Mailing List Archive

Anne,

IPv4 has been depleted in ARIN region since ~2015, it's supply and demand.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:36 PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. <amitchell@isipp.com>
wrote:

> I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for quite
> some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage *right now*?
>
> I ask, because Liquid Web is using it as an excuse to raise their prices:
>
> "We're contacting you today to inform you of a change to your account. As
> you may know, the global shortage of IPv4 addresses (
> https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out) continues to
> impact web hosting companies around the world. ... Effective August 31st,
> we will be updating our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP."
>
> Anne
>
> --
> Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law
> Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> CEO, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>
>

Yes.

Every RIR has either assigned all the space that it has been allocated, or
is getting very close and restricting the amount of v4 addresses that can
be requested. Once that occurs, you can get on a waiting list to obtain
space from the RIR that has been returned to the pool, but there are no
guarantees on how long that will be, and if you could even get enough v4
space for your needs.

The only other option then becomes the secondary transfer markets, where
costs to acquire v4 space are much higher than what direct allocations from
the RIRs used to be.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:35 PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. <amitchell@isipp.com>
wrote:

> I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for quite
> some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage *right now*?
>
> I ask, because Liquid Web is using it as an excuse to raise their prices:
>
> "We're contacting you today to inform you of a change to your account. As
> you may know, the global shortage of IPv4 addresses (
> https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out) continues to
> impact web hosting companies around the world. ... Effective August 31st,
> we will be updating our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP."
>
> Anne
>
> --
> Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law
> Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> CEO, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>
>

> I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for
> quite some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage
> *right now*?

yes, ipv4 space is tight

> our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP.

open market is O($20) per host address. that is 'buying' it. and then
you will pay annual fees to some RIR.

randy

Agreeing with the other replies about scarcity. Also wanted to comment that address exhaustion affects web hosts particularly hard because "SEO experts" continue to believe that if a site they work on does not have an exclusive IP, they're being penalized by Google. They'll convince clients to migrate around hosts until they find one that will allocate an address, so the choice is buy address space or suffer if your platform is not otherwise unique.



?On 8/4/20, 3:36 PM, "NANOG on behalf of Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." <nanog-bounces+dhubbard=dino.hostasaurus.com@nanog.org on behalf of amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:

I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for quite some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage *right now*?

I ask, because Liquid Web is using it as an excuse to raise their prices:

"We're contacting you today to inform you of a change to your account. As you may know, the global shortage of IPv4 addresses (https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out) continues to impact web hosting companies around the world. ... Effective August 31st, we will be updating our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP."

Anne

--
Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law
Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
CEO, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)

IP address space is no longer free. But an ISP or hosting company is a
trader of addresses now and like everything else we do, there is an
opportunity to make a margin.

Say the provider bought at $12 per address and assuming IPv4 is needed for
at least 10 years, that would only be .1 USD/month.

But does that mean it is unfair to claim a $2 rent on that? What if the
service has other components that are equally cheaper?

Regards
Baldur


tir. 4. aug. 2020 21.34 skrev Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. <amitchell@isipp.com>:

> I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for quite
> some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage *right now*?
>
> I ask, because Liquid Web is using it as an excuse to raise their prices:
>
> "We're contacting you today to inform you of a change to your account. As
> you may know, the global shortage of IPv4 addresses (
> https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out) continues to
> impact web hosting companies around the world. ... Effective August 31st,
> we will be updating our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP."
>
> Anne
>
> --
> Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law
> Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> CEO, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>
>

$2/month is one of the more reasonable pricing schemes I’ve seen. Many providers are gouging $5 and in some cases as much as $15/month for static IPv4 addresses.

The good news is that IPv6 is still quite inexpensive and works even better.

Owen


> On Aug 4, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Baldur Norddahl <baldur.norddahl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> IP address space is no longer free. But an ISP or hosting company is a trader of addresses now and like everything else we do, there is an opportunity to make a margin.
>
> Say the provider bought at $12 per address and assuming IPv4 is needed for at least 10 years, that would only be .1 USD/month.
>
> But does that mean it is unfair to claim a $2 rent on that? What if the service has other components that are equally cheaper?
>
> Regards
> Baldur
>
>
> tir. 4. aug. 2020 21.34 skrev Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. <amitchell@isipp.com <mailto:amitchell@isipp.com>>:
> I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for quite some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage *right now*?
>
> I ask, because Liquid Web is using it as an excuse to raise their prices:
>
> "We're contacting you today to inform you of a change to your account. As you may know, the global shortage of IPv4 addresses (https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out <https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out>) continues to impact web hosting companies around the world. ... Effective August 31st, we will be updating our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP."
>
> Anne
>
> --
> Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law
> Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> CEO, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>

> On Aug 4, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
>
> The only other option then becomes the secondary transfer markets, where costs to acquire v4 space are much higher than what direct allocations from the RIRs used to be.
>
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:35 PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. <amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:
>> I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for quite some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage *right now*?
>>
>> I ask, because Liquid Web is using it as an excuse to raise their prices:
>>
>> "We're contacting you today to inform you of a change to your account. As you may know, the global shortage of IPv4 addresses (https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out) continues to impact web hosting companies around the world. ... Effective August 31st, we will be updating our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP."

For an overview of open market pricing, you might look at https://ipv4marketgroup.com/ipv4-pricing/.

You may also find this talk interesting in context:
Mythic Beasts, which is a data center operator in London, gave a talk to the IPv6 Operations Working Group in the IETF two years ago, and used these slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/101/slides/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-only-hosting-00. If you look through them, you'll find a discussion of the address shortage and what impact it has on pricing from them.

In short, Mythic Beasts find that IPv6 service is virtually free, and don't charge for it. They find that when a customer pushes them to also give IPv4 addressing, they have to charge, as it costs them, and they find that making the customer engineer explain to his/her bean counters why the need it often has the effect of convincing the company to use IPv6 externally. https://image.slidesharecdn.com/ipv6atmythicbeasts-networkshop44-160323133644/95/ipv6-at-mythic-beasts-networkshop44-19-638.jpg?cb=1458740321

In short, yes, there is a shortage of IPv4 addresses, and the net result is both an increase in price and an increase in network complexity.

We got a new block from ARIN 12-23-2019 19:40:59. I remember many that
were on the list for months to a few years that also got allocated that
week.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:31 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On Aug 4, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
> >
> > The only other option then becomes the secondary transfer markets, where
> costs to acquire v4 space are much higher than what direct allocations from
> the RIRs used to be.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:35 PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. <
> amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:
> >> I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for quite
> some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage *right now*?
> >>
> >> I ask, because Liquid Web is using it as an excuse to raise their
> prices:
> >>
> >> "We're contacting you today to inform you of a change to your account.
> As you may know, the global shortage of IPv4 addresses (
> https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out) continues to
> impact web hosting companies around the world. ... Effective August 31st,
> we will be updating our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP."
>
> For an overview of open market pricing, you might look at
> https://ipv4marketgroup.com/ipv4-pricing/.
>
> You may also find this talk interesting in context:
> Mythic Beasts, which is a data center operator in London, gave a talk to
> the IPv6 Operations Working Group in the IETF two years ago, and used these
> slides:
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/101/slides/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-only-hosting-00.
> If you look through them, you'll find a discussion of the address shortage
> and what impact it has on pricing from them.
>
> In short, Mythic Beasts find that IPv6 service is virtually free, and
> don't charge for it. They find that when a customer pushes them to also
> give IPv4 addressing, they have to charge, as it costs them, and they find
> that making the customer engineer explain to his/her bean counters why the
> need it often has the effect of convincing the company to use IPv6
> externally.
> https://image.slidesharecdn.com/ipv6atmythicbeasts-networkshop44-160323133644/95/ipv6-at-mythic-beasts-networkshop44-19-638.jpg?cb=1458740321
>
> In short, yes, there is a shortage of IPv4 addresses, and the net result
> is both an increase in price and an increase in network complexity.

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 10:17 AM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>
wrote:

> We got a new block from ARIN 12-23-2019 19:40:59. I remember many that
> were on the list for months to a few years that also got allocated that
> week.
>

There was an influx of available space at ARIN around December/January. We
ended up getting a /23 during that timeframe as well, even though we'd been
buying space from third parties for a couple of years prior to that
exclusively because of ARIN exhaustion. Whether ARIN or other RIRs may have
such an influx again in the future remains to be seen, but it does pay to
be on the wait list just in case that time comes.

Matt Harris|Infrastructure Lead Engineer
816-256-5446|Direct
Looking for something?
Helpdesk Portal|Email Support|Billing Portal
We build and deliver end-to-end IT solutions.

I think it's also worth pointing out that there is administrative and
technology overhead to leasing out IPs as well; some liability too when it
comes to network abuse. Additionally, not every user returns their IPs as
they received them, many find their way onto blacklists or other negative
reputation lists and must be cleared as the new lessee stumbles upon these
issues.

-Matt

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:34 PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. <amitchell@isipp.com>
wrote:

> I know that a shortage of IPv4 addresses has been anticipated for quite
> some time (literally decades), however, is there a shortage *right now*?
>
> I ask, because Liquid Web is using it as an excuse to raise their prices:
>
> "We're contacting you today to inform you of a change to your account. As
> you may know, the global shortage of IPv4 addresses (
> https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-run-out) continues to
> impact web hosting companies around the world. ... Effective August 31st,
> we will be updating our per IPv4 address price to $2.00 per IP."
>
> Anne
>
> --
> Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law
> Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> CEO, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>
>

--
Matt Erculiani
ERCUL-ARIN