We should explicitly not care at all about people using external sphinx
installs that are not fetched at the correct version via our Doc tree's
Doc/requirements.txt.

That some distros want to use their own incompatible-version packaged
version of sphinx to build our docs is on them to handle on their own. Not
on the CPython project. That was never a guaranteed thing that would
work. Until now, they merely got lucky. This is a docs build-time
dependency with no impact on anything at runtime so we should be free to
change versions as we see fit.

-gps


On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 8:25 AM Carol Willing <willingc@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Julien,
>
> I think that there are two items to consider:
> - `needs_sphinx` in `conf.py`
> - setting for Sphinx in `cpython/Doc/requirements.txt`
>
> I believe that the `needs_sphinx` field identifies the minimal version of
> Sphinx that can be used to build the docs. The actual version that is used
> to build the docs is in the `requirements.txt` file.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:29 AM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> 12.01.21 22:38, Julien Palard via Python-Dev ????:
>> > During the development of cpython 3.10, Sphinx was bumped to 3.2.1.
>> >
>> > Problem is Sphinx 3 have some incompatibilities with Sphinx 2, some
>> that
>> > we could work around, some are bit harder, so we may need to bump
>> > `needs_sphinx = '3.2'` (currently it is 1.8).
>>
>> Sphinx version in the current Ubuntu LTS (20.04) is 1.8.5. Would not it
>> cause problems with builting documentation on Ubuntu?
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On 1/13/21 8:24 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:25 AM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com
> <mailto:storchaka@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> 12.01.21 22:38, Julien Palard via Python-Dev ????:
> > During the development of cpython 3.10, Sphinx was bumped to 3.2.1.
> >
> > Problem is Sphinx 3 have some incompatibilities with Sphinx 2,
> some that
> > we could work around, some are bit harder, so we may need to bump
> > `needs_sphinx = '3.2'` (currently it is 1.8).
>
> Sphinx version in the current Ubuntu LTS (20.04) is 1.8.5. Would not it
> cause problems with builting documentation on Ubuntu?
>
>
> Why can't contributors install from PyPI? The venv created by the
> Docs/Makefile does a pip install, so I don't see why what version of
> Sphinx is packaged via APT is a critical blocker in upgrading Sphinx.

I trust the CPython core devs, and I trust my distro's processes and
packagers, but not necessarily the PyPI maintainers of Sphinx's
requirements.
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
Thanks everyone for the feedback.

I think the best way to handle this is to make the three next releases
(3.10, 3.11, 3.12) Sphinx 2 and Sphinx 3 compatible, this would gather
requiered benefits:

- Ease of backporting: from any dev version we can backport
documentation changes to the previous two releases.
- Ease of packaging: We're not requiering Sphinx 3 today but in like 3
years, a point where this could be discussed again to see if everyone is
ready.

If this plan is OK for everyone, I'll try a PR soon™ to make this
compatibility with Sphinx2/3 land in 3.10.

--
[Julien Palard](https://mdk.fr)
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Re: Bumping minimum Sphinx version to 3.2 for cpython 3.10? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 08:24:54AM +0000, Julien Palard via Python-Dev wrote:
> I think the best way to handle this is to make the three next releases
> (3.10, 3.11, 3.12) Sphinx 2 and Sphinx 3 compatible, this would gather
> requiered benefits:
>
> If this plan is OK for everyone, I'll try a PR soon™ to make this
> compatibility with Sphinx2/3 land in 3.10.
>

This sounds great. It makes one less thing to worry about from a CPython
developer perspective.

--
Senthil
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