Barry,
Thanks for the link. I had to laugh at this: 'you are tired of arguing with your network architecture team (“we are here to transport packets” vs “the Internet firewall” ;-)'. 20 years later, that still rings awfully true for me.
This diagram accurately displays how I've built a dirtyVRF that can use either FBF or, these days, Flowspec to vrf redirection. For example I have 5 ASBR and the inspection POC is only attached to a single POP. FBF indeed works great and scales “good enough” if well designed.
-Michael
From: Barry Raveendran Greene <bgreene@senki.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2024 11:30 AM
To: Michael Hare <michael.hare@wisc.edu>
Cc: juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net
Subject: Re: (No subject)
Have you reviewed the MPLS Shunt work from the mid-2000s? David Smith figured this out with AT&T.
[.note: attachment removed by michael.hare, my outlook helpful tried to inline it. See Barry’s original message]
On Apr 2, 2024, at 10:25, Michael Hare via juniper-nsp <juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net<mailto:juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net>> wrote:
?Hi there,
We're a US research and education ISP and we've been tasked for coming up with an architecture to allow on premise DDoS scrubbing with an appliance. As a first pass I've created an cleanL3VPN routing-instance to function as a clean VRF that uses rib-groups to mirror the relevant parts of inet.0. It is in production and is working great for customer learned BGP routes. It falls apart when I try to protect a directly attached destination that has a mac address in inet.0. I think I understand why and the purpose of this message is to see if anyone has been in a similar situation and has thoughts/advice/warnings about alternative designs.
To explain what I see, I noticed that mac address based nexthops don't seem to be copied from inet.0 into cleanL3VPN.inet.0. I assume this means that mac-address based forwarding must be referencing inet.0 [see far below]. This obviously creates a loop once the best path in inet.0 becomes a BGP /32. For example when I'm announcing a /32 for 1.2.3.4 out of a locally attached 1.2.3.0/26, traceroute implies the packet enters inet.0, is sent to 5.6.7.8 as the nexthop correctly, arrives in cleanL3VPN which decides to forward to 5.6.7.8 in a loop, even though the BGP /32 isn't part of cleanL3VPN [see below], cleanL3VPN Is dependent on inet.0 for resolution. Even if I could copy inet.0 mac addresses into cleanL3VPN, eventually the mac address would age out of inet.0 because the /32 would no longer be directly connected. If I want to be able to protect locally attached destinations so I think my design is unworkable, I think my solutions are
= use flowspec redirection to dirty VRF, keep inet.0 as clean and use flowspec interface filter-group appropriately on backbone interfaces [routing-options flow interface-group exclude, which I already have deployed correctly]. This seems easy but is less performant.
= put my customers into a customerVRF and deal with route leaking between global and customerVRF. This is a well-known tactic but more complicated to approach and disruptive to deploy as I have to airlift basically all the customers to into a VRF to have full coverage.
For redirection, to date I've been looking at longest prefix match solutions due to the presumed scalability vs using flowspec. I have an unknown amount of "always on" redirects I might be asked to entertain. 10? 100? 1000? I'm trying to come up with a solution that doesn't rely on touching the routers themselves. I did think about creating a normal [non flowspec] input firewall term on untrusted interfaces that redirects to dirty VRF based in a single destination prefix-list and just relying on flowspec for on demand stuff with the assumption one firewall term with let's say 1000 prefixes is more performant than 1000 standalone flowspec rules. I think my solution is fundamentally workable but I don't think the purchased turnkey ddos orchestration is going to natively interact with our Junipers, so that is looked down upon, since it would require " a router guy " or writing custom automation when adding/removing always-on protection. Seems technically very viable to me, I jus
t bring up these details because I feel like without a ton of effort VRF redirection can be made to be nearly as performant as longest prefix match.
While we run MPLS, currently all of our customers/transit are in the global table. I'm trying to avoid solutions for now that puts the 1M+ RIB DFZ zone into an L3VPN; it's awfully big change I don't want to rush into especially for this proof of concept but I'd like to hear opinions if that's the best solution to this specific problem. I'm not sure it's fundamentally different than creating a customerVRF, seems like I just need to separate the customers from the internet ingress.
My gut says "the best" thing to do is to create a customerVRF but it feels a bit complicated as I have to worry about things like BGP/static/direct and will lose addPath [.I recently discovered add-path and route-target are mutually exclusive in JunOS].
My gut says "the quickest" and least disruptive thing to do is to go the flowspec/filter route and frankly I'm beginning to lean that way since I'm already partially in production and needed to have a solution 5 days ago to this problem :>
I've done all of these things before [flowspec, rib leaking] I think it's just a matter of trying to figure out the next best step and was looking to see if anyone has been in a similar situation and has thoughts/advice/warnings.
I'm talking about IPv4 below but I ack IPv6 is a thing and I would just do the same solution.
-Michael
===/===
@$myrouter> show route forwarding-table destination 1.2.3.4 extensive
Apr 02 08:39:10
Routing table: default.inet [Index 0]
Internet:
Destination: 1.2.3.4/32
Route type: user
Route reference: 0 Route interface-index: 0
Multicast RPF nh index: 0
P2mpidx: 0
Flags: sent to PFE
Next-hop type: indirect Index: 1048588 Reference: 3
Nexthop: 5.6.7.8
Next-hop type: unicast Index: 981 Reference: 3
Next-hop interface: et-0/1/10.3099
Destination: 1.2.3.4/32
Route type: destination
Route reference: 0 Route interface-index: 85
Multicast RPF nh index: 0
P2mpidx: 0
Flags: none
Nexthop: 0:50:56:b3:4f:fe
Next-hop type: unicast Index: 1562 Reference: 1
Next-hop interface: ae17.3347
Routing table: cleanL3VPN.inet [Index 21]
Internet:
Destination: 1.2.3.0/26
Route type: user
Route reference: 0 Route interface-index: 0
Multicast RPF nh index: 0
P2mpidx: 0
Flags: sent to PFE, rt nh decoupled
Next-hop type: table lookup Index: 1 Reference: 40
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