Mailing List Archive

Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12
(Gosh, Neil, I dunno about this precedent of numbering the meetings. We're going to miss a number at some point and then we'll be sorry.)

Today, Neil and Sawyer and I had our second PSC meeting. We're still establishing short and long term agenda items, with some top agenda items including:
1. how do we encourage good interactions on p5p to take us forward in making decisions
2. what are the principles guiding these decisions (especially at the PSC level)
3. what is the process for going from "I have an idea for changing Perl" to "I merged it!"
Regarding the two items mentioned by Neil last time:

First was "how are PRs reviewed and merged?". We wrote up a basic explanation of how we plan to simplify this process, we think it's a good start, and I'll post a separate email about it soon.

The second was related to TPF grants. There's no real problem here, we only want to make sure that TPF grants that require approval from the project management (traditionally the Perl 5 Core Maint. grants) can be approved by any of the three of us. This is a small procedural matter that I'll chase down.

We'll keep p5p posted as we move along, and I hope we'll have some good first-order answers to #2 and #3 above, which are things that a lot of people are asking about.

--
rjbs
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
Hi *Ricardo*:

Please hold your meetings in public!

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 6:23 PM Ricardo Signes <rjbs@manxome.org> wrote:

> (Gosh, Neil, I dunno about this precedent of numbering the meetings.
> We're going to miss a number at some point and then we'll be sorry.)
>
> Today, Neil and Sawyer and I had our second PSC meeting. We're still
> establishing short and long term agenda items, with some top agenda items
> including:
>
> 1. how do we encourage good interactions on p5p to take us forward in
> making decisions
> 2. what are the principles guiding these decisions (especially at the
> PSC level)
> 3. what is the process for going from "I have an idea for changing
> Perl" to "I merged it!"
>
> Regarding the two items mentioned by Neil last time:
>
> First was "how are PRs reviewed and merged?". We wrote up a basic
> explanation of how we plan to simplify this process, we think it's a good
> start, and I'll post a separate email about it soon.
>
> The second was related to TPF grants. There's no real problem here, we
> only want to make sure that TPF grants that require approval from the
> project management (traditionally the Perl 5 Core Maint. grants) can be
> approved by any of the three of us. This is a small procedural matter that
> I'll chase down.
>
> We'll keep p5p posted as we move along, and I hope we'll have some good
> first-order answers to #2 and #3 above, which are things that a lot of
> people are asking about.
>
> --
> rjbs
>


--
Thanks,

Phil <https://metacpan.org/author/PRBRENAN>

Philip R Brenan <https://metacpan.org/author/PRBRENAN>
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:23:24 -0500
"Ricardo Signes" <rjbs@manxome.org> wrote:

> 3. what is the process for going from "I have an idea for changing
> Perl" to "I merged it!"

Thanks :) This one in particular is one I have a strongly vested
interest in seeing the outcome of.

To be clear - I don't have any strong opinions on *what* the process
should be, but I do really feel we need one. Once we have one I fully
intend to make a lot of use of it.

--
Paul "LeoNerd" Evans

leonerd@leonerd.org.uk | https://metacpan.org/author/PEVANS
http://www.leonerd.org.uk/ | https://www.tindie.com/stores/leonerd/
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021, at 1:36 PM, Philip R Brenan wrote:
> Hi *Ricardo*:
>
> Please hold your meetings in public!

No.

You'll get notes, which I expect will become better-kept and more detailed over time. You'll get a description of actions planned and an explanation of justification and intent, but there will not be a recording of our every word and gesture.

This is final.

--
rjbs
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
Several points are considered.

Change target

- Document
- Test code
- Source code

Document

- Does the documentation explain the feature correctly?
- Direct commit possible

Test code

- Is the test code testing the feature correctly?
- Direct commit possible

Source code

- Bug fix
- Code cleanup
- Performance improvement
- Memory usage improvement
- Feature addition
- Feature modification or deletion

Bug fix

- Have the bugs been fixed? Do you have test code?
- Do all current tests pass?
- Do that negative impact on performance or memory usage?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the Perl language level?
- Is backward compatibility kept at the public level of C language?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the private level of C, which is
already in use on CPAN?
- At what level we can commit directly

Code cleanup

- Do all current tests pass?
- Do that negative impact on performance or memory usage?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the Perl language level?
- Is backward compatibility kept at the public level of C language?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the private level of C, which is
already in use on CPAN?
- At what level we can commit directly

Performance improvement

- In what areas performance has improved
- Do all current tests pass?
- Do that negative impact on other performance or memory usage?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the Perl language level?
- Is backward compatibility kept at the public level of C language?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the private level of C, which is
already in use on CPAN?
- At what level we can commit directly

Memory usage improvement

- In what areas memory usage has improved
- Do all current tests pass?
- Do that negative impact on performance or other memory usage?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the Perl language level?
- Is backward compatibility kept at the public level of C language?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the private level of C, which is
already in use on CPAN?
- At what level we can commit directly

Feature addition

- Who wants that feature?
- What thing the feature actually improves
- Additional feature size
- Comparison of the benefits of added feature with the disadvantages of
increased complexity
- Do all current tests pass?
- Do that negative impact on performance or memory usage?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the Perl language level?
- Is backward compatibility kept at the public level of C language?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the private level of C, which is
already in use on CPAN?
- Branch required
- Public discussion required
- Vote

Feature modification or deletion

- Who is requesting that feature fix or deletion?
- What thing the feature actually improves
- feature modification size
- Comparison of the benefits of feature modifications with the
disadvantages of increased complexity
- Do all current tests pass?
- Do that negative impact on performance or memory usage?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the Perl language level?
- Is backward compatibility kept at the public level of C language?
- Is backwards compatibility kept at the private level of C, which is
already in use on CPAN?
- Branch required
- Public discussion required
- Vote

Public discussion

- P5P mailing list
- Github Issue
- Github Discussion
- Published the feature in Perl.com
- Published the feature in blog perl.org
- Minimum discussion period
- Getting a wide range of consensus
- Are there strong refusal users?

Voting

- Make sure that change meet Perl's goals before voting
- Vote based on conscience and good professional knowledge
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
On 2021/01/13 3:59, Ricardo Signes wrote:

> You'll get notes, which I expect will become better-kept and more detailed over time. You'll get a description of actions planned and an explanation of justification and intent, but there will not be a recording of our every word and gesture.

Is there any plan to put notes to more browsable place (like https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki)?
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 18:23, Ricardo Signes <rjbs@manxome.org> wrote:

> (Gosh, Neil, I dunno about this precedent of numbering the meetings.
> We're going to miss a number at some point and then we'll be sorry.)
>

Well, I mean, if you can't even get the date right :-)

Dave...
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
2020 was such a great year that no one wants it to end? :)

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 8:35 PM Dave Cross <dave@dave.org.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 18:23, Ricardo Signes <rjbs@manxome.org> wrote:
>
>> (Gosh, Neil, I dunno about this precedent of numbering the meetings.
>> We're going to miss a number at some point and then we'll be sorry.)
>>
>
> Well, I mean, if you can't even get the date right :-)
>
> Dave...
>
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
I vote for using Roman numerals to number the meetings - like the Super
Bowl does. Gives it gravitas...

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 6:33 PM Karen Etheridge <perl@froods.org> wrote:

> 2020 was such a great year that no one wants it to end? :)
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 8:35 PM Dave Cross <dave@dave.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 18:23, Ricardo Signes <rjbs@manxome.org> wrote:
>>
>>> (Gosh, Neil, I dunno about this precedent of numbering the meetings.
>>> We're going to miss a number at some point and then we'll be sorry.)
>>>
>>
>> Well, I mean, if you can't even get the date right :-)
>>
>> Dave...
>>
>

--
Matthew O. Persico
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021, at 8:52 AM, SHIRAKATA Kentaro wrote:
> On 2021/01/13 3:59, Ricardo Signes wrote:
>
> > You'll get notes, which I expect will become better-kept and more detailed over time. You'll get a description of actions planned and an explanation of justification and intent, but there will not be a recording of our every word and gesture.
>
> Is there any plan to put notes to more browsable place (like https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki)?

No *plans*, but I expect we'll get there. Right now we're focusing on getting all in sync, making sure we know that the three of us can move things forward with a common plan, and then I think administrative details will get more attention.

--
rjbs
Re: Perl Steering Council, meeting #002, 2020-01-12 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021, at 9:20 AM, Dave Cross wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 18:23, Ricardo Signes <rjbs@manxome.org> wrote:
>> __
>> (Gosh, Neil, I dunno about this precedent of numbering the meetings. We're going to miss a number at some point and then we'll be sorry.)
>
> Well, I mean, if you can't even get the date right :-)

I believe I am exactly the appropriate amount of embarrassed by that mistake now…

--
rjbs