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Advice on v31 installation?
Hi. I'm looking for some advice on installing v31. I'll be doing so
under Ubuntu 20.04.

I'm currently running a truly ancient version. I'll be installing on
an entirely separate machine and running both in parallel while I figure
out my v31 installation. To start with, I'm just going to set up a new
database, at least for testing; once I get everything working, I -might-
dump the new, test DB and try to migrate the old DB, but it's going to
be quite involved and I'm on a bit of a schedule before Comcast drops
support for my equally-ancient cable boxes, so I'll get the test system
running first and ask any questions about migration later.

(a) I don't want to interfere with the ancient myth's lineups (using DD)
in any way while setting up the new machine's lineups (presumably using
XMLTV). The two lineups will be -very- different because the two myths
will receive via very different hardware and have access to different
channels. I see that SD supports up to four lineups, but can I rely on
a new installation using a new lineup and not bashing the old one? How
are they differentiated? The SD web interface makes it look like I have
to pick a unique nearby zipcode (pretty sure that's what I did years
ago); is that the way? [.If I can't be sure, I can pay for a brand-new
account (a couple months or a year) to guarantee they stay separate,
although I just paid for a new year on the old one and I assume that
money's sunk. I'd rather use the existing SD acct, but only if safe.]

(b) Is it wise to use the Mythbuntu Control Panel to do the initial
setup, or should I install everything "by hand" without installing MCP?

(c) I've seen rumblings on the list re MySQL compatibility. Should I
preinstall MariaDB instead, and if I do, will MCP install MySQL anyway
or will it see that the dependency is satisfied if I install MariaDB
first? (And I assume if it installs MySQL I can just remove that and
leave/reinstall MariaDB, if MariaDB is currently the recommended DB?)

(d) Should I prefer the JSON or the SQLite versions of the XMLTV grabber?
If I use MCP, will it enforce a choice? Do I still have to worry about
configuring either grabber differently so it doesn't try to use gigs of
RAM? (I have a vague feeling that might have been solved between the
version of 31 prepackaged w/20.04 and the current version, but I haven't
checked when that may or may not have been fixed; the version the non-PPA
20.04 ships is claimed to be 2:31.0+fixes.20200323.9579662cdc-0ubuntu1.)

(e) I'll be using a Ceton 6ETH (or a couple of them) to capture.
I've stashed away a few sets of advice on this over the years, and have
already paired one with a CableCard and ensured that works. So far,
it/they will be sharing my network, although I hope to add Ethernet
ports to the production backend eventually to reduce packet contention.
I also have some 120mm fans for cooling it/them. Any other gotchas I
should be aware of?

(f) And in general---any other gotchas that spring to mind or things I
should be asking about?

Thanks!
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Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 10:35 AM <f-myth-users@media.mit.edu> wrote:

> Hi. I'm looking for some advice on installing v31. I'll be doing so
> under Ubuntu 20.04.
>
> I'm currently running a truly ancient version. I'll be installing on
> an entirely separate machine and running both in parallel while I figure
> out my v31 installation. To start with, I'm just going to set up a new
> database, at least for testing; once I get everything working, I -might-
> dump the new, test DB and try to migrate the old DB, but it's going to
> be quite involved and I'm on a bit of a schedule before Comcast drops
> support for my equally-ancient cable boxes, so I'll get the test system
> running first and ask any questions about migration later.
>
> (a) I don't want to interfere with the ancient myth's lineups (using DD)
> in any way while setting up the new machine's lineups (presumably using
> XMLTV). The two lineups will be -very- different because the two myths
> will receive via very different hardware and have access to different
> channels. I see that SD supports up to four lineups, but can I rely on
> a new installation using a new lineup and not bashing the old one? How
> are they differentiated? The SD web interface makes it look like I have
> to pick a unique nearby zipcode (pretty sure that's what I did years
> ago); is that the way? [.If I can't be sure, I can pay for a brand-new
> account (a couple months or a year) to guarantee they stay separate,
> although I just paid for a new year on the old one and I assume that
> money's sunk. I'd rather use the existing SD acct, but only if safe.]
>
> (b) Is it wise to use the Mythbuntu Control Panel to do the initial
> setup, or should I install everything "by hand" without installing MCP?
>
> (c) I've seen rumblings on the list re MySQL compatibility. Should I
> preinstall MariaDB instead, and if I do, will MCP install MySQL anyway
> or will it see that the dependency is satisfied if I install MariaDB
> first? (And I assume if it installs MySQL I can just remove that and
> leave/reinstall MariaDB, if MariaDB is currently the recommended DB?)
>
> (d) Should I prefer the JSON or the SQLite versions of the XMLTV grabber?
> If I use MCP, will it enforce a choice? Do I still have to worry about
> configuring either grabber differently so it doesn't try to use gigs of
> RAM? (I have a vague feeling that might have been solved between the
> version of 31 prepackaged w/20.04 and the current version, but I haven't
> checked when that may or may not have been fixed; the version the non-PPA
> 20.04 ships is claimed to be 2:31.0+fixes.20200323.9579662cdc-0ubuntu1.)
>
> (e) I'll be using a Ceton 6ETH (or a couple of them) to capture.
> I've stashed away a few sets of advice on this over the years, and have
> already paired one with a CableCard and ensured that works. So far,
> it/they will be sharing my network, although I hope to add Ethernet
> ports to the production backend eventually to reduce packet contention.
> I also have some 120mm fans for cooling it/them. Any other gotchas I
> should be aware of?
>
> (f) And in general---any other gotchas that spring to mind or things I
> should be asking about?
>
> Thanks!
>

I can point you to the last time I built from scratch a backend. It is also
used as a server for the whole house. These are the step by
step instructions I used last summer to completely start over. You could
restore a saved database and restore the old recordings, but I didn't this
time. My RAID drives were already set up and Ubuntu added them in without
having to be rebuilt.

https://mythtvinstall.blogspot.com/2020/07/combined-mythtv-v31-media-system-and.html

My frontends vary, but mythfrontend on PC, Macs, Raspberry PIs, and FireTV
4K all work with this backend setup.

Jim A
Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:08:27 -0400
> From: James Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com>

> https://mythtvinstall.blogspot.com/2020/07/combined-mythtv-v31-media-system-and.html

Thanks.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you used Mythbuntu (meaning Mythbuntu
Control Panel? I'm a little unsure if there's distinction) and the
SQLite version of the grabber. (Was there some reason you're not
using the JSON version? I don't know if there's a reason to prefer
one or the other.)

I take it whichever choice Mythbuntu made on the DB (which was it?
MariaDB or MySQL?) Just Works and I don't have to worry about that?

(And of course you didn't have the issue of wanting to run new & old
simultaneously & not bash lineups, etc.)
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Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:35:23 -0400, you wrote:

>(f) And in general---any other gotchas that spring to mind or things I
>should be asking about?

If you are using IR remotes, then you will run into the problem where
the Ubuntu 20.04 lirc package is broken - you will need to run my fix
script to install it properly:

http://www.jsw.gen.nz/mythtv/lirc-ubuntu-20.04-install.sh
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Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 12:23 PM <f-myth-users@media.mit.edu> wrote:

> > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:08:27 -0400
> > From: James Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com>
>
> >
> https://mythtvinstall.blogspot.com/2020/07/combined-mythtv-v31-media-system-and.html
>
> Thanks.
>
> So if I'm reading this correctly, you used Mythbuntu (meaning Mythbuntu
> Control Panel? I'm a little unsure if there's distinction) and the
> SQLite version of the grabber. (Was there some reason you're nusing the
> JSON version? I don't know if there's a reason to prefer
> one or the other.)
>
> I take it whichever choice Mythbuntu made on the DB (which was it?
> MariaDB or MySQL?) Just Works and I don't have to worry about that?
>
> (And of course you didn't have the issue of wanting to run new & old
> simultaneously & not bash lineups, etc.)
>

No, I use Xubuntu 20.04 bootable USB to install and just followed these
instructions. I remember MCP from Mythbuntu Distro back in the day, but
that's not what I used.

I went with the default MySQL that Mythtv defaults too if no MariaDB is
installed prior to Mythtv. I have used MariaDB in the past but got caught
with a problem that made a patch fail a couple of years ago.

I have run old and new versions of the backend at the same time and
configure the frontends to work with the correct one for me.
Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:38:31 -0400
> From: James Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com>

> No, I use Xubuntu 20.04 bootable USB to install and just followed these
> instructions. I remember MCP from Mythbuntu Distro back in the day, but
> that's not what I used.

Ah. I think the reason I was confused about your installation is
because you have this in it:

> Add the mythtv respository with 'sudo add-apt-repository ppa:mythbuntu/31'

...even though Ubuntu 20.04 (don't know about Xubuntu) already comes
with some version of v31 visible even without installing any PPA's.
So you're using a PPA but not also running MCP.
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Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
On 29/06/2021 17:34, Stephen Worthington wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:35:23 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> (f) And in general---any other gotchas that spring to mind or things I
>> should be asking about?
> If you are using IR remotes, then you will run into the problem where
> the Ubuntu 20.04 lirc package is broken - you will need to run my fix
> script to install it properly:
>
> http://www.jsw.gen.nz/mythtv/lirc-ubuntu-20.04-install.sh


I would suggest  if your remote IR device/hardware has devinput drivers
that work (most do these days) and you only want to receive from your IR
device then don't bother with lirc since devinput is much simpler to
setup and in many cases just works.


Paul H.

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Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 1:25 PM <f-myth-users@media.mit.edu> wrote:

> > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:38:31 -0400
> > From: James Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com>
>
> > No, I use Xubuntu 20.04 bootable USB to install and just followed
> these
> > instructions. I remember MCP from Mythbuntu Distro back in the day,
> but
> > that's not what I used.
>
> Ah. I think the reason I was confused about your installation is
> because you have this in it:
>
> > Add the mythtv respository with 'sudo add-apt-repository
> ppa:mythbuntu/31'
>
> ...even though Ubuntu 20.04 (don't know about Xubuntu) already comes
> with some version of v31 visible even without installing any PPA's.
> So you're using a PPA but not also running MCP.
>

Right. Not using MCP. Using PPA so I get latest updates.

Jim A

>
Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 18:30:19 +0100
> From: Paul Harrison <mythtv@mythqml.net>

> I would suggest if your remote IR device/hardware has devinput drivers
> that work (most do these days) and you only want to receive from your IR
> device then don't bother with lirc since devinput is much simpler to
> setup and in many cases just works.

An interesting point! I've seen all the complaints about how LIRC seems
broken these days. I haven't actually figured out anything about
remotes; for testing I was planning on driving from a keyboard & mouse.

(In my old installation, I'd gotten in the habit of basically not using
the frontend and just playing raw video files from the command line with
mpv; maybe in the new one I'll go back to using the frontend for real.
I'll have to see what I have for remote receivers; the old myth used the
receiver from a PVR-250 and their remote transmitter. One thing I've
noticed is that streams recorded "by hand" from a Ceton are unplayable
with mpv/mplayer before Ubuntu 20.04, but 20.04 seems to be okay with
them. Poor support for H.264 transport streams? Even very old mpv/
mplayer versions were fine with MPEG-TS, but whatever comes with (IIRC)
18.04 and certainly 14.04 choked on the Ceton's streams.)

Speaking of which, does Mythweb still work? That's been my 100% way of
scheduling for many years now, and I keep seeing rumors of it going away
because it's not maintained. But being able to manipulate schedules on
-any- machine, without worrying about compatible frontend versions, is
very convenient.

And I'm still wondering whether it's safe not to create a brand-new SD
acct to avoid accidentally blowing away my existing lineup; does the
grabber ask to create a new one once I give it my username/pw? (The SD
website says not to create new lineups via the web interface if using
the XMLTV grabber, so I don't have any experience with that yet.)

(And of course still wondering why we have both JSON and SQLite XMLTV
grabbers and if there's any way to decide between them. Is either one
faster/smaller/better maintained/the way of the future/easier to set up?)

P.S. One thing I recall from very old installations is that they were
somewhat promiscuous about finding other backends on the network and
upgrading any DB they find, and I definitely don't want v31 to even try;
my old one is too old for it to upgrade and I'll have to upgrade it with
some intermediate ancient version in schroot or something, I'm guessing.
I'm thinking the safe way to proceed there is to use iptables on my old
backend to just reject any packets from my new backend; that should (I'd
think!) absolutely prevent any misfire from attempting to upgrade the
old DB in-place, as opposed to from some backup file I explicitly hand
to the new installation.

Thanks again!
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Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
On 29/06/2021 20:03, f-myth-users@media.mit.edu wrote:

> Speaking of which, does Mythweb still work? That's been my 100% way of
> scheduling for many years now, and I keep seeing rumors of it going away
> because it's not maintained. But being able to manipulate schedules on
> -any- machine, without worrying about compatible frontend versions, is
> very convenient.


MythWeb is still working OK. No new development is being done on it but
it does receive any required fixes to keep it going.

You do need to make sure you get the latest version available for your
version of MythTV.

The plan is to replace MythWeb with the WebFrontend or at least the son
of the WebFrontend which will use the Services API.

> And I'm still wondering whether it's safe not to create a brand-new SD
> acct to avoid accidentally blowing away my existing lineup; does the
> grabber ask to create a new one once I give it my username/pw? (The SD
> website says not to create new lineups via the web interface if using
> the XMLTV grabber, so I don't have any experience with that yet.)

The old SD lineups you setup on the SD web site are not used in XMLTV.
In XMLTV you have to create new lineups and add the channels in the
XMLTV grabber you choose to use. When you configure the XMLTV grabber it
will ask you for your SD username/pw etc. The old MythTV settings fro
them are not used.


> (And of course still wondering why we have both JSON and SQLite XMLTV
> grabbers and if there's any way to decide between them. Is either one
> faster/smaller/better maintained/the way of the future/easier to set up?)

Gary B. the author of the SQLite grabber is a friend of the project so
most developers use that one :)

The way the SD XMLTV grabbers work is basically rather than download
every program each time it runs, which is what the old SD grabber does, 
it just grabs the changes (any new programs or program updates) that
makes them a lot more efficient and reduces the strain and bandwidth
required on the SD servers. In the early days the SQLite grabber was
more efficient because it was written from the start to comply with the
SD recommendations.   There was a suspicion the other grabber in the
early days at least just grabbed all the data each time it run but I
think that is no longer the case but I don't use it so can't confirm this?


For those interested SD asked all projects if possible to switch to the
new method that only downloads changes because it's much more efficient.
We didn't do it to piss of uses honest :)


> P.S. One thing I recall from very old installations is that they were
> somewhat promiscuous about finding other backends on the network and
> upgrading any DB they find, and I definitely don't want v31 to even try;
> my old one is too old for it to upgrade and I'll have to upgrade it with
> some intermediate ancient version in schroot or something, I'm guessing.
> I'm thinking the safe way to proceed there is to use iptables on my old
> backend to just reject any packets from my new backend; that should (I'd
> think!) absolutely prevent any misfire from attempting to upgrade the
> old DB in-place, as opposed to from some backup file I explicitly hand
> to the new installation.


If it really bothers you just use a different name for the new database.
It defaults to 'mythconverg' but you can call it whatever you want. I
run two backend on my network and that is what I do.


> Thanks again!


Paul H.

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Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 22:40:34 +0100
> From: Paul Harrison <mythtv@mythqml.net>

> MythWeb is still working OK. No new development is being done on it but
> it does receive any required fixes to keep it going.

Excellent!

> You do need to make sure you get the latest version available for your
> version of MythTV.

I'm assuming it'll be in the PPA? I also vaguely recall people having
trouble setting up Apache correctly, but hopefully I'll figure it out.
I've configured a lot of Apaches over the years and I also have the old
backend's configuration, if they're still configured similarly.

> The plan is to replace MythWeb with the WebFrontend or at least the son
> of the WebFrontend which will use the Services API.

OK. Hey, once I'm running a modern version, I may even be able to
help. I have grand plans for use of the API given what I've been
doing all these years in (ab)using the web interface for bespoke tools.

> The old SD lineups you setup on the SD web site are not used in XMLTV.
> In XMLTV you have to create new lineups and add the channels in the
> XMLTV grabber you choose to use. When you configure the XMLTV grabber it
> will ask you for your SD username/pw etc. The old MythTV settings fro
> them are not used.

OK. As long as the XMLTV stuff doesn't touch the DD lineup I have, I'm
happy. I don't want it to break the lineup for my existing prod host
until I can cut over, which probably will be days/weeks, realistically.

> > (And of course still wondering why we have both JSON and SQLite XMLTV
> > grabbers and if there's any way to decide between them. Is either one
> > faster/smaller/better maintained/the way of the future/easier to set up?)

> Gary B. the author of the SQLite grabber is a friend of the project so
> most developers use that one :)

Well, that's an excellent reason, then! :) Definitely implies it'll be
well-maintained.

> The way the SD XMLTV grabbers work is basically rather than download
> every program each time it runs, which is what the old SD grabber does,
> it just grabs the changes (any new programs or program updates) that
> makes them a lot more efficient and reduces the strain and bandwidth
> required on the SD servers. In the early days the SQLite grabber was
> more efficient because it was written from the start to comply with the
> SD recommendations. There was a suspicion the other grabber in the
> early days at least just grabbed all the data each time it run but I
> think that is no longer the case but I don't use it so can't confirm this?

I recall people talking about having to go day-at-a-time to avoid
gigantic working sets, and also that maybe someone made it more
efficient a while back, but I don't recall the details or when.

But if the SQLite version doesn't eat gobs of RAM doing mfdb, great.
(The new machine has "only" 8 GB in it.)

> For those interested SD asked all projects if possible to switch to the
> new method that only downloads changes because it's much more efficient.
> We didn't do it to piss of uses honest :)

:)

> > P.S. One thing I recall from very old installations is that they were
> > somewhat promiscuous about finding other backends on the network and
> > upgrading any DB they find, and I definitely don't want v31 to even try;
> > my old one is too old for it to upgrade and I'll have to upgrade it with
> > some intermediate ancient version in schroot or something, I'm guessing.
> > I'm thinking the safe way to proceed there is to use iptables on my old
> > backend to just reject any packets from my new backend; that should (I'd
> > think!) absolutely prevent any misfire from attempting to upgrade the
> > old DB in-place, as opposed to from some backup file I explicitly hand
> > to the new installation.

> If it really bothers you just use a different name for the new database.
> It defaults to 'mythconverg' but you can call it whatever you want. I
> run two backend on my network and that is what I do.

...oh! Right, that makes sense. Just in case, I may -still- firewall
off the old backend from the new one, but if I'd realized that trick,
I might have been way more amenable to trying newer versions over the
years. I just -really- didn't want to accidentally bash the stable
version while experimenting, and that behavior really gave me pause.
(And for some reason I had a blind spot and just didn't think about
using iptables to firewall the old host, and such blind spots can
persist for -years- until insight unexpectedly arrives. :)

Thanks again!
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Re: Advice on v31 installation? [ In reply to ]
On Tuesday, June 29, 2021, 10:35:47 AM EDT, f-myth-users@media.mit.edu <f-myth-users@media.mit.edu> wrote:

>Is it wise to use the Mythbuntu Control Panel to do the initial setup, or should I install everything "by hand" without installing MCP?

It can be done either way.  Here are some helpful wiki pages about Mythbuntu and MCP:

https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Mythbuntu
https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Mythbuntu_Control_Panel
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