Mailing List Archive

ATSC tuner advice wanted
Hi,

Long story short: Because of recent changes made by Cox, I'm planning to
cut my cable TV service and switch to a combination of streaming and OTA
recording. For the latter, I need an ATSC recording solution, but I'm
afraid I'm having difficulty navigating the sea of options, given
outdated Web pages, contradictory online information, confusing model
references, etc.

I'd like something that can record at least two independent channels
(not just two on the same transport stream), and I prefer something that
connects via USB or Ethernet, rather than as a plug-in card. I live far
enough away from the broadcast towers that signal strength is likely to
be weak on at least some stations, so if a tuner is known to have
problems with weak signals, I'd prefer to avoid it. (Would a 2-tuner
device be a better choice than a 4-tuner device for this reason?) I'm
currently running Ubuntu 20.04 on my main MythTV backend, but I may need
to run the tuner on another system that's running Ubuntu 21.04.

I've looked at a few tuners, but am uncertain about most of them:

* HDHomerun Flex Duo and Flex 4K -- These are both new enough that
I can't find any definitive information on whether they're supported
by MythTV.
* HDHomerun Connect Duo and Connect Quattro -- These seem to be the
predecessors to the above and the MythTV wiki claims they're
supported, but they're discontinued. I do see some available on
eBay, though.
* Hauppauge WinTV-quadHD USB -- Hauppauge's support page[1] specifies
that there's a PPA with drivers, but not for Ubuntu 21.04; and
online discussions I've found all seem to refer to the PCIe product
with a similar name, not the USB version, so I'm not confident it
really works.
* Hauppauge WinTV-quadHD PCIe -- This one at least seems to be
supported by Linux/MythTV, but as I said, I prefer an external USB
or Ethernet device, if possible.
* Hauppauge WinTV-dualHD -- There seem to be several versions of
this one with differing part numbers and varying support levels in
MythTV, which makes it hard for me to know if what I buy would
work at all.

At the moment, I'm leaning toward getting an HDHomerun Connect Duo or
Quattro on eBay; but if another option would work better (either from
the above list or something else I've overlooked), I'd appreciate some
guidance on the matter.

Thanks!

[1] https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/support/support_linux.html

--
Rod Smith
rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
> On Aug 21, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Rod Smith <mythtv@rodsbooks.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Long story short: Because of recent changes made by Cox, I'm planning to
> cut my cable TV service and switch to a combination of streaming and OTA
> recording. For the latter, I need an ATSC recording solution, but I'm
> afraid I'm having difficulty navigating the sea of options, given
> outdated Web pages, contradictory online information, confusing model
> references, etc.
I
I use 2 HDHR4-US tuners, each with 2 tuners. Mythtv likes these tuners, and does multi record on them just fine. After I add the initial tuner for each of the tuners(total 4) for the HDHR4s, I go back and an additional 4 multi rec virtual tuners.

The current HDHR tuners are HDHR5 2 tuner, HDHR5 4 tuner, and an HDHR5 with 2ATSC2.0 and 2 ATSC3.0 tuners.

In my area, ATSC3 is not available, and probably won’t be for several years. If I were starting new, I would get one of the 4 tuner HDHR5s and be done with it. :-)

I cut the cable in 2010, and have used HDHR3 as well as the current HDHR4 which is now serving me well.

Regards!


_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 3:04 PM Rod Smith <mythtv@rodsbooks.com> wrote:
> I live far enough away from the broadcast towers
> that signal strength is likely to be weak on at least
> some stations

None of the consumer based tuners tend to have
great RF tuner/demods (at least compared to
your average TV, which tend to have much better
RF devices). If you are at the edge of reception,
you will first need to focus on choosing the
proper antenna(s), preamp(s), and distribution
amp(s) so that your tuners can receive a good
signal. Note that too much of a good thing (RF)
can also be a problem (and if in the same line
one transmitter is a few miles away, and the
next is 70 miles away, you may need channel
specific adjustments). This can get very
complicated depending on your environment
and what frequencies the channels you want
to receive are using.

Along with asking any neigboors that are
using an antenna, one may wish to spend
some time on the forums at tvfool.com and
avsforum.com to find others that live in your
area that can tell you what works best for
them (of course, they are not you, and if
you have a tree in your yard that is perfectly
aligned with where you need to point the
antenna, your only solution may be to pull
out your Stihl).
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
On 8/21/21 8:00 AM, Rod Smith wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Long story short: Because of recent changes made by Cox, I'm planning to
> cut my cable TV service and switch to a combination of streaming and OTA
> recording. For the latter, I need an ATSC recording solution, but I'm
> afraid I'm having difficulty navigating the sea of options, given
> outdated Web pages, contradictory online information, confusing model
> references, etc.
>
I'm running the HDHR5-4K. MythTV does not fully support ATSC 3.0 yet, but the tuner works fine on MythTV for ATSC 2.0 channels.
I only have one ATSC 3.0 station that I am picking up off the back of my antenna, it comes in fine, but I don't watch it because
it is a low power religious station.

I have a setup with 3 antennas as I receive signals from 3 directions. The primary direction is Sutro Tower 40 miles away line
of sight.

I have FM stations much closer, and they broadcast with much more power than the TV stations I found that a pre-amp would
destroy the signal due to the FM being too strong. I am using an FM trap before a distribution amplifier to attenuate the FM
channels, and this is working well. The FM trap will damage channel 6 due to channel 6 being right next to the FM band, but that
is where my one ATSC 3.0 channel is, and in spite of it being a low power channel more than 10 miles away being picked up off
the back of the antenna, it comes in fine. ATSC 3.0 looks like it will be a good thing.

I have been using HDHR tuners since the first HDHR tuner came out. I am currently running 3 HDHR4-US tuners and one HDHR5-4K
tuner. They work well with MythTV.
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
On 21/08/2021 18:10, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 3:04 PM Rod Smith <mythtv@rodsbooks.com> wrote:
>> I live far enough away from the broadcast towers
>> that signal strength is likely to be weak on at least
>> some stations
>
> None of the consumer based tuners tend to have
> great RF tuner/demods (at least compared to
> your average TV, which tend to have much better
> RF devices). If you are at the edge of reception,
> you will first need to focus on choosing the
> proper antenna(s), preamp(s), and distribution
> amp(s) so that your tuners can receive a good
> signal. Note that too much of a good thing (RF)
> can also be a problem (and if in the same line
> one transmitter is a few miles away, and the
> next is 70 miles away, you may need channel
> specific adjustments). This can get very
> complicated depending on your environment
> and what frequencies the channels you want
> to receive are using.
>
> Along with asking any neigboors that are
> using an antenna, one may wish to spend
> some time on the forums at tvfool.com and
> avsforum.com to find others that live in your
> area that can tell you what works best for
> them (of course, they are not you, and if
> you have a tree in your yard that is perfectly
> aligned with where you need to point the
> antenna, your only solution may be to pull
> out your Stihl).

I asked a neighbour about the lopper he was using - 'was it Stihl?'

He 'thought it was aluminium'.

Sorry...




_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
> On 21 Aug 2021, at 11:00 pm, Rod Smith <mythtv@rodsbooks.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Long story short: Because of recent changes made by Cox, I'm planning to
> cut my cable TV service and switch to a combination of streaming and OTA
> recording. For the latter, I need an ATSC recording solution, but I'm
> afraid I'm having difficulty navigating the sea of options, given
> outdated Web pages, contradictory online information, confusing model
> references, etc.
>
> I'd like something that can record at least two independent channels
> (not just two on the same transport stream), and I prefer something that
> connects via USB or Ethernet, rather than as a plug-in card. I live far
> enough away from the broadcast towers that signal strength is likely to
> be weak on at least some stations, so if a tuner is known to have
> problems with weak signals, I'd prefer to avoid it. (Would a 2-tuner
> device be a better choice than a 4-tuner device for this reason?) I'm
> currently running Ubuntu 20.04 on my main MythTV backend, but I may need
> to run the tuner on another system that's running Ubuntu 21.04.
>
> I've looked at a few tuners, but am uncertain about most of them:
>
> * HDHomerun Flex Duo and Flex 4K -- These are both new enough that
> I can't find any definitive information on whether they're supported
> by MythTV.
> * HDHomerun Connect Duo and Connect Quattro -- These seem to be the
> predecessors to the above and the MythTV wiki claims they're
> supported, but they're discontinued. I do see some available on
> eBay, though.
> * Hauppauge WinTV-quadHD USB -- Hauppauge's support page[1] specifies
> that there's a PPA with drivers, but not for Ubuntu 21.04; and
> online discussions I've found all seem to refer to the PCIe product
> with a similar name, not the USB version, so I'm not confident it
> really works.
> * Hauppauge WinTV-quadHD PCIe -- This one at least seems to be
> supported by Linux/MythTV, but as I said, I prefer an external USB
> or Ethernet device, if possible.
> * Hauppauge WinTV-dualHD -- There seem to be several versions of
> this one with differing part numbers and varying support levels in
> MythTV, which makes it hard for me to know if what I buy would
> work at all.
>
> At the moment, I'm leaning toward getting an HDHomerun Connect Duo or
> Quattro on eBay; but if another option would work better (either from
> the above list or something else I've overlooked), I'd appreciate some
> guidance on the matter.
>

Long story, and long ago - so It *may* have changed - but I got a homerun quatro and found I had 4 channels only, I could not config 4 virtual channels extra. I ended up using 2 haupague WinTV dual dongles giving me 8 channels. But the homerun could be used for other apps on the network.
James

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 21 Aug 2021 17:10:22 +0000, you wrote:

>None of the consumer based tuners tend to have
>great RF tuner/demods (at least compared to
>your average TV, which tend to have much better
>RF devices).

The most likely cause of tuners appearing to be worse than TVs is that
most tuners these days come in multiples, or are used in multiples. To
get signal to each of the tuners, the incoming signal needs to be
split, so if you have two tuners in a unit and only one aerial
connection feeding it, each tuner will be getting just less than half
the signal that is coming in on the aerial connection. So a TV with
one aerial connection feeding one tuner will be getting twice as much
signal as each of the dual tuners. Splitting a signal four ways is
even worse. I think that it is probably a myth created by this effect
that makes people say that TV tuners are better. As far as I know,
manufacturers use the same chipsets in tuners and TVs.

Fortunately, a number of the latest tuners seem to have a decent fix
for this problem. Instead of just using passive splitters, they have
an amplifier/splitter, so each tuner gets fed a signal that is the
same level as the incoming signal. There will be a slight decrease in
signal quality from passing through the amplifier/splitter, but
because the chips doing this seem to use quality low noise processing,
the degradation is minimal. This is what my TBS-6909 (8 x DVB-S2) and
TBS-6209 (8 x DVB-T2/DVB-C) PCIe cards do, and the result is
excellent. I hope that the latest ATSC devices will be using this
technology too.

So when choosing a multi-tuner unit now, you need to be looking for
one that uses a builtin amplifier/splitter. But it is quite difficult
to tell from the advertising which ones do and which ones do not. Ones
with four or more tuners seem to be likely to be working this way, and
the more modern design the better as the chipsets that have the
amplifier/splitter are relatively new (maybe five years old?).

With manufacturers who do answer questions (SiliconDust?), I would ask
them and see what they say.

If you have multituner devices that do not have an amplifier/splitter
builtin, you will likely need to use your own low noise external
amplifier, and preferably one that has adjustable levels. These are
typically not the units you can buy retail. Retail units often use
low quality (higher noise) amplifiers and offer no controls at all.
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
On 8/22/21 12:06 AM, Stephen Worthington wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Aug 2021 17:10:22 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> None of the consumer based tuners tend to have
>> great RF tuner/demods (at least compared to
>> your average TV, which tend to have much better
>> RF devices).
> The most likely cause of tuners appearing to be worse than TVs is that
> most tuners these days come in multiples, or are used in multiples. To
> get signal to each of the tuners, the incoming signal needs to be
> split, so if you have two tuners in a unit and only one aerial
> connection feeding it, each tuner will be getting just less than half
> the signal that is coming in on the aerial connection. So a TV with
> one aerial connection feeding one tuner will be getting twice as much
> signal as each of the dual tuners. Splitting a signal four ways is
> even worse. I think that it is probably a myth created by this effect
> that makes people say that TV tuners are better. As far as I know,
> manufacturers use the same chipsets in tuners and TVs.
>
> Fortunately, a number of the latest tuners seem to have a decent fix
> for this problem. Instead of just using passive splitters, they have
> an amplifier/splitter, so each tuner gets fed a signal that is the
> same level as the incoming signal. There will be a slight decrease in
> signal quality from passing through the amplifier/splitter, but
> because the chips doing this seem to use quality low noise processing,
> the degradation is minimal. This is what my TBS-6909 (8 x DVB-S2) and
> TBS-6209 (8 x DVB-T2/DVB-C) PCIe cards do, and the result is
> excellent. I hope that the latest ATSC devices will be using this
> technology too.
>
> So when choosing a multi-tuner unit now, you need to be looking for
> one that uses a builtin amplifier/splitter. But it is quite difficult
> to tell from the advertising which ones do and which ones do not. Ones
> with four or more tuners seem to be likely to be working this way, and
> the more modern design the better as the chipsets that have the
> amplifier/splitter are relatively new (maybe five years old?).
>
> With manufacturers who do answer questions (SiliconDust?), I would ask
> them and see what they say.
>
> If you have multituner devices that do not have an amplifier/splitter
> builtin, you will likely need to use your own low noise external
> amplifier, and preferably one that has adjustable levels. These are
> typically not the units you can buy retail. Retail units often use
> low quality (higher noise) amplifiers and offer no controls at all.

I have a Silicondust HDHR Quatro running on V31 backend It was added
with default setting in the tuner and connection setting of mythtv-setup
with the exception of in tuners I turned off the EIT scanning. I added 4
tuners and 4 connections. However, I can have 4 shows recording with
overlapping times and occasionally see as many as 6 or 8 tuners in
action.  Particularly, if use the sub channels like 5_1, 5_2, 5_3.

This is the same behavior I see on a different backend with a Hauppauge
WinTV Quad PCIe card.

Jim A


_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
On 8/21/21 1:52 PM, Douglas Peale wrote:
> On 8/21/21 8:00 AM, Rod Smith wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Long story short: Because of recent changes made by Cox, I'm planning to
>> cut my cable TV service and switch to a combination of streaming and OTA
>> recording. For the latter, I need an ATSC recording solution, but I'm
>> afraid I'm having difficulty navigating the sea of options, given
>> outdated Web pages, contradictory online information, confusing model
>> references, etc.
>>
> I'm running the HDHR5-4K. MythTV does not fully support ATSC 3.0 yet,
> but the tuner works fine on MythTV for ATSC 2.0 channels.
...
> I have been using HDHR tuners since the first HDHR tuner came out. I am
> currently running 3 HDHR4-US tuners and one HDHR5-4K tuner. They work
> well with MythTV.

Thanks to everybody for their advice. FWIW, I decided to buy an
HDHomerun Flex 4K. It was supposed to arrive tomorrow, but it came
today, so I hooked it up. I got MythTV talking to it, and it seems to be
working well. I'm pulling in one or two fewer transports than my TV can
get. That may be because of weather issues, since it's raining right
now; or it could be the TV has a better tuner, as others have suggested
in this thread. I'm located about equidistant between the major Boston
and Providence stations, and I'm getting at least one of each of the
major networks, although the only PBS stations I've been able to get are
SD. (I'm getting 2_2 and 2_3 out of Boston, but not 2_1. I had the same
issue with my TV.) My Roku has a PBS app, so if I can't get an HD PBS,
I'll be able to use the Roku for PBS content I want to watch in HD.

I still need to fully configure the guide data. I've been using
SchedulesDirect, but for the moment I've set MythTV to use EIT data from
the HDHomerun Flex, which seems to be working, but is of course limited.

--
Rod Smith
rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
Re: ATSC tuner advice wanted [ In reply to ]
On 24/08/2021 04:01, Rod Smith wrote:
> On 8/21/21 1:52 PM, Douglas Peale wrote:
>> On 8/21/21 8:00 AM, Rod Smith wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Long story short: Because of recent changes made by Cox, I'm planning to
>>> cut my cable TV service and switch to a combination of streaming and OTA
>>> recording. For the latter, I need an ATSC recording solution, but I'm
>>> afraid I'm having difficulty navigating the sea of options, given
>>> outdated Web pages, contradictory online information, confusing model
>>> references, etc.
>>>
>> I'm running the HDHR5-4K. MythTV does not fully support ATSC 3.0 yet,
>> but the tuner works fine on MythTV for ATSC 2.0 channels.
> ...
>> I have been using HDHR tuners since the first HDHR tuner came out. I am
>> currently running 3 HDHR4-US tuners and one HDHR5-4K tuner. They work
>> well with MythTV.
>
> Thanks to everybody for their advice. FWIW, I decided to buy an
> HDHomerun Flex 4K. It was supposed to arrive tomorrow, but it came
> today, so I hooked it up. I got MythTV talking to it, and it seems to be
> working well. I'm pulling in one or two fewer transports than my TV can
> get. That may be because of weather issues, since it's raining right
> now; or it could be the TV has a better tuner, as others have suggested
> in this thread. I'm located about equidistant between the major Boston
> and Providence stations, and I'm getting at least one of each of the
> major networks, although the only PBS stations I've been able to get are
> SD. (I'm getting 2_2 and 2_3 out of Boston, but not 2_1. I had the same
> issue with my TV.) My Roku has a PBS app, so if I can't get an HD PBS,
> I'll be able to use the Roku for PBS content I want to watch in HD.
>
> I still need to fully configure the guide data. I've been using
> SchedulesDirect, but for the moment I've set MythTV to use EIT data from
> the HDHomerun Flex, which seems to be working, but is of course limited.
>
When you say you are 'between two stations' and get signals from both,
and are also using a TV tuner, it isn't clear what antenna and
distribution arrangements you have. I suspect that these may be more
important than your choice of hardware. There are general principles,
of course, but local circumstances are important too.
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org