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Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, David W. Hankins wrote:

> I don't know how to ask this question without sounding mean, but did the
> graph spike out of zero, or did you start collecting two months ago?

It spiked out of zero as we put up our 6to4 and teredo relays approx two
months ago. I don't know where the traffic was before, probably at other
peoples 6to4 relays.

--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:55:01 -0000, Andy Davidson said:

> In the same way that in the UK, appliance manufacturers have been
> educating people about the analogue terrestrial TV switchoff by 2012,

Is your side of the pond any more ready than our side is for next Febuary's
drop-dead cutoff?
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
* David W. Hankins

> It is almost lunacy to deploy IPv6 in a customer-facing sense (note
> for example Google's choice to put its AAAA on a separate FQDN). At
> this point, I'd say people are still trying to figure out how clients
> will migrate to IPv6. Which seems like a pretty bad time to still be
> trying to figure that out, but ohwell.

Google has been testing this a bit on their main pages. Select quotes
from the presentation of their results:

> 0.238% of users have useful IPv6 connectivity (and prefer IPv6)
> 0.09% of users have broken IPv6 connectivity

The summary disagrees with you about the «almost lunacy» part:

> It's not that broken
> - ~0.09% clients lost, ~150ms extra latency - don't believe the FUD

The slides are here, they're worth a look in my opinion:

http://rosie.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-57/presentations/uploads/Thursday/Plenary 14:00/upl/Colitti-Global_IPv6_statistics_-_Measuring_the_current_state_of_IPv6_for_ordinary_users.xD5A.pdf

Best regards,
--
Tore Anderson
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
Google's statistics are using themselves as the subject, a fixed point
in the network. It's hard to guarantee that subjective experience is
going to be equal across the entirety of the network, but let us
presume for the purpose of discussion that they are.

I think the point in the final analysis for customer-facing FQDN's is;

1) How much in USD is 0.09% loss of sales/customer-experience/etc?

2) What amount in USD is acceptable to lose, in order to gain IPv6's
advantages? Be sure to include recurring support costs, abuse, and
engineering manhours for the design and deployment.

Note that the second question is a subjective cost/value analysis,
and the typical operator may not find much value in IPv6 (today).

So again, in summary, I absolutely think every network needs to be
getting IPv6 into their workshops. You have to be prepared for what's
coming. I'm still recommending a variety of caution in that first
deployment on production systems.

--
Ash bugud-gul durbatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
Why settle for the lesser evil? https://secure.isc.org/store/t-shirt/
--
David W. Hankins "If you don't do it right the first time,
Software Engineer you'll just have to do it again."
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc. -- Jack T. Hankins
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 03:55:01PM +0000, Andy Davidson wrote:
> Do you think that industry should be working to some kind of well supported
> / worldwide flag day when lots of popular resources add v6 records at the
> same time ?

This is a sound evolutionary tactic lemmings use. =)

But I'll take you one step simpler; get the industry to choose a day
where it will no longer be acceptable to treat IPv6 like an
experimental project. Sometime last year would have been great.

If you can do that, then the RRset changes would come naturally
afterwards.

--
Ash bugud-gul durbatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
Why settle for the lesser evil? https://secure.isc.org/store/t-shirt/
--
David W. Hankins "If you don't do it right the first time,
Software Engineer you'll just have to do it again."
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc. -- Jack T. Hankins
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
David W. Hankins wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 03:55:01PM +0000, Andy Davidson wrote:
>> Do you think that industry should be working to some kind of well supported
>> / worldwide flag day when lots of popular resources add v6 records at the
>> same time ?
>
> This is a sound evolutionary tactic lemmings use. =)

I know this is way OT, but I can't let it pass. The lemming suicide myth
was created by a very questionable Walt Disney documentary:

http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlife_news.view_article&issue_id=6&articles_id=56
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:41:01AM -0600, Mike Lewinski wrote:
>> This is a sound evolutionary tactic lemmings use. =)
>
> I know this is way OT, but I can't let it pass. The lemming suicide myth
> was created by a very questionable Walt Disney documentary:

This is also way OT, but I was actually thinking more of Lemmings(TM),
the video game, as I am not really very familiar with rodents.

We've already got sixxs and hurricane electric set as tunnel lemmings,
we can get through the IPv4 address shortfall by setting a variety of
other ISP's to explode and build bridges...

The only thing to iron out is: Who gets to be (golden) parachute
lemmings?

--
Ash bugud-gul durbatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
Why settle for the lesser evil? https://secure.isc.org/store/t-shirt/
--
David W. Hankins "If you don't do it right the first time,
Software Engineer you'll just have to do it again."
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc. -- Jack T. Hankins
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
David W. Hankins wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:41:01AM -0600, Mike Lewinski wrote:
>>> This is a sound evolutionary tactic lemmings use. =)
>> I know this is way OT, but I can't let it pass. The lemming suicide myth
>> was created by a very questionable Walt Disney documentary:
>
> This is also way OT, but I was actually thinking more of Lemmings(TM),
> the video game, as I am not really very familiar with rodents.
>
> We've already got sixxs and hurricane electric set as tunnel lemmings,
> we can get through the IPv4 address shortfall by setting a variety of
> other ISP's to explode and build bridges...

For the end-users who use those services, I am pretty sure it is more
the user playing the game (aka the services providing guidance), than
being the lemmings who just keep on running and commit suicide (aka the
networks who are not moving, getting experience and doing something).

Greets,
Jeroen
(Who still ranks Lemmings(tm) as one of the top games ever,
simple and way too much fun, Amiga Lemmings X-mas special anyone? :) )
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
ever heard of the concept "open market"

ipv4 address space delegations will just move from the rirs to places like
ebay, problem solved.

most of it is unused anyway (milnet, amateur radio ranges, etc)

--
HRH Sven Olaf Prinz von CyberBunker-Kamphuis, MP.

Minister of Telecommunications, Republic CyberBunker.

Phone: +49/163-4405069
Phone: +49/30-36731425
Skype: CB3ROB
MSN: sven@cb3rob.net
C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob

Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this
email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged
and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or
individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Jeroen Massar wrote:

> David W. Hankins wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:41:01AM -0600, Mike Lewinski wrote:
> >>> This is a sound evolutionary tactic lemmings use. =)
> >> I know this is way OT, but I can't let it pass. The lemming suicide myth
> >> was created by a very questionable Walt Disney documentary:
> >
> > This is also way OT, but I was actually thinking more of Lemmings(TM),
> > the video game, as I am not really very familiar with rodents.
> >
> > We've already got sixxs and hurricane electric set as tunnel lemmings,
> > we can get through the IPv4 address shortfall by setting a variety of
> > other ISP's to explode and build bridges...
>
> For the end-users who use those services, I am pretty sure it is more
> the user playing the game (aka the services providing guidance), than
> being the lemmings who just keep on running and commit suicide (aka the
> networks who are not moving, getting experience and doing something).
>
> Greets,
> Jeroen
> (Who still ranks Lemmings(tm) as one of the top games ever,
> simple and way too much fun, Amiga Lemmings X-mas special anyone? :) )
>
>
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, HRH Sven Olaf Prinz von CyberBunker-Kamphuis MP wrote:

> ever heard of the concept "open market"
>
> ipv4 address space delegations will just move from the rirs to places like
> ebay, problem solved.

Are you willing to pay premium to get global IPv4 address? Are you willing
to pay non-dynamic global IPv4 addresses for your servers?


>
> most of it is unused anyway (milnet, amateur radio ranges, etc)

Did you consider operational consequences? No prefix allocation database?
No routing database? Address collisions? Fighting for announcing more
specifics to use your allocated addresses?

Regards,
Janos Mohacsi
Re: Another driver for v6? [ In reply to ]
i'm slightly worried about feeding trolls here but it's sunday here.

HRH Sven Olaf Prinz von CyberBunker-Kamphuis MP <sven@cyberbunker.com>
writes:

> ever heard of the concept "open market"
>
> ipv4 address space delegations will just move from the rirs to places like
> ebay, problem solved.
>
> most of it is unused anyway (milnet, amateur radio ranges, etc)

the human, as a species in the animal kingdom, is known to be the kind of
animal who fouls its own nest and overruns its habitat. the idea of a
tipping point, whether it be for CO2 in the atmosphere or polar ice shelves
or explosively deaggregated IPv4 routing tables, does not occur in the
minds of individual decision makers. instead it's left to us "chicken
little" types, and the only way the individual decision makers ever make
their decisions on the basis of tipping points is if some kind of
"governance" makes them do so.
--
Paul Vixie

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