Mailing List Archive

cheap MPLS router recommendations
Hi folks,



I'm looking for recommendations on a cheap MPLS router (L3VPNs RSVP-TE and
BFD).

Around 60G throughput would do , heck even 30G.

Few 1/10G ports.

But netconf yang is almost a must.



You know something like asr920 or juniper equivalent, but something that
that is not EoS or EoL

Oh and something not from China (you know, bad PR).



Any pointers much appreciated.



adam
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
If cisco, I wouldn’t consider 920… I think NCS540 is better option.
XR based, feature rich and here are different models supporting different BW, different port density…
I think price/performance ratio is superb!

For better evaluation you should be more specific about scale, precise about required features…..

Disclaimer: cisco employee…..

Cheers
-j

From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jakuhorn=cisco.com@nanog.org> on behalf of "adamv0025@netconsultings.com" <adamv0025@netconsultings.com>
Date: Friday, 16 October 2020 at 22:59
To: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: cheap MPLS router recommendations

Hi folks,

I’m looking for recommendations on a cheap MPLS router (L3VPNs RSVP-TE and BFD).
Around 60G throughput would do , heck even 30G.
Few 1/10G ports.
But netconf yang is almost a must.

You know something like asr920 or juniper equivalent, but something that that is not EoS or EoL
Oh and something not from China (you know, bad PR)…

Any pointers much appreciated.

adam
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too much throughput meaning draws too much power,



adam



From: Jakub Horn (jakuhorn) <jakuhorn@cisco.com>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:08 PM
To: adamv0025@netconsultings.com; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations



If cisco, I wouldn’t consider 920… I think NCS540 is better option.

XR based, feature rich and here are different models supporting different BW, different port density…

I think price/performance ratio is superb!



For better evaluation you should be more specific about scale, precise about required features…..



Disclaimer: cisco employee…..



Cheers

-j



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jakuhorn=cisco.com@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-bounces+jakuhorn=cisco.com@nanog.org> > on behalf of "adamv0025@netconsultings.com <mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com> " <adamv0025@netconsultings.com <mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com> >
Date: Friday, 16 October 2020 at 22:59
To: "nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> " <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> >
Subject: cheap MPLS router recommendations



Hi folks,



I’m looking for recommendations on a cheap MPLS router (L3VPNs RSVP-TE and BFD).

Around 60G throughput would do , heck even 30G.

Few 1/10G ports.

But netconf yang is almost a must.



You know something like asr920 or juniper equivalent, but something that that is not EoS or EoL

Oh and something not from China (you know, bad PR)…



Any pointers much appreciated.



adam
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Juniper MX204, easy



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> On Behalf Of adamv0025@netconsultings.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:31 am
To: 'Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)' <jakuhorn@cisco.com>; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too much throughput meaning draws too much power,



adam
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price as well as performance.

Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without the 4x100G ports)



adam

From: Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
To: adamv0025@netconsultings.com
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



Juniper MX204, easy



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> > On Behalf Of adamv0025@netconsultings.com <mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com>
Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:31 am
To: 'Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)' <jakuhorn@cisco.com <mailto:jakuhorn@cisco.com> >; nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too much throughput meaning draws too much power,



adam
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
MX150?



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+webnetwiz=gmail.com@nanog.org> on behalf of <adamv0025@netconsultings.com>
Date: Friday, October 16, 2020 at 2:59 PM
To: 'Tony Wicks' <tony@wicks.co.nz>
Cc: <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price as well as performance.

Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without the 4x100G ports)



adam

From: Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
To: adamv0025@netconsultings.com
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



Juniper MX204, easy



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> On Behalf Of adamv0025@netconsultings.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:31 am
To: 'Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)' <jakuhorn@cisco.com>; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too much throughput meaning draws too much power,



adam
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Juniper ACX710. Yes it also has more ports, but you only pay for the
capacity you need (100G minimum). So you could buy a license that would
allow you to enable 10x 10G with the 100G ports dormant.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:57 PM <adamv0025@netconsultings.com> wrote:

> For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price
> as well as performance.
>
> Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without
> the 4x100G ports)
>
>
>
> adam
>
> *From:* Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz>
> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
> *To:* adamv0025@netconsultings.com
> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> Juniper MX204, easy
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> *On Behalf Of *
> adamv0025@netconsultings.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:31 am
> *To:* 'Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)' <jakuhorn@cisco.com>; nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too
> much throughput meaning draws too much power,
>
>
>
> adam
>
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Most Arista boxes can do pretty much full MPLS (with appropriate
honor-system licensing) as long as you don't need full-table Internet PE
capabilities. At those bandwidths, you could easily get a used box off
eBay and put it back under support (for more than you paid for the box)
if you wanted to save some $$$.

Extreme SLX is essentially the same thing with a different badge and a
different licensing structure.

An old Brocade (now Extreme) NetIron CER-4X (which is still supported
and sold but nearing end of useful life for most providers) might even
meet your needs. You wouldn't need the enhanced route scale hardware
which makes them cheap on the secondary market. Avoid the CES even
though it ostensibly does what you want. The MPLS signaling on this
platform is probably a bit more mature but also perhaps lacking some
modern niceties. Cost is probably not compelling if buying new, but IDK
what they're actually selling them for these days.

Don't expect high-touch features like you might get from an ASR or MX,
but if you just want to push/pop labels, signal L2/L3VPNs, participate
in IGP with on-net routes, and move data around, they'll do the job with
decent North-America facing sales and support facilities.

At those bandwidths and low port counts, you can also potentially use
FRR or Quagga on Linux or *BSD on a suitably sized PC platform. Linux
has usable MPLS support these days, though documentation is a bit
lacking. One of the BSDs has had it longer and may be more thoroughly
documented.
--
Brandon Martin
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with more than one full table.



From: adamv0025@netconsultings.com <adamv0025@netconsultings.com>
Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:57 am
To: 'Tony Wicks' <tony@wicks.co.nz>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price as well as performance.

Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without the 4x100G ports)



adam

From: Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz <mailto:tony@wicks.co.nz> >
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
To: adamv0025@netconsultings.com <mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



Juniper MX204, easy
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
It can handle a few full tables, but the performance of an MX80/MX104 is nearly the same as the EX4200 switch.

Ryan
On Oct 16 2020, at 4:41 pm, Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz> wrote:
> Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with more than one full table.
>
>
> From: adamv0025@netconsultings.com <adamv0025@netconsultings.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:57 am
> To: 'Tony Wicks' <tony@wicks.co.nz>
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
>
>
> For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price as well as performance.
> Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without the 4x100G ports)
>
> adam
> From: Tony Wicks <tony@wicks.co.nz (mailto:tony@wicks.co.nz)>
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
> To: adamv0025@netconsultings.com (mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com)
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org (mailto:nanog@nanog.org)
> Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
>
>
> Juniper MX204, easy
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
I’m using a pair of MX104’s for 10 gig and a MS-MIC-16G for CGNat integrated with L3VPN’s (LDP for label distro), just fine. About 5,000 DSL broadband customer behind them, on a /24 public ip nat pool. Some nice IP savings there.



Can’t speak to your BFP, RSVP-TE requirement as I never needed that on mine.



-Aaron
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" <tony@wicks.co.nz> said:

> Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> more than one full table.

Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of support left. Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules, buying one new right now might be unwise.

Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you wait.

MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is still not best pleased with full tables.

OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)

Regards,
Tim.
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
point. Anyone tried these yet?
https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM tim@pelican.org <tim@pelican.org> wrote:

> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" <tony@wicks.co.nz> said:
>
> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> > more than one full table.
>
> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of
> support left. Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules,
> buying one new right now might be unwise.
>
> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless
> you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you
> wait.
>
> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
> still not best pleased with full tables.
>
> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>
> Regards,
> Tim.
>
>
>
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally -$2000 to $4000 new

-new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.



And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded… )



Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along with the support for the whole thing?





adam



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Colton Conor
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
To: tim@pelican.org
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations



I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000. Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price point. Anyone tried these yet? https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/





On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM tim@pelican.org <mailto:tim@pelican.org> <tim@pelican.org <mailto:tim@pelican.org> > wrote:

On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" <tony@wicks.co.nz <mailto:tony@wicks.co.nz> > said:

> Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> more than one full table.

Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of support left. Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules, buying one new right now might be unwise.

Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you wait.

MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is still not best pleased with full tables.

OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)

Regards,
Tim.
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Well then Adam I would say the Dasan Zhone fits the budget. The M3000 seems
like a real beast for the price point with 100G ports.

Yes, other whitebox vendors are doing this, but they seem to want 2-4k for
the whitebox, and even more for the operating system, making it more
expensive that Juniper from what I have seen.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM <adamv0025@netconsultings.com> wrote:

> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally -$2000 to $4000 new
>
> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>
>
>
> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded…
> )
>
>
>
> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
> with the support for the whole thing?
>
>
>
>
>
> adam
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org> *On
> Behalf Of *Colton Conor
> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
> *To:* tim@pelican.org
> *Cc:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
> Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
> point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
> point. Anyone tried these yet?
> https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM tim@pelican.org <tim@pelican.org> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" <tony@wicks.co.nz> said:
>
> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> > more than one full table.
>
> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of
> support left. Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules,
> buying one new right now might be unwise.
>
> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless
> you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you
> wait.
>
> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
> still not best pleased with full tables.
>
> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>
> Regards,
> Tim.
>
>
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
https://www.multicominc.com/wp-content/uploads/DZS-M3000_M.pdf

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:08 PM Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well then Adam I would say the Dasan Zhone fits the budget. The M3000
> seems like a real beast for the price point with 100G ports.
>
> Yes, other whitebox vendors are doing this, but they seem to want 2-4k for
> the whitebox, and even more for the operating system, making it more
> expensive that Juniper from what I have seen.
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM <adamv0025@netconsultings.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally -$2000 to $4000 new
>>
>> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
>> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>>
>>
>>
>> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
>> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded…
>> )
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
>> with the support for the whole thing?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> adam
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org> *On
>> Behalf Of *Colton Conor
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
>> *To:* tim@pelican.org
>> *Cc:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>>
>>
>>
>> I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
>> Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
>> point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
>> point. Anyone tried these yet?
>> https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM tim@pelican.org <tim@pelican.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" <tony@wicks.co.nz>
>> said:
>>
>> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
>> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
>> > more than one full table.
>>
>> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years
>> of support left. Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation
>> rules, buying one new right now might be unwise.
>>
>> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless
>> you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you
>> wait.
>>
>> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
>> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
>> still not best pleased with full tables.
>>
>> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tim.
>>
>>
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Right, well in that price/performance range you either “roll your own” or this is your best option IMHO - https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1072-1G-8Splus and I’d pick the Mikrotik every time.







From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> On Behalf Of adamv0025@netconsultings.com
Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 9:28 am
To: 'Colton Conor' <colton.conor@gmail.com>; tim@pelican.org
Cc: 'NANOG' <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations



Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally -$2000 to $4000 new

-new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.



And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded… )



Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along with the support for the whole thing?





adam
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
On 10/21/20 4:27 PM, adamv0025@netconsultings.com wrote:
> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new
>
> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>

Do you want SFP or BASE-T on the 1Gb ports?
--
Brandon Martin
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
Does this device have deep buffers?

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 11:12 PM Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
wrote:

> https://www.multicominc.com/wp-content/uploads/DZS-M3000_M.pdf
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:08 PM Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well then Adam I would say the Dasan Zhone fits the budget. The M3000
>> seems like a real beast for the price point with 100G ports.
>>
>> Yes, other whitebox vendors are doing this, but they seem to want 2-4k
>> for the whitebox, and even more for the operating system, making it more
>> expensive that Juniper from what I have seen.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM <adamv0025@netconsultings.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally -$2000 to $4000 new
>>>
>>> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
>>> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
>>> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded…
>>> )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
>>> with the support for the whole thing?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org> *On
>>> Behalf Of *Colton Conor
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
>>> *To:* tim@pelican.org
>>> *Cc:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
>>> Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
>>> point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
>>> point. Anyone tried these yet?
>>> https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM tim@pelican.org <tim@pelican.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" <tony@wicks.co.nz>
>>> said:
>>>
>>> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
>>> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
>>> > more than one full table.
>>>
>>> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years
>>> of support left. Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation
>>> rules, buying one new right now might be unwise.
>>>
>>> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers)
>>> unless you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while
>>> you wait.
>>>
>>> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
>>> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
>>> still not best pleased with full tables.
>>>
>>> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tim.
>>>
>>>
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
If we're talking about whitebox router and ipifusion, what we're really
talking about is vyatta/vyOS and the linux foundation DANOS stuff on an
ordinary x86-64 server that has a weird shape.

https://www.ipinfusion.com/commercial-version-of-danos-product-page/

https://www.danosproject.org/

In which case it really comes down to how comfortable you are with the
feature sets of the individual daemons contained within Vyatta/VyOS derived
products (FRR, etc), and then your trust level in the hardware. Typically
something such as a Taiwanese industrial/embedded platform manufacturer
such as Lanner:

http://www.lannerinc.com/products/network-appliances/x86-rackmount-network-appliances

If you look at the results of a linux kernel boot on a Lanner appliance
running VyOS, or a lspci -v, they're not significantly different than
taking a Dell or Supermicro rack server and sticking a whole bunch of Intel
or Chelsio 2 or 4-port 10GbE cards into it. It's just a weird shaped
motherboard, but ultimately derived from an Intel or AMD reference design,
and shares a lot in common in a block diagram with a 1U dual socket server
motherboard from a company like Tyan or Supermicro. You've got ethernet
NICs attached to the PCI-E bus the same as if they were slotted into cards.

Aside from the big names like Quanta, Compal and Clevo who will manufacture
these things for you in a bespoke fashion if you're a big cloud scale
operator, if you google "taiwan embedded industrial motherboard" you'll
find the companies that make most of the x86-64 whitebox router hardware.

I guess the point I'm trying to make above is that **if** you're confident
in both the SW and HW, you can disaggregate your choice of software
(vyatta/vyos/DANOS etc) from your own choice of hardware to best fit your
needs, rather than purchasing it together as a package.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 1:28 PM <adamv0025@netconsultings.com> wrote:

> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally -$2000 to $4000 new
>
> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>
>
>
> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded…
> )
>
>
>
> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
> with the support for the whole thing?
>
>
>
>
>
> adam
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org> *On
> Behalf Of *Colton Conor
> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
> *To:* tim@pelican.org
> *Cc:* NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
> Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
> point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
> point. Anyone tried these yet?
> https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM tim@pelican.org <tim@pelican.org> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" <tony@wicks.co.nz> said:
>
> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> > more than one full table.
>
> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of
> support left. Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules,
> buying one new right now might be unwise.
>
> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless
> you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you
> wait.
>
> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
> still not best pleased with full tables.
>
> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>
> Regards,
> Tim.
>
>
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
> On Oct 26, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If we're talking about whitebox router and ipifusion, what we're really talking about is vyatta/vyOS and the linux foundation DANOS stuff on an ordinary x86-64 server that has a weird shape.
>

Maybe tangential, but to be clear, VyOS is not equivalent to DANOS/Vyatta. And DANOS is a subset of Vyatta.

VyOS is a fork of the second generation Vyatta code which used the Linux kernel as the packet forwarding plane. Control plane integration is based on a proprietary scripting language with bash shell interpretation.

The current generation Vyatta is for the most part a completely different system. Some of the changes at a very high level: Linux kernel based forwarding has been replaced with bespoke DPDK based software packet forwarding to improve features and performance. Merchant silicon forwarding support was also added to be able to support hybrid software/hardware forwarding paths on the same box. The control plane is a completely re-written event driven system using yang as the modeling language to improve features, ease of use, operation, and security. The Vyatta routing protocol stack is proprietary.

DANOS is the open source version of current generation Vyatta, which makes up the bulk of the Vyatta code since AT&T released it to LF. Active Vyatta development on the OSS is done upstream in github. The major differences between Vyatta and DANOS are mostly due to licensing restrictions. FRR in DANOS replaces the proprietary routing protocol stack in Vyatta. Also, the merchant silicon integration in the DANOS forwarding plane currently only supports a limited number of Broadcom DNX based systems using OpenNSL rather than a proprietary SDK.

From a hardware perspective, Vyatta/DANOS supports hybrid software/hardware forwarding environments. So you could install it on standard x86 system that looks like a server to enable software forwarding. In this environment it has been tested to 100(s)Gbps depending on the hardware. Or you could install it as a VNF in the cloud. Or you could install on a merchant silicon based whitebox switch and get hardware based forwarding at the full Tb capacity of the merchant silicon chip. There are install guides at danosproject.org <http://danosproject.org/> for those use cases.

There are also vendors that produce hybrid systems with large enough punt paths between the x86 SOC and the merchant silicon to support true hybrid environments where some features/forwarding are handled by the merchant silicon and some by the SOC. One example, in a CPE device you may want local traffic routing and filtering services handled by the merchant silicon while IPsec is handled in software using DPDK on the x86 SOC.

Vyatta/DANOS is deployed in production at scale in all of these footprints. So it’s not just for weirdly shaped servers anymore.

-r
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
While I like MikroTik, I don’t recommend anyone uses it for MPLS.
There are problems with the way they handle labels that causes random connectivity issues, and can crash MPLS devices from other vendors. That’s from experience.
As an example, check out this post which was started back in 2013 and is still an issue in 2020:
https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=73820

Regards,
Philip

From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+philip.loenneker=tasmanet.com.au@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Tony Wicks
Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 8:19 AM
To: adamv0025@netconsultings.com
Cc: 'NANOG' <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

Right, well in that price/performance range you either “roll your own” or this is your best option IMHO - https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1072-1G-8Splus<https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmikrotik.com%2Fproduct%2FCCR1072-1G-8Splus&data=04%7C01%7Cphilip.loenneker%40tasmanet.com.au%7C8ce25b7a3e7a4dbf590b08d876075003%7Cb53dc580ab7847208b30536f36d398ac%7C0%7C0%7C637389121077665349%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=1r2za67vrAwvPo%2BM4Kiq1KDf8eg1bp61NNockBRJKEk%3D&reserved=0> and I’d pick the Mikrotik every time.



From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org>> On Behalf Of adamv0025@netconsultings.com<mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com>
Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 9:28 am
To: 'Colton Conor' <colton.conor@gmail.com<mailto:colton.conor@gmail.com>>; tim@pelican.org<mailto:tim@pelican.org>
Cc: 'NANOG' <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally -$2000 to $4000 new
-new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.

And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded… )

Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along with the support for the whole thing?


adam
Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
I can second that. Mikrotik MPLS implementation is not good and lacking key features (speaking from personal experience also), and has not show any signs of improvement in quite some time.

One unit to take a look at for a cheap 10G solution is this:

https://www.zte.com.cn/global/products/bearer/Ethernet-Switch/5960-EN

Many many years ago this was mentioned by some NANOG members (Baldur?) and I recall one had said they were using it with some success.

-PC

Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 06:12:10AM +0000, Philip Loenneker wrote:


> While I like MikroTik, I don’t recommend anyone uses it for MPLS.
>
> There are problems with the way they handle labels that causes random
> connectivity issues, and can crash MPLS devices from other vendors. That’s
> from experience.
>
> As an example, check out this post which was started back in 2013 and is
> still an issue in 2020:
>
> https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=73820
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Philip
>
>
>
> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+philip.loenneker=tasmanet.com.au@nanog.org> On
> Behalf Of Tony Wicks
> Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 8:19 AM
> To: adamv0025@netconsultings.com
> Cc: 'NANOG' <nanog@nanog.org>
> Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> Right, well in that price/performance range you either “roll your own” or
> this is your best option IMHO -
> https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1072-1G-8Splus and I’d pick the Mikrotik
> every time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co.nz@nanog.org> On Behalf Of
> adamv0025@netconsultings.com
> Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 9:28 am
> To: 'Colton Conor' <colton.conor@gmail.com>; tim@pelican.org
> Cc: 'NANOG' <nanog@nanog.org>
> Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally -$2000 to $4000 new
>
> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>
>
>
> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be
> downloaded… )
>
>
>
> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
> with the support for the whole thing?
>
>
>
>
>
> adam

--
Patrick Cole <patrick.cole@spirit.com.au>
Chief Engineer
Spirit Technology Solutions
19-25 Raglan St, South Melbourne VIC 3205
Desk: 0385541391
Mobile: 0410626630
RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ In reply to ]
> Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2020 6:52 PM
>
> If we're talking about whitebox router and ipifusion, what we're really talking
> about is vyatta/vyOS and the linux foundation DANOS stuff on an ordinary x86-
> 64 server that has a weird shape.
>
> https://www.ipinfusion.com/commercial-version-of-danos-product-page/
>
> https://www.danosproject.org/
>
> In which case it really comes down to how comfortable you are with the
> feature sets of the individual daemons contained within Vyatta/VyOS derived
> products (FRR, etc), and then your trust level in the hardware. Typically
> something such as a Taiwanese industrial/embedded platform manufacturer
> such as Lanner:
>
> http://www.lannerinc.com/products/network-appliances/x86-rackmount-
> network-appliances
>
Yes I agree and I have been looking at Lanner (NCA-2510, NCA-2512) -and I'll be thankful if I could be pointed towards other companies "producing funny looking servers" for comparison.
I've been also looking at the whole, a bit confusing, ecosystem of DANOS/Vytta/VyOS and their capabilities through my PE requirement optics (i.e. MPLS L3VPN, RSVP-TE/SR-TE & fast reroute, NETCONF-YANG) -which these NOS-es seem to have very little to no support for.


> I guess the point I'm trying to make above is that **if** you're confident in
> both the SW and HW, you can disaggregate your choice of software
> (vyatta/vyos/DANOS etc) from your own choice of hardware to best fit your
> needs, rather than purchasing it together as a package.
>
I agree, however I need this whole SW to HW mapping and all associated pain of interworking and operational support to be absorbed and nicely packaged by a vendor.
On that note, can Lanner fix me up with some DANOS/Vytta/VyOS on their NCA-2510 or NCA-2512 please?

Or in more general terms, are there folks out there that specialize in providing support for NOS X, Y, Z with HW X, Y, Z -in any combination?
-so that I could just pick NOS X with HW Y from their portfolio based on my project requirements and get similar support I'd get from a "standard" vendor?

adam