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Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 2:29 PM Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net>
wrote:

> On 2021-01-25 10:51 a.m., Corwin Brust wrote:
> > Please forgive this top-post, hastily composed over a short lunch :)
> >
> > Is there evidence suggesting a read-only RT will take less effort to
> maintain?
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 02:57 Leon Timmermans wrote:
> > Quite frankly, "rt loses all data" may actually be less work for me
> > than "rt becomes read-only"
>
> Part of my proposal is that the RT software goes away entirely and that
> the
> read-only archive is just a set of static HTML pages plus a static
> database
> dump, both downloadable and the former is what continues to be hosted.
>
> Even if read-only, I understand the primary issue with continuing to use
> the RT
> software is its being possibly unmaintained complex software that presents
> a
> sizeable attack surface and sizeable maintenance burden.
>
> So if the archive is simply a static dump in multiple formats, HTML for
> easy
> reading which a generic search engine can index, and SQL etc for easy
> importing
> for more complex analysis, this presents a minimal almost set it and
> forget it
> maintenance burden, put it on a plain vanilla server, and it is easy for
> any
> interested person to download a copy which is more backups.
>
> So the RT software can just go away, just keep the data.
>
> This is assuming that everything of value is safe to make public. If
> anything
> in the database should only be seen by authenticated users or is
> privileged or
> is security sensitive, that would have to be scrubbed from this.
>

I appreciate the motivation for the suggestions, but this discussion is
rather moot, because 1) a static archive was always the plan, 2) a second
static archive already exists (https://github.com/rt-cpan/rt-cpan.github.io),
3) this doesn't solve the immediate concerns of active RT users.

-Dan
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:29 PM Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> wrote:
> Part of my proposal is that the RT software goes away entirely and that the
> read-only archive is just a set of static HTML pages plus a static database
> dump, both downloadable and the former is what continues to be hosted.
>
> Even if read-only, I understand the primary issue with continuing to use the RT
> software is its being possibly unmaintained complex software that presents a
> sizeable attack surface and sizeable maintenance burden.
>
> So if the archive is simply a static dump in multiple formats, HTML for easy
> reading which a generic search engine can index, and SQL etc for easy importing
> for more complex analysis, this presents a minimal almost set it and forget it
> maintenance burden, put it on a plain vanilla server, and it is easy for any
> interested person to download a copy which is more backups.
>
> So the RT software can just go away, just keep the data.
>
> This is assuming that everything of value is safe to make public. If anything
> in the database should only be seen by authenticated users or is privileged or
> is security sensitive, that would have to be scrubbed from this.

I think I phrased my point terribly, but let me try again: having a
readonly archive has limited practical value beyond saving historical
information. Not breaking existing links is nice, but that's really
just about it. It is in no way a situation that is less work to deal
with than it dropping out of existence entirely, the only advantage of
it is that we don't lose existing data if we postpone dealing with the
calamity. It doesn't make dealing with it any less work.

Because the calamity is that 80% of CPAN is suddenly no longer having
a working bug tracker, leaving users and vendors with no designated
and reliable way to contact the (current and future) authors. That
will need to be resolved regardless.

Leon
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On 2021-01-19 4:27 p.m., Christian Walde wrote:
> Only a miniscule part. The biggest issue is all the dists that won't get updated
> will suddenly have whatever well-meaning emails may come in drop into a black hole.

Emails should be returned to sender with an appropriate error message, such as
the default un-deliverable, rather than just being ignored, so those attempting
to send them know it didn't work. -- Darren
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 08:06:30 +0100, Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> wrote:

> On 2021-01-19 4:27 p.m., Christian Walde wrote:
>> Only a miniscule part. The biggest issue is all the dists that won't get updated
>> will suddenly have whatever well-meaning emails may come in drop into a black hole.
>
> Emails should be returned to sender with an appropriate error message, such as
> the default un-deliverable, rather than just being ignored, so those attempting
> to send them know it didn't work. -- Darren

That is a necessity for the absolute worst case, but how to implement that is up in the air.

And in any case, we should wait for an update from Bryan as well.

--
With regards,
Christian Walde
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On 1/25/21 2:45 AM, Karen Etheridge wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 4:10 PM Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net
> <mailto:darren@darrenduncan.net>> wrote:
>
> Where projects are actively maintained, the authors would quickly
> setup
> alternate bug tracking mechanisms where they haven't already, and for
> non-maintained projects, new reports wouldn't be responded to
> anyway, but the
> read-only archive would ensure any past reports aren't lost.
>
>
> [...] To hear statements that the statistics simply aren't compelling
> enough is to deny my lived experience, and strikes me as incredibly
> lacking in empathy.


Considering I pushed back on the statistics, I imagine this might be a
response to me. Just in case it is, I want to affirm that I am not
doubting the toll it takes on you or other contributors. My initial
response to Paul was careful and left a lot of room for me to understand
better. This is also why I'm following every message on this thread and
raising it in PSC.


My comment on statistics referred directly to the cost/benefit analysis
of RT as a system for the purposes of funding its continued maintenance.
I did not intend to suggest that the burden on you or other maintenance
authors is minimal or non-existent.
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
I'm happy to move my source code; I hope the ticket-migrating tools aren't
too hard to use. This is way overdue.

Lincoln

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 5:44 PM Paul "LeoNerd" Evans <leonerd@leonerd.org.uk>
wrote:

> This isn't directly core's doing, nor problem, but I am attempting to
> raise awareness of the situation because it seems nobody is aware or
> talking about it.
>
> ****
>
> rt.cpan.org, the bugtracker used by nearly 80% of all CPAN modules
> [1], is going to be shut down on 1st March this year [2]; 41 days
> from when I write this email.
>
> ****
>
> I am rather concerned about this, as there doesn't appear to be any
> sort of co-ordinated bailout plan or migration of the *huge amount* of
> CPAN modules this is about to affect.
>
> I am furthermore concerned at the total lack of discussion or response
> that has so far been generated; aside from Karen Etheridge I haven't
> seen any noise of upset being generated at all. Nor am I aware of any
> sort of effort to handle what will become a huge outage of a major
> component of the CPAN ecosystem.
>
> I personally have 189 modules in need of migration - somehow. As yet
> I have no clue what I am going to do about it. Existing bugs need to be
> moved somewhere else (and I have no clue how I'm going to fix up URLs
> that currently point to those, in code comments, documentation, blog
> posts, ... anywhere else), and a new for users to report new bugs needs
> to exist. Of special note are the numerous "in progress" tickets I have
> across my distributions, containing ongoing discussions about design
> issues and the like. To say that I am "concerned" is an understatement;
> I am fairly close to panicing about this.
>
> I am quite sure I am but the smallest tip of the iceberg here. Every
> time I mention it on Freenode's #perl or irc.perl.org's #p5p there are
> always new folks who were totally unaware of this fact. This is going
> to hit lots of people in a very hard surprise.
>
> I am therefore interested to know if
>
> a) Perl5 Porters officially, and
>
> b) Individual CPAN authors who happen to subscribe to the
> perl5-porters mailing list
>
> have any sort of response to this; any kind of mass-migration plan or
> thoughts on continuing the service.
>
>
> To emphasise again: in 41 days time the bug tracker used by nearly 80%
> of all of CPAN is going to be shut down and become unavailable for
> either historic or newly-reported bugs. We *need* to find a solution in
> that time.
>
>
> 1: Add the "known to be RT" and "unknown" categories of
> https://cpan.rocks/; because metacpan.org defaults to RT in the
> latter case.
>
> 2: https://log.perl.org/2020/12/rtcpanorg-sunset.html
>
> --
> Paul "LeoNerd" Evans
>
> leonerd@leonerd.org.uk | https://metacpan.org/author/PEVANS
> http://www.leonerd.org.uk/ | https://www.tindie.com/stores/leonerd/
>


--
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Senior Principal Investigator, OICR
Professor, Department of Molecular Genetics, University of Toronto

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lincoln.stein@gmail.com

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Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:20:27 -0500
Lincoln Stein <lincoln.stein@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm happy to move my source code; I hope the ticket-migrating tools
> aren't too hard to use. This is way overdue.

Individuals authors have always[*] been able to elect to configure some
other bugtracker for each distribution. The main issue here is that 80%
have either not done so, or specifically elected to keep rt.cpan.org -
so those 80% of distributions are going to become unsupported.

If you wish to use something else for your own dists, you have had that
option for a long time now...

(*: Well, for many years at least.)

--
Paul "LeoNerd" Evans

leonerd@leonerd.org.uk | https://metacpan.org/author/PEVANS
http://www.leonerd.org.uk/ | https://www.tindie.com/stores/leonerd/
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:38:17 +0100, Sawyer X <xsawyerx@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/25/21 2:45 AM, Karen Etheridge wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 4:10 PM Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net
>> <mailto:darren@darrenduncan.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Where projects are actively maintained, the authors would quickly
>> setup
>> alternate bug tracking mechanisms where they haven't already, and for
>> non-maintained projects, new reports wouldn't be responded to
>> anyway, but the
>> read-only archive would ensure any past reports aren't lost.
>>
>>
>> [...] To hear statements that the statistics simply aren't compelling
>> enough is to deny my lived experience, and strikes me as incredibly
>> lacking in empathy.
>
>
> Considering I pushed back on the statistics, I imagine this might be a
> response to me. Just in case it is, I want to affirm that I am not
> doubting the toll it takes on you or other contributors. My initial
> response to Paul was careful and left a lot of room for me to understand
> better. This is also why I'm following every message on this thread and
> raising it in PSC.
>
>
> My comment on statistics referred directly to the cost/benefit analysis
> of RT as a system for the purposes of funding its continued maintenance.
> I did not intend to suggest that the burden on you or other maintenance
> authors is minimal or non-existent.

Dude, with all respect and love, you said earlier:

> This assumes on a major benefit to this expenditure. I personally doubt the benefit outweighs the cost.

In this situation you could've said something like:

"""
oh hm, i'm was not aware of how big the cost of ether migrating all her stuff would be if the time she volunteers was measured at a competitive market rate, and particularly not if that is multiplied for all yet-to-be-migrated dists, and how that just dwarfs the basic cost of hosting a vm.

i was wrong, there is a major benefit.

sorry.
"""

I personally wasn't aware of the scope on her end either until she mentioned it.

In fact, you still can, and doing so would make everyone feel a little happier. Wouldn't that on its own be worth it? :)

--
With regards,
Christian Walde
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On 2021-01-24 5:45 p.m., Karen Etheridge wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 4:10 PM Darren Duncan wrote:
> Where projects are actively maintained, the authors would quickly setup
> alternate bug tracking mechanisms where they haven't already, and for
> non-maintained projects, new reports wouldn't be responded to anyway, but the
> read-only archive would ensure any past reports aren't lost.
>
> This isn't true, as you are forgetting about the vast middle ground of
> distributions whose original authors have drifted away but have handed off
> permissions to other people who are standing by able to perform maintenance work
> as needed. I am in such a position for literally hundreds of these modules where
> I have not needed to do a release *yet*, and as such the last releaser is the
> original author, but I can do a release quickly when needed. For these
> distributions I rely on RT to receive the bug reports, and the sudden loss of RT
> creates a massive burden where I need to release *all* of them in a matter of a
> month in order to ensure that bug reports are not lost.

I feel that it should be possible in a reasonably short time to deal with this
problem in an automated way so that you and others don't have to do mass
re-releases.

For example, under the possibly false assumption that people typically go to
MetaCPAN when they want to read the documentation for a module, and that filing
bug reports is largely a manual process, ...

MetaCPAN could receive fairly soon a few updates to assist people who go there
in order to look up how to submit a bug report for a particular module.

There could be a new help page which is prominently linked to at the top of each
page in the site that says rt.cpan.org is no longer receiving bug reports and
indicates how one can go about filing bug reports now, various steps to look up
the information or appropriate course of action on a per-module basis.

The page for each module could have automatically generated text on it that
indicates who the current PAUSE-registered maintainers are and that they are who
to contact if you have a bug report to file, regardless of what the actual
module POD says, unless the POD indicates something other than rt.cpan.org.

So it should be possible with reasonably low effort to mitigate this problem
without you having to re-release any of the modules you maintain for just this
purpose.

-- Darren Duncan
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
Hi folks,

Sorry for the lack of email updates. ether started a channel on IRC, and a
number of people have been helping out. Specifically davel has been working on
uplifting the code and getting it containerized. Once that's done, it should be
relatively straightforward to simply run the thing.

That said, Jim Brandt noted https://github.com/tpf/rt.cpan.org/issues/1 there
may be some related issues as this codebase is over 7 years old.

So: I'd expect there to be some hiccups around actually operating it, and as
rjbs said in another thread, some conversations on having it hosted by
BestPractical are also happening.

We have a couple options and they are being actively pursued.

Cheers.
--
bdha
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 10:05:55 -0500
Bryan Horstmann-Allen <bryan@pobox.com> wrote:

> We have a couple options and they are being actively pursued.

Excellent news - thanks for taking the ball on this one :)

--
Paul "LeoNerd" Evans

leonerd@leonerd.org.uk | https://metacpan.org/author/PEVANS
http://www.leonerd.org.uk/ | https://www.tindie.com/stores/leonerd/
Re: FYI rt.cpan.org is going away [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 01 Feb 2021 16:05:55 +0100, Bryan Horstmann-Allen <bryan@pobox.com> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Sorry for the lack of email updates. ether started a channel on IRC, and a
> number of people have been helping out. Specifically davel has been working on
> uplifting the code and getting it containerized. Once that's done, it should be
> relatively straightforward to simply run the thing.
>
> That said, Jim Brandt noted https://github.com/tpf/rt.cpan.org/issues/1 there
> may be some related issues as this codebase is over 7 years old.
>
> So: I'd expect there to be some hiccups around actually operating it, and as
> rjbs said in another thread, some conversations on having it hosted by
> BestPractical are also happening.
>
> We have a couple options and they are being actively pursued.
>
> Cheers.

Thanks so much for your efforts on this, and especially thanks for tracking the work in a public repo. :)

--
With regards,
Christian Walde

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