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Why don't you just take a step back and take a pill? How, precisely, does
"we might add it" mean "we're sitting around waiting on requests"? To me,
it sounds like "if we have spare time and find your problem interesting,
we might look at it". Scratch your own damned itches, and assuming not
all the MythTV developers are as cranky as you, maybe (I say MAYBE)
someone else will look at feature requests and find something that
interests them.

I apologize to the rest of the readers of this list, but I'm quite tired
of the snide, snotty, "my time is too important to deal with you people"
attitudes of some of the developers (I said "some", not "all".)

Dan, at _no_ point did I say _anything_ about _any_ of the developers
"chomoping at the bit waiting for people to demand more of their time".
These people aren't "demanding", they're "asking".

Huzzah for lanugage support! It's _fantastic_ that someone decided to
implement something on their own! I'm all in favor of it. The person who
implemented it did a wonderful thing by contributing. However, not all
people have the ability to code their desires.

As to the supposition that users shouldn't show interest in the wider
acceptance of a project (by way of feature requests) unless they pay for
it... I'm at a loss; I truely am. What's the problem with someone saying
"It sure would be nice if..."?

I'll tell you what _I_ think the problem is (and this could be way off
base). I think the problem is your bad attitude. You think that everyone
that has an idea for Myth is out to steal _your_ time from you. If you'd
stop to think about it, you might realize that these people have _no_
power over you. If you don't want to implement someone's ideaa, then
don't! But, what good does it do to discourage user suggestions? You
make the users feel like none of the developers cares one whit whether
anyone uses this software.. Maybe that's the case. Maybe all the
developers are just like you and don't care at all what users want. Maybe
they (the developers) want a "good 'ole boy's club" piece of software
that's only used by the 8 or 9 devs. Hell, I don't know. But you're sure
doing a good job of making _me_ think I've no nead of being subscribed to
the users list. If the OPs opinion isn't wanted, why would mine be? If
my opinions aren't even of _interest_ to the developers, obviously the
software wasn't meant for me.

There are alternatives to MythTV. I hope you learn to value your users
before they start abandoning Myth in favor of the other projects that just
_might_ be a little more welcoming to ideas. (No, not demands...
I-D-E-A-S)

I realize this seems a bit confrontational, but you seem to have
misconceptions about the non-devs. They're not your boss, project
manager, or even customer. They're the people that see your work and
value it, and they'd like to see it even better so that it becomes even
_more_ popular and useful.

Dan, I really hope you get a reality check and realize we (the users)
really do appreciate your work and are on your side. We (the users) would
like to see other things integrated, but we (the users) understand that
our suggestions aren't high on your priority list (if even on your list at
all... apparently they're not on _your_ list). We (the users) accept the
fact that you (the devs) won't code on things you don't find interesting
or useful to you, we (the users) don't _expect_ you to. We (the potential
devs) (I'd been giving some thoughts to contributing code myself, before
all this nastyness started.) can see your opinions and how you're regarded
by them (the users). Frankly, I'm not sure I want to be put in the same
sentance with you.... I'm not speaking for other potential developers, but
I'd just as soon not have users look at my name derisively because they
assume that I have the same goals and ideals (relating to the project) as
you.

Frankly, here's what I got from your post:

First:
"I'm a whiner that reads things that aren't there into other peoples posts."
-- for the record, at no point did I say anything about the developers
action or inaction. I suggested a dev "might" look at it, that's all.

Next:
"At one point, one person didn't get pissed when Issac said 'submit a
pacth', and it worked out well."
-- Fantastic. How many opportunities for improvement have been passed up
because the user couldn't do it, or the potential dev got pissed because
of the abrasive responses to requests?

And finally:
"You didn't pay for MythTV, so shut your pie hole."
-- That's a lovely sentiment. And the kicker is, I probably _would_ have
payed for MythTV. However, I doubt that if I'd have payed for the
software that you, specifically, would care any more than you do now. I
suspect I'd still get the same "You got what you paid for, shut your pie
hole." ... I could be wrong... I have been before.

Again, I apologize to the user base for this long, drawnout rant. I just
get testy at replies like Dan's.

--Phill W.

P.S. Oh, and Dan... I doubt I'll bother to reply back if you respond to
this, so don't take my lack of a reply as conceding to your "point(?)".

> Phill Wiggin wrote:
>> C'mon. It's a Feature Request, not a Feature Demand. Why get all ...
>> indignant (?) ... when someone points out something that might make
>> the project more usable? Why not just say, "If enough people need
>> this, we might add it in the future. In the mean time, you might try
> The problem is the "we". You presume that the developers and
> contributors on the project just sit around and wait for people to
> submit ideas. They don't. If the developers and contributors on the
> project have an itch, they scratch it.
>
> 1,000 people could request this feature, and I don't honestly see Isaac,
> Thor, Bruce, Matt, J Donavan, Chris, Kirby, Myself, or any of the other
> regular contributors chomping at the bit waiting for people to demand
> more of their time. The developers and contributors have an idea for
> something they'd like to see mythtv do, and they implement it. Take
> for example the language support, if I recall the thread way back when
> correctly; someone said they want to see the text translated into abc
> language. Isaac said something to the effect of, then impliment it and
> send in a patch. This person did, and the rest is history.
>
> If MythTV was a commercial product, there would be no problem with
> asking the developers, (whom you are paying by way of buying a license
> to the product) to impliment xyz feature. But the fact is, MythTV is a
> free, open source project. If their is a preticular feature you want,
> impliment it.
>
> -dan
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users



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S. Baker wrote:

>This issue comes up again, and once again set off by an un-helpful
>reply by Donovan.
>
Would you prefer it if I said "Hey we'll get right on it!" and then
didn't? I'm sorry if the reality of things is "unhelpful" to you. I
could have given the standard response "Sounds great we look forward to
your patch." would that be more helpful?

> It would be a lot more useful and friendly to
>mythtv users to keep a list of requests, so that developers have
>a target to shoot at,
>
The developers *do* have a target, our own personal itches. What part
of my original message didn't you get?

>These lists should be prioritized by
>the lead developer (think project manager).
>
Gee more work for Isaac, making a list of crap he's not interested in
just so folks (who are already getting something for n nothing) can feel
all warm and fuzzy?

>At the very
>least point the user to the code, and give some pointers.
>Giving them a 'I know everything already, and am going to ignore you'
>attitude is not helping the project at all.
>
It may not be helpful to the person making the request, but it doesn't
hurt the project. I'm *sorry* the developers don't jump to the beck and
call of the user base, but they do this for *free* and for *fun*. The
fact that non-contributers use Myth is pretty much incidental, you're
not paying for it and you're not adding to it, all you're doing is
consuming, asking for more and then getting pissy when you're told no.

>I have been a developer for a long time. I thought that a good
>way to get started with mythtv would be to install it and play
>with it a bit.
>
Yep perfectly reasonable.

> Next step: give some ideas for development, and
>see what people thought.
>
Had it been phrased as "Here's what I'm thinking of doing" you wouldn't
have gotten the response you did. As an FYI posting to the users list
with ideas for development is a bad idea. Not all the developers read
the user list on a regular basis (or at all).

>I immediately got a response from
>Donovan that I considered pretty rude (go read it and judge
>for yourself).
>
I explained to you the reality of MythTV development. I'm certain I was
blunt, but I don't think I was rude.. Though I find it hilarious that
I'm sitting here writing this while wearing a shirt that says "I don't
give a fuck if you're offended".

>It is probably the primary reason I just haven't
>found the time to take the next steps:
>
So I hurt your feelings and now you're going to sulk? For crying out
loud I *should* have flamed you then at least you'd have a reason to be
bitching.

>find a small project
>to work on (can't do that 'cause there isn't a TODO list anywhere
>to be found).
>
Find and itch and scratch it... How hard is that?

>Finally tackle something major. Possibly
>add some system-engineering to the project eventually (one of
>my current jobs).
>
>
Word of advice, if it ain't broke don't fix it unless there's a
seriously compelling reason to do so, and even then only if Isaac approves.

>Look around at other big open source projects. How many of them
>have a feature request list? A bug-tracking system? How many
>have a release plan, or at least a list of required issues
>to be resolved before the next release?
>
>

How many of them are MythTV?


>It is still likely that I will work on MythTV, but as I said
>above, my motivation is pretty low right now.
>
If my informing you that feature requests are frowned upon trashed your
motivation to the point where you don't feel like contributing you need
to get a much thicker skin before trying to contribute anyway.

>It is a great
>effort, and has come a long way. Discouraging users and
>developers from contributing in _any_ way does not help
>propel the project forward.
>
>
For the most part users don't contribute developers do. And developers
don't tend to make feature requests they supply patches.

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On Saturday 22 May 2004 02:10 pm, Phillip Wiggin wrote:
> Why don't you just take a step back and take a pill? How, precisely, does
> "we might add it" mean "we're sitting around waiting on requests"? To me,
> it sounds like "if we have spare time and find your problem interesting,
> we might look at it". Scratch your own damned itches, and assuming not
> all the MythTV developers are as cranky as you, maybe (I say MAYBE)
> someone else will look at feature requests and find something that
> interests them.

Can I declare this thread closed now? Please? People on both sides of the
argument are just getting nasty. I don't really _want_ to temporarily
moderate the list, but, I will if that's what it takes to get back to more
useful discussions.

Isaac
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Kevin Kuphal wrote:

> And don't misinterpret this, I have contributed code to the project, I
> do understand that no one wants to spend their free time working but
> instead codes from enjoyment and what they enjoy may not be in line
> with the users. But please, no one should shut the door on
> contributers here because it doesn't fit *their* vision of the
> project. By putting this out in the open people have been invited to
> come in. By putting out releases, non-developing users are encouraged
> to use the product. I just think that it shouldn't stop there. This
> project is too good to be seen by users as inaccessible or
> discouraging to their input.
>
We don't shut the door on contributers. Asking for a feature is not
contributing it's leeching. Had the MythVideo folder browser been
contributed instead of requested it would have received a much better
reaction.
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Phillip Wiggin wrote:

>Why don't you just take a step back and take a pill? How, precisely, does
>"we might add it" mean "we're sitting around waiting on requests"? To me,
>it sounds like "if we have spare time and find your problem interesting,
>we might look at it". Scratch your own damned itches, and assuming not
>all the MythTV developers are as cranky as you, maybe (I say MAYBE)
>someone else will look at feature requests and find something that
>interests them.
>
>

You know, we only start getting cranky when people like you get all
indignant when a feature request is met with a reminder that code speaks
louder than words.



>Dan, at _no_ point did I say _anything_ about _any_ of the developers
>"chomoping at the bit waiting for people to demand more of their time".
>These people aren't "demanding", they're "asking".
>
>
And they simply get told that in all likelihood their request isn't
going to be honored unless it's an important issue to a developer.


>Huzzah for lanugage support! It's _fantastic_ that someone decided to
>implement something on their own! I'm all in favor of it. The person who
>implemented it did a wonderful thing by contributing. However, not all
>people have the ability to code their desires.
>
>
And those people should get used to not having their desires met.


>As to the supposition that users shouldn't show interest in the wider
>acceptance of a project (by way of feature requests) unless they pay for
>it... I'm at a loss; I truely am. What's the problem with someone saying
>"It sure would be nice if..."?
>
>
Not a thing. What's the problem with reminding them that's it's
probably not going to happen?


>I'll tell you what _I_ think the problem is (and this could be way off
>base). I think the problem is your bad attitude. You think that everyone
>that has an idea for Myth is out to steal _your_ time from you. If you'd
>stop to think about it, you might realize that these people have _no_
>power over you. If you don't want to implement someone's ideaa, then
>don't! But, what good does it do to discourage user suggestions?
>
Hell I reccomended to the wiki folks that they start a user requests
section (instead of putting user request in the how to develop for
mythtv section) so developers could look over it if they were bored and
looking for something to do.

> You make the users feel like none of the developers cares one whit whether
>anyone uses this software.. Maybe that's the case. Maybe all the
>developers are just like you and don't care at all what users want.
>
We do care, and I personly have worked on user requests in the past.
But user requests take a back seat to developer's itches. That's just
the way it is.

>Maybe they (the developers) want a "good 'ole boy's club" piece of software
>that's only used by the 8 or 9 devs. Hell, I don't know. But you're sure
>doing a good job of making _me_ think I've no nead of being subscribed to
>the users list. If the OPs opinion isn't wanted, why would mine be? If
>my opinions aren't even of _interest_ to the developers, obviously the
>software wasn't meant for me.
>
>
At want point did your opinion factor into whether the software work or
not?


>There are alternatives to MythTV. I hope you learn to value your users
>before they start abandoning Myth in favor of the other projects that just
>_might_ be a little more welcoming to ideas. (No, not demands...
>I-D-E-A-S)
>
>
Oh for crying out loud. Please by all means install Windows, and one of
the PVR packages and see how they compare. Then try and feed feature
requests to *their* dev staff and see where you get. You might a "thank
you for your input" form letter if you're lucky.


>I realize this seems a bit confrontational, but you seem to have
>misconceptions about the non-devs. They're not your boss, project
>manager, or even customer. They're the people that see your work and
>value it, and they'd like to see it even better so that it becomes even
>_more_ popular and useful.
>
>
If you're willing to stop using Myth because a developer wouldn't
implement your feature, and told you as much then you've got issues.

>Dan, I really hope you get a reality check and realize we (the users)
>really do appreciate your work and are on your side.
>
we (the developers and contributors) thank you.

>We (the users) would like to see other things integrated, but we
>
As would we (the developers and contributors) just not necessarily the
same things you (the users) would.

>(the users) understand that our suggestions aren't high on your priority list (if even on your list at
>all... apparently they're not on _your_ list).
>
Then why do you (the users) get all pissy when we say that's not likely
your request will be fulfilled unless it's important enough to a developer.

>We (the users) accept the fact that you (the devs) won't code on things you don't find interesting
>or useful to you, we (the users) don't _expect_ you to.
>
Then why do you (the users) get all pissy when we say that's not likely
your request will be fulfilled unless it's important enough to a developer.

> We (the potential devs) (I'd been giving some thoughts to contributing code myself, before
>all this nastyness started.) can see your opinions and how you're regarded
>by them (the users).
>
Nobody was nasty to any user *until* said users started bitching about
being told that feature requests without code to back them up are
frowned on.


Here's the kicker, as I was mowing my lawn I started thinking about how
to implement this, as well as another MythVideo related request from a
use in #mythtv-users and had planned on starting on it tonight.
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> Asking for a feature is not contributing it's leeching. Had the
> MythVideo folder browser been contributed instead of requested it
> would have received a much better reaction.
> _______________________________________________

huh??? "Asking for a feature is not contributing it's leeching"?? your joking right??

it's not leeching! it's user interaction.. where the hell would software development be today if it weren't for things like putting software out there for, as example, "usability testing" and the like??

software is not only used by the developer writing that software.. its (hopefully) used by hundreds and thousands of people.. *those* peoples ideas on features and usability issues are *priceless* in terms of whether software will continue to be used.

Myth is an *amazing* application as far as I am concerned (and probably 99.99% of others on this list) and to keep it going forward *requires* that people use it and contribute their ideas and feature requests.

I am a developer.. but not a linux developer.. if I could contribute (code-wise) to this project I'd dedicate all my spare time to it (wife wouldn't be impressed.. but hey.. lol).. alas I can't do that.. but I certainly think there are other ways of supporting a project.. using and letting people know of their experiences, reporting bugs, suggesting improvements, helping others when they come across problems etc etc.. and this list is *full* of all of that..

I say again.. an amazing application.. and keep up the excellent work..

My 2p worth..

Craig




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Note: In no way shape or form should anything I say here be considered
a flame,attack or insult.

Phill Wiggin wrote:

> Users got irate because of the _way_ developers said "contribute code"
> it was rude and unhelpful.

There's a apparently a disconnect here between some of the developers
and some of the users is terms of what's considered rude. If a
developer says something like "Looks great, look forward to your
patches. " that's not being rude. It may be terse/short/blunt/to the
point but by and large developers aren't one to sugar coat things. I
kindly submit that the response *is* helpful, it lets the user know that
unless they do it themselves it's not likely to get done. The developer
*could* have said "you flaming sack of cow turds how dare you suggest
anything" but instead he gave a short and too-the-point answer.

Here's a good general rule: If a developer isn't swearing at you,
calling you names or questioning your intelligence he's not *trying* to
be rude. Things would go a lot smoother if non-developers would try to
not get offended unless it's perfectly clear that was the intent of the
developer. Because, frankly, we're always going to be blunt, crude,
sarcastic bastards.

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J. Donavan Stanley wrote:

> Note: In no way shape or form should anything I say here be
> considered a flame,attack or insult.

same goes for the reply.

> Phill Wiggin wrote:
>
>> Users got irate because of the _way_ developers said "contribute code"
>> it was rude and unhelpful.
>
>
> There's a apparently a disconnect here between some of the developers
> and some of the users is terms of what's considered rude. If a
> developer says something like "Looks great, look forward to your
> patches. " that's not being rude. It may be terse/short/blunt/to the
> point but by and large developers aren't one to sugar coat things. I
> kindly submit that the response *is* helpful, it lets the user know
> that unless they do it themselves it's not likely to get done. The
> developer *could* have said "you flaming sack of cow turds how dare
> you suggest anything" but instead he gave a short and too-the-point
> answer.
>
> Here's a good general rule: If a developer isn't swearing at you,
> calling you names or questioning your intelligence he's not *trying*
> to be rude. Things would go a lot smoother if non-developers would
> try to not get offended unless it's perfectly clear that was the
> intent of the developer. Because, frankly, we're always going to be
> blunt, crude, sarcastic bastards.

seconded!
(the sentiment and "not *trying* to be rude" bit of course - how *could*
you think I meant your last sentence ;) )

Adding the corollary:
If a user submits a wish, feature request, "great idea" or similar then
unless s/he appends "and do it NOW you lazy bastards" there's a good
probability that they're getting off their arses and doing what they
think is good: making helpful suggestions in case someone else hadn't
spotted that bit of useability.

(Being users, I grant you that they made not be adding much direct value)

And you have to admit - occasionally the suggestions get you thinking at
the oddest times - maybe even when mowing the lawn!

David

On Sat, 22 May 2004, Isaac Richards wrote:

> On Saturday 22 May 2004 12:14 am, S. Baker wrote:
> > (can't do that 'cause there isn't a TODO list anywhere
> > to be found).
>
> Bruce Markey just posted a short bug list to the -dev mailing list. A few of
> the items have been issues since the last release, if anyone's looking for
> something to do.
>
> Want to know what my TODO list is?
>
> - Add info to the bottom of the music selection screen (would have been pretty
> obvious to anyone using CVS mythmusic over the past few months that this was
> on there).
> - Finish going over the UI to make sure all of the various patches I applied
> from random people didn't make things look bad.
> - Fix whatever random bugs I find in the next few days.
> - Release 0.15.
> - Help Thor get mfd/mfe going and integrated into 0.16.
>
> And that's it. Want to know how long that's been my TODO list? About a month
> now. Want to know why? I'm pretty damn swamped. Then, when I do have a
> little time to work on Myth, I go read my friendly neighborhood -users list,
> and it's full of people demanding my time and insisting that I run my project
> in a certain way. (Please note, I'm not directing this at you, S. Baker).
>
> Random feature requests are an annoyance to me, especially poorly phrased ones
> -- I don't have enough time to work on what _I_ want to work on, let alone
> other people's suggestions.
>
> If you're a developer and want to work on something, don't start off with a
> feature request -- if you're making the request in the first place, why not
> start off with trying to add the feature yourself? An email with: 'I'd like
> to make it do X, but I'm not sure exactly how to begin' would be a very
> welcome change. As far as code cleanup, I'd be unlikely to accept a cleanup
> patch that just came out of the blue -- I'd want to have had some contact
> with the person first. I'm happy to answer development related questions on
> the IRC channel, or the -dev list.
>
> Isaac
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>

As I mentioned before, for my first set of ideas, I did look at the code,
decided I didn't have nearly enough experience with the code to implement
what I was thinking of, and turned it into a request instead. It's a
matter of how much time I have, versus the amount of work to get to
being productive.

I saw a couple of other posters hit some points that I was trying to
get to as well, much more clearly than I managed to: Feature requests
are not feature demands (if they become so, that is when the vitriol
should come out). TODO lists are not attacks on developers, and they
can be a very powerful tool. If the primary developer(s) don't want
to run a TODO list, let someone else sign up to do it, and when feature
requests come up it is that person's responsibility to make sure the
requests get added. This takes even less developer time than
what has been happening so far, and the people who like to see
a list of requests are much happier. Right now I see one simple
change to get to this point: instead of asking for code when someone
posts a feature request, point them at the wiki. It sounds like there
is already a volunteer to help keep it straight.

S. Baker

On Sat, 22 May 2004, J. Donavan Stanley wrote:

> S. Baker wrote:
>
> >This issue comes up again, and once again set off by an un-helpful
> >reply by Donovan.
> >
> Would you prefer it if I said "Hey we'll get right on it!" and then
> didn't? I'm sorry if the reality of things is "unhelpful" to you. I
> could have given the standard response "Sounds great we look forward to
> your patch." would that be more helpful?

It would be helpful if you pointed them to a TODO list and said it would
be added. A request for a feature does not equal a demand on your time.
It is simply a request. Someone else may come along and impliment it,
or the origional requestor may get tired of waiting and do it themself.
Or, you might agree that it sounds like a wonderful idea, and it becomes
your next itch. If the suggestion is never made, you will never know.
>
> > It would be a lot more useful and friendly to
> >mythtv users to keep a list of requests, so that developers have
> >a target to shoot at,
> >
> The developers *do* have a target, our own personal itches. What part
> of my original message didn't you get?

Oh, I got your origional message, loud and clear.

>
> >These lists should be prioritized by
> >the lead developer (think project manager).
> >
> Gee more work for Isaac, making a list of crap he's not interested in
> just so folks (who are already getting something for n nothing) can feel
> all warm and fuzzy?

It doesn't have to be prioritized, but if the lead developer wants to he
is the one that should. He should have the choice.

>
> >At the very
> >least point the user to the code, and give some pointers.
> >Giving them a 'I know everything already, and am going to ignore you'
> >attitude is not helping the project at all.
> >
> It may not be helpful to the person making the request, but it doesn't
> hurt the project. I'm *sorry* the developers don't jump to the beck and
> call of the user base, but they do this for *free* and for *fun*. The
> fact that non-contributers use Myth is pretty much incidental, you're
> not paying for it and you're not adding to it, all you're doing is
> consuming, asking for more and then getting pissy when you're told no.

It does hurt the project. It decided me that it was going to take more
work to contribute to this project than I currently had time for. Not
having a TODO list where I could select something easy to start with
kept me from contributing. I would guess there are others too.
>
> >I have been a developer for a long time. I thought that a good
> >way to get started with mythtv would be to install it and play
> >with it a bit.
> >
> Yep perfectly reasonable.
>
> > Next step: give some ideas for development, and
> >see what people thought.
> >
> Had it been phrased as "Here's what I'm thinking of doing" you wouldn't
> have gotten the response you did. As an FYI posting to the users list
> with ideas for development is a bad idea. Not all the developers read
> the user list on a regular basis (or at all).
>
> >I immediately got a response from
> >Donovan that I considered pretty rude (go read it and judge
> >for yourself).
> >
> I explained to you the reality of MythTV development. I'm certain I was
> blunt, but I don't think I was rude.. Though I find it hilarious that
> I'm sitting here writing this while wearing a shirt that says "I don't
> give a fuck if you're offended".
>
> >It is probably the primary reason I just haven't
> >found the time to take the next steps:
> >
> So I hurt your feelings and now you're going to sulk? For crying out
> loud I *should* have flamed you then at least you'd have a reason to be
> bitching.

Wow, what an amazing response. You made it more difficult to contribute,
thus I didn't feel I had the time it would take to be productive. Instead
I focused on something that was easier to deal with.
>
> >find a small project
> >to work on (can't do that 'cause there isn't a TODO list anywhere
> >to be found).
> >
> Find and itch and scratch it... How hard is that?

Pretty tough if the itches I keep thinking of are big projects. Perhaps
others think of easier things to do? Without a todo list, I'll never
know.

>
> >Finally tackle something major. Possibly
> >add some system-engineering to the project eventually (one of
> >my current jobs).
> >
> >
> Word of advice, if it ain't broke don't fix it unless there's a
> seriously compelling reason to do so, and even then only if Isaac approves.

So?

>
> >Look around at other big open source projects. How many of them
> >have a feature request list? A bug-tracking system? How many
> >have a release plan, or at least a list of required issues
> >to be resolved before the next release?
> >
> >
>
> How many of them are MythTV?

So? How many of them are Linux? How many are GCC?
>
>
> >It is still likely that I will work on MythTV, but as I said
> >above, my motivation is pretty low right now.
> >
> If my informing you that feature requests are frowned upon trashed your
> motivation to the point where you don't feel like contributing you need
> to get a much thicker skin before trying to contribute anyway.

It's not a matter of thin or thick skin. It's a matter of how much
time it costs to contribute. It's a matter of stifling the suggestions
of the creative that may never contribute code, but may test your software
for you, or come up with an idea that you can't imagine.

>
> >It is a great
> >effort, and has come a long way. Discouraging users and
> >developers from contributing in _any_ way does not help
> >propel the project forward.
> >
> >
> For the most part users don't contribute developers do. And developers
> don't tend to make feature requests they supply patches.

Here is the main problem. Everyone that sends an email to the mailing
list contributes. Developers contribute code. Users provide testing
and ideas for new features. Users, with a low enough barrier to entry
can become developers. Or they could write documentation. Or they
make a suggestion that developers jump on because it is a great idea
that they didn't think of. Given the right incentives. Attacking
suggestions, or taking the egalatarian attitude that 'only developers
contribute' is definitely hurting the MythTV project.

>
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>