Mailing List Archive

Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G?
Hi folks,

Over the past few weeks, I've attended webinars and watched videos
organized by Intel.
These activities have centred on 5G and examined applications (like "visual
cloud" and "gaming"),
as well as segment-oriented aspects (like edge networks, 5G RAN and 5G
Core).

I am stunned (no hyperbole) by the emphasis on Kubernetes in particular,
and cloud-native computing in general.
Equally stunning (for me), public telecommunications networks have been
portrayed
as having a history that moved from integrated software and hardware,
to virtualization and now to cloud-native computing.
See, for example Alex Quach, here
<https://www.telecomtv.com/content/intel-vsummit-5g-ran-5g-core/the-5g-core-is-vital-to-deliver-the-promise-of-5g-39164/>
@10:30).
I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming
obsolete.

Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?


Cheers all,

Etienne

--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasqualeI
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
On 1/Aug/20 11:23, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
> Over the past few weeks, I've attended webinars and watched videos
> organized by Intel. 
> These activities have centred on 5G and examined applications (like
> "visual cloud" and "gaming"), 
> as well as segment-oriented aspects (like edge networks, 5G RAN and 5G
> Core).
>
> I am stunned (no hyperbole) by the emphasis on Kubernetes in particular,
> and cloud-native computing in general. 
> Equally stunning (for me), public telecommunications networks have
> been portrayed 
> as having a history that moved from integrated software and hardware, 
> to virtualization and now to cloud-native computing. 
> See, for example Alex Quach, here
> <https://www.telecomtv.com/content/intel-vsummit-5g-ran-5g-core/the-5g-core-is-vital-to-deliver-the-promise-of-5g-39164/> @10:30).
> I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming
> obsolete.
>
> Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?

In the early dawn of SDN, where it was cool to have the RP's in Beirut
and the line cards in Lagos, the industry quickly realized that was not
entirely feasible.

If you are looking at over-the-top services, so-called cloud-native
computing makes sense in order to deliver that value accordingly, and
with agility. But as it pertains to actual network transport, I'm not
yet sure the industry is at the stage where we are confident enough to
decompose packet forwarding through a cloud.

Network operators are more likely to keep using kit that integrates
forwarding hardware as well as a NOS, as no amount of cloud architecting
is going to rival a 100Gbps purpose-built port, for example.

Suffice it to say, there was a time when folk were considering running
their critical infrastructure (such as your route reflectors) in AWS or
similar. I'm not quite sure public clouds are at that level of
confidence yet. So if some kind of cloud-native infrastructure is to be
considered for critical infrastructure, I highly suspect it will be
in-house.

On the other hand, for any new budding entrepreneurs that want to get
into the mobile game with as little cost as possible, there is a huge
opportunity to do so by building all that infrastructure in an on-prem
cloud-native architecture, and offer packet forwarding using
general-purpose hardware provided they don't exceed their expectations.
This way, they wouldn't have to deal with the high costs traditional
vendors (Ericsson, Nokia, Huawei, Siemens, ZTE, e.t.c.) impose. Granted,
it would be small scale, but maybe that is the business model. And in an
industry where capex is fast out-pacing revenue, it would be the mobile
network equivalent of low-cost carrier airlines.

I very well could be talking out the side of my neck, but my prediction
is mobile operators will be optimistic but cautious. I reckon a healthy
mix between cloud-native and tried & tested practices.

Mark.
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
The surprise for me regards Intel's (and the entire Cloud Native Computing
Foundation's?) readiness to move past network functions run on VMs
and towards network functions run as microservices in containers.

See, for example, Azhar Sayeed's (Red Hat) contribution here
<https://www.lightreading.com/webinar.asp?webinar_id=1608>@15:33.

Cheers,

Etienne

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:35 PM Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 1/Aug/20 11:23, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
>
> Over the past few weeks, I've attended webinars and watched videos
> organized by Intel.
> These activities have centred on 5G and examined applications (like
> "visual cloud" and "gaming"),
> as well as segment-oriented aspects (like edge networks, 5G RAN and 5G
> Core).
>
> I am stunned (no hyperbole) by the emphasis on Kubernetes in particular,
> and cloud-native computing in general.
> Equally stunning (for me), public telecommunications networks have been
> portrayed
> as having a history that moved from integrated software and hardware,
> to virtualization and now to cloud-native computing.
> See, for example Alex Quach, here
> <https://www.telecomtv.com/content/intel-vsummit-5g-ran-5g-core/the-5g-core-is-vital-to-deliver-the-promise-of-5g-39164/> @10:30).
> I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming
> obsolete.
>
> Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?
>
>
> In the early dawn of SDN, where it was cool to have the RP's in Beirut and
> the line cards in Lagos, the industry quickly realized that was not
> entirely feasible.
>
> If you are looking at over-the-top services, so-called cloud-native
> computing makes sense in order to deliver that value accordingly, and with
> agility. But as it pertains to actual network transport, I'm not yet sure
> the industry is at the stage where we are confident enough to decompose
> packet forwarding through a cloud.
>
> Network operators are more likely to keep using kit that integrates
> forwarding hardware as well as a NOS, as no amount of cloud architecting is
> going to rival a 100Gbps purpose-built port, for example.
>
> Suffice it to say, there was a time when folk were considering running
> their critical infrastructure (such as your route reflectors) in AWS or
> similar. I'm not quite sure public clouds are at that level of confidence
> yet. So if some kind of cloud-native infrastructure is to be considered for
> critical infrastructure, I highly suspect it will be in-house.
>
> On the other hand, for any new budding entrepreneurs that want to get into
> the mobile game with as little cost as possible, there is a huge
> opportunity to do so by building all that infrastructure in an on-prem
> cloud-native architecture, and offer packet forwarding using
> general-purpose hardware provided they don't exceed their expectations.
> This way, they wouldn't have to deal with the high costs traditional
> vendors (Ericsson, Nokia, Huawei, Siemens, ZTE, e.t.c.) impose. Granted, it
> would be small scale, but maybe that is the business model. And in an
> industry where capex is fast out-pacing revenue, it would be the mobile
> network equivalent of low-cost carrier airlines.
>
> I very well could be talking out the side of my neck, but my prediction is
> mobile operators will be optimistic but cautious. I reckon a healthy mix
> between cloud-native and tried & tested practices.
>
> Mark.
>


--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:21 AM Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org>
wrote:

> The surprise for me regards Intel's (and the entire Cloud Native Computing
> Foundation's?) readiness to move past network functions run on VMs
> and towards network functions run as microservices in containers.
>
> See, for example, Azhar Sayeed's (Red Hat) contribution here
> <https://www.lightreading.com/webinar.asp?webinar_id=1608>@15:33.
>

Be careful not to confuse vendors pumping stuff with whats actually
deployed.

Also, AT&T has been doing virtualization for nearly 10 years now, so
perhaps you were just not paying attention

https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/at-t-target-for-virtualizing-75-its-network-by-2020

Not sure it has helped ATT in any meaningful way, their stock price is the
same it was in 2015.


> Cheers,
>
> Etienne
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:35 PM Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 1/Aug/20 11:23, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
>>
>> Over the past few weeks, I've attended webinars and watched videos
>> organized by Intel.
>> These activities have centred on 5G and examined applications (like
>> "visual cloud" and "gaming"),
>> as well as segment-oriented aspects (like edge networks, 5G RAN and 5G
>> Core).
>>
>> I am stunned (no hyperbole) by the emphasis on Kubernetes in particular,
>> and cloud-native computing in general.
>> Equally stunning (for me), public telecommunications networks have been
>> portrayed
>> as having a history that moved from integrated software and hardware,
>> to virtualization and now to cloud-native computing.
>> See, for example Alex Quach, here
>> <https://www.telecomtv.com/content/intel-vsummit-5g-ran-5g-core/the-5g-core-is-vital-to-deliver-the-promise-of-5g-39164/> @10:30).
>> I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming
>> obsolete.
>>
>> Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?
>>
>>
>> In the early dawn of SDN, where it was cool to have the RP's in Beirut
>> and the line cards in Lagos, the industry quickly realized that was not
>> entirely feasible.
>>
>> If you are looking at over-the-top services, so-called cloud-native
>> computing makes sense in order to deliver that value accordingly, and with
>> agility. But as it pertains to actual network transport, I'm not yet sure
>> the industry is at the stage where we are confident enough to decompose
>> packet forwarding through a cloud.
>>
>> Network operators are more likely to keep using kit that integrates
>> forwarding hardware as well as a NOS, as no amount of cloud architecting is
>> going to rival a 100Gbps purpose-built port, for example.
>>
>> Suffice it to say, there was a time when folk were considering running
>> their critical infrastructure (such as your route reflectors) in AWS or
>> similar. I'm not quite sure public clouds are at that level of confidence
>> yet. So if some kind of cloud-native infrastructure is to be considered for
>> critical infrastructure, I highly suspect it will be in-house.
>>
>> On the other hand, for any new budding entrepreneurs that want to get
>> into the mobile game with as little cost as possible, there is a huge
>> opportunity to do so by building all that infrastructure in an on-prem
>> cloud-native architecture, and offer packet forwarding using
>> general-purpose hardware provided they don't exceed their expectations.
>> This way, they wouldn't have to deal with the high costs traditional
>> vendors (Ericsson, Nokia, Huawei, Siemens, ZTE, e.t.c.) impose. Granted, it
>> would be small scale, but maybe that is the business model. And in an
>> industry where capex is fast out-pacing revenue, it would be the mobile
>> network equivalent of low-cost carrier airlines.
>>
>> I very well could be talking out the side of my neck, but my prediction
>> is mobile operators will be optimistic but cautious. I reckon a healthy mix
>> between cloud-native and tried & tested practices.
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>
>
> --
> Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
> Assistant Lecturer
> Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
> Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
> University of Malta
> Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
>
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
>
> Be careful not to confuse vendors pumping stuff with whats actually
> deployed.
>
Well yes, there's always the hype factor to discount. The reason why I'm
asking this forum is to separate hype from hope.

Also, AT&T has been doing virtualization for nearly 10 years now, so
> perhaps you were just not paying attention

But the point is just that: how serious is this progression towards
cloud-native, if so much effort was put in to virtualization?

Incidentally, AT&T's Brian Bearden was present here
<https://intelvs.on24.com/vshow/inteldcgevents/#content/2393080>: just
listen to how he defended Intel's containerization drive @24:56.

>
>
On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 4:33 PM Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:21 AM Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org>
> wrote:
>
>> The surprise for me regards Intel's (and the entire Cloud Native
>> Computing Foundation's?) readiness to move past network functions run on
>> VMs
>> and towards network functions run as microservices in containers.
>>
>> See, for example, Azhar Sayeed's (Red Hat) contribution here
>> <https://www.lightreading.com/webinar.asp?webinar_id=1608>@15:33.
>>
>
> Be careful not to confuse vendors pumping stuff with whats actually
> deployed.
>
> Also, AT&T has been doing virtualization for nearly 10 years now, so
> perhaps you were just not paying attention
>
>
> https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/at-t-target-for-virtualizing-75-its-network-by-2020
>
> Not sure it has helped ATT in any meaningful way, their stock price is
> the same it was in 2015.
>
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Etienne
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:35 PM Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/Aug/20 11:23, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
>>>
>>> Over the past few weeks, I've attended webinars and watched videos
>>> organized by Intel.
>>> These activities have centred on 5G and examined applications (like
>>> "visual cloud" and "gaming"),
>>> as well as segment-oriented aspects (like edge networks, 5G RAN and 5G
>>> Core).
>>>
>>> I am stunned (no hyperbole) by the emphasis on Kubernetes in particular,
>>> and cloud-native computing in general.
>>> Equally stunning (for me), public telecommunications networks have been
>>> portrayed
>>> as having a history that moved from integrated software and hardware,
>>> to virtualization and now to cloud-native computing.
>>> See, for example Alex Quach, here
>>> <https://www.telecomtv.com/content/intel-vsummit-5g-ran-5g-core/the-5g-core-is-vital-to-deliver-the-promise-of-5g-39164/> @10:30).
>>> I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming
>>> obsolete.
>>>
>>> Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?
>>>
>>>
>>> In the early dawn of SDN, where it was cool to have the RP's in Beirut
>>> and the line cards in Lagos, the industry quickly realized that was not
>>> entirely feasible.
>>>
>>> If you are looking at over-the-top services, so-called cloud-native
>>> computing makes sense in order to deliver that value accordingly, and with
>>> agility. But as it pertains to actual network transport, I'm not yet sure
>>> the industry is at the stage where we are confident enough to decompose
>>> packet forwarding through a cloud.
>>>
>>> Network operators are more likely to keep using kit that integrates
>>> forwarding hardware as well as a NOS, as no amount of cloud architecting is
>>> going to rival a 100Gbps purpose-built port, for example.
>>>
>>> Suffice it to say, there was a time when folk were considering running
>>> their critical infrastructure (such as your route reflectors) in AWS or
>>> similar. I'm not quite sure public clouds are at that level of confidence
>>> yet. So if some kind of cloud-native infrastructure is to be considered for
>>> critical infrastructure, I highly suspect it will be in-house.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, for any new budding entrepreneurs that want to get
>>> into the mobile game with as little cost as possible, there is a huge
>>> opportunity to do so by building all that infrastructure in an on-prem
>>> cloud-native architecture, and offer packet forwarding using
>>> general-purpose hardware provided they don't exceed their expectations.
>>> This way, they wouldn't have to deal with the high costs traditional
>>> vendors (Ericsson, Nokia, Huawei, Siemens, ZTE, e.t.c.) impose. Granted, it
>>> would be small scale, but maybe that is the business model. And in an
>>> industry where capex is fast out-pacing revenue, it would be the mobile
>>> network equivalent of low-cost carrier airlines.
>>>
>>> I very well could be talking out the side of my neck, but my prediction
>>> is mobile operators will be optimistic but cautious. I reckon a healthy mix
>>> between cloud-native and tried & tested practices.
>>>
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
>> Assistant Lecturer
>> Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
>> Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
>> University of Malta
>> Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
>>
>

--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
On 1/Aug/20 16:33, Ca By wrote:

>
> Be careful not to confuse vendors pumping stuff with whats actually
> deployed.

Words of wisdom.

Mark.
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
On 1/Aug/20 16:52, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
> But the point is just that: how serious is this progression towards
> cloud-native, if so much effort was put in to virtualization?

I suspect that if a significant amount of investment has already gone
into classic NFV, and for the most part, it's working reasonably well,
an operation would need to be seriously bored or have tons of cash and
time around to uproot all of that work and change things around without
some compelling technical or commercial reason to do so.

Despite the NFV world being well bedded in, it's still an evolving piece
of tech., and this is one field where operators are prone to spending
multiple times on the same thing, as they realize the previous decision
fell out of favour with the community or their favorite vendor.

I've seen it happen right here in South Africa, when a company built an
"SDN" platform 7 different times in 3 years as the industry kept
oscillating; going through whatever "SDN" platform vendors pushed, what
the open community was putting out, OpenStack, e.t.c.

They eventually closed down that side of the business, this year.

So for greenfield sites, maybe. But for existing installations that have
been around a while, I guess the transition to "cloud-native" might be a
bit of an ask, given the industry's history on this.

Mark.
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
>
> I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming
> obsolete.
> Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?
>

Virtualization is not becoming obsolete ... quite reverse in fact in all
types of deployments I can see around.

The point is that VM provides hardware virtualization while kubernetes with
containers virtualize OS apps and services are running on in isolation.

Clearly to virtualize operating systems as long as your level of
virtualization mainly in terms of security and resource consumption
isolation & reservation is satisfactory is a much better and lighter
option.

Thx,
R.
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
>
> Clearly to virtualize operating systems as long as your level of
> virtualization mainly in terms of security and resource consumption
> isolation & reservation is satisfactory is a much better and lighter
> option.
>

That pretty much sums up Intel's view.

To quote an Intel executive I was corresponding with:

"The purpose of the paper was to showcase how Communication Service
Providers can move to a more nimble and future proof microservices based
network architecture with cloud native functions, via container deployment
methodologies versus virtual machines. The paper cites many benefits of
moving to a microservices architecture beyond whether it is done in a VM
environment or cloud native. We believe the 5G networks of the future will
benefit greatly by implementing such an approach to deploying new services."

The paper referred to is this one
<https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/communications/why-containers-and-cloud-native-functions-paper.html>
.

Cheers,

Etienne

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 6:23 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming
>> obsolete.
>> Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?
>>
>
> Virtualization is not becoming obsolete ... quite reverse in fact in all
> types of deployments I can see around.
>
> The point is that VM provides hardware virtualization while kubernetes
> with containers virtualize OS apps and services are running on in
> isolation.
>
> Clearly to virtualize operating systems as long as your level of
> virtualization mainly in terms of security and resource consumption
> isolation & reservation is satisfactory is a much better and lighter
> option.
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
>


--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
An operating system is just a high-level machine. That the M-plane in VM is implemented in software isn’t relevant, as pretty much all hardware CPUs are implemented in software as well, so VM is just virtualizing software already.

Containerization is VM, but using the OS as the M-plane As long as the OS delivers all the functions needed by applications, it’s a perfectly reasonable, and even preferable, plane to virtualize.

-mel

On Aug 1, 2020, at 11:12 AM, Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org> wrote:

?
Clearly to virtualize operating systems as long as your level of virtualization mainly in terms of security and resource consumption isolation & reservation is satisfactory is a much better and lighter option.

That pretty much sums up Intel's view.

To quote an Intel executive I was corresponding with:

"The purpose of the paper was to showcase how Communication Service Providers can move to a more nimble and future proof microservices based network architecture with cloud native functions, via container deployment methodologies versus virtual machines. The paper cites many benefits of moving to a microservices architecture beyond whether it is done in a VM environment or cloud native. We believe the 5G networks of the future will benefit greatly by implementing such an approach to deploying new services."

The paper referred to is this one<https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/communications/why-containers-and-cloud-native-functions-paper.html>.

Cheers,

Etienne

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 6:23 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming obsolete.
Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?

Virtualization is not becoming obsolete ... quite reverse in fact in all types of deployments I can see around.

The point is that VM provides hardware virtualization while kubernetes with containers virtualize OS apps and services are running on in isolation.

Clearly to virtualize operating systems as long as your level of virtualization mainly in terms of security and resource consumption isolation & reservation is satisfactory is a much better and lighter option.

Thx,
R.



--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
On 1/Aug/20 18:23, Robert Raszuk wrote:

> Virtualization is not becoming obsolete ... quite reverse in fact in
> all types of deployments I can see around. 
>
> The point is that VM provides hardware virtualization while kubernetes
> with containers virtualize OS apps and services are running on in
> isolation. 
>
> Clearly to virtualize operating systems as long as your level of
> virtualization mainly in terms of security and resource consumption
> isolation & reservation is satisfactory is a much better and lighter
> option.

I see cloud-native as NFV++. It requires some adjustment to how classic
NFV has been deployed, and that comes down to whether operators
(especially those who err on the side of network operations rather than
services) see value in upgrading their stack to cloud-native.

If you're a Netflix or an Uber, sure, a cloud-native architecture is
probably the only way you can scale. But if you are simple network
operators who focus more on pushing packets than over-the-top services,
particularly if you already have some NFV, making the move to
cloud-native/NFV++ is a whole consideration.

Mark.
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
Containerization and k8s aren't so much a shift away from virtualization
(horizontally), but a shift up from virtualization (vertically). It is a broader
theme than 5G - initially gaining traction with SaaS companies, and recently
appearing in NFV scenarios.

Under the hood, k8s relies on an operating system which in turn typically runs
inside a VM on a physical compute resource. Virtualization, thus, isn't obsolete
- but its implementation specifics lose importance.

The operator describes her desired configuration state once in the form of k8s
objects, and is ready to deploy a service to any k8s platform instance. This can
be an A-list k8s-as-a-service provider such as Amazon EKS, Google GKE, or Azure
AKS. It can also be an in-house VMWare Tanzu or Mirantis Cloud Platform
deployment that runs on the operator's own bare metal in their own data center.

This additional abstraction, however, is only magical when someone else gets
paid to deal with the detail. For an operator's in-house IT team, introducing
k8s can be a net increase in complexity. Now, not only do they have to deal with
all traditional IT challenges up to and including virtualization (life-cycle of
hardware, physical network, storage, virtualization, operating system,
licensing, backups, ...) - but also must map the k8s platform instance to these
underlying elements and ensure the correct functioning of the k8s platform itself.

Solutions are emerging (e.g. Amazon AWS Outposts, which allow an operator to
bring a micro Amazon region in-house), but we'll likely continue to see NFV
vendors supporting both VM-targetted and k8s-targetted deployment scenarios for
some time.

--
Sincerely,

David Monosov

On 01/08/2020 11:23, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Over the past few weeks, I've attended webinars and watched videos organized by
> Intel. 
> These activities have centred on 5G and examined applications (like "visual
> cloud" and "gaming"), 
> as well as segment-oriented aspects (like edge networks, 5G RAN and 5G Core).
>
> I am stunned (no hyperbole) by the emphasis on Kubernetes in particular,
> and cloud-native computing in general. 
> Equally stunning (for me), public telecommunications networks have been portrayed 
> as having a history that moved from integrated software and hardware, 
> to virtualization and now to cloud-native computing. 
> See, for example Alex Quach, here
> <https://www.telecomtv.com/content/intel-vsummit-5g-ran-5g-core/the-5g-core-is-vital-to-deliver-the-promise-of-5g-39164/> @10:30).
> I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming obsolete.
>
> Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?
>
>
> Cheers all,
>
> Etienne
>
> --
> Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
> Assistant Lecturer
> Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
> Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
> University of Malta
> Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasqualeI 
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
--- edepa@ieee.org wrote:
From: Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org>

See, for example, Azhar Sayeed's (Red Hat) contribution here
<https://www.lightreading.com/webinar.asp?webinar_id=1608>@15:33.
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scott
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
The short answer is that the "Cloud Native Computing" folks need to talk to
the Intel Embedded Systems Application engineers to discover that micro
services have been running on Intel hardware in (non-standard) containers
for years. We call it real time computing, process control,... Current
multi Terabit Ethernet interfaces require specialized hardware and
interfaces that will connect fiber optics to clouds but cannot be run on
clouds.

Some comments on Software Controlled Telecomm (/datacom) networking. When
DTMF was invented the telco used in band signaling for call control. Kevin
Mitnick et. al. designed red and black boxes to control the telco systems
so the telcos moved call control out of band. They created SIgnal Control
Points which managed the actual circuit switch hardware to route calls or
eventually 64kbps digital paths and this protocol was SS#7. There were six
to seven volumes of CLASS services that were enabled by SS#7 which ran on
UNIX systems developed by Bell Labs. In the mid seventies, I worked on VM
systems from DEC and Apollo of which Apollo had the better virtualization
that worked across the network and was the first "cloud" system that I
worked on.

In the mid nineties, I had worked on large Gigabit/Terabit routers but
again the control plane was part of the data plane until ATM based
networks could use out of band control to setup a SVC between input port
and output port and switch the IP packets instead of routing them achieving
network end to end delays of less than milliseconds. VLAN and MPLS
protocols were developed to switch packets in the backbone of the networks
and not to route them.

In 2000 we put our first pre-standard cloud together with multi Gigabit
routers and Sun workstations at 45 PoPs in the US, 3 in Asia and 6 in
Europe and implemented a "cloud" O/S. Our fastest links were 10 Gbps. Now
we can have 2-50 Tbps per fiber using Superchannel DWDM technology between
PoP, data centers or cell towers. Network control functions can dynamically
change by using Dynamic Reprogrammable EPROMs from companies like Xilinx
and Intel to repurpose firmware control and device functions.

Embedded systems have implemented "micro services" for years as that is how
you handle interrupt driven real time control. We call this a context
switch which is still hardware CPU dependent. As far as I know, current
standard containers do not handle real time CPU interrupts or do they allow
very tight timing reponse loops within the standard containers?

Certain 5G proposals are discussing network slicing et al to virtualize
control functions that can work better without virtualization. Current 5G
protocol submissions that I have reviewed are way too complex to work out
in the real world on real networks, maintained by union labor. (This is not
a dig at union labor, as they are some of the best trained techs.) :)

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 8:35 AM Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 1/Aug/20 11:23, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
>
> Over the past few weeks, I've attended webinars and watched videos
> organized by Intel.
> These activities have centred on 5G and examined applications (like
> "visual cloud" and "gaming"),
> as well as segment-oriented aspects (like edge networks, 5G RAN and 5G
> Core).
>
> I am stunned (no hyperbole) by the emphasis on Kubernetes in particular,
> and cloud-native computing in general.
> Equally stunning (for me), public telecommunications networks have been
> portrayed
> as having a history that moved from integrated software and hardware,
> to virtualization and now to cloud-native computing.
> See, for example Alex Quach, here
> <https://www.telecomtv.com/content/intel-vsummit-5g-ran-5g-core/the-5g-core-is-vital-to-deliver-the-promise-of-5g-39164/> @10:30).
> I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming
> obsolete.
>
> Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?
>
>
> In the early dawn of SDN, where it was cool to have the RP's in Beirut and
> the line cards in Lagos, the industry quickly realized that was not
> entirely feasible.
>
> If you are looking at over-the-top services, so-called cloud-native
> computing makes sense in order to deliver that value accordingly, and with
> agility. But as it pertains to actual network transport, I'm not yet sure
> the industry is at the stage where we are confident enough to decompose
> packet forwarding through a cloud.
>
> Network operators are more likely to keep using kit that integrates
> forwarding hardware as well as a NOS, as no amount of cloud architecting is
> going to rival a 100Gbps purpose-built port, for example.
>
> Suffice it to say, there was a time when folk were considering running
> their critical infrastructure (such as your route reflectors) in AWS or
> similar. I'm not quite sure public clouds are at that level of confidence
> yet. So if some kind of cloud-native infrastructure is to be considered for
> critical infrastructure, I highly suspect it will be in-house.
>
> On the other hand, for any new budding entrepreneurs that want to get into
> the mobile game with as little cost as possible, there is a huge
> opportunity to do so by building all that infrastructure in an on-prem
> cloud-native architecture, and offer packet forwarding using
> general-purpose hardware provided they don't exceed their expectations.
> This way, they wouldn't have to deal with the high costs traditional
> vendors (Ericsson, Nokia, Huawei, Siemens, ZTE, e.t.c.) impose. Granted, it
> would be small scale, but maybe that is the business model. And in an
> industry where capex is fast out-pacing revenue, it would be the mobile
> network equivalent of low-cost carrier airlines.
>
> I very well could be talking out the side of my neck, but my prediction is
> mobile operators will be optimistic but cautious. I reckon a healthy mix
> between cloud-native and tried & tested practices.
>
> Mark.
>
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
Buzzwords have a limited life before the vendors need to make up something else to invoice you for.




-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Etienne-Victor Depasquale" <edepa@ieee.org>
To: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2020 4:23:00 AM
Subject: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G?


Hi folks,


Over the past few weeks, I've attended webinars and watched videos organized by Intel.
These activities have centred on 5G and examined applications (like "visual cloud" and "gaming"),
as well as segment-oriented aspects (like edge networks, 5G RAN and 5G Core).


I am stunned (no hyperbole) by the emphasis on Kubernetes in particular,
and cloud-native computing in general.
Equally stunning (for me), public telecommunications networks have been portrayed
as having a history that moved from integrated software and hardware,
to virtualization and now to cloud-native computing.
See, for example Alex Quach, here @10:30). I reason that Intel's implication is that virtualization is becoming obsolete.


Would anyone care to let me know his thoughts on this prediction?




Cheers all,


Etienne

--


Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale I
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
In article <20200801143522.E25A8AB6@m0117164.ppops.net> you write:
>--- edepa@ieee.org wrote:
>From: Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org>
>
>See, for example, Azhar Sayeed's (Red Hat) contribution here
><https://www.lightreading.com/webinar.asp?webinar_id=1608>@15:33.
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Don't send links to this list that require one to register
>to read the article and then say, "By registering for our
>site, your email will be added to our promotions list" and
>"Occasionally our trusted partners may want to send you
>information about exciting new products and services"
>
>No one's going to click on that!

Sure we are. That's what mailinator is for.

R's,
John
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
Maybe I am off topic a little bit here and i'd like to be educated if i am
wrong but I think those 5G applications will move from VMs into
containers/microservices when their vendors see a business case to
rearchitect them, maybe its already happening as we speak.

On the other side of that coin is that product managers of these 5G apps
seeing the margins on their apps diminish when they slice them to a form
that allows other "orchestrators" to deploy them.

Another side is that the software engineers working on these Apps have a
lot more prioritized items/things to develop (real core functions) so they
will delay this transformation.

However, some CSPs are doing well putting a wrapper/UX around Mobility
(e.g: Twilio)

Cheers

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 6:36 PM John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:

> In article <20200801143522.E25A8AB6@m0117164.ppops.net> you write:
> >--- edepa@ieee.org wrote:
> >From: Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org>
> >
> >See, for example, Azhar Sayeed's (Red Hat) contribution here
> ><https://www.lightreading.com/webinar.asp?webinar_id=1608>@15:33.
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >Don't send links to this list that require one to register
> >to read the article and then say, "By registering for our
> >site, your email will be added to our promotions list" and
> >"Occasionally our trusted partners may want to send you
> >information about exciting new products and services"
> >
> >No one's going to click on that!
>
> Sure we are. That's what mailinator is for.
>
> R's,
> John
>
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that anyone would get ruffled.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 11:38 PM Scott Weeks <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote:

>
>
> --- edepa@ieee.org wrote:
> From: Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org>
>
> See, for example, Azhar Sayeed's (Red Hat) contribution here
> <https://www.lightreading.com/webinar.asp?webinar_id=1608>@15:33.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Don't send links to this list that require one to register
> to read the article and then say, "By registering for our
> site, your email will be added to our promotions list" and
> "Occasionally our trusted partners may want to send you
> information about exciting new products and services"
>
> No one's going to click on that!
>
> scott
>


--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
On 1/Aug/20 23:53, John Lee wrote:

>
> In 2000 we put our first pre-standard cloud together with multi
> Gigabit routers and Sun workstations at 45 PoPs in the US, 3 in Asia
> and 6 in Europe and implemented a "cloud" O/S. Our fastest links were
> 10 Gbps. Now we can have 2-50 Tbps per fiber using Superchannel DWDM
> technology between PoP, data centers or cell towers. Network control
> functions can dynamically change by using Dynamic Reprogrammable
> EPROMs from companies like Xilinx and Intel to repurpose firmware
> control and device functions.

I believe that if a system has a single (and often simple) function, as
in the case of DWDM, you can have an off-site control plane to decide
what the network should transport.

The problem with IP networks is that you get multiple services that they
need to carry at various layers of the stack, that it becomes tricky not
to have some kind of localized control plane to ensure the right
intelligence is onboard to advise the data plane about what to do, in a
changing network environment.

While we can do this with a VM on a server, the server's NIC lets us
down when we need to push 100's of Gbps or 10's of Tbps.


> Certain 5G proposals are discussing network slicing et al to
> virtualize control functions that can work better without
> virtualization. Current 5G protocol submissions that I have reviewed
> are way too complex to work out in the real world on real networks,
> maintained by union labor. (This is not a dig at union labor, as they
> are some of the best trained techs.) :)

In a world where user traffic is exceedingly moving away from private
networks and on to the the public Internet, I struggle to understand how
5G's "network slicing" is going to deliver what it promises, when the
network is merely seen as a means to get users to what they want. In
most cases, what they want will not be hosted locally within the mobile
network, making discrete SLR's as prescribed by network slicing,
somewhat useless.

With all the bells & whistles 5G is claiming will change the world, I
just don't see how that will work as more services move into
over-the-top public clouds.

Mark.
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
There's always someone ruffled about something. Don't give it a second thought.




-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Etienne-Victor Depasquale" <edepa@ieee.org>
To: surfer@mauigateway.com
Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 2:42:11 AM
Subject: Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G?


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that anyone would get ruffled.


On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 11:38 PM Scott Weeks < surfer@mauigateway.com > wrote:




--- edepa@ieee.org wrote:
From: Etienne-Victor Depasquale < edepa@ieee.org >

See, for example, Azhar Sayeed's (Red Hat) contribution here
< https://www.lightreading.com/webinar.asp?webinar_id=1608 >@15:33.
------------------------------------------------------------


Don't send links to this list that require one to register
to read the article and then say, "By registering for our
site, your email will be added to our promotions list" and
"Occasionally our trusted partners may want to send you
information about exciting new products and services"

No one's going to click on that!

scott





--


Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
On 2/Aug/20 06:51, Ahmed elBorno wrote:
> Maybe I am off topic a little bit here and i'd like to be educated if
> i am wrong but I think those 5G applications will move from VMs into
> containers/microservices when their vendors see a business case to
> rearchitect them, maybe its already happening as we speak.

I'm still trying to figure out what "these 5G applications" are :-).


>
> On the other side of that coin is that product managers of these 5G
> apps seeing the margins on their apps diminish when they slice them to
> a form that allows other "orchestrators" to deploy them.

My understanding of "network slicing" is that an operator lets an MVNO
ride their network (happens today already), and that MVNO can further
"slice" their portion of the operators network to deliver different
performance levels for the different services they offer down to the
end-user.

Still not sure how this will work considering a great deal of the global
Internet is for services that live on the public Internet, and many
specialized/private services would typically still run over fibre. I
know we'd all like to see heart surgery over 5G, but something tells me
if you can afford it, the hospital can afford some fibre :-).

Perhaps M2M may have a use-case, but that's working reasonably well on
4G today, unless we expect to see a massive jump in performance with the
marginal improvement in radio latency between device and 5G tower.


>
> Another side is that the software engineers working on these Apps have
> a lot more prioritized items/things to develop (real core functions)
> so they will delay this transformation.

This is the crux of the issue.

Mark.
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
>
> Still not sure how this will work considering a great deal of the global
> Internet is for services that live on the public Internet, and many
> specialized/private services would typically still run over fibre.
>

Is the following extract from this Heavy Reading white paper
<https://www.infinera.com/wp-content/uploads/HR-Operator-Strategies-for-5G-Transport-July-2020_WP.pdf>,
useful?

" For transport network slicing,
operators strongly prefer soft slicing with virtual private networks
(VPNs),
regardless of the VPN flavor.
Ranking at the top of the list was Layer 3 VPNs (selected by 66% of
respondents),
but Layer 2 VPNs, Ethernet VPNs (EVPNs), and segment routing
also ranked highly at 47%, 46%, and 46%, respectively.
The point is underscored by the low preferences among all of the hard
slicing technologies—
those that physically partition resources among slices.
Hard slicing options formed the bottom tier among preferences."

Etienne

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:42 AM Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/Aug/20 06:51, Ahmed elBorno wrote:
> > Maybe I am off topic a little bit here and i'd like to be educated if
> > i am wrong but I think those 5G applications will move from VMs into
> > containers/microservices when their vendors see a business case to
> > rearchitect them, maybe its already happening as we speak.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out what "these 5G applications" are :-).
>
>
> >
> > On the other side of that coin is that product managers of these 5G
> > apps seeing the margins on their apps diminish when they slice them to
> > a form that allows other "orchestrators" to deploy them.
>
> My understanding of "network slicing" is that an operator lets an MVNO
> ride their network (happens today already), and that MVNO can further
> "slice" their portion of the operators network to deliver different
> performance levels for the different services they offer down to the
> end-user.
>
> Still not sure how this will work considering a great deal of the global
> Internet is for services that live on the public Internet, and many
> specialized/private services would typically still run over fibre. I
> know we'd all like to see heart surgery over 5G, but something tells me
> if you can afford it, the hospital can afford some fibre :-).
>
> Perhaps M2M may have a use-case, but that's working reasonably well on
> 4G today, unless we expect to see a massive jump in performance with the
> marginal improvement in radio latency between device and 5G tower.
>
>
> >
> > Another side is that the software engineers working on these Apps have
> > a lot more prioritized items/things to develop (real core functions)
> > so they will delay this transformation.
>
> This is the crux of the issue.
>
> Mark.
>
>

--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
On 3/Aug/20 08:40, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:

> Is the following extract from this Heavy Reading white paper
> <https://www.infinera.com/wp-content/uploads/HR-Operator-Strategies-for-5G-Transport-July-2020_WP.pdf>,
> useful?
>
> " For transport network slicing, 
> operators strongly prefer soft slicing with virtual private networks
> (VPNs), 
> regardless of the VPN flavor.
> Ranking at the top of the list was Layer 3 VPNs (selected by 66% of
> respondents), 
> but Layer 2 VPNs, Ethernet VPNs (EVPNs), and segment routing 
> also ranked highly at 47%, 46%, and 46%, respectively. 
> The point is underscored by the low preferences among all of the hard
> slicing technologies— 
> those that physically partition resources among slices. 
> Hard slicing options formed the bottom tier among preferences."

Well, it's what I've been saying - we have tried & tested systems and
solutions that are already native to IP/MPLS networks. Why try to
reinvent network virtualization when there are plenty of existing
solutions in the wild for next to cheap? VLAN's. l2vpn's. l3vpn's. EVPN.
DWDM. And all the rest?

The whole fuss, for example, about the GRX vs. IPX all came down to
2Mbps private or public IP-based GTP tunnels vs. 100Mbps l3vpn's.

Mobile operators know how to make everyday protocols seem overly
complicated.

If we go by their nomenclature, the simple operators on this list have
been slicing infrastructure for yonks :-).

Mark.
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
I think that it's validation of QoS that really matters now.

If I were to base on this recent video from Keysight
<https://www.keysight.com/zz/en/events/america/webinars.html?D2C=2036435&isSocialSharing=Y&partnerref=emailShareFromGateway>
(warning:
requires registration),
then it seems that there's a lot of emphasis on making grounded claims
about the QoS that the operator sells.

Cheers,

Etienne

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:52 PM Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/Aug/20 08:40, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
>
> Is the following extract from this Heavy Reading white paper
> <https://www.infinera.com/wp-content/uploads/HR-Operator-Strategies-for-5G-Transport-July-2020_WP.pdf>,
> useful?
>
> " For transport network slicing,
> operators strongly prefer soft slicing with virtual private networks
> (VPNs),
> regardless of the VPN flavor.
> Ranking at the top of the list was Layer 3 VPNs (selected by 66% of
> respondents),
> but Layer 2 VPNs, Ethernet VPNs (EVPNs), and segment routing
> also ranked highly at 47%, 46%, and 46%, respectively.
> The point is underscored by the low preferences among all of the hard
> slicing technologies—
> those that physically partition resources among slices.
> Hard slicing options formed the bottom tier among preferences."
>
>
> Well, it's what I've been saying - we have tried & tested systems and
> solutions that are already native to IP/MPLS networks. Why try to reinvent
> network virtualization when there are plenty of existing solutions in the
> wild for next to cheap? VLAN's. l2vpn's. l3vpn's. EVPN. DWDM. And all the
> rest?
>
> The whole fuss, for example, about the GRX vs. IPX all came down to 2Mbps
> private or public IP-based GTP tunnels vs. 100Mbps l3vpn's.
>
> Mobile operators know how to make everyday protocols seem overly
> complicated.
>
> If we go by their nomenclature, the simple operators on this list have
> been slicing infrastructure for yonks :-).
>
> Mark.
>


--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Re: Has virtualization become obsolete in 5G? [ In reply to ]
How about hardware slicing support? such as switch, server and router
slicing? is this supported/desirable?

Djamel


On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:37 AM Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org>
wrote:

> I think that it's validation of QoS that really matters now.
>
> If I were to base on this recent video from Keysight
> <https://www.keysight.com/zz/en/events/america/webinars.html?D2C=2036435&isSocialSharing=Y&partnerref=emailShareFromGateway> (warning:
> requires registration),
> then it seems that there's a lot of emphasis on making grounded claims
> about the QoS that the operator sells.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Etienne
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:52 PM Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 3/Aug/20 08:40, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
>>
>> Is the following extract from this Heavy Reading white paper
>> <https://www.infinera.com/wp-content/uploads/HR-Operator-Strategies-for-5G-Transport-July-2020_WP.pdf>,
>> useful?
>>
>> " For transport network slicing,
>> operators strongly prefer soft slicing with virtual private networks
>> (VPNs),
>> regardless of the VPN flavor.
>> Ranking at the top of the list was Layer 3 VPNs (selected by 66% of
>> respondents),
>> but Layer 2 VPNs, Ethernet VPNs (EVPNs), and segment routing
>> also ranked highly at 47%, 46%, and 46%, respectively.
>> The point is underscored by the low preferences among all of the hard
>> slicing technologies—
>> those that physically partition resources among slices.
>> Hard slicing options formed the bottom tier among preferences."
>>
>>
>> Well, it's what I've been saying - we have tried & tested systems and
>> solutions that are already native to IP/MPLS networks. Why try to reinvent
>> network virtualization when there are plenty of existing solutions in the
>> wild for next to cheap? VLAN's. l2vpn's. l3vpn's. EVPN. DWDM. And all the
>> rest?
>>
>> The whole fuss, for example, about the GRX vs. IPX all came down to 2Mbps
>> private or public IP-based GTP tunnels vs. 100Mbps l3vpn's.
>>
>> Mobile operators know how to make everyday protocols seem overly
>> complicated.
>>
>> If we go by their nomenclature, the simple operators on this list have
>> been slicing infrastructure for yonks :-).
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>
>
> --
> Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
> Assistant Lecturer
> Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
> Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
> University of Malta
> Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
>

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