Mailing List Archive

The Nokia 7250-ixr-e covers exactly the port density and price range you are looking for. 24x1/10, 8x10/25 and 2x100G with 300G total capacity.



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Colton Conor
Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2021 4:39 am
To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs





We have used Juniper's ACX line primarily, but there is a big gap in their product line. The ACX2200 has only two 10G ports. The next jump up from there is the ACX710 with 24 10G ports. They have nothing in between that has 4-12 10G ports. Not to mention, Juniper is very proud price wise. We are looking for cost efficient 10G NIDs with at least 4 10G ports on them and aggregation boxes with at least 12 10G ports on them with 25g/100G uplinks.

Tony,

Thanks, I wasn't aware of this model. This would compete with the ACX710
based on the specs (actually have a bit more ports). I guess I will have to
reach out, but price wise where does this box come in?

What is Nokia's low cost NID that has at least 4 10G ports?

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:49 AM Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz> wrote:

> The Nokia 7250-ixr-e covers exactly the port density and price range you
> are looking for. 24x1/10, 8x10/25 and 2x100G with 300G total capacity.
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> *On Behalf Of *Colton
> Conor
> *Sent:* Thursday, 27 May 2021 4:39 am
> *To:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs
>
>
>
>
>
> We have used Juniper's ACX line primarily, but there is a big gap in their
> product line. The ACX2200 has only two 10G ports. The next jump up from
> there is the ACX710 with 24 10G ports. They have nothing in between that
> has 4-12 10G ports. Not to mention, Juniper is very proud price wise. We
> are looking for cost efficient 10G NIDs with at least 4 10G ports on them
> and aggregation boxes with at least 12 10G ports on them with 25g/100G
> uplinks.
>

7210-sas-s or 7210-sas-sx is the low cost 24/48x1 4x10G option. These are very affordable and reliable MPLS transport devices. You’ll need to contact your local Nokia rep for pricing.



regards



From: Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2021 5:03 am
To: Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz>
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs



Tony,



Thanks, I wasn't aware of this model. This would compete with the ACX710 based on the specs (actually have a bit more ports). I guess I will have to reach out, but price wise where does this box come in?



What is Nokia's low cost NID that has at least 4 10G ports?



On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:49 AM Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz <mailto:tony@wicks.co.nz> > wrote:

The Nokia 7250-ixr-e covers exactly the port density and price range you are looking for. 24x1/10, 8x10/25 and 2x100G with 300G total capacity.



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org <mailto:wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> > On Behalf Of Colton Conor
Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2021 4:39 am
To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> >
Subject: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs





We have used Juniper's ACX line primarily, but there is a big gap in their product line. The ACX2200 has only two 10G ports. The next jump up from there is the ACX710 with 24 10G ports. They have nothing in between that has 4-12 10G ports. Not to mention, Juniper is very proud price wise. We are looking for cost efficient 10G NIDs with at least 4 10G ports on them and aggregation boxes with at least 12 10G ports on them with 25g/100G uplinks.

On 5/26/21 12:39 PM, Colton Conor wrote:
> Ciena seems to have multiple options available with Segment Routing,
> MPLS, and streaming telemetry support. I am probably most interested
> in what Ciena has to offer. Has anyone deployed the 3000 or 5000
> product line of Ciena? How does it compare to Juniper? The Ciena 3924
> is sub $1000 for example, and has 4 10G ports on it.

I've used the Ciena 3000 series switches as NIDs a fair bit and have no
real complaints about them aside from TAC being a bit loathe to give out
new versions of SAOS even when the version you've got deployed is going
EOL.  I've not used the MPLS functionality mostly because it's a pricey
software license add-on and I can get by without, but the MEF and
associated carrier-oriented Ethernet functionality seems to be pretty
much top notch in terms of feature set, stability, and configurability. 
I mostly use the 3928 though partially because the 3924 is new enough it
didn't make it into my standard build-out BOM.  The 3928 does also have
redundant PSU (fixed, but there are two) if that matters to you.  At
sub-$1000, the 3924 is a good deal in comparison if it'll do what you need.

If you've never used them, you might find the config language a bit
annoying in that it's more Yoda syntax than Cisco, but it's also more
consistent than Cisco (what isn't?), so it's got that going for it. 
Documentation is alright.  TAC is responsive to inquiries.

--
Brandon Martin

Second vote for the Nokia 7200 line, their price points are hard to beat.
The 7250 was originally designed (per the Nokia reps I've talked to) to be
a data center switch, but I've seen more than one MSO deploy them in the
field to great effect. They also make fantastic satellite boxes for their
7750 chassis. The 7210 is definitely older, but is a fantastic little MPLS
PE router.

SRoS is also easy to pickup, considering it was written by ex-Juniper and
Cisco employees (TiMetra/TiMos if I recall correctly?)

- Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com


On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 7:10 AM Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net>
wrote:

> On 5/26/21 12:39 PM, Colton Conor wrote:
> > Ciena seems to have multiple options available with Segment Routing,
> > MPLS, and streaming telemetry support. I am probably most interested
> > in what Ciena has to offer. Has anyone deployed the 3000 or 5000
> > product line of Ciena? How does it compare to Juniper? The Ciena 3924
> > is sub $1000 for example, and has 4 10G ports on it.
>
> I've used the Ciena 3000 series switches as NIDs a fair bit and have no
> real complaints about them aside from TAC being a bit loathe to give out
> new versions of SAOS even when the version you've got deployed is going
> EOL. I've not used the MPLS functionality mostly because it's a pricey
> software license add-on and I can get by without, but the MEF and
> associated carrier-oriented Ethernet functionality seems to be pretty
> much top notch in terms of feature set, stability, and configurability.
> I mostly use the 3928 though partially because the 3924 is new enough it
> didn't make it into my standard build-out BOM. The 3928 does also have
> redundant PSU (fixed, but there are two) if that matters to you. At
> sub-$1000, the 3924 is a good deal in comparison if it'll do what you need.
>
> If you've never used them, you might find the config language a bit
> annoying in that it's more Yoda syntax than Cisco, but it's also more
> consistent than Cisco (what isn't?), so it's got that going for it.
> Documentation is alright. TAC is responsive to inquiries.
>
> --
> Brandon Martin
>
>

I've been deploying the 7210 SAS S and Sx for a while now as MPLS PEs.
I haven't had any major issues. Mixes well with our existing Juniper
infrastructure.
--ryan

On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 6:26 AM Thomas Scott <mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Second vote for the Nokia 7200 line, their price points are hard to beat. The 7250 was originally designed (per the Nokia reps I've talked to) to be a data center switch, but I've seen more than one MSO deploy them in the field to great effect. They also make fantastic satellite boxes for their 7750 chassis. The 7210 is definitely older, but is a fantastic little MPLS PE router.
>
> SRoS is also easy to pickup, considering it was written by ex-Juniper and Cisco employees (TiMetra/TiMos if I recall correctly?)
>
> - Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com
>
>
> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 7:10 AM Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/26/21 12:39 PM, Colton Conor wrote:
>> > Ciena seems to have multiple options available with Segment Routing,
>> > MPLS, and streaming telemetry support. I am probably most interested
>> > in what Ciena has to offer. Has anyone deployed the 3000 or 5000
>> > product line of Ciena? How does it compare to Juniper? The Ciena 3924
>> > is sub $1000 for example, and has 4 10G ports on it.
>>
>> I've used the Ciena 3000 series switches as NIDs a fair bit and have no
>> real complaints about them aside from TAC being a bit loathe to give out
>> new versions of SAOS even when the version you've got deployed is going
>> EOL. I've not used the MPLS functionality mostly because it's a pricey
>> software license add-on and I can get by without, but the MEF and
>> associated carrier-oriented Ethernet functionality seems to be pretty
>> much top notch in terms of feature set, stability, and configurability.
>> I mostly use the 3928 though partially because the 3924 is new enough it
>> didn't make it into my standard build-out BOM. The 3928 does also have
>> redundant PSU (fixed, but there are two) if that matters to you. At
>> sub-$1000, the 3924 is a good deal in comparison if it'll do what you need.
>>
>> If you've never used them, you might find the config language a bit
>> annoying in that it's more Yoda syntax than Cisco, but it's also more
>> consistent than Cisco (what isn't?), so it's got that going for it.
>> Documentation is alright. TAC is responsive to inquiries.
>>
>> --
>> Brandon Martin
>>

I am going to have to reach out to Nokia and talk to them about their
products then. In the past when I have talked to Nokia their products have
a low upfront cost, but then they license you to death and were worse than
Cisco from what I remember.

On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 8:27 AM Thomas Scott <mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Second vote for the Nokia 7200 line, their price points are hard to beat.
> The 7250 was originally designed (per the Nokia reps I've talked to) to be
> a data center switch, but I've seen more than one MSO deploy them in the
> field to great effect. They also make fantastic satellite boxes for their
> 7750 chassis. The 7210 is definitely older, but is a fantastic little MPLS
> PE router.
>
> SRoS is also easy to pickup, considering it was written by ex-Juniper and
> Cisco employees (TiMetra/TiMos if I recall correctly?)
>
> - Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com
>
>
> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 7:10 AM Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 5/26/21 12:39 PM, Colton Conor wrote:
>> > Ciena seems to have multiple options available with Segment Routing,
>> > MPLS, and streaming telemetry support. I am probably most interested
>> > in what Ciena has to offer. Has anyone deployed the 3000 or 5000
>> > product line of Ciena? How does it compare to Juniper? The Ciena 3924
>> > is sub $1000 for example, and has 4 10G ports on it.
>>
>> I've used the Ciena 3000 series switches as NIDs a fair bit and have no
>> real complaints about them aside from TAC being a bit loathe to give out
>> new versions of SAOS even when the version you've got deployed is going
>> EOL. I've not used the MPLS functionality mostly because it's a pricey
>> software license add-on and I can get by without, but the MEF and
>> associated carrier-oriented Ethernet functionality seems to be pretty
>> much top notch in terms of feature set, stability, and configurability.
>> I mostly use the 3928 though partially because the 3924 is new enough it
>> didn't make it into my standard build-out BOM. The 3928 does also have
>> redundant PSU (fixed, but there are two) if that matters to you. At
>> sub-$1000, the 3924 is a good deal in comparison if it'll do what you
>> need.
>>
>> If you've never used them, you might find the config language a bit
>> annoying in that it's more Yoda syntax than Cisco, but it's also more
>> consistent than Cisco (what isn't?), so it's got that going for it.
>> Documentation is alright. TAC is responsive to inquiries.
>>
>> --
>> Brandon Martin
>>
>>

Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services? I mean they run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SID’s ?? I didn’t know that. I may look at them in the future then. I thought Ciena just did some sort of static mpls-tp or something…



We use Accedian as NID’s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA stuff)…and uplink those into our network at (yester-year, Cisco ME3600’s and ASR9000’s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204



-Aaron

The Accedian boxes are nice, as long as you remember they're not switches or routers. We've used them for specific use cases, but have to remember that there's things you just can't do on them. Though things may have changed on them since we used them.



-----Original Message-----
From: aaron1@gvtc.com
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 1:31pm
To: "'Colton Conor'" <colton.conor@gmail.com>, "'NANOG'" <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: RE: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs




Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services? I mean they run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SID’s ?? I didn’t know that. I may look at them in the future then. I thought Ciena just did some sort of static mpls-tp or something…

We use Accedian as NID’s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA stuff)…and uplink those into our network at (yester-year, Cisco ME3600’s and ASR9000’s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204

-Aaron

At a few sites of mine, I’ve seen Cisco NCS 520 devices for local in-rack deployments, and NCS 540’s for aggregation and extension handoffs. Looking at their datasheets real fast, MPLS + EVPN support come in on the 540 series.



Ryan



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Shawn L via NANOG
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 11:50 AM
To: aaron1@gvtc.com
Cc: 'NANOG' <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: RE: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs



The Accedian boxes are nice, as long as you remember they're not switches or routers. We've used them for specific use cases, but have to remember that there's things you just can't do on them. Though things may have changed on them since we used them.







-----Original Message-----
From: aaron1@gvtc.com <mailto:aaron1@gvtc.com>
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 1:31pm
To: "'Colton Conor'" <colton.conor@gmail.com <mailto:colton.conor@gmail.com> >, "'NANOG'" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> >
Subject: RE: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs

Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services? I mean they run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SID’s ?? I didn’t know that. I may look at them in the future then. I thought Ciena just did some sort of static mpls-tp or something…



We use Accedian as NID’s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA stuff)…and uplink those into our network at (yester-year, Cisco ME3600’s and ASR9000’s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204



-Aaron

Yeah, good point Shawn, I’ve had guys ask “where is the mac table?” in the accedian, ha. Yeah it’s very point to point’ish… you tell a port what vlan to expect, and then what port to send that out. Very rigid like that.



Yeah Ryan, and as I understand it, the NCS540 has the sweet XR OS too



-aaron

Yes, I was surprised as you that they have these routing features. I was
also surprised they had multiple boxes that compete with
aggregation devices like the ACX5048. The question is how good is Ciena's
MPLS, switching, and routing stack compared to the established players of
Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia? Ciena is no small company, so I think they would
have the resources to make it happen.


On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:32 PM <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:

> Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services? I mean they
> run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SID’s ?? I didn’t know that. I
> may look at them in the future then. I thought Ciena just did some sort of
> static mpls-tp or something…
>
>
>
> We use Accedian as NID’s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA stuff)…and
> uplink those into our network at (yester-year, Cisco ME3600’s and
> ASR9000’s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204
>
>
>
> -Aaron
>
>
>

Ciena was chosen by AT&T to deliver much of their enterprise fiber in MTOBs and such. Unsure if they run MPLS but it looks like it from the physical topology.

Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC
CEO
lb@6by7.net
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.”

FCC License KJ6FJJ

Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.

> On May 28, 2021, at 3:46 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Yes, I was surprised as you that they have these routing features. I was also surprised they had multiple boxes that compete with aggregation devices like the ACX5048. The question is how good is Ciena's MPLS, switching, and routing stack compared to the established players of Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia? Ciena is no small company, so I think they would have the resources to make it happen.
>
>
>> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:32 PM <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:
>> Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services? I mean they run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SID’s ?? I didn’t know that. I may look at them in the future then. I thought Ciena just did some sort of static mpls-tp or something…
>>
>>
>>
>> We use Accedian as NID’s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA stuff)…and uplink those into our network at (yester-year, Cisco ME3600’s and ASR9000’s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204
>>
>>
>>
>> -Aaron
>>
>>

We ran a medium sized mpls network using ciena 3900 and 5000 series boxes
on our microwave network.

Nothing but problems, the mpls code was just not mature enough and our
radio network had the boxes falling apart at the seams as storms rolled
through. At that time they didn't support FRR or proper CSPF so everything
had to be manually engineered active standby LSPs. Not sure if things have
changed now. These boxes have Nortel vintage and they seemed best delloyed
using PBB TE as it was mature.

As an NID though they are not a bad option but not in core or aggregation IMHO.


On 29 May 2021 08:49:51 Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I was surprised as you that they have these routing features. I was
> also surprised they had multiple boxes that compete with aggregation
> devices like the ACX5048. The question is how good is Ciena's MPLS,
> switching, and routing stack compared to the established players of
> Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia? Ciena is no small company, so I think they would
> have the resources to make it happen.
>
>
> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:32 PM <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:
> Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services? I mean they
> run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SID’s ?? I didn’t know that. I
> may look at them in the future then. I thought Ciena just did some sort of
> static mpls-tp or something…
>
> We use Accedian as NID’s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA stuff)…and
> uplink those into our network at (yester-year, Cisco ME3600’s and
> ASR9000’s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204
>
> -Aaron

Patrick,

How long ago was this, and what code were they running?

What do you recommend for aggregation then?

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 9:17 PM Patrick Cole <z@amused.net> wrote:

>
> We ran a medium sized mpls network using ciena 3900 and 5000 series boxes
> on our microwave network.
>
> Nothing but problems, the mpls code was just not mature enough and our
> radio network had the boxes falling apart at the seams as storms rolled
> through. At that time they didn't support FRR or proper CSPF so everything
> had to be manually engineered active standby LSPs. Not sure if things have
> changed now. These boxes have Nortel vintage and they seemed best delloyed
> using PBB TE as it was mature.
>
> As an NID though they are not a bad option but not in core or aggregation
> IMHO.
>
> On 29 May 2021 08:49:51 Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I was surprised as you that they have these routing features. I was
>> also surprised they had multiple boxes that compete with
>> aggregation devices like the ACX5048. The question is how good is Ciena's
>> MPLS, switching, and routing stack compared to the established players of
>> Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia? Ciena is no small company, so I think they would
>> have the resources to make it happen.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:32 PM <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services? I mean they
>>> run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SID’s ?? I didn’t know that. I
>>> may look at them in the future then. I thought Ciena just did some sort of
>>> static mpls-tp or something…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We use Accedian as NID’s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA stuff)…and
>>> uplink those into our network at (yester-year, Cisco ME3600’s and
>>> ASR9000’s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Colton,

This was 6+ years ago, SAOS 6.14, so I don't know it might be better now.

We changed to Cisco ASR920 and it was a night and day difference - we now have
90ish ASR920s in production but are migrating toward the NCS540X.

Patrick

Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:13:13AM -0500, Colton Conor wrote:


> Patrick,
> How long ago was this, and what code were they running?
> What do you recommend for aggregation then?
> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 9:17 PM Patrick Cole <z@amused.net> wrote:
>
> We ran a medium sized mpls network using ciena 3900 and 5000 series
> boxes on our microwave network.
> Nothing but problems, the mpls code was just not mature enough and our
> radio network had the boxes falling apart at the seams as storms rolled
> through.  At that time they didn't support FRR or proper CSPF so
> everything had to be manually engineered active standby LSPs. Not sure
> if things have changed now. These boxes have Nortel vintage and they
> seemed best delloyed using PBB TE as it was mature. 
> As an NID though they are not a bad option but not in core or
> aggregation IMHO. 
>
> On 29 May 2021 08:49:51 Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, I was surprised as you that they have these routing features. I
> was also surprised they had multiple boxes that compete with
> aggregation devices like the ACX5048. The question is how good is
> Ciena's MPLS, switching, and routing stack compared to the established
> players of Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia? Ciena is no small company, so I
> think they would have the resources to make it happen.
> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:32 PM <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:
>
> Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services?  I mean
> they run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SID?**s ??  I
> didn?**t know that.  I may look at them in the future then.  I
> thought Ciena just did some sort of static mpls-tp or something?*?
>
>  
>
> We use Accedian as NID?**s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA
> stuff)?*?and uplink those into our network at (yester-year, Cisco
> ME3600?**s and ASR9000?**s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204
>
>  
>
> -Aaron
>
>  

--
Patrick Cole <patrick.cole@spirit.com.au>
Chief Engineer
Spirit Technology Solutions
19-25 Raglan St, South Melbourne VIC 3205
Desk: 0385541391
Mobile: 0410626630

On 5/29/21 00:46, Colton Conor wrote:

> Yes, I was surprised as you that they have these routing features. I
> was also surprised they had multiple boxes that compete with
> aggregation devices like the ACX5048. The question is how good is
> Ciena's MPLS, switching, and routing stack compared to the established
> players of Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia? Ciena is no small company, so I
> think they would have the resources to make it happen.

One of our last mile partners started their Metro-E network off of
Ciena, years back. As it has grown, it has become unwieldy, and they are
now culling the level of intelligence from their Ciena platforms and
moving that over to Juniper MX's.

They will keep their Ciena devices, but relegate them to Access nodes,
with T-LDP.

They do intend to continue considering use of LDP/RSVP with Ciena, but
indicated that they will be looking for stable code that has plenty of
bugs fixed, from their experience.

This is a fairly large network here in South Africa, which has been
running Ciena for their core and access Metro-E infrastructure for over
6 years now. From what they shared with us (in an effort to explain
recent months of downtime), I'd approach with caution.

Mark.

On 5/29/21 04:17, Patrick Cole wrote:

>
> We ran a medium sized mpls network using ciena 3900 and 5000 series
> boxes on our microwave network.
>
> Nothing but problems, the mpls code was just not mature enough and our
> radio network had the boxes falling apart at the seams as storms
> rolled through.  At that time they didn't support FRR or proper CSPF
> so everything had to be manually engineered active standby LSPs. Not
> sure if things have changed now. These boxes have Nortel vintage and
> they seemed best delloyed using PBB TE as it was mature.

Yep, same issues we heard from our last mile partner here in South Africa.

As a DWDM system, Ciena are great (we use them both on the dry and wet
side).

As a packet box, I have no experience, but this is likely due to
instinctive reasons :-).

Mark.

Extreme has excellent MEF implementations. I've never used their MPLS implementations, but it's definitely there on, I think, all their products. I only have the X620 model in my network, which may or may not work for you. Beware using any EXOS-based product (anything that starts with "X") unless you're already familiar with EXOS! I cannot emphasise this enough!
Extreme's other product lines come from Nortel/Avaya and Broadcom heritage, and also have good MEF implementations (and more-or-less-sane OSes). They have MPLS support, but again, no experience with it.
I can't give much advice on pricing as I get both edu & gov discounts, but they are competitive with Arista and Cisco when we go to RFP.

Also, Juniper's MX (and maybe PTX?) families support MEF if that's a hard requirement. I know some but not all EX switches have had both MEF and MPLS, too. Beware many EX models have pretty minimalist MPLS implementations (e.g. no VPLS). Agreed on their pricing, though, which is why I don't have any ????. But for 4x10G the MX104 is a very nice box - if you can afford it.

Lastly, have you seen https://www.mef.net/certify/technology-registry/ ?

-Adam

Adam Thompson
Consultant, Infrastructure Services
[1593169877849]
100 - 135 Innovation Drive
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
(204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
athompson@merlin.mb.ca<mailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca>
www.merlin.mb.ca<http://www.merlin.mb.ca/>

________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+athompson=merlin.mb.ca@nanog.org> on behalf of Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
Sent: May 26, 2021 11:39
To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs

For MPLS and MEF switches, I know Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia are commonly talked about on this list. However, I was wondering if anyone has evaluated other brands? We are not interested in looking at chinese based vendors, so ZTE and Huawei are not an option. Anyone else worth looking into?

We have used Juniper's ACX line primarily, but there is a big gap in their product line. The ACX2200 has only two 10G ports. The next jump up from there is the ACX710 with 24 10G ports. They have nothing in between that has 4-12 10G ports. Not to mention, Juniper is very proud price wise. We are looking for cost efficient 10G NIDs with at least 4 10G ports on them and aggregation boxes with at least 12 10G ports on them with 25g/100G uplinks.

Ciena seems to have multiple options available with Segment Routing, MPLS, and streaming telemetry support. I am probably most interested in what Ciena has to offer. Has anyone deployed the 3000 or 5000 product line of Ciena? How does it compare to Juniper? The Ciena 3924 is sub $1000 for example, and has 4 10G ports on it.

Adva has quite a few options as well, but I don't think their routing stack is as strong as Ciena's.

Tejas was an unknown player to me, but they seem to have a couple of options that fit the bill. Price wise, I have heard the run circles around everyone.

RAD has some options, but their pricing looks much higher than Ciena.

Accedian looked interesting, but it seems they don't make aggregation switches, only NIDs.

ECI Telecom / Ribbon seems to have some options, but I have not talked to them.

What does Nokia and Cisco have in this space, and price wise is it going to compare to these less known vendors?

Patrick,

Yes, I would say that was quite some time ago. From my most recent quotes
from Ciena, they have version 6, version 8, and version 10 products now. I
wonder if they have improved (I would hope) over the years.

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 10:12 PM Patrick Cole <z@amused.net> wrote:

> Colton,
>
> This was 6+ years ago, SAOS 6.14, so I don't know it might be better now.
>
> We changed to Cisco ASR920 and it was a night and day difference - we now
> have
> 90ish ASR920s in production but are migrating toward the NCS540X.
>
> Patrick
>
> Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:13:13AM -0500, Colton Conor wrote:
>
>
> > Patrick,
> > How long ago was this, and what code were they running?
> > What do you recommend for aggregation then?
> > On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 9:17 PM Patrick Cole <z@amused.net> wrote:
> >
> > We ran a medium sized mpls network using ciena 3900 and 5000 series
> > boxes on our microwave network.
> > Nothing but problems, the mpls code was just not mature enough and
> our
> > radio network had the boxes falling apart at the seams as storms
> rolled
> > through. At that time they didn't support FRR or proper CSPF so
> > everything had to be manually engineered active standby LSPs. Not
> sure
> > if things have changed now. These boxes have Nortel vintage and they
> > seemed best delloyed using PBB TE as it was mature.
> > As an NID though they are not a bad option but not in core or
> > aggregation IMHO.
> >
> > On 29 May 2021 08:49:51 Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I was surprised as you that they have these routing
> features. I
> > was also surprised they had multiple boxes that compete with
> > aggregation devices like the ACX5048. The question is how good is
> > Ciena's MPLS, switching, and routing stack compared to the
> established
> > players of Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia? Ciena is no small company,
> so I
> > think they would have the resources to make it happen.
> > On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:32 PM <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:
> >
> > Wow, ciena has the means to implement SR and MPLS services? I
> mean
> > they run the underlying LS IGP to signal those SIDâ**s ?? I
> > didnâ**t know that. I may look at them in the future then. I
> > thought Ciena just did some sort of static mpls-tp or
> somethingâ*¦
> >
> >
> >
> > We use Accedian as NIDâ**s with SkyLight director for PAA (SLA
> > stuff)â*¦and uplink those into our network at (yester-year,
> Cisco
> > ME3600â**s and ASR9000â**s), but now, ACX5048 and MX204
> >
> >
> >
> > -Aaron
> >
> >
>
> --
> Patrick Cole <patrick.cole@spirit.com.au>
> Chief Engineer
> Spirit Technology Solutions
> 19-25 Raglan St, South Melbourne VIC 3205
> Desk: 0385541391
> Mobile: 0410626630
>

Adam.

When you say "Beware using any EXOS-based product (anything that starts
with "X") unless you're already familiar with EXOS!" Are you saying stay
away from this line completely, or what do you mean by this statement. I
have heard good things about Extreme for deploying service provider G.8032
and MPLS functions.

Yes, I was aware of https://www.mef.net/certify/technology-registry/ and
have gone through pretty much every vendor looking at their solutions.
Extreme for example is not listed at all, so I guess they didn't want to
pay those fees! There are quite a few Chinese vendors we can't use.


On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 12:44 PM Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.ca>
wrote:

> Extreme has excellent MEF implementations. I've never used their MPLS
> implementations, but it's definitely there on, I think, all their
> products. I only have the X620 model in my network, which may or may not
> work for you. Beware using any EXOS-based product (anything that starts
> with "X") unless you're already familiar with EXOS! I cannot emphasise
> this enough!
> Extreme's other product lines come from Nortel/Avaya and Broadcom
> heritage, and also have good MEF implementations (and more-or-less-sane
> OSes). They have MPLS support, but again, no experience with it.
> I can't give much advice on pricing as I get both edu & gov discounts, but
> they are competitive with Arista and Cisco when we go to RFP.
>
> Also, Juniper's MX (and maybe PTX?) families support MEF if that's a hard
> requirement. I know *some* but not all EX switches have had both MEF and
> MPLS, too. Beware many EX models have pretty minimalist MPLS
> implementations (e.g. no VPLS). Agreed on their pricing, though, which is
> why I don't have any ????. But for 4x10G the MX104 is a very nice box - if
> you can afford it.
>
> Lastly, have you seen https://www.mef.net/certify/technology-registry/ ?
>
> -Adam
>
> *Adam Thompson*
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> [image: 1593169877849]
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> athompson@merlin.mb.ca
> www.merlin.mb.ca
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+athompson=merlin.mb.ca@nanog.org> on behalf
> of Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* May 26, 2021 11:39
> *To:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs
>
> For MPLS and MEF switches, I know Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia are commonly
> talked about on this list. However, I was wondering if anyone has
> evaluated other brands? We are not interested in looking at chinese based
> vendors, so ZTE and Huawei are not an option. Anyone else worth looking
> into?
>
> We have used Juniper's ACX line primarily, but there is a big gap in their
> product line. The ACX2200 has only two 10G ports. The next jump up from
> there is the ACX710 with 24 10G ports. They have nothing in between that
> has 4-12 10G ports. Not to mention, Juniper is very proud price wise. We
> are looking for cost efficient 10G NIDs with at least 4 10G ports on them
> and aggregation boxes with at least 12 10G ports on them with 25g/100G
> uplinks.
>
> Ciena seems to have multiple options available with Segment Routing, MPLS,
> and streaming telemetry support. I am probably most interested in
> what Ciena has to offer. Has anyone deployed the 3000 or 5000 product line
> of Ciena? How does it compare to Juniper? The Ciena 3924 is sub $1000 for
> example, and has 4 10G ports on it.
>
> Adva has quite a few options as well, but I don't think their routing
> stack is as strong as Ciena's.
>
> Tejas was an unknown player to me, but they seem to have a couple of
> options that fit the bill. Price wise, I have heard the run circles around
> everyone.
>
> RAD has some options, but their pricing looks much higher than Ciena.
>
> Accedian looked interesting, but it seems they don't make aggregation
> switches, only NIDs.
>
> ECI Telecom / Ribbon seems to have some options, but I have not talked to
> them.
>
> What does Nokia and Cisco have in this space, and price wise is it going
> to compare to these less known vendors?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

EXOS is a perfectly good OS that bears absolutely no resemblance to anything else you've ever used in your career. If you start from scratch without training courses, you're looking at wasting 6 months (maybe more) just learning the OS well enough to figure out how to configure your desired deployment. Then you get to the usual month or so of fine-tuning required that every product needs.

Given how many companies will pay for training nowadays, it's a relevant concern IMHO.

Now that I'm used to EXOS, I like it. But I would never recommend an EXOS newbie start a project with a product that runs EXOS, without some jump-start training. It really is/was that painful. It's like giving a 100% Windows admin a UNIX box to get the new service running on, with no training. (Or vice-versa.)

NOTE: Extreme's goal (supposedly targeting 2021) was to ship one common hardware platform that could run any of their 3 OSes. I don't know if they're achieved it, but generally speaking, for any EXOS box, there's two more products, one running the Nortel/Avaya OS and one IronWare (Foundry/Broadcom), both of which are fairly "normal".

-Adam

Adam Thompson
Consultant, Infrastructure Services
[1593169877849]
100 - 135 Innovation Drive
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
(204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
athompson@merlin.mb.ca<mailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca>
www.merlin.mb.ca<http://www.merlin.mb.ca/>

________________________________
From: Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
Sent: May 31, 2021 15:30
To: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.ca>
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs

Adam.

When you say "Beware using any EXOS-based product (anything that starts with "X") unless you're already familiar with EXOS!" Are you saying stay away from this line completely, or what do you mean by this statement. I have heard good things about Extreme for deploying service provider G.8032 and MPLS functions.

Yes, I was aware of https://www.mef.net/certify/technology-registry/ and have gone through pretty much every vendor looking at their solutions. Extreme for example is not listed at all, so I guess they didn't want to pay those fees! There are quite a few Chinese vendors we can't use.


On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 12:44 PM Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.ca<mailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca>> wrote:
Extreme has excellent MEF implementations. I've never used their MPLS implementations, but it's definitely there on, I think, all their products. I only have the X620 model in my network, which may or may not work for you. Beware using any EXOS-based product (anything that starts with "X") unless you're already familiar with EXOS! I cannot emphasise this enough!
Extreme's other product lines come from Nortel/Avaya and Broadcom heritage, and also have good MEF implementations (and more-or-less-sane OSes). They have MPLS support, but again, no experience with it.
I can't give much advice on pricing as I get both edu & gov discounts, but they are competitive with Arista and Cisco when we go to RFP.

Also, Juniper's MX (and maybe PTX?) families support MEF if that's a hard requirement. I know some but not all EX switches have had both MEF and MPLS, too. Beware many EX models have pretty minimalist MPLS implementations (e.g. no VPLS). Agreed on their pricing, though, which is why I don't have any ????. But for 4x10G the MX104 is a very nice box - if you can afford it.

Lastly, have you seen https://www.mef.net/certify/technology-registry/ ?

-Adam


Adam Thompson
Consultant, Infrastructure Services
[1593169877849]
100 - 135 Innovation Drive
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
(204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
athompson@merlin.mb.ca<mailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca>
www.merlin.mb.ca<http://www.merlin.mb.ca/>

________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+athompson=merlin.mb.ca@nanog.org<mailto:merlin.mb.ca@nanog.org>> on behalf of Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com<mailto:colton.conor@gmail.com>>
Sent: May 26, 2021 11:39
To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs

For MPLS and MEF switches, I know Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia are commonly talked about on this list. However, I was wondering if anyone has evaluated other brands? We are not interested in looking at chinese based vendors, so ZTE and Huawei are not an option. Anyone else worth looking into?

We have used Juniper's ACX line primarily, but there is a big gap in their product line. The ACX2200 has only two 10G ports. The next jump up from there is the ACX710 with 24 10G ports. They have nothing in between that has 4-12 10G ports. Not to mention, Juniper is very proud price wise. We are looking for cost efficient 10G NIDs with at least 4 10G ports on them and aggregation boxes with at least 12 10G ports on them with 25g/100G uplinks.

Ciena seems to have multiple options available with Segment Routing, MPLS, and streaming telemetry support. I am probably most interested in what Ciena has to offer. Has anyone deployed the 3000 or 5000 product line of Ciena? How does it compare to Juniper? The Ciena 3924 is sub $1000 for example, and has 4 10G ports on it.

Adva has quite a few options as well, but I don't think their routing stack is as strong as Ciena's.

Tejas was an unknown player to me, but they seem to have a couple of options that fit the bill. Price wise, I have heard the run circles around everyone.

RAD has some options, but their pricing looks much higher than Ciena.

Accedian looked interesting, but it seems they don't make aggregation switches, only NIDs.

ECI Telecom / Ribbon seems to have some options, but I have not talked to them.

What does Nokia and Cisco have in this space, and price wise is it going to compare to these less known vendors?

It's not 100 percent about cost, but cost is a big concern.

My minimum requirement is a box that has 4 10G ports, and supports G.8032.
MPLS / Segment routing would be nice, but not required.

So far, I have yet to find anything comparable to Ciena' 3924. It's got 4
10G SFP+, and then 4 1G SFP's. Hardware costs about $550 new, and their
mandatory base software plus the 10G licenses add about $400, bringing the
total cost to $950. Then, they have an optional MPLS / Segment Routing
advanced layer 3 feature set, costing at least another $200, bringing the
total cost to $1150.

Anyone know something close in pricing to compare to? Note this is general
Ciena pricing, nothing special.

Mikrotik has a couple of options below this $1000 price point, but that
would not work.





On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 4:03 PM Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.ca>
wrote:

> EXOS is a perfectly good OS that bears absolutely *no* resemblance to
> anything else you've ever used in your career. If you start from scratch
> without training courses, you're looking at wasting 6 months (maybe more)
> just learning the OS well enough to figure out how to configure your
> desired deployment. Then you get to the usual month or so of fine-tuning
> required that every product needs.
>
> Given how many companies will pay for training nowadays, it's a relevant
> concern IMHO.
>
> Now that I'm used to EXOS, I like it. But I would never recommend an EXOS
> newbie start a project with a product that runs EXOS, without some
> jump-start training. It really is/was that painful. It's like giving a
> 100% Windows admin a UNIX box to get the new service running on, with no
> training. (Or vice-versa.)
>
> NOTE: Extreme's goal (supposedly targeting 2021) was to ship one common
> hardware platform that could run any of their 3 OSes. I don't know if
> they're achieved it, but generally speaking, for any EXOS box, there's
> two more products, one running the Nortel/Avaya OS and one IronWare
> (Foundry/Broadcom), both of which are fairly "normal".
>
> -Adam
>
> *Adam Thompson*
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> [image: 1593169877849]
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> athompson@merlin.mb.ca
> www.merlin.mb.ca
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* May 31, 2021 15:30
> *To:* Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.ca>
> *Cc:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* Re: MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs
>
> Adam.
>
> When you say "Beware using any EXOS-based product (anything that starts
> with "X") unless you're already familiar with EXOS!" Are you saying stay
> away from this line completely, or what do you mean by this statement. I
> have heard good things about Extreme for deploying service provider G.8032
> and MPLS functions.
>
> Yes, I was aware of https://www.mef.net/certify/technology-registry/ and
> have gone through pretty much every vendor looking at their solutions.
> Extreme for example is not listed at all, so I guess they didn't want to
> pay those fees! There are quite a few Chinese vendors we can't use.
>
>
> On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 12:44 PM Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.ca>
> wrote:
>
> Extreme has excellent MEF implementations. I've never used their MPLS
> implementations, but it's definitely there on, I think, all their
> products. I only have the X620 model in my network, which may or may not
> work for you. Beware using any EXOS-based product (anything that starts
> with "X") unless you're already familiar with EXOS! I cannot emphasise
> this enough!
> Extreme's other product lines come from Nortel/Avaya and Broadcom
> heritage, and also have good MEF implementations (and more-or-less-sane
> OSes). They have MPLS support, but again, no experience with it.
> I can't give much advice on pricing as I get both edu & gov discounts, but
> they are competitive with Arista and Cisco when we go to RFP.
>
> Also, Juniper's MX (and maybe PTX?) families support MEF if that's a hard
> requirement. I know *some* but not all EX switches have had both MEF and
> MPLS, too. Beware many EX models have pretty minimalist MPLS
> implementations (e.g. no VPLS). Agreed on their pricing, though, which is
> why I don't have any ????. But for 4x10G the MX104 is a very nice box - if
> you can afford it.
>
> Lastly, have you seen https://www.mef.net/certify/technology-registry/ ?
>
> -Adam
>
> *Adam Thompson*
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> [image: 1593169877849]
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> athompson@merlin.mb.ca
> www.merlin.mb.ca
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+athompson=merlin.mb.ca@nanog.org> on behalf
> of Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* May 26, 2021 11:39
> *To:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* MPLS/MEF Switches and NIDs
>
> For MPLS and MEF switches, I know Juniper, Cisco, and Nokia are commonly
> talked about on this list. However, I was wondering if anyone has
> evaluated other brands? We are not interested in looking at chinese based
> vendors, so ZTE and Huawei are not an option. Anyone else worth looking
> into?
>
> We have used Juniper's ACX line primarily, but there is a big gap in their
> product line. The ACX2200 has only two 10G ports. The next jump up from
> there is the ACX710 with 24 10G ports. They have nothing in between that
> has 4-12 10G ports. Not to mention, Juniper is very proud price wise. We
> are looking for cost efficient 10G NIDs with at least 4 10G ports on them
> and aggregation boxes with at least 12 10G ports on them with 25g/100G
> uplinks.
>
> Ciena seems to have multiple options available with Segment Routing, MPLS,
> and streaming telemetry support. I am probably most interested in
> what Ciena has to offer. Has anyone deployed the 3000 or 5000 product line
> of Ciena? How does it compare to Juniper? The Ciena 3924 is sub $1000 for
> example, and has 4 10G ports on it.
>
> Adva has quite a few options as well, but I don't think their routing
> stack is as strong as Ciena's.
>
> Tejas was an unknown player to me, but they seem to have a couple of
> options that fit the bill. Price wise, I have heard the run circles around
> everyone.
>
> RAD has some options, but their pricing looks much higher than Ciena.
>
> Accedian looked interesting, but it seems they don't make aggregation
> switches, only NIDs.
>
> ECI Telecom / Ribbon seems to have some options, but I have not talked to
> them.
>
> What does Nokia and Cisco have in this space, and price wise is it going
> to compare to these less known vendors?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On 5/31/21 19:44, Adam Thompson wrote:
> But for 4x10G the MX104 is a very nice box - if you can afford it.

If you don't need a full BGP table, sure :-).

Mark.