Mailing List Archive

Ha! "Surprised"? Well, offering OOB for a reasonable price could be a
differentiator for the savvy colo providers, but bean counters say: "Huh? If
customer X wants OOB, they can pay ~$300/mo for a cross-connect". ~$300/mo
might seem an exaggeration, but not for some of us. Even ~$150/mo is
ridiculous.



If 4G-ish mobile service won't work, expect to pay. ;-(



-Joel



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jstalder=ieee.org@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Matthew
Crocker
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 3:15 PM
To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1 Summer





I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I'm looking for some
low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently I have
Opengear boxes at each site with cell modems but they don't work too well.
I either need to replace them with new cell based devices or find a
wireless/ethernet bandwidth option. I only need a couple serial ports and
ethernet for when everything breaks.



I'm in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer



I'm surprised OOB bandwidth isn't a feature for colocation providers.



Thanks

Before getting rid of the cellular based OOB, look into some more detail
about exactly what LTE modems are in those. I've seen some remarkable
results from equipment using the 600/700 bands (tmobile, verizon) for
getting signal into deeply buried concrete structures. There's a lot of
different types and capabilities of cellular data modems on the market.




On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:15 PM Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com>
wrote:

>
>
> I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I’m looking for some
> low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently I have
> Opengear boxes at each site with cell modems but they don’t work too well.
> I either need to replace them with new cell based devices or find a
> wireless/ethernet bandwidth option. I only need a couple serial ports and
> ethernet for when everything breaks.
>
>
>
> I’m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer
>
>
>
> I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>

What SIM provider and modem are you using in those Opengears?
It’s been over a year but walked around 60 Hudson with LTE . I would
exhaust the modem , provider , antenna placement options

On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:12 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:

> Before getting rid of the cellular based OOB, look into some more detail
> about exactly what LTE modems are in those. I've seen some remarkable
> results from equipment using the 600/700 bands (tmobile, verizon) for
> getting signal into deeply buried concrete structures. There's a lot of
> different types and capabilities of cellular data modems on the market.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:15 PM Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I’m looking for
>> some low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently I
>> have Opengear boxes at each site with cell modems but they don’t work too
>> well. I either need to replace them with new cell based devices or find a
>> wireless/ethernet bandwidth option. I only need a couple serial ports and
>> ethernet for when everything breaks.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 at 01:18, Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com>
wrote:

I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I’m looking for some
> low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently
>
>
>
> I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.
>

That would surprise me too.

https://www.digitalrealty.com/connectivity/ip-bandwidth
https://www.markleygroup.com/cloud/network/out-of-band

--
++ytti

Give the Verizon Machine to Machine plan a try before you give up on the cellular.

--Pete
________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+pete=ots.utsystem.edu@nanog.org> on behalf of Saku Ytti <saku@ytti.fi>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 12:33 AM
To: Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com>
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1 Summer



On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 at 01:18, Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com<mailto:matthew@corp.crocker.com>> wrote:


I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I?m looking for some low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently



I?m surprised OOB bandwidth isn?t a feature for colocation providers.

That would surprise me too.

https://www.digitalrealty.com/connectivity/ip-bandwidth
https://www.markleygroup.com/cloud/network/out-of-band

--
++ytti

We use Raritan console devices in NJR2 and I couldn't be happier. They
allow you to have to connections. We have a VPN device that is connected to
our wan switches and then we have Verizon LTE as a backup. When we first
went with T-Mobile we had problems with the connectivity (see
https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2019-January/098723.html). We
then moved over to Verizon where the signal was strong but we had issues
with the MTU issues (see
https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2019-June/101576.html). I ended
up adding a rule to the raritan to lower the PDU and that allowed
connectivity via the cellular network. I used the cellular modem that
raritan recommended although I probably could have gone with something
cheaper like the MikroTik LtAP.



On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:14 PM Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com>
wrote:

>
>
> I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I’m looking for some
> low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently I have
> Opengear boxes at each site with cell modems but they don’t work too well.
> I either need to replace them with new cell based devices or find a
> wireless/ethernet bandwidth option. I only need a couple serial ports and
> ethernet for when everything breaks.
>
>
>
> I’m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer
>
>
>
> I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>

> On 15 Apr 2021, at 23:14, Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com> wrote:
>
> I’m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer
>
> I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.

In --dayJob we were a customer of 1 Summer. OOB was provided by Markley in the form of a couple of L3 circuits on SMF with some static IPs. I don’t recall the exact commercial relationship as I wasn’t in the company at the time it was negotiated but it was effectively supplied free of charge with the rack space. Cross-connects at 1 Summer are so damn expensive it’s impractical to take a feed from anybody else. That said, if you’re in the MMR then you probably have a lot more flexibility.

In other DCs we tended to either sub-lease rack space from a colo provider, as they could provide a feed from their adjacent network racks for very little cost, or we found a friendly network in the same suite to either take a cheap feed from or swap bandwidth with.

LTE reception in the majority of DCs is awful so I was never willing to trust it to work when needed.

Geez, I?ve been at 1 Summer for 6+ years, never new they offered this. I?ll have to check it out

Thanks

-Matt


From: Saku Ytti <saku@ytti.fi>
Date: Friday, April 16, 2021 at 1:34 AM
To: Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com>
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1 Summer
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Crocker. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.



On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 at 01:18, Matthew Crocker <matthew@corp.crocker.com<mailto:matthew@corp.crocker.com>> wrote:

I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I?m looking for some low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently

I?m surprised OOB bandwidth isn?t a feature for colocation providers.

That would surprise me too.

https://www.digitalrealty.com/connectivity/ip-bandwidth
https://www.markleygroup.com/cloud/network/out-of-band

--
++ytti

Someone has been spending time at Equinix.

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 12:01 PM <jstalder@ieee.org> wrote:

>
>
> Ha! “Surprised”? Well, offering OOB for a reasonable price could be a
> differentiator for the savvy colo providers, but bean counters say: “Huh?
> If customer X wants OOB, they can pay ~$300/mo for a cross-connect”.
> ~$300/mo might seem an exaggeration, but not for some of us. Even ~$150/mo
> is ridiculous.
>
>
>
> If 4G-ish mobile service won’t work, expect to pay. ;-(
>
>
>
> -Joel
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+jstalder=ieee.org@nanog.org> *On Behalf Of *Matthew
> Crocker
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 15, 2021 3:15 PM
> *To:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1 Summer
>
>
>
>
>
> I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I’m looking for some
> low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently I have
> Opengear boxes at each site with cell modems but they don’t work too well.
> I either need to replace them with new cell based devices or find a
> wireless/ethernet bandwidth option. I only need a couple serial ports and
> ethernet for when everything breaks.
>
>
>
> I’m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer
>
>
>
> I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>

I believe we were recently quoted a price of like $900/month (between cross-connect and monthly charge) for 10Mb OpenGear OOB access in a large Canadian Data Center. We passed. While I don’t disagree, you have to pay for these services. The cost far exceeds the value for what is provided in many cases.

Michael

From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+mcgurtym=ae.com@nanog.org> on behalf of "jstalder@ieee.org" <jstalder@ieee.org>
Date: Friday, April 16, 2021 at 12:03 PM
To: 'Matthew Crocker' <matthew@corp.crocker.com>, 'NANOG' <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL_MESSAGE] RE: OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1 Summer


Ha! “Surprised”? Well, offering OOB for a reasonable price could be a differentiator for the savvy colo providers, but bean counters say: “Huh? If customer X wants OOB, they can pay ~$300/mo for a cross-connect”. ~$300/mo might seem an exaggeration, but not for some of us. Even ~$150/mo is ridiculous.

If 4G-ish mobile service won’t work, expect to pay. ;-(

-Joel

From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jstalder=ieee.org@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Matthew Crocker
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 3:15 PM
To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1 Summer


I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I’m looking for some low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently I have Opengear boxes at each site with cell modems but they don’t work too well. I either need to replace them with new cell based devices or find a wireless/ethernet bandwidth option. I only need a couple serial ports and ethernet for when everything breaks.

I’m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer

I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.

Thanks

________________________________

This electronic message contains information from American Eagle Outfitters, Inc. that may be privileged and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy this message. Thank you.

> On 15 Apr 2021, at 23:29, <jstalder@ieee.org> <jstalder@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>
> Ha! “Surprised”? Well, offering OOB for a reasonable price could be a differentiator for the savvy colo providers, but bean counters say: “Huh? If customer X wants OOB, they can pay ~$300/mo for a cross-connect”. ~$300/mo might seem an exaggeration, but not for some of us. Even ~$150/mo is ridiculous.

$300/month would be a bargain at One Summer

For what it’s worth, I really like Markley. Everybody that works there is fantastically helpful and they don’t cut corners on their infrastructure. Only gripe is X-Connect pricing

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 12:20 PM Mike McGurty <McGurtyM@ae.com> wrote:

> I believe we were recently quoted a price of like $900/month (between
> cross-connect and monthly charge) for 10Mb OpenGear OOB access in a large
> Canadian Data Center. We passed. While I don’t disagree, you have to pay
> for these services. The cost far exceeds the value for what is provided in
> many cases.
>

I have often been pleasantly surprised by how often I can open a laptop in
a colo, see a list of SSIDs, figure out from the name who runs it, and ask
nicely if I can please attach an AP(/station) and OOB widget to their
network. I've basically always got the response of "Sure, as long as you
are only using it for OOB and don't try route traffic over it, no
worries....". Often the reply also includes a "... and, could we do the
same? You stand up an AP and we'll tunnel OOB through it".

Yes, many colo's frown upon/"ban" Wifi, but what they don't notice doesn't
hurt them... The Internet used to be built on people helping each other out
- let's see if we can recreate that....

W



>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From: *NANOG <nanog-bounces+mcgurtym=ae.com@nanog.org> on behalf of "
> jstalder@ieee.org" <jstalder@ieee.org>
> *Date: *Friday, April 16, 2021 at 12:03 PM
> *To: *'Matthew Crocker' <matthew@corp.crocker.com>, 'NANOG' <
> nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject: *[EXTERNAL_MESSAGE] RE: OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1
> Summer
>
>
>
>
>
> Ha! “Surprised”? Well, offering OOB for a reasonable price could be a
> differentiator for the savvy colo providers, but bean counters say: “Huh?
> If customer X wants OOB, they can pay ~$300/mo for a cross-connect”.
> ~$300/mo might seem an exaggeration, but not for some of us. Even ~$150/mo
> is ridiculous.
>
>
>
> If 4G-ish mobile service won’t work, expect to pay. ;-(
>
>
>
> -Joel
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+jstalder=ieee.org@nanog.org> *On Behalf Of *Matthew
> Crocker
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 15, 2021 3:15 PM
> *To:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1 Summer
>
>
>
>
>
> I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I’m looking for some
> low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently I have
> Opengear boxes at each site with cell modems but they don’t work too well.
> I either need to replace them with new cell based devices or find a
> wireless/ethernet bandwidth option. I only need a couple serial ports and
> ethernet for when everything breaks.
>
>
>
> I’m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer
>
>
>
> I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> This electronic message contains information from American Eagle
> Outfitters, Inc. that may be privileged and/or confidential. If you are not
> the intended recipient, any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the
> contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this email in
> error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy this message.
> Thank you.
>


--
The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his own making.
-- E. W. Dijkstra

On 4/16/21 1:33 AM, Saku Ytti wrote:
> https://www.markleygroup.com/cloud/network/out-of-band

Wow, this is an impressive offering. I wish more providers would do this.
--
Bryan Fields

727-409-1194 - Voice
http://bryanfields.net

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 1:08 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:

> On 4/16/21 1:33 AM, Saku Ytti wrote:
> > https://www.markleygroup.com/cloud/network/out-of-band
>
> Wow, this is an impressive offering. I wish more providers would do this.
>

+manylots. It's always surprising to me how often companies (in all
industries) can be broken up into those that understand the value of
goodwill and those that instead nickel-and-dime.
My local Potbelly (sandwich ship) every now and then will just say "No
charge, this one's on us". This only happens around once every 30-40 times
I go in, but they loyalty that it has created means that I go there **way**
more often than I otherwise would. It also means that in the few times that
something goes wrong/I have a bad experience, I don't really care.

The additional profit that they've made from having me as a loyal customer
more than covers the cost of 1 free sammich every N.

In many ways Markley seems similar - they feel like they understand that
some things (like OOB) are annoying to deal with, and that the loyalty /
goodwill provided by being "nice" more than repays the cost of the service.
W




> --
> Bryan Fields
>
> 727-409-1194 - Voice
> http://bryanfields.net
>


--
The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his own making.
-- E. W. Dijkstra

On Apr 16, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 1:08 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
>> On 4/16/21 1:33 AM, Saku Ytti wrote:
> > https://www.markleygroup.com/cloud/network/out-of-band
>
> Wow, this is an impressive offering. I wish more providers would do this.
>
> +manylots. It's always surprising to me how often companies (in all industries) can be broken up into those that understand the value of goodwill and those that instead nickel-and-dime.
> My local Potbelly (sandwich ship) every now and then will just say "No charge, this one's on us". This only happens around once every 30-40 times I go in, but they loyalty that it has created means that I go there **way** more often than I otherwise would. It also means that in the few times that something goes wrong/I have a bad experience, I don't really care.
>
> The additional profit that they've made from having me as a loyal customer more than covers the cost of 1 free sammich every N.
>
> In many ways Markley seems similar - they feel like they understand that some things (like OOB) are annoying to deal with, and that the loyalty / goodwill provided by being "nice" more than repays the cost of the service.

As the person who created that product for Markley, I can tell you that is precisely what we were thinking.

It cost us nearly nothing, made customers stickier, generated good will, and created a chance to talk to them about cloud offerings or similar. The only “catch” is you need a fiber xconn. The thinking was it was barely more than a copper xconn for POTS yet you get gigabit instead of dialup, or you would have used fiber to another ISP anyway.

Every serious colo has enough bandwidth that 2 Mbps won’t be noticed, competent network engineers (one hopes), and free switch ports (or can get them cheap). Why don’t they do this? Perhaps someone in finance feels it can be “monetized”. I feel the monetization lowers adoption and kills the other benefits Warren mentions above - which are worth a hell of a lot more than the paltry sum they would get from billing a few customers.

--
TTFN,
patrick

PS: The guest SSID at Markley has no captive portal. It was a problem for customers who wanted to have their equipment get on the wifi to download images, etc, so we took it off.

We don’t advertise it, but we’ll do the same where we can, which is most POPs. The 2mbit waived commit is smart, clean. I like it!

Maybe a list for mutual OOB trades?

—L.B.

Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC
CEO
lb@6by7.net <mailto:lb@6by7.net>
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.”
FCC License KJ6FJJ



> On Apr 16, 2021, at 12:47 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net> wrote:
>
> On Apr 16, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net <mailto:warren@kumari.net>> wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 1:08 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
>>> On 4/16/21 1:33 AM, Saku Ytti wrote:
>>> https://www.markleygroup.com/cloud/network/out-of-band
>>
>> Wow, this is an impressive offering. I wish more providers would do this.
>>
>> +manylots. It's always surprising to me how often companies (in all industries) can be broken up into those that understand the value of goodwill and those that instead nickel-and-dime.
>> My local Potbelly (sandwich ship) every now and then will just say "No charge, this one's on us". This only happens around once every 30-40 times I go in, but they loyalty that it has created means that I go there **way** more often than I otherwise would. It also means that in the few times that something goes wrong/I have a bad experience, I don't really care.
>>
>> The additional profit that they've made from having me as a loyal customer more than covers the cost of 1 free sammich every N.
>>
>> In many ways Markley seems similar - they feel like they understand that some things (like OOB) are annoying to deal with, and that the loyalty / goodwill provided by being "nice" more than repays the cost of the service.
>
> As the person who created that product for Markley, I can tell you that is precisely what we were thinking.
>
> It cost us nearly nothing, made customers stickier, generated good will, and created a chance to talk to them about cloud offerings or similar. The only “catch” is you need a fiber xconn. The thinking was it was barely more than a copper xconn for POTS yet you get gigabit instead of dialup, or you would have used fiber to another ISP anyway.
>
> Every serious colo has enough bandwidth that 2 Mbps won’t be noticed, competent network engineers (one hopes), and free switch ports (or can get them cheap). Why don’t they do this? Perhaps someone in finance feels it can be “monetized”. I feel the monetization lowers adoption and kills the other benefits Warren mentions above - which are worth a hell of a lot more than the paltry sum they would get from billing a few customers.
>
> --
> TTFN,
> patrick
>
> PS: The guest SSID at Markley has no captive portal. It was a problem for customers who wanted to have their equipment get on the wifi to download images, etc, so we took it off.

On 4/15/21 6:14 PM, Matthew Crocker wrote:
> I?m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer
>


I'm in both locations as well. We have a 10MB static IP connection for
them and I think it's like $50/mo. Depends on how "out of band" you want
it to be.

I also think Markley @ 1 summer offers something similar.

--
inoc.net!rblayzor
XMPP: rblayzor.AT.inoc.net
PGP: https://pgp.inoc.net/rblayzor/

*nods* band support, where the directional antenna is pointing, etc.




cellmapper.com has a good map of tower locations, sector coverage, etc. If you have an Android device, you can contribute to the crowd-sourcing.




-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

----- Original Message -----

From: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com>
To: "Matthew Crocker" <matthew@corp.crocker.com>
Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 8:08:55 PM
Subject: Re: OOB management options @ 60 Hudson & 1 Summer



Before getting rid of the cellular based OOB, look into some more detail about exactly what LTE modems are in those. I've seen some remarkable results from equipment using the 600/700 bands (tmobile, verizon) for getting signal into deeply buried concrete structures. There's a lot of different types and capabilities of cellular data modems on the market.








On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:15 PM Matthew Crocker < matthew@corp.crocker.com > wrote:






I have routers in both 60 Hudson St & 1 Summer St and I’m looking for some low cost bandwidth options for out of band management. Currently I have Opengear boxes at each site with cell modems but they don’t work too well. I either need to replace them with new cell based devices or find a wireless/ethernet bandwidth option. I only need a couple serial ports and ethernet for when everything breaks.

I’m in DR space @ 60 Hudson and the Markeley MMR @ 1 Summer

I’m surprised OOB bandwidth isn’t a feature for colocation providers.

Thanks

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 at 19:53, Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE <
lb@6by7.net> wrote:

Maybe a list for mutual OOB trades?
>

I would advise against this, OPEX nightmare. Who will NOC call when it is
down? What will they say to the other end to identify the circuit? When
will it get fixed? If not, how to escalate?
Free OOB is too expensive for me.

--
++ytti