Mailing List Archive

Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions.
Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.

This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
currently supported by Microsoft.

I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
they've only just been EOLed.

This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
Windows and make future additions simpler.

Thanks,
Chase
RE: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
If you have lots of energy - why not introduce some modern techniques into perl instead?
(I mean Webperl, but also the efforts could be spent on supporting of ML, AI libraries etc)

Deprecating threads, removing platform and compilers - those are news from perl.
Is it a road to modernization?


-----Original Message-----
From: Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2020 4:59 PM
To: Perl5 Porteros
Subject: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions.


[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.

This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being currently supported by Microsoft.

I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but they've only just been EOLed.

This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for Windows and make future additions simpler.

Thanks,
Chase
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean, but I'll try to
interpret it in the nicest way possible.

I'll interpret your first question loosely as: "Instead of worrying
about the old things like this, why not work on some newer things like
X?"

There have already been several occasions where adhering to the
standard of supporting Windows 2000 (which EOLed over 10 years ago)
have caused features and fixes from others to fail CI testing because
that version of the OS didn't behave in the same way as newer versions
do, or it didn't have APIs/features that the newer OSes do. Those
fixes and updates to Perl haven't happened due to this.

On your second question, "is removing things Perl's path to
modernization?" While I can't speak for everyone and will not try,
removing old things that hinder improvement has to happen for some
forms of modernization, yes. Am I the one to declare which things go
on the chopping block? Absolutely not. Not everyone agrees with my
viewpoint of what should stay or go and that's fine. I'm not at all
looking to start that conversation or argument here.

What I am proposing is the removal of the requirement that new
versions of Perl support old, end of lifed versions of Microsoft
Windows that have and will continue to hinder fixing parts of Perl or
adding new features. When you run those older -no longer supported in
any way- operating systems, you should not expect to run the latest
versions of software on them. You can't even get a modern web browser
on Win XP or 2k that support TLSv1.2, why would you expect the latest
version of Perl to install on them?

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 11:06 AM Konovalov, Vadim
<Vadim.Konovalov@dell.com> wrote:
>
> If you have lots of energy - why not introduce some modern techniques into perl instead?
> (I mean Webperl, but also the efforts could be spent on supporting of ML, AI libraries etc)
>
> Deprecating threads, removing platform and compilers - those are news from perl.
> Is it a road to modernization?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2020 4:59 PM
> To: Perl5 Porteros
> Subject: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions.
>
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>
> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>
> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being currently supported by Microsoft.
>
> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but they've only just been EOLed.
>
> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for Windows and make future additions simpler.
>
> Thanks,
> Chase
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 08 Oct 2020 15:59:03 +0200, Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:

> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>
> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
> currently supported by Microsoft.
>
> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
> they've only just been EOLed.
>
> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
> Windows and make future additions simpler.

Have those specific things caused great amount of work (not just minor inconveniences) in the past? Would be nice to see some references to tickets and patches.

Also, do you consider this matter to be mainly formal for now with no practical effects on the code or are there any specific actions you would envision to be taken after the declaration of no support?

Also, to address an ancillary question from the other email:

> You can't even get a modern web browser on Win XP or 2k

Most windows machines which execute Perl would be used in some kind of server capacity and specifically Windows 2000 was one of the first Windows server OSes, so i'd actually be more surprised to see those machines run a web browser than Perl.

--
With regards,
Christian Walde
RE: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
Thank you for a detailed reply, I now understood that this is about number of CI configurations.
I quite agree with your argumentation.

A suggestion.
I've heard that in Germain there is a regulation: if you need to cut a tree - you must to plant another tree in return.
Borland compiler have dropped - LLVM should be planted - it is modern and mainstream.

That would be a modernization

-----Original Message-----
From: Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2020 8:29 PM
To: Konovalov, Vadim
Cc: Perl5 Porteros
Subject: Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions.


[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean, but I'll try to interpret it in the nicest way possible.

I'll interpret your first question loosely as: "Instead of worrying about the old things like this, why not work on some newer things like X?"

There have already been several occasions where adhering to the standard of supporting Windows 2000 (which EOLed over 10 years ago) have caused features and fixes from others to fail CI testing because that version of the OS didn't behave in the same way as newer versions do, or it didn't have APIs/features that the newer OSes do. Those fixes and updates to Perl haven't happened due to this.

On your second question, "is removing things Perl's path to modernization?" While I can't speak for everyone and will not try, removing old things that hinder improvement has to happen for some forms of modernization, yes. Am I the one to declare which things go on the chopping block? Absolutely not. Not everyone agrees with my viewpoint of what should stay or go and that's fine. I'm not at all looking to start that conversation or argument here.

What I am proposing is the removal of the requirement that new versions of Perl support old, end of lifed versions of Microsoft Windows that have and will continue to hinder fixing parts of Perl or adding new features. When you run those older -no longer supported in any way- operating systems, you should not expect to run the latest versions of software on them. You can't even get a modern web browser on Win XP or 2k that support TLSv1.2, why would you expect the latest version of Perl to install on them?

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 11:06 AM Konovalov, Vadim <Vadim.Konovalov@dell.com> wrote:
>
> If you have lots of energy - why not introduce some modern techniques into perl instead?
> (I mean Webperl, but also the efforts could be spent on supporting of
> ML, AI libraries etc)
>
> Deprecating threads, removing platform and compilers - those are news from perl.
> Is it a road to modernization?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2020 4:59 PM
> To: Perl5 Porteros
> Subject: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions.
>
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>
> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>
> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being currently supported by Microsoft.
>
> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but they've only just been EOLed.
>
> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for Windows and make future additions simpler.
>
> Thanks,
> Chase
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:22:42 +0200, Christian Walde <walde.christian@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Oct 2020 15:59:03 +0200, Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
>> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
>> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
>> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
>> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
>> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
>> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
>> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>>
>> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
>> currently supported by Microsoft.
>>
>> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
>> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
>> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
>> they've only just been EOLed.
>>
>> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
>> Windows and make future additions simpler.
>
> Have those specific things caused great amount of work (not just minor inconveniences) in the past? Would be nice to see some references to tickets and patches.
>
> Also, do you consider this matter to be mainly formal for now with no practical effects on the code or are there any specific actions you would envision to be taken after the declaration of no support?
>
> Also, to address an ancillary question from the other email:
>
>> You can't even get a modern web browser on Win XP or 2k
>
> Most windows machines which execute Perl would be used in some kind of server capacity and specifically Windows 2000 was one of the first Windows server OSes, so i'd actually be more surprised to see those machines run a web browser than Perl.

I was told this wasn't entirely clear:

Without rigorous discussion and documentation of the issues mentioned above i consider moving forward on these deprecations a mistake.

--
With regards,
Christian Walde
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:59:03 -0400
Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:

> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>
> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
> currently supported by Microsoft.
>
> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
> they've only just been EOLed.
>
> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
> Windows and make future additions simpler.
>
> Thanks,
> Chase

+1 from me.

Also, I wanted to point out that removing support for a platform does
*not* mean that we are taking away Perl from its users. If we drop
support for XP today, XP users will still be able use perl 5.32 which
will be considered "modern" for *at least* a decade.
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:22:42 +0200
"Christian Walde" <walde.christian@gmail.com> wrote:

> Have those specific things caused great amount of work (not just minor inconveniences) in the past? Would be nice to see some references to tickets and patches.

Two years ago I had been working on win32 implementations of readlink(),
symlink(), lstat() and reworked stat() (which currently is *very*
buggy[1]). I didn't finish it because they depended on APIs introduced
in Vista while we still have to support Windows 2000 and XP.

I knew that it would be very hard to convince p5p to drop support for it,
so I didn't bother.

Note that conditional compilation isn't an option on Windows because
everyone is using prebuilt binaries. Of course, conditional loading of
functions at runtime is sometimes possible, but I consider it disg^Wvery
ugly. IMO such workarounds aren't acceptable if they're being
implemented solely to support a dead OS.

After Chase mailed the list with his proposal, I restarted my work on
the above (from scratch because I lost my old patches) to make a point
by showing an example of a tangible benefit to dropping support for XP.

However, by a weird conincidence, Tony Cook started working on the very
same thing, so I gave him my code and ceased further work. AFAIK, in his
patches he decided to go the "conditionally load functions at runtime"
route, which will *not* break XP but it *will* complicate the code and
obviously requires him to do more work.

[1] - See github #4145, #6080, #7410, #8502, #9025, #12431, #14687
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On 10/14/20 2:22 PM, Tomasz Konojacki wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:59:03 -0400
> Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
>> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
>> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
>> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
>> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
>> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
>> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
>> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>>
>> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
>> currently supported by Microsoft.
>>
>> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
>> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
>> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
>> they've only just been EOLed.
>>
>> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
>> Windows and make future additions simpler.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chase
>
> +1 from me.
>
> Also, I wanted to point out that removing support for a platform does
> *not* mean that we are taking away Perl from its users. If we drop
> support for XP today, XP users will still be able use perl 5.32 which
> will be considered "modern" for *at least* a decade.
>

The vendor that sold the OS for $money in the first place is no longer
furnishing any updates, even security ones. I can't see any reasonable
expectation that you should be able to get new perl versions for this
obsolete OS for free. It's that simple.

Our volunteer resources are already stretched too thin.
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, at 13:23, Tomasz Konojacki wrote:
> Two years ago I had been working on win32 implementations of readlink(),
> symlink(), lstat() and reworked stat() (which currently is *very*
> buggy[1]). I didn't finish it because they depended on APIs introduced
> in Vista while we still have to support Windows 2000 and XP.

This is actually the concern that I have with supporting those old Windows versions. Microsoft does pretty well to release new APIs with each successive release of their operating systems. In the best case, those new APIs allow application developers to drop code they wrote to polyfill and work around deficiencies in the old APIs.

In the worst case, continuing to support too-old versions of your respective platforms means that functionality that you want to implement and support is functionality that, minimally for all of your supported versions of a particular platform, you _can't_ implement and support, either because the APIs don't exist in that version of the SDK (and, hence, don't resolve to symbols suitable for linking) or the behavior was changed (and, as usual, not documented) between one version and the next.

All things being equal, and time being a limitless and zero-cost commodity, I'd otherwise not see a problem with keeping that stuff around. Unfortunately, reality prevails, and each EOL'd platform version incurs a non-trivial maintenance and support cost.

> patches he decided to go the "conditionally load functions at runtime"
> route, which will *not* break XP but it *will* complicate the code and
> obviously requires him to do more work.

The more work that he needs to do to support these older Windows version, the less time he has to dedicate to other, more attractive fixes and enhancements. This likewise holds true for the volunteers who continue to develop and support Perl. -n
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 23:09:16 +0200, Karl Williamson <public@khwilliamson.com> wrote:

> On 10/14/20 2:22 PM, Tomasz Konojacki wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:59:03 -0400
>> Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
>>> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
>>> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
>>> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
>>> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
>>> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
>>> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
>>> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>>>
>>> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
>>> currently supported by Microsoft.
>>>
>>> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
>>> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
>>> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
>>> they've only just been EOLed.
>>>
>>> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
>>> Windows and make future additions simpler.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chase
>>
>> +1 from me.
>>
>> Also, I wanted to point out that removing support for a platform does
>> *not* mean that we are taking away Perl from its users. If we drop
>> support for XP today, XP users will still be able use perl 5.32 which
>> will be considered "modern" for *at least* a decade.
>
> The vendor that sold the OS for $money in the first place is no longer
> furnishing any updates, even security ones. I can't see any reasonable
> expectation that you should be able to get new perl versions for this
> obsolete OS for free. It's that simple.
>
> Our volunteer resources are already stretched too thin.

As i've said on IRC:

xenu's email describing actual issues and actual wins is convincing (tho i still have to read the tickets). It is convincing to me because it is based on actual problems and actual solutions.

The position above has nothing to do with either of those, and is purely moralistic. And if we're going to make moralistic prescriptions that are untethered to actual outcomes, then i request only one thing:

That the exact identical moral standard be applied to ALL OSes in the same way by way of policy.

--
With regards,
Christian Walde
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:09, Karl Williamson <public@khwilliamson.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/14/20 2:22 PM, Tomasz Konojacki wrote:
> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:59:03 -0400
> > Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
> >> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
> >> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
> >> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
> >> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
> >> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
> >> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
> >> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
> >>
> >> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
> >> currently supported by Microsoft.
> >>
> >> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
> >> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
> >> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
> >> they've only just been EOLed.
> >>
> >> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
> >> Windows and make future additions simpler.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Chase
> >
> > +1 from me.
> >
> > Also, I wanted to point out that removing support for a platform does
> > *not* mean that we are taking away Perl from its users. If we drop
> > support for XP today, XP users will still be able use perl 5.32 which
> > will be considered "modern" for *at least* a decade.
> >
>
> The vendor that sold the OS for $money in the first place is no longer
> furnishing any updates, even security ones. I can't see any reasonable
> expectation that you should be able to get new perl versions for this
> obsolete OS for free. It's that simple.
>
> Our volunteer resources are already stretched too thin.

+1 from me too, with the caveat that whilst as a user of perl I
wouldn't necessarily expect to get new versions on old OSes, it is a
reality that sometimes developers are still using old OSes so dropping
support for them would make our volunteer resources even thinner until
such developers are able to upgrade.

I'm currently dividing my time between Windows 7 and Windows 10. I
know I should have booted out the Windows 7 machine by now, but such
is life... So I'm fine with the plan to drop Windows Vista and
earlier, and I appreciate that the plan doesn't include dropping
recently EOLed platforms like Windows 7 :-)
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
Hi,

I'm a newbie and I'm here to learn.

I expect to not be disrespectful to anyone but there are some things that I
sincerely don't understand:

* Why do we spend so much effort in putting a new version of Perl on a dead
OS like win2k since Microsoft itself doesn't spend any effort in putting
new software in the same OS?

* If a ten years dead system still can use perl 5.32, objectively speaking
what harm could do if we drop support in 5.34 (or seven).

* Why is it so important to install and use the topmost new version of Perl
on win2k?

* What is so important in Perl 5.34 that must be available on win2k?

Sincerely I'm not advocating for any option I just want to understand.

[]'s





On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 4:25 AM Steve Hay via perl5-porters <
perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:09, Karl Williamson <public@khwilliamson.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On 10/14/20 2:22 PM, Tomasz Konojacki wrote:
> > > On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:59:03 -0400
> > > Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
> > >> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
> > >> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
> > >> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
> > >> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
> > >> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
> > >> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
> > >> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
> > >>
> > >> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
> > >> currently supported by Microsoft.
> > >>
> > >> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
> > >> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
> > >> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
> > >> they've only just been EOLed.
> > >>
> > >> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
> > >> Windows and make future additions simpler.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Chase
> > >
> > > +1 from me.
> > >
> > > Also, I wanted to point out that removing support for a platform does
> > > *not* mean that we are taking away Perl from its users. If we drop
> > > support for XP today, XP users will still be able use perl 5.32 which
> > > will be considered "modern" for *at least* a decade.
> > >
> >
> > The vendor that sold the OS for $money in the first place is no longer
> > furnishing any updates, even security ones. I can't see any reasonable
> > expectation that you should be able to get new perl versions for this
> > obsolete OS for free. It's that simple.
> >
> > Our volunteer resources are already stretched too thin.
>
> +1 from me too, with the caveat that whilst as a user of perl I
> wouldn't necessarily expect to get new versions on old OSes, it is a
> reality that sometimes developers are still using old OSes so dropping
> support for them would make our volunteer resources even thinner until
> such developers are able to upgrade.
>
> I'm currently dividing my time between Windows 7 and Windows 10. I
> know I should have booted out the Windows 7 machine by now, but such
> is life... So I'm fine with the plan to drop Windows Vista and
> earlier, and I appreciate that the plan doesn't include dropping
> recently EOLed platforms like Windows 7 :-)
>
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:09:54 +0200, Blabos de Blebe <blabos@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm a newbie and I'm here to learn.
>
> I expect to not be disrespectful to anyone but there are some things that I sincerely don't understand:
>
> * Why do we spend so much effort in putting a new version of Perl on a dead OS like win2k since Microsoft itself >doesn't spend any effort in putting new software in the same OS?
>
> * If a ten years dead system still can use perl 5.32, objectively speaking what harm could do if we drop support in >5.34 (or seven).
>
> * Why is it so important to install and use the topmost new version of Perl on win2k?
>
> * What is so important in Perl 5.34 that must be available on win2k?
>
> Sincerely I'm not advocating for any option I just want to understand.

In general, the benefit of new Perl versions aren't only new features or performance concerns, but also bugfixes and security fixes.

And in short, the answers to all those questions apply for those roughly for the same reasons that AmigaOS (and i say this as a fan of AmigaOS and a user of windows) and other things on this list are supported: https://perldoc.perl.org/perlport#Supported-Platforms

As far as i can tell, so far, the general rule seems to have been that whatever gets patches is supported, and age or availability or vendor support or indeed even the very existence of a vendor (Amiga doesn't practically have one) have no bearing on what perl chooses to support, and no clear policies are put down.

As such, dropping platforms has seemingly been down to whether it enabled doing specific things with specific benefits.
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
Thank you Christian,

I really appreciate your answer and I'm understanding a bit more now.

Speaking from the biased view of a person that doesn't use these systems
nor is putting real work in Perl core seems to me that is a lot of effort
to put new Perl versions on dated systems that few people cares about
instead of putting the same effort in exciting (for me) things like AI, ML
and so on.

I'm just wondering if keeping supporting too old systems in the Perl core
is a good thing or if we should be doing that in a fork instead.

I feel that we put an anchor too long in the past that is making it
difficult to move forward.

It is not an argument, just a complaint because I feel sad when other
people are not doing things that I want but that I won't do by myself and
of course I'm not here to say what people must do.

[]'s

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:01 AM Christian Walde <walde.christian@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:09:54 +0200, Blabos de Blebe <blabos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm a newbie and I'm here to learn.
>
> I expect to not be disrespectful to anyone but there are some things that
> I sincerely don't understand:
>
> * Why do we spend so much effort in putting a new version of Perl on a
> dead OS like win2k since Microsoft itself doesn't spend any effort in
> putting new software in the same OS?
>
> * If a ten years dead system still can use perl 5.32, objectively speaking
> what harm could do if we drop support in 5.34 (or seven).
>
> * Why is it so important to install and use the topmost new version of
> Perl on win2k?
>
> * What is so important in Perl 5.34 that must be available on win2k?
>
> Sincerely I'm not advocating for any option I just want to understand.
>
>
> In general, the benefit of new Perl versions aren't only new features or
> performance concerns, but also bugfixes and security fixes.
>
> And in short, the answers to all those questions apply for those roughly
> for the same reasons that AmigaOS (and i say this as a fan of AmigaOS and a
> user of windows) and other things on this list are supported:
> https://perldoc.perl.org/perlport#Supported-Platforms
>
> As far as i can tell, so far, the general rule seems to have been that
> whatever gets patches is supported, and age or availability or vendor
> support or indeed even the very existence of a vendor (Amiga doesn't
> practically have one) have no bearing on what perl chooses to support, and
> no clear policies are put down.
>
> As such, dropping platforms has seemingly been down to whether it enabled
> doing specific things with specific benefits.
>
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
Very valid questions to ask, and considerations to make.

As it turns out, a slightly more indepth review of the matter has led to more questions.

You'll find reading material, including long historical issue conversations, in this ticket and the tickets linked in it: https://github.com/Perl/perl5/issues/18243 :)

Also, regarding "few people", consider that 1% of 100 million is still 1 million, so everything is relative. (Note, just food for thought, not a rejection of deprecation.)

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:37:24 +0200, Blabos de Blebe <blabos@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you Christian,
>
> I really appreciate your answer and I'm understanding a bit more now.
>
> Speaking from the biased view of a person that doesn't use these systems nor is putting real work in Perl core >seems to me that is a lot of effort to put new Perl versions on dated systems that few people cares about instead >of putting the same effort in exciting (for me) things like AI, ML and so on.
>
> I'm just wondering if keeping supporting too old systems in the Perl core is a good thing or if we should be doing >that in a fork instead.
>
> I feel that we put an anchor too long in the past that is making it difficult to move forward.
>
> It is not an argument, just a complaint because I feel sad when other people are not doing things that I want but >that I won't do by myself and of course I'm not here to say what people must do.
>
> []'s
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:01 AM Christian Walde <walde.christian@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:09:54 +0200, Blabos de Blebe <blabos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm a newbie and I'm here to learn.
>>>
>>> I expect to not be disrespectful to anyone but there are some things that I sincerely don't understand:
>>>
>>> * Why do we spend so much effort in putting a new version of Perl on a dead OS like win2k since Microsoft >>>itself doesn't spend any effort in putting new software in the same OS?
>>>
>>> * If a ten years dead system still can use perl 5.32, objectively speaking what harm could do if we drop >>>support in 5.34 (or seven).
>>>
>>> * Why is it so important to install and use the topmost new version of Perl on win2k?
>>>
>>> * What is so important in Perl 5.34 that must be available on win2k?
>>>
>>> Sincerely I'm not advocating for any option I just want to understand.
>>
>> In general, the benefit of new Perl versions aren't only new features or performance concerns, but also >>bugfixes and security fixes.
>>
>> And in short, the answers to all those questions apply for those roughly for the same reasons that AmigaOS >>(and i say this as a fan of AmigaOS and a user of windows) and other things on this list are supported: https://>>perldoc.perl.org/perlport#Supported-Platforms
>>
>> As far as i can tell, so far, the general rule seems to have been that whatever gets patches is supported, and >>age or availability or vendor support or indeed even the very existence of a vendor (Amiga doesn't practically >>have one) have no bearing on what perl chooses to support, and no clear policies are put down.
>>
>> As such, dropping platforms has seemingly been down to whether it enabled doing specific things with specific >>benefits.
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 10:00 AM Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:

> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>
> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
> currently supported by Microsoft.
>
> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
> they've only just been EOLed.
>
> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
> Windows and make future additions simpler.
>

FYI I opened https://github.com/Perl/perl5/issues/18521 to collect
discussion on a slightly simpler proposal (I believe Vista-era platforms
are significantly simpler to support but could certainly be amended to
include them or do that as another step if warranted).

-Dan
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
I write comment.

https://github.com/Perl/perl5/issues/18521

2021?2?2?(?) 9:10 Dan Book <grinnz@gmail.com>:

> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 10:00 AM Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
>> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
>> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
>> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
>> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
>> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
>> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
>> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>>
>> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
>> currently supported by Microsoft.
>>
>> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
>> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
>> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
>> they've only just been EOLed.
>>
>> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
>> Windows and make future additions simpler.
>>
>
> FYI I opened https://github.com/Perl/perl5/issues/18521 to collect
> discussion on a slightly simpler proposal (I believe Vista-era platforms
> are significantly simpler to support but could certainly be amended to
> include them or do that as another step if warranted).
>
> -Dan
>
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 02 Feb 2021 01:09:54 +0100, Dan Book <grinnz@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 10:00 AM Chase Whitener <cwhitener@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Windows 2000 EOLed in July of 2010.
>> Windows Home Server EOLed in January 2013.
>> Windows XP EOLed in April of 2014.
>> Windows Server 2003 EOLed in July of 2015.
>> Windows Home Server 2011 EOLed in April of 2016.
>> Windows Vista EOLed in April of 2017.
>> Windows Server 2008 (and R2) EOLed in January of 2020.
>> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>>
>> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows 10 still being
>> currently supported by Microsoft.
>>
>> I'd like to propose that we officially and formally drop any and all
>> support for Windows Vista and older. Granted, this would leave Windows
>> Server 2008 and Windows 7 supported even though they're EOLed, but
>> they've only just been EOLed.
>>
>> This would significantly reduce complexity necessary for patches for
>> Windows and make future additions simpler.
>
> FYI I opened https://github.com/Perl/perl5/issues/18521 to collect discussion on a slightly simpler proposal (I >believe Vista-era platforms are significantly simpler to support but could certainly be amended to include them or >do that as another step if warranted).
>
> -Dan



We had a discussion about this before.

Before you can "drop support" for something, we must first actually define what "support" means and define it, as well as policies and guidelines for dropping support, and document them.

https://github.com/Perl/perl5/issues/18243

Right now the state of all of the above is, simply, complete chaos and undefinedness.



--
With regards,
Christian Walde
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, at 9:18 PM, Christian Walde wrote:
> Before you can "drop support" for something, we must first actually define what "support" means and define it, as well as policies and guidelines for dropping support, and document them.
>
> https://github.com/Perl/perl5/issues/18243

True! I read that issue, had a little bit of commentary, talked to Neil and Sawyer, and I think we should add some language to this, roughly saying:
* some configurations have first-class support: we test them before release and if we see they stopped passing tests, we won't make a stable release (at least without seriously extenuating circumstances)
* some configurations have second-class support: we believe they work, and if we get a report of new breakage, we'll look at how it can be fixed, but we don't guarantee anything
* some configurations are on the chopping block because we believe they present an ongoing burden but aren't in use or likely to come into use
The great majority of configurations are (I think) in the second class. There is surely some variability in the amount of work or chance of success for some configurations in that category. In some cases, it will be easy or compelling: bisection will make clear what caused the problem, it will be recent and easy to test a fix. In others, it will be nightmarish: the configuration is not known to have ever worked, the reasons for failure are unclear, nobody but the complainant has access to a test machine, &c. Still, if we're not planning to remove the code to allow the configuration, it's in that category.

Then the question is how we classify builds, and how you move between categories.

To become a configuration with first-class support, first there must be an active smoker on that platform. Then, there needs to be general agreement among the committers that the configuration is important enough to block stable releases when known broken. My guess: we put a list of these somewhere (perlport?) and pull requests to amend the list are reviewed and applied based on what seems realistic.

The more complex question is when to put something on the chopping block. I think the answer has to be "when it's getting in the way and bearing no weight." For example, Windows Vista came up recently. Is anyone running Vista plus Perl 5.32? Is maintaining compatibility with Vista making the Windows code for Win10 harder to maintain? If so, we should explain this and prepare to remove support for Vista.

What does that mean? I think this may need to be resolved on a case by case basis. For example, last year we eliminated supporting code for Symbian, because we felt certain it could not have built for years. On the other hand, maybe perl on Vista is being built here and there. Or maybe the question will not be about no longer building, but no longer running properly. I think that we'll want to have two basic go-to policies here:
* this thing has not worked in ages, nobody complained, and we are just going to remove the illusion that it might work
* this thing worked, but we think it is no longer seeing any use, so we will issue a big complaint when building for it and give it one full release cycle for anybody to show up with a great reason why it should be spared
I am happy to write this up in the pod. Thoughts?

--
rjbs
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On 2/12/21 8:18 PM, Ricardo Signes wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, at 9:18 PM, Christian Walde wrote:
>> Before you can "drop support" for something, we must first actually
>> define what "support" means and define it, as well as policies and
>> guidelines for dropping support, and document them.
>>
>> https://github.com/Perl/perl5/issues/18243
>
> True!  I read that issue, had a little bit of commentary, talked to Neil
> and Sawyer, and I think we should add some language to this, roughly saying:
>
> * some configurations have first-class support: we test them before
> release and if we see they stopped passing tests, we won't make a
> stable release (at least without seriously extenuating circumstances)
> * some configurations have second-class support: we believe they work,
> and if we get a report of new breakage, we'll look at how it can be
> fixed, but we don't guarantee anything
> * some configurations are on the chopping block because we believe
> they present an ongoing burden but aren't in use or likely to come
> into use
>
> The great majority of configurations are (I think) in the second class.
> There is surely some variability in the amount of work or chance of
> success for some configurations in that category.  In some cases, it
> will be easy or compelling: bisection will make clear what caused the
> problem, it will be recent and easy to test a fix.  In others, it will
> be nightmarish: the configuration is not known to have ever worked, the
> reasons for failure are unclear, nobody but the complainant has access
> to a test machine, &c.  Still, if we're not planning to remove the code
> to allow the configuration, it's in that category.
>
> Then the question is how we classify builds, and how you move between
> categories.
>
> To become a configuration with first-class support, first there must be
> an active smoker on that platform.  Then, there needs to be general
> agreement among the committers that the configuration is important
> enough to block stable releases when known broken.  My guess:  we put a
> list of these somewhere (perlport?) and pull requests to amend the list
> are reviewed and applied based on what seems realistic.
>
> The more complex question is when to put something on the chopping
> block.  I think the answer has to be "when it's getting in the way and
> bearing no weight."  For example, Windows Vista came up recently.  Is
> anyone running Vista plus Perl 5.32?  Is maintaining compatibility with
> Vista making the Windows code for Win10 harder to maintain?  If so, we
> should explain this and prepare to remove support for Vista.
>
> What does that mean?  I think this may need to be resolved on a case by
> case basis.  For example, last year we eliminated supporting code for
> Symbian, because we felt certain it could not have built for years.  On
> the other hand, maybe perl on Vista is being built here and there.  Or
> maybe the question will not be about no longer building, but no longer
> running properly.  I think that we'll want to have two basic go-to
> policies here:
>
> * this thing has not worked in ages, nobody complained, and we are
> just going to remove the illusion that it might work
> * this thing worked, but we think it is no longer seeing any use, so
> we will issue a big complaint when building for it and give it one
> full release cycle for anybody to show up with a great reason why it
> should be spared
>
> I am happy to write this up in the pod.  Thoughts?
>
> --

Why would we want to support a platform that the original manufacturer
no longer does?

In particular, it seems to me that the discontinuance of security
updates would be a line in the sand that would lead us to stop
supporting the platform.
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 04:18:47 +0100, Ricardo Signes <perl.p5p@rjbs.manxome.org> wrote:

> l release cycle for anybody to show up with a great reason why it should be spared
> I am happy to write this up in the pod. Thoughts?

Short version for now:

I'm glad to see this taken seriously. I'll read more in depth tomorrow, but i also trust you to do right on this.

As for this, i 100% agree:

> The more complex question is when to put something on the chopping block. I think the answer has to be "when it's getting in the way and bearing no weight."

The reason why i personally agree is:

Making sure that "cutting support" is not done frivolously is important, as this very episode has demonstrated that some people are happy to pull out the chainsaw and start cutting functional bits, just because it's something they enjoy doing, not because it actually helps anthing.

This desire is also heightened demonstrably (by way of observing which platforms do not trigger such eagerness) when it comes to cutting windows because, while some developers are blocked from improving functions for newer windows versions by support for older windows versions with smaller apis, many also simply have a wholly subjective hate for it and are more than happy to have a justification for acting on it.

This can also be observed by calls for cutting something out because of some arbitrary change in vendor behavior on it, when other platforms are cheerfully kept on despite the vendor having imploded decades ago.

Choices here must be made based on demonstrable good consequences, not because they feel right.

--
With regards,
Christian Walde
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 04:27:00 +0100, Karl Williamson <public@khwilliamson.com> wrote:

> Why would we want to support a platform that the original manufacturer
> no longer does?
>
> In particular, it seems to me that the discontinuance of security
> updates would be a line in the sand that would lead us to stop
> supporting the platform.

Are you advocating for instituting a rule that all platforms that are not actively receiving security updates at this time be deprecated starting next release cycle?

Would you make a list of all such platforms?

--
With regards,
Christian Walde
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 10:27 PM, Karl Williamson wrote:
> Why would we want to support a platform that the original manufacturer
> no longer does?
>
> In particular, it seems to me that the discontinuance of security
> updates would be a line in the sand that would lead us to stop
> supporting the platform.

CASE A: If a million people are still writing new Perl code on BlubOS, it's probably worth making at least some effort to keep it building. If they're running smoke tests and contributing time to fix bugs, and if this isn't causing problems for anything else, I think we should do that.

CASE B: If there appears to be a single user writing code in Perl on BlubOS, and they can't write C and the support for BlubOS is making it hard to reason about the code base because it's ifdef-rich, we should probably immediately declare we're going to remove the code that makes BlubOS build at all.

The discontinuance of security updates is going to be a force of its own driving users off of the system, meaning we're much more likely to find them in Case B than Case A.

(Of course there are middle grounds, like the apparent single user of a long-dead platform who is willing to smoke test and provide patches, which still won't be enough to make it worth keeping the build working if it gets in the way of progress.)

--
rjbs
Re: Windows Support - Drop EOLed Versions. [ In reply to ]
On 2020/10/08 06:59, Chase Whitener wrote:
> Windows 7 EOLed in January of 2020.
>
> This leaves Windows 8, Windows server 2012, and Windows
> 10 still being currently supported by Microsoft.
>
---
BTW...

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-client/windows-7-eos-faq/windows-7-extended-security-updates-faq

I think Win7 has 2 more years of ESU (Extended Security Updates).

Also, does anyone remember how long XP was (is?) used in large
military contracts?:

In 2014, when Microsoft officially ended support for the aging
operating system, Windows XP still accounted for 30 percent of
operating systems worldwide. At the time, officials estimated
that 3 percent of the Pentagon’s several million computers were
still running Windows XP.

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/why-the-military-cant-quit-windows-xp.html


In 2016, they paid 9.1 million for continued XP support.
The entire contract could be worth up to $30.8 million and
extend into 2017.

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2939435/us-navy-paid-millions-to-stay-on-windows-xp.html


Also there is mixed news about the HMS Queen Elizabeth also running
XP, and Cygwin didn't drop it until ~ 2016.

Since Win10 came out, MS has been using strong-arm tactics to move
people to their advertising supported OS, but some old OS's
seem to stick around longer than MS would like.

Just some more data points to think about when deciding to drop some OS.

That said, why bother limiting language development based on
compatibility if you drop support for anything before XXX date?

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