Mailing List Archive

Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023)
NANOGers -

At present ARIN continues to provide the favorable annual maintenance fee cap for legacy resource holders who enter
into an LRSA with ARIN, but this cap on total maintenance fees not be offered to those entering an LRSA after 31 Dec
2023 and they will instead paying the same registration services plan fees as all other ARIN customers. See attached
announcement for details.

We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to
consider doing so before 31 December 2023 in order to secure the most favorable fees for their ARIN Services as well
as being able to access ARIN’s more advanced services such as the Internet Routing Registry (IRR) and Resource Public
Key Infrastructure (RPKI) services.

FYI,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

Begin forwarded message:

From: ARIN <info@arin.net<mailto:info@arin.net>>
Subject: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023
Date: 13 September 2022 at 2:54:03 PM EDT
To: "arin-announce@arin.net<mailto:arin-announce@arin.net>" <arin-announce@arin.net<mailto:arin-announce@arin.net>>

On 11 October 2007, ARIN implemented the first version of the Legacy Registration Services Agreement (LRSA). This agreement and the fees associated with legacy resources have been modified several times over the past 15 years. The most recent change was in 2022 when ARIN transitioned all customers with IPv4 and/or IPv6 number resources to the same Registration Services Plan (RSP) Fee Schedule which has fee categories based on the total amount of resources held.

This most recent change brought those organizations that were issued resources before the formation of ARIN (also known as “legacy resource holders”) into the new Fee Schedule. ARIN also continued providing legacy resource holders a cap on the total amount of maintenance fees due annually – the “annual legacy maintenance fee cap” – that has been offered since the introduction of the LRSA to encourage entry into an LRSA and normalization of these customers’ contractual relationship with ARIN. The “annual legacy maintenance fee cap” is presently set at $150 per year (and will increase by $25 in each subsequent year.)

On 4 August 2022, the ARIN Board of Trustees voted unanimously in favor of ending the annual legacy maintenance fee cap applied to legacy resources brought under an LRSA beginning 1 January 2024. All organizations with active LRSA agreements entered prior to 1 January 2024 will continue to have their fees limited for legacy resources covered before that date per the annual legacy maintenance fee cap as noted above. Any new legacy resources brought under an LRSA as of 1 January 2024 forward will fall under the full, normal RSP fees.

We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to consider doing so before 31 December 2023 in order to secure the most favorable fees for their ARIN Services as well as being able to access ARIN’s more advanced services such as the Internet Routing Registry (IRR) and Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) services.

If you have any questions about billing or the 2022 Fee Schedule, please contact 2022Fees@arin.net<mailto:2022Fees@arin.net>.

Regards,

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)

-----------
REFERENCE LINKS

11 October 2007 Announcement: https://www.arin.net/vault/announcements/2007/20071011.html
ARIN Fee Schedule: https://www.arin.net/resources/fees/
August 2022 Board of Trustees Minutes: https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/board/meetings/2022_0803/
ARIN Services Available to Legacy Organizations: https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/legacy/services/


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Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
> We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
> signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to

consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA

randy
Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 13 Sep 2022, Randy Bush wrote:
>> We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
>> signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to
>
> consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA
> randy
I concur , And seconded .

Hth , JimL
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| James W. Laferriere | System Techniques | Give me VMS |
| Network & System Engineer | 3237 Holden Road | Give me Linux |
| jiml@system-techniques.com | Fairbanks, AK. 99709 | only on AXP |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
John Curran wrote:
> > We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
> > signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to

Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA

Amen to that. ARIN's stance on legacy resources has traditionally been
that ARIN would prefer to charge you annually for them, and then
"recover" them (take them away from you) if you ever stop paying, or if
they ever decide that you are not using them wisely. If you once agree
to an ARIN contract, your resources lose their "legacy" status and you
become just another sharecropper subject to ARIN's future benevolence or
lack thereof.

The change recently announced by John Curran will make the situation
very slightly worse, by making ARIN's annual fees for legacy resources
changeable at their option, instead of being capped by contract. ARIN
management could have changed their offer to be better, if they wanted
to attract legacy users, but they made an explicit choice to do the
opposite.

By contrast, RIPE has developed a much more welcoming stance on legacy
resources, including:

* retaining the legacy status of resources after a transfer or sale
* allowing resources to be registered without paying annual fees to RIPE
(merely paying a one-time transaction fee), so that later non-payment
of annual fees can't be used as an excuse to steal the resources.
* agreeing that RIPE members will keep all their legacy resources even if
they later cease to be RIPE members

You are within the RIPE service area if your network touches Europe,
northern Asia, or Greenland. This can be as simple as having a rented
or donated server located in Europe, or as complicated as running a
worldwide service provider. If you have a presence there, you can
transfer your worldwide resources out from under ARIN policies and put
them under RIPE's jurisdiction instead.

Moving to RIPE is not an unalloyed good; Europeans invented bureaucracy,
and RIPE pursues it with vigor. And getting the above treatment may
require firmly asserting to RIPE that you want it, rather than accepting
the defaults. But their motives are more benevolent than ARIN's toward
legacy resource holders; RIPE honestly seems to want to gather in legacy
resource holders, either as RIPE members or not, without reducing any of
the holders' rights or abilities. I commend them for that.

Other RIRs may have other good or bad policies about legacy resource
holders. As Randy proposed, consult a lawyer competent in legacy domain
registration issues before making any changes.

John
Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
John -

Your summary is not inaccurate; I will note that ARIN’s approach is the result of aiming for
a different target – that more specifically being the lowest possible fees administered on an
equitable basis for _all resource holders_ in the region.

For more than two decades legacy resource holders have been provided the opportunity to
normalize their relations with ARIN by entry into an LRSA - thus receiving the same services
on the same terms and conditions as all others in the region (and also with a favorable fee cap
applied to their total annual registry fees.) While many folks have taken advantage of that
offer over the years, it’s quite possible that all of those interested have already considered
the matter and hence going forward we are returning to the refrain of the entire community
in seeking the lowest fees applied equitably to all in the region.

As we’ve recently added more advanced services that may be of interest to many in the
community (RPKI and authenticated IRR) and also have just made a favorable simplification
to the RSA in section 7 (an area that has been problematic for some organizations in the past),
it is important that ARIN not subset availability of the legacy fee cap without significant notice,
as there many be a few folks out there who were unaware of LRSA with fee cap availability
and/or haven’t recently taken a look at the various tradeoffs.

In any case, legacy resource holders who don’t care for these advanced services (whose
development and maintenance is paid for by the ARIN community) can simply continue to
maintain their legacy resources in the ARIN registry. They do not have to do anything, as
ARIN is continuing to provide basic registration services to the thousands of non-contracted
legacy resource holders (including online updates to your resources, reverse DNS services,
etc.) without fee or contract.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

> On 15 Sep 2022, at 3:41 PM, John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> wrote:
>
> John Curran wrote:
>>> We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
>>> signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to
>
> Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>> consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA
>
> Amen to that. ARIN's stance on legacy resources has traditionally been
> that ARIN would prefer to charge you annually for them, and then
> "recover" them (take them away from you) if you ever stop paying, or if
> they ever decide that you are not using them wisely. If you once agree
> to an ARIN contract, your resources lose their "legacy" status and you
> become just another sharecropper subject to ARIN's future benevolence or
> lack thereof.
>
> The change recently announced by John Curran will make the situation
> very slightly worse, by making ARIN's annual fees for legacy resources
> changeable at their option, instead of being capped by contract. ARIN
> management could have changed their offer to be better, if they wanted
> to attract legacy users, but they made an explicit choice to do the
> opposite.
>
> By contrast, RIPE has developed a much more welcoming stance on legacy
> resources, including:
>
> * retaining the legacy status of resources after a transfer or sale
> * allowing resources to be registered without paying annual fees to RIPE
> (merely paying a one-time transaction fee), so that later non-payment
> of annual fees can't be used as an excuse to steal the resources.
> * agreeing that RIPE members will keep all their legacy resources even if
> they later cease to be RIPE members
>
> You are within the RIPE service area if your network touches Europe,
> northern Asia, or Greenland. This can be as simple as having a rented
> or donated server located in Europe, or as complicated as running a
> worldwide service provider. If you have a presence there, you can
> transfer your worldwide resources out from under ARIN policies and put
> them under RIPE's jurisdiction instead.
>
> Moving to RIPE is not an unalloyed good; Europeans invented bureaucracy,
> and RIPE pursues it with vigor. And getting the above treatment may
> require firmly asserting to RIPE that you want it, rather than accepting
> the defaults. But their motives are more benevolent than ARIN's toward
> legacy resource holders; RIPE honestly seems to want to gather in legacy
> resource holders, either as RIPE members or not, without reducing any of
> the holders' rights or abilities. I commend them for that.
>
> Other RIRs may have other good or bad policies about legacy resource
> holders. As Randy proposed, consult a lawyer competent in legacy domain
> registration issues before making any changes.
>
> John
Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
NANOGers -

My bad – one typo in the message that follows; it should read “… it is important that ARIN not _sunset_ availability of the legacy fee cap …” (NOT subset, subnet, subject, etc.)

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers


> On 15 Sep 2022, at 4:34 PM, John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:
>
> John -
>
> Your summary is not inaccurate; I will note that ARIN’s approach is the result of aiming for
> a different target – that more specifically being the lowest possible fees administered on an
> equitable basis for _all resource holders_ in the region.
>
> For more than two decades legacy resource holders have been provided the opportunity to
> normalize their relations with ARIN by entry into an LRSA - thus receiving the same services
> on the same terms and conditions as all others in the region (and also with a favorable fee cap
> applied to their total annual registry fees.) While many folks have taken advantage of that
> offer over the years, it’s quite possible that all of those interested have already considered
> the matter and hence going forward we are returning to the refrain of the entire community
> in seeking the lowest fees applied equitably to all in the region.
>
> As we’ve recently added more advanced services that may be of interest to many in the
> community (RPKI and authenticated IRR) and also have just made a favorable simplification
> to the RSA in section 7 (an area that has been problematic for some organizations in the past),
> it is important that ARIN not subset availability of the legacy fee cap without significant notice,
> as there many be a few folks out there who were unaware of LRSA with fee cap availability
> and/or haven’t recently taken a look at the various tradeoffs.
>
> In any case, legacy resource holders who don’t care for these advanced services (whose
> development and maintenance is paid for by the ARIN community) can simply continue to
> maintain their legacy resources in the ARIN registry. They do not have to do anything, as
> ARIN is continuing to provide basic registration services to the thousands of non-contracted
> legacy resource holders (including online updates to your resources, reverse DNS services,
> etc.) without fee or contract.
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>> On 15 Sep 2022, at 3:41 PM, John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> wrote:
>>
>> John Curran wrote:
>>>> We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
>>>> signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to
>>
>> Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>>> consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA
>>
>> Amen to that. ARIN's stance on legacy resources has traditionally been
>> that ARIN would prefer to charge you annually for them, and then
>> "recover" them (take them away from you) if you ever stop paying, or if
>> they ever decide that you are not using them wisely. If you once agree
>> to an ARIN contract, your resources lose their "legacy" status and you
>> become just another sharecropper subject to ARIN's future benevolence or
>> lack thereof.
>>
>> The change recently announced by John Curran will make the situation
>> very slightly worse, by making ARIN's annual fees for legacy resources
>> changeable at their option, instead of being capped by contract. ARIN
>> management could have changed their offer to be better, if they wanted
>> to attract legacy users, but they made an explicit choice to do the
>> opposite.
>>
>> By contrast, RIPE has developed a much more welcoming stance on legacy
>> resources, including:
>>
>> * retaining the legacy status of resources after a transfer or sale
>> * allowing resources to be registered without paying annual fees to RIPE
>> (merely paying a one-time transaction fee), so that later non-payment
>> of annual fees can't be used as an excuse to steal the resources.
>> * agreeing that RIPE members will keep all their legacy resources even if
>> they later cease to be RIPE members
>>
>> You are within the RIPE service area if your network touches Europe,
>> northern Asia, or Greenland. This can be as simple as having a rented
>> or donated server located in Europe, or as complicated as running a
>> worldwide service provider. If you have a presence there, you can
>> transfer your worldwide resources out from under ARIN policies and put
>> them under RIPE's jurisdiction instead.
>>
>> Moving to RIPE is not an unalloyed good; Europeans invented bureaucracy,
>> and RIPE pursues it with vigor. And getting the above treatment may
>> require firmly asserting to RIPE that you want it, rather than accepting
>> the defaults. But their motives are more benevolent than ARIN's toward
>> legacy resource holders; RIPE honestly seems to want to gather in legacy
>> resource holders, either as RIPE members or not, without reducing any of
>> the holders' rights or abilities. I commend them for that.
>>
>> Other RIRs may have other good or bad policies about legacy resource
>> holders. As Randy proposed, consult a lawyer competent in legacy domain
>> registration issues before making any changes.
>>
>> John
>
Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
Yo John!

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 20:34:43 +0000
John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:

> In any case, legacy resource holders who don’t care for these
> advanced services (whose development and maintenance is paid for by
> the ARIN community) can simply continue to maintain their legacy
> resources in the ARIN registry. They do not have to do anything, as
> ARIN is continuing to provide basic registration services to the
> thousands of non-contracted legacy resource holders (including online
> updates to your resources, reverse DNS services, etc.) without fee or
> contract.

Not been my experience.

RGDS
GARY
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
gem@rellim.com Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
"If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin
Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On 15 Sep 2022, at 4:45 PM, Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 20:34:43 +0000
> John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:
>
>> In any case, legacy resource holders who don’t care for these
>> advanced services (whose development and maintenance is paid for by
>> the ARIN community) can simply continue to maintain their legacy
>> resources in the ARIN registry. They do not have to do anything, as
>> ARIN is continuing to provide basic registration services to the
>> thousands of non-contracted legacy resource holders (including online
>> updates to your resources, reverse DNS services, etc.) without fee or
>> contract.
>
> Not been my experience.

Gary -

We do have some cases where folks have difficulty demonstrating that the resources were issued to
them (and/or have disputes between parties over who is the actual rights holder), but otherwise you
should be able to create an ARIN Online account and administer ARIN services for the address block
without any agreement - see https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/legacy/services/ <https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/legacy/services/> for details. The
intent is that legacy resource holders receive the same registry services (w/o fee or contract) as they
did before ARIN’s inception.

If you’ve got a situation where you believe that has not been the case, reach out to our Registration
Services Helpdesk <https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/helpdesk/ <https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/helpdesk/>>, and if that fails, reach out to
me and provide a reference to the appropriate ARIN ticket(s) so that I can review.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers
RE: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
Speaking from the enterprise / end site perspective I would bet there are a lot of legacy holders that other than maybe updating their reverse DNS records once or twice haven’t looked at ARIN policies or their allocation since the late 1980s. In most cases there really is not strong technical reason to, the stuff just keeps working.

We are put in kind of an awkward place by the current policies. On one hand some of us would like to be good Internet citizens and implement things like IRR and RPKI for our resources to help the larger community. But show the RSA/LRSA to your lawyers with the justification that "I would like to implement RPKI, but everything will keep working even if we don't." You can bet they will never jump on board. On one hand there is a push from ARIN and the larger community to use these advanced services, but on the other hand the fees and risk far outweigh the benefits. (Heck the fees aren’t even that big of a deal, just the risk of loosing control of our legacy allocations.)

Tom Krenn
Network Architect
Enterprise Architecture - Information Technology




-----Original Message-----
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tom.krenn=hennepin.us@nanog.org> On Behalf Of John Curran
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 3:35 PM
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023)

CAUTION: This email was sent from outside of Hennepin County. Unless you recognize the sender and know the content, do not click links or open attachments.

John -

Your summary is not inaccurate; I will note that ARIN’s approach is the result of aiming for a different target – that more specifically being the lowest possible fees administered on an equitable basis for _all resource holders_ in the region.

For more than two decades legacy resource holders have been provided the opportunity to normalize their relations with ARIN by entry into an LRSA - thus receiving the same services on the same terms and conditions as all others in the region (and also with a favorable fee cap applied to their total annual registry fees.) While many folks have taken advantage of that offer over the years, it’s quite possible that all of those interested have already considered the matter and hence going forward we are returning to the refrain of the entire community in seeking the lowest fees applied equitably to all in the region.

As we’ve recently added more advanced services that may be of interest to many in the community (RPKI and authenticated IRR) and also have just made a favorable simplification to the RSA in section 7 (an area that has been problematic for some organizations in the past), it is important that ARIN not subset availability of the legacy fee cap without significant notice, as there many be a few folks out there who were unaware of LRSA with fee cap availability and/or haven’t recently taken a look at the various tradeoffs.

In any case, legacy resource holders who don’t care for these advanced services (whose development and maintenance is paid for by the ARIN community) can simply continue to maintain their legacy resources in the ARIN registry. They do not have to do anything, as ARIN is continuing to provide basic registration services to the thousands of non-contracted legacy resource holders (including online updates to your resources, reverse DNS services,
etc.) without fee or contract.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

> On 15 Sep 2022, at 3:41 PM, John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> wrote:
>
> John Curran wrote:
>>> We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
>>> signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to
>
> Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>> consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA
>
> Amen to that. ARIN's stance on legacy resources has traditionally
> been that ARIN would prefer to charge you annually for them, and then
> "recover" them (take them away from you) if you ever stop paying, or
> if they ever decide that you are not using them wisely. If you once
> agree to an ARIN contract, your resources lose their "legacy" status
> and you become just another sharecropper subject to ARIN's future
> benevolence or lack thereof.
>
> The change recently announced by John Curran will make the situation
> very slightly worse, by making ARIN's annual fees for legacy resources
> changeable at their option, instead of being capped by contract. ARIN
> management could have changed their offer to be better, if they wanted
> to attract legacy users, but they made an explicit choice to do the
> opposite.
>
> By contrast, RIPE has developed a much more welcoming stance on legacy
> resources, including:
>
> * retaining the legacy status of resources after a transfer or sale
> * allowing resources to be registered without paying annual fees to RIPE
> (merely paying a one-time transaction fee), so that later non-payment
> of annual fees can't be used as an excuse to steal the resources.
> * agreeing that RIPE members will keep all their legacy resources even if
> they later cease to be RIPE members
>
> You are within the RIPE service area if your network touches Europe,
> northern Asia, or Greenland. This can be as simple as having a rented
> or donated server located in Europe, or as complicated as running a
> worldwide service provider. If you have a presence there, you can
> transfer your worldwide resources out from under ARIN policies and put
> them under RIPE's jurisdiction instead.
>
> Moving to RIPE is not an unalloyed good; Europeans invented
> bureaucracy, and RIPE pursues it with vigor. And getting the above
> treatment may require firmly asserting to RIPE that you want it,
> rather than accepting the defaults. But their motives are more
> benevolent than ARIN's toward legacy resource holders; RIPE honestly
> seems to want to gather in legacy resource holders, either as RIPE
> members or not, without reducing any of the holders' rights or abilities. I commend them for that.
>
> Other RIRs may have other good or bad policies about legacy resource
> holders. As Randy proposed, consult a lawyer competent in legacy
> domain registration issues before making any changes.
>
> John



Disclaimer: If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please immediately notify the sender of the transmission error and then promptly permanently delete this message from your computer system.
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust
anchor and provide such services to legacy block holders. As you
mentioned, that would probably have a price tag attached to it to
cover the costs for such operations, but a contract could stay away
from ownership issues and not either say the blocks are yours or that
the blocks could be taken from you. Pay for the services, get RPKI;
don't pay them, RPKI ROAs expire.

I have a feeling that the recurring cost would be higher than using
the scale that the RIR system has in providing those services, and
that doing RIR-shopping (like what was already suggested here, moving
the resources to RIPE) is simpler and more cost effective. But this
would at least expose the real costs without making the RIR-allocated
resource holders subsidize legacy resource holders, which is the good
thing I see in the direction ARIN is going.

Rubens

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 5:18 AM Tom Krenn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
>
> Speaking from the enterprise / end site perspective I would bet there are a lot of legacy holders that other than maybe updating their reverse DNS records once or twice haven’t looked at ARIN policies or their allocation since the late 1980s. In most cases there really is not strong technical reason to, the stuff just keeps working.
>
> We are put in kind of an awkward place by the current policies. On one hand some of us would like to be good Internet citizens and implement things like IRR and RPKI for our resources to help the larger community. But show the RSA/LRSA to your lawyers with the justification that "I would like to implement RPKI, but everything will keep working even if we don't." You can bet they will never jump on board. On one hand there is a push from ARIN and the larger community to use these advanced services, but on the other hand the fees and risk far outweigh the benefits. (Heck the fees aren’t even that big of a deal, just the risk of loosing control of our legacy allocations.)
>
> Tom Krenn
> Network Architect
> Enterprise Architecture - Information Technology
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tom.krenn=hennepin.us@nanog.org> On Behalf Of John Curran
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 3:35 PM
> To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
> Subject: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023)
>
> CAUTION: This email was sent from outside of Hennepin County. Unless you recognize the sender and know the content, do not click links or open attachments.
>
> John -
>
> Your summary is not inaccurate; I will note that ARIN’s approach is the result of aiming for a different target – that more specifically being the lowest possible fees administered on an equitable basis for _all resource holders_ in the region.
>
> For more than two decades legacy resource holders have been provided the opportunity to normalize their relations with ARIN by entry into an LRSA - thus receiving the same services on the same terms and conditions as all others in the region (and also with a favorable fee cap applied to their total annual registry fees.) While many folks have taken advantage of that offer over the years, it’s quite possible that all of those interested have already considered the matter and hence going forward we are returning to the refrain of the entire community in seeking the lowest fees applied equitably to all in the region.
>
> As we’ve recently added more advanced services that may be of interest to many in the community (RPKI and authenticated IRR) and also have just made a favorable simplification to the RSA in section 7 (an area that has been problematic for some organizations in the past), it is important that ARIN not subset availability of the legacy fee cap without significant notice, as there many be a few folks out there who were unaware of LRSA with fee cap availability and/or haven’t recently taken a look at the various tradeoffs.
>
> In any case, legacy resource holders who don’t care for these advanced services (whose development and maintenance is paid for by the ARIN community) can simply continue to maintain their legacy resources in the ARIN registry. They do not have to do anything, as ARIN is continuing to provide basic registration services to the thousands of non-contracted legacy resource holders (including online updates to your resources, reverse DNS services,
> etc.) without fee or contract.
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
> > On 15 Sep 2022, at 3:41 PM, John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> wrote:
> >
> > John Curran wrote:
> >>> We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
> >>> signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to
> >
> > Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> >> consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA
> >
> > Amen to that. ARIN's stance on legacy resources has traditionally
> > been that ARIN would prefer to charge you annually for them, and then
> > "recover" them (take them away from you) if you ever stop paying, or
> > if they ever decide that you are not using them wisely. If you once
> > agree to an ARIN contract, your resources lose their "legacy" status
> > and you become just another sharecropper subject to ARIN's future
> > benevolence or lack thereof.
> >
> > The change recently announced by John Curran will make the situation
> > very slightly worse, by making ARIN's annual fees for legacy resources
> > changeable at their option, instead of being capped by contract. ARIN
> > management could have changed their offer to be better, if they wanted
> > to attract legacy users, but they made an explicit choice to do the
> > opposite.
> >
> > By contrast, RIPE has developed a much more welcoming stance on legacy
> > resources, including:
> >
> > * retaining the legacy status of resources after a transfer or sale
> > * allowing resources to be registered without paying annual fees to RIPE
> > (merely paying a one-time transaction fee), so that later non-payment
> > of annual fees can't be used as an excuse to steal the resources.
> > * agreeing that RIPE members will keep all their legacy resources even if
> > they later cease to be RIPE members
> >
> > You are within the RIPE service area if your network touches Europe,
> > northern Asia, or Greenland. This can be as simple as having a rented
> > or donated server located in Europe, or as complicated as running a
> > worldwide service provider. If you have a presence there, you can
> > transfer your worldwide resources out from under ARIN policies and put
> > them under RIPE's jurisdiction instead.
> >
> > Moving to RIPE is not an unalloyed good; Europeans invented
> > bureaucracy, and RIPE pursues it with vigor. And getting the above
> > treatment may require firmly asserting to RIPE that you want it,
> > rather than accepting the defaults. But their motives are more
> > benevolent than ARIN's toward legacy resource holders; RIPE honestly
> > seems to want to gather in legacy resource holders, either as RIPE
> > members or not, without reducing any of the holders' rights or abilities. I commend them for that.
> >
> > Other RIRs may have other good or bad policies about legacy resource
> > holders. As Randy proposed, consult a lawyer competent in legacy
> > domain registration issues before making any changes.
> >
> > John
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please immediately notify the sender of the transmission error and then promptly permanently delete this message from your computer system.
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
> You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust
> anchor and provide such services to legacy block holders.

the rpki design cabal assumed the iana would be the rpki root. rir
power players blocked that. so each rir is 0/0. brilliant, eh?

randy
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 7:07 AM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
> > You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust
> > anchor and provide such services to legacy block holders.
>
> the rpki design cabal assumed the iana would be the rpki root. rir
> power players blocked that. so each rir is 0/0. brilliant, eh?

I'm not fond of that decision either, but at this point it is how it
is. We already have the operation of inter-RIR reverse DNS
synchronization since each /8 is not single-RIR anymore, and I believe
a similar mechanism could have allowed for a single RPKI root.

But I note that the 0/0 trust anchors preceded IANA transition to PTI,
and that even after the transition, we still have an organization that
doesn't have jurisdictional immunity in the US to prevent possible
petty challenges to the system. So the world at large still benefits
from the multiple trust anchor design, when all trade-offs are
accounted for.


Rubens
RE: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
An interesting idea, but like others have said I think the ship may have sailed for RPKI. Really I have no problem with the ARIN fees. They are a drop in the bucket for most network budgets. In fact as a legacy holder I would gladly pay the same as an RIR-allocated resource holder if it would allow the use of the more advanced services. It's the ownership question and RSA/LRSA language that throws the wrench in everything.

As John said " I will note that ARIN’s approach is the result of aiming for a different target – that more specifically being the lowest possible fees administered on an equitable basis for _all resource holders_ in the region.". If that's the goal, give us the option to pay the same without all the legal mess around signing the RSA/LRSA. I'm sure that's what has been holding some organizations back for the couple decades mentioned. It has been the major stumbling point for a few of the ones I've been part of over the years.

Tom Krenn
Network Architect
Enterprise Architecture - Information Technology




-----Original Message-----
From: Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 5:56 PM
To: Tom Krenn <Tom.Krenn@hennepin.us>
Cc: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net>; John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>; North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023)

You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust anchor and provide such services to legacy block holders. As you mentioned, that would probably have a price tag attached to it to cover the costs for such operations, but a contract could stay away from ownership issues and not either say the blocks are yours or that the blocks could be taken from you. Pay for the services, get RPKI; don't pay them, RPKI ROAs expire.

I have a feeling that the recurring cost would be higher than using the scale that the RIR system has in providing those services, and that doing RIR-shopping (like what was already suggested here, moving the resources to RIPE) is simpler and more cost effective. But this would at least expose the real costs without making the RIR-allocated resource holders subsidize legacy resource holders, which is the good thing I see in the direction ARIN is going.

Rubens

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 5:18 AM Tom Krenn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
>
> Speaking from the enterprise / end site perspective I would bet there are a lot of legacy holders that other than maybe updating their reverse DNS records once or twice haven’t looked at ARIN policies or their allocation since the late 1980s. In most cases there really is not strong technical reason to, the stuff just keeps working.
>
> We are put in kind of an awkward place by the current policies. On one
> hand some of us would like to be good Internet citizens and implement
> things like IRR and RPKI for our resources to help the larger
> community. But show the RSA/LRSA to your lawyers with the
> justification that "I would like to implement RPKI, but everything
> will keep working even if we don't." You can bet they will never jump
> on board. On one hand there is a push from ARIN and the larger
> community to use these advanced services, but on the other hand the
> fees and risk far outweigh the benefits. (Heck the fees aren’t even
> that big of a deal, just the risk of loosing control of our legacy
> allocations.)
>
> Tom Krenn
> Network Architect
> Enterprise Architecture - Information Technology
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tom.krenn=hennepin.us@nanog.org> On Behalf
> Of John Curran
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 3:35 PM
> To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
> Subject: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA
> entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of
> the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December
> 2023)
>
> CAUTION: This email was sent from outside of Hennepin County. Unless you recognize the sender and know the content, do not click links or open attachments.
>
> John -
>
> Your summary is not inaccurate; I will note that ARIN’s approach is the result of aiming for a different target – that more specifically being the lowest possible fees administered on an equitable basis for _all resource holders_ in the region.
>
> For more than two decades legacy resource holders have been provided the opportunity to normalize their relations with ARIN by entry into an LRSA - thus receiving the same services on the same terms and conditions as all others in the region (and also with a favorable fee cap applied to their total annual registry fees.) While many folks have taken advantage of that offer over the years, it’s quite possible that all of those interested have already considered the matter and hence going forward we are returning to the refrain of the entire community in seeking the lowest fees applied equitably to all in the region.
>
> As we’ve recently added more advanced services that may be of interest to many in the community (RPKI and authenticated IRR) and also have just made a favorable simplification to the RSA in section 7 (an area that has been problematic for some organizations in the past), it is important that ARIN not subset availability of the legacy fee cap without significant notice, as there many be a few folks out there who were unaware of LRSA with fee cap availability and/or haven’t recently taken a look at the various tradeoffs.
>
> In any case, legacy resource holders who don’t care for these advanced
> services (whose development and maintenance is paid for by the ARIN
> community) can simply continue to maintain their legacy resources in
> the ARIN registry. They do not have to do anything, as ARIN is
> continuing to provide basic registration services to the thousands of
> non-contracted legacy resource holders (including online updates to
> your resources, reverse DNS services,
> etc.) without fee or contract.
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
> > On 15 Sep 2022, at 3:41 PM, John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> wrote:
> >
> > John Curran wrote:
> >>> We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
> >>> signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to
> >
> > Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> >> consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA
> >
> > Amen to that. ARIN's stance on legacy resources has traditionally
> > been that ARIN would prefer to charge you annually for them, and
> > then "recover" them (take them away from you) if you ever stop
> > paying, or if they ever decide that you are not using them wisely.
> > If you once agree to an ARIN contract, your resources lose their
> > "legacy" status and you become just another sharecropper subject to
> > ARIN's future benevolence or lack thereof.
> >
> > The change recently announced by John Curran will make the situation
> > very slightly worse, by making ARIN's annual fees for legacy
> > resources changeable at their option, instead of being capped by
> > contract. ARIN management could have changed their offer to be
> > better, if they wanted to attract legacy users, but they made an
> > explicit choice to do the opposite.
> >
> > By contrast, RIPE has developed a much more welcoming stance on
> > legacy resources, including:
> >
> > * retaining the legacy status of resources after a transfer or
> > sale
> > * allowing resources to be registered without paying annual fees to RIPE
> > (merely paying a one-time transaction fee), so that later non-payment
> > of annual fees can't be used as an excuse to steal the resources.
> > * agreeing that RIPE members will keep all their legacy resources even if
> > they later cease to be RIPE members
> >
> > You are within the RIPE service area if your network touches Europe,
> > northern Asia, or Greenland. This can be as simple as having a
> > rented or donated server located in Europe, or as complicated as
> > running a worldwide service provider. If you have a presence there,
> > you can transfer your worldwide resources out from under ARIN
> > policies and put them under RIPE's jurisdiction instead.
> >
> > Moving to RIPE is not an unalloyed good; Europeans invented
> > bureaucracy, and RIPE pursues it with vigor. And getting the above
> > treatment may require firmly asserting to RIPE that you want it,
> > rather than accepting the defaults. But their motives are more
> > benevolent than ARIN's toward legacy resource holders; RIPE honestly
> > seems to want to gather in legacy resource holders, either as RIPE
> > members or not, without reducing any of the holders' rights or abilities. I commend them for that.
> >
> > Other RIRs may have other good or bad policies about legacy resource
> > holders. As Randy proposed, consult a lawyer competent in legacy
> > domain registration issues before making any changes.
> >
> > John
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please immediately notify the sender of the transmission error and then promptly permanently delete this message from your computer system.


Disclaimer: If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please immediately notify the sender of the transmission error and then promptly permanently delete this message from your computer system.
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 4:07 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> > You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust
> > anchor and provide such services to legacy block holders.
>
> the rpki design cabal assumed the iana would be the rpki root. rir
> power players blocked that. so each rir is 0/0. brilliant, eh?

Which means that all you'd need is a volunteer group with "street
cred" to set up an RPKI for legacy holders and then convince folks to
use their trust anchor too. Or have I missed something?

Regards,
Bill Herrin

--
For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 9:46 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 4:07 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> > > You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust
> > > anchor and provide such services to legacy block holders.
> >
> > the rpki design cabal assumed the iana would be the rpki root. rir
> > power players blocked that. so each rir is 0/0. brilliant, eh?
>
> Which means that all you'd need is a volunteer group with "street
> cred" to set up an RPKI for legacy holders and then convince folks to
> use their trust anchor too. Or have I missed something?

Merit, perhaps ?

But they would need to do a much stricter validation that they
currently have in RADB, which is more like Sledgehammer motto "Trust
me, I know what I'm doing".


Rubens
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 7:32 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 9:46 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 4:07 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> > > > You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust
> > > > anchor and provide such services to legacy block holders.
> > >
> > > the rpki design cabal assumed the iana would be the rpki root. rir
> > > power players blocked that. so each rir is 0/0. brilliant, eh?
> >
> > Which means that all you'd need is a volunteer group with "street
> > cred" to set up an RPKI for legacy holders and then convince folks to
> > use their trust anchor too. Or have I missed something?
>
> Merit, perhaps ?
>
> But they would need to do a much stricter validation that they
> currently have in RADB, which is more like Sledgehammer motto "Trust
> me, I know what I'm doing".

Hi Rubens,

Last I checked, Merit was -really- expensive for RADB. I don't really
see getting more than about 5 figures total per year out of the legacy
registrants for RPKI, if that much. I think it'd have to be a
volunteer effort or something funded by someone who finds it to their
advantage that the legacy registrants publish RPKI records. Like the
way Letsencrypt is funded.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:41 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 7:32 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 9:46 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
> > > On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 4:07 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> > > > > You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust
> > > > > anchor and provide such services to legacy block holders.
> > > >
> > > > the rpki design cabal assumed the iana would be the rpki root. rir
> > > > power players blocked that. so each rir is 0/0. brilliant, eh?
> > >
> > > Which means that all you'd need is a volunteer group with "street
> > > cred" to set up an RPKI for legacy holders and then convince folks to
> > > use their trust anchor too. Or have I missed something?
> >
> > Merit, perhaps ?
> >
> > But they would need to do a much stricter validation that they
> > currently have in RADB, which is more like Sledgehammer motto "Trust
> > me, I know what I'm doing".
>
> Hi Rubens,
>
> Last I checked, Merit was -really- expensive for RADB. I don't really
> see getting more than about 5 figures total per year out of the legacy
> registrants for RPKI, if that much. I think it'd have to be a
> volunteer effort or something funded by someone who finds it to their
> advantage that the legacy registrants publish RPKI records. Like the
> way Letsencrypt is funded.


Legacy holders are sitting on millions or billions worth of assets.
RADB USD 595 a year is pennies in comparison, and USD 1k or 2k a year
for the RPKI service would still be 1E-10 of the asset value.

Rubens
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 7:46 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> Legacy holders are sitting on millions or billions worth of assets.
> RADB USD 595 a year is pennies in comparison, and USD 1k or 2k a year
> for the RPKI service would still be 1E-10 of the asset value.

Hi Rubens,

Well, I'm one of the people who'd publish RPKI records for my /23 if I
had the ability to do so and I definitely would NOT pay merit $595/yr
(let alone $1k or $2k) to gain that ability. YMMV but I'm willing to
bet there's not enough money out there to fund it with direct user
fees and even if there was, the level of participation in the presence
of more than trivial user fees would be too low to be worth the
effort.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



--
For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:56 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 7:46 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Legacy holders are sitting on millions or billions worth of assets.
> > RADB USD 595 a year is pennies in comparison, and USD 1k or 2k a year
> > for the RPKI service would still be 1E-10 of the asset value.
>
> Hi Rubens,
>
> Well, I'm one of the people who'd publish RPKI records for my /23 if I
> had the ability to do so and I definitely would NOT pay merit $595/yr
> (let alone $1k or $2k) to gain that ability. YMMV but I'm willing to
> bet there's not enough money out there to fund it with direct user
> fees and even if there was, the level of participation in the presence
> of more than trivial user fees would be too low to be worth the
> effort.


Your /23 is worth only USD 30k, so you are definitely not in a
position to find that affordable.
It seems ARIN LRSA with the current fees and caps would be the best
option, and that option has a time limit.


Rubens
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 8:51 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:56 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
> > Well, I'm one of the people who'd publish RPKI records for my /23 if I
> > had the ability to do so and I definitely would NOT pay merit $595/yr
> > (let alone $1k or $2k) to gain that ability. YMMV but I'm willing to
> > bet there's not enough money out there to fund it with direct user
> > fees and even if there was, the level of participation in the presence
> > of more than trivial user fees would be too low to be worth the
> > effort.
>
> Your /23 is worth only USD 30k, so you are definitely not in a
> position to find that affordable.
> It seems ARIN LRSA with the current fees and caps would be the best
> option, and that option has a time limit.

No, the best option for me right now is that I just don't participate
in RPKI and the system has one less participant. And that's a shame.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:55 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 8:51 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:56 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
> > > Well, I'm one of the people who'd publish RPKI records for my /23 if I
> > > had the ability to do so and I definitely would NOT pay merit $595/yr
> > > (let alone $1k or $2k) to gain that ability. YMMV but I'm willing to
> > > bet there's not enough money out there to fund it with direct user
> > > fees and even if there was, the level of participation in the presence
> > > of more than trivial user fees would be too low to be worth the
> > > effort.
> >
> > Your /23 is worth only USD 30k, so you are definitely not in a
> > position to find that affordable.
> > It seems ARIN LRSA with the current fees and caps would be the best
> > option, and that option has a time limit.
>
> No, the best option for me right now is that I just don't participate
> in RPKI and the system has one less participant. And that's a shame.

That's only true in the current environment where RPKI is only used to
invalidate bogus routes. When any reachability for RPKI-unknowns is
lost, that will change. But it will be too late then to join the
system, so you just sell it for USD 50k and start using NAT.

Just a calculation: current LRSA fee is USD 150, cap is 25 USD per
year increase. 2X-Small is USD 500 per year, so it will take 14 years
to reach that level. Pick your poison, NAT or LRSA.


Rubens



Rubens
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 9:09 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:55 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
> > No, the best option for me right now is that I just don't participate
> > in RPKI and the system has one less participant. And that's a shame.
>
> That's only true in the current environment where RPKI is only used to
> invalidate bogus routes. When any reachability for RPKI-unknowns is
> lost, that will change.

Hi Rubens,

If you want to bet me on folks ever deciding to discard RPKI-unknowns
down in the legacy class C's I'll be happy to take your money.


> But it will be too late then to join the
> system, so you just sell it for USD 50k and start using NAT.

Since I can convert to the regular ARIN RSA at any time and gain
access to RPKI the concept of "too late" doesn't really exist here.


> Just a calculation: current LRSA fee is USD 150, cap is 25 USD per
> year increase. 2X-Small is USD 500 per year, so it will take 14 years
> to reach that level. Pick your poison, NAT or LRSA.

Yah, except at some point I'll get a /48 bumping my $150/yr AS fee up
to a $250/yr service fee. Then the delta to add my legacy /23 is only
$250. In 4 years, the LRSA fee will be $250, the same amount. But
that's not the break-even point. If I wait one year, its $250*3=$750
vs $150+$175+$200+$225=$750. I break even on the legacy fee schedule
by waiting just one year and then taking the regular annual fee.

Actually, it's a little funkier than that because my AS and /23 are
under different org ids. When I do all this, I'll have to pay the one
time $500 M&A fee or else in year 5 the LRSA for the /23 plus the
$250/yr for IPv6 and an AS will actually cost more than $500/yr and
will keep growing annually to $750.

Anyway, the risk/reward calculation for NOT signing the LRSA right now
is really a no-brainer. It's just unfortunate that means I won't get
an early start on RPKI.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:45 PM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 9:09 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:55 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
> > > No, the best option for me right now is that I just don't participate
> > > in RPKI and the system has one less participant. And that's a shame.
> >
> > That's only true in the current environment where RPKI is only used to
> > invalidate bogus routes. When any reachability for RPKI-unknowns is
> > lost, that will change.
>
> Hi Rubens,
>
> If you want to bet me on folks ever deciding to discard RPKI-unknowns
> down in the legacy class C's I'll be happy to take your money.

I don't think people will look at even the class, and definitively not
to legacy or non-legacy partitions.
They will either drop it all, or not drop it at all.

Note that when the only IP blocks that spammers and abusers can inject
in the system are non-signed ones, those blocks will get bad
reputations pretty fast. So the legacy holders use case for RPKI might
come sooner than you think.

> Anyway, the risk/reward calculation for NOT signing the LRSA right now
> is really a no-brainer. It's just unfortunate that means I won't get
> an early start on RPKI.

Discarding RPKI-invalids is something you can do right now and that
doesn't come with a price tag. Good BCP38 and RPKI-invalid hygiene is
the thankless gift you can give to the community.


Rubens
RE: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
"Anyway, the risk/reward calculation for NOT signing the LRSA right now is really a no-brainer. It's just unfortunate that means I won't get an early start on RPKI."

Excellent 1 line summary!

Tom Krenn
Network Architect
Enterprise Architecture - Information Technology




-----Original Message-----
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tom.krenn=hennepin.us@nanog.org> On Behalf Of William Herrin
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 11:45 PM
To: Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com>
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023)

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 9:09 PM Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:55 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
> > No, the best option for me right now is that I just don't
> > participate in RPKI and the system has one less participant. And that's a shame.
>
> That's only true in the current environment where RPKI is only used to
> invalidate bogus routes. When any reachability for RPKI-unknowns is
> lost, that will change.

Hi Rubens,

If you want to bet me on folks ever deciding to discard RPKI-unknowns down in the legacy class C's I'll be happy to take your money.


> But it will be too late then to join the system, so you just sell it
> for USD 50k and start using NAT.

Since I can convert to the regular ARIN RSA at any time and gain access to RPKI the concept of "too late" doesn't really exist here.


> Just a calculation: current LRSA fee is USD 150, cap is 25 USD per
> year increase. 2X-Small is USD 500 per year, so it will take 14 years
> to reach that level. Pick your poison, NAT or LRSA.

Yah, except at some point I'll get a /48 bumping my $150/yr AS fee up to a $250/yr service fee. Then the delta to add my legacy /23 is only $250. In 4 years, the LRSA fee will be $250, the same amount. But that's not the break-even point. If I wait one year, its $250*3=$750 vs $150+$175+$200+$225=$750. I break even on the legacy fee schedule by waiting just one year and then taking the regular annual fee.

Actually, it's a little funkier than that because my AS and /23 are under different org ids. When I do all this, I'll have to pay the one time $500 M&A fee or else in year 5 the LRSA for the /23 plus the $250/yr for IPv6 and an AS will actually cost more than $500/yr and will keep growing annually to $750.

Anyway, the risk/reward calculation for NOT signing the LRSA right now is really a no-brainer. It's just unfortunate that means I won't get an early start on RPKI.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
For hire. https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbill.herrin.us%2Fresume%2F&amp;data=05%7C01%7Ctom.krenn%40hennepin.us%7C4ffca4d22059437c9bba08da979e4c4e%7C8aefdf9f878046bf8fb74c924653a8be%7C0%7C0%7C637989003408555221%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=cx9wE8mascaw3qbbK1J5w7q0KgqydLxnvkkpmJXK5W4%3D&amp;reserved=0


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Re: Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) [ In reply to ]
I highly recommend that legacy holders who wish to ensure that their rights are respected transfer their registrations to RIPE-NCC, whether they have signed the LRSA or not.

Transferring to RIPE-NCC as Legacy without Contract will afford you full respect for your rights in your resources in perpetuity (or at least as long as RIPE-NCC lasts) without requiring a contract and without having to pay fees.

If you need to establish presence in Europe to satisfy RIPE’s requirements, a cheap virtual machine can be leased for a month or two to get through the process and is never verified or validated thereafter.

I was an early signatory to the LRSA thinking I was doing the right thing. After the ARIN board changed end users from fee-per-ORG to fee-per-resource in order to get around the fee cap and bifurcated my org into two orgs (allowing them to charge even more), I came to regret that decision. Since transferring my legacy resources to RIPE-NCC, I have been considerably happier.

Owen


> On Sep 13, 2022, at 18:24 , Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
>> We strongly encourage all legacy resource holders who have not yet
>> signed an LRSA to cover their legacy resources to
>
> consult a competent lawyer before signing an LRSA
>
> randy

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