Mailing List Archive

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:48 AM Jim Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com> wrote:

> I haven't found any recent post on the HDHR 4K and MythTV, but I
> recently became aware that all the major USA networks stations in my
> area are now broadcasting in ATSC 3.0. I also see that the major TV
> producers are talking about their new TVs with NetgenTV (ATSC) built in.
>
> Can someone refresh me on what are the plans for MythTV at ATSC 3.0?
>
> Jim A
>
>
>
> +1 I have one sitting in a box, I'm ok with just using it for 2.0 stuff
initially but wasn't sure if the new tuner is supported even at the 2.0
level. One thing that I have read that appears to be lagging is audio
support, ATSC 3 supports DD AC4, I think I read that someone had made a
patch for ffmpeg but not sure if its made it into the mainline code yet.

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 11:51 AM Jim Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can someone refresh me on what are the plans for MythTV at ATSC 3.0?

The statements on this list from April of 2020
are still fully relevant. You should probably go
read those archives.

The only substantive change I am aware of
is that SD has changed their 4K firmware such
that the ATSC 3.0 channels major numbers
now have 100 added to them, which makes
(not) selecting them explicitly by virtual
channel number much more straightforward
during this period of testing, experimentation,
and playback artifacts.
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On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 04:14:46PM +0000, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 11:51 AM Jim Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Can someone refresh me on what are the plans for MythTV at ATSC 3.0?
>
> The statements on this list from April of 2020
> are still fully relevant. You should probably go
> read those archives.
>
> The only substantive change I am aware of
> is that SD has changed their 4K firmware such
> that the ATSC 3.0 channels major numbers
> now have 100 added to them, which makes
> (not) selecting them explicitly by virtual
> channel number much more straightforward
> during this period of testing, experimentation,
> and playback artifacts.

Is that intended to only be a temporary change? Your phrasing pretty
strongly implies that it is.

David
--
David Engel
david@istwok.net
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On 3/9/21 9:14 AM, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> The only substantive change I am aware of
> is that SD has changed their 4K firmware such
> that the ATSC 3.0 channels major numbers
> now have 100 added to them, which makes
> (not) selecting them explicitly by virtual
> channel number much more straightforward
> during this period of testing, experimentation,
> and playback artifacts.

I've set-up and experimental system and noticed this as well.
Unfortunately, when mythtv did a channel scan those do not show-up so I
can't record them. Do I have to go to the channel editor and add them
manually?
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On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:04 PM David Engel <david@istwok.net> wrote:

> Is that intended to only be a temporary change? Your phrasing pretty
> strongly implies that it is.

SD did not make it clear themselves as
to their future plans. Their wording
at the time of the change suggested
that when ATSC 3.0 moves out of
the current testing modes, and all
the usual apps start supporting AC4
and HEVC decoding they *might*
go back to sharing the same major.minor
as people would expect "the best quality
possible" when selecting a channel.
But they were sufficiently wishy washy
that I simply am not sure (they may
also choose to change their apps to
support additional selection criteria).

This is still a WIP (and, btw, the most
amusing issue to me is that it turned
out there are broadcasters using HEVC
interlaced, and pretty much no app
supported that properly (only LG TV's
did it right).

At this point anyone who wants
to be on the bleeding edge should
expect to leave behind some red
on the floor.
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There is no ATSC 3.0 in San Francisco yet, but I have an HDHomeRun ATSC3.0 in my system and working fine. No reason not to use
it. Slightly better reception than the HDHR4-2US (I'm using three of those).

On 3/9/21 5:16 AM, Tom Bishop wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:48 AM Jim Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com <mailto:jfabernathy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I haven't found any recent post on the HDHR 4K and MythTV, but I
> recently became aware that all the major USA networks stations in my
> area are now broadcasting in ATSC 3.0. I also see that the major TV
> producers are talking about their new TVs with NetgenTV (ATSC) built in.
>
> Can someone refresh me on what are the plans for MythTV at ATSC 3.0?
>
> Jim A
>
>
>
> +1 I have one sitting in a box, I'm ok with just using it for 2.0 stuff initially but wasn't sure if the new tuner is
> supported even at the 2.0 level.  One thing that I have read that appears to be lagging is audio support, ATSC 3 supports DD
> AC4, I think I read that someone had made a patch for ffmpeg but not sure if its made it into the mainline code yet.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
> MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 1:19 PM Tom Bishop <bishoptf@gmail.com> wrote:
> ATSC 3 supports DD AC4,

In practice that is a "requires", not
a "supports" (although it is possible
to use MPEG-H part 3, AFAIK all
known test broadcasts are using
AC-4).

> I think I read that someone had made a patch for ffmpeg but not sure if its made it into the mainline code yet.

Still experimental (and occasionally
buggy) according to the last comments,
and not committed to FFMpeg master.

As to the when that might change,
almost certainly that will require
resources from developers and
likely not otherwise encumbered
(remember, this is Dolby).

(Licensed) implementations are
available for (at least) Windows
and (at least some) nVidia shields
and some more recent A/V
receivers should support playback
from the AC-4 bitstreams.
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On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:04 PM David Engel <david@istwok.net> wrote:

> Is that intended to only be a temporary change? Your phrasing pretty
> strongly implies that it is.

btw, TTBOMK, this "adjustment" is only
to the modern streaming channel numbering
(because the SD ecosystem only uses
the modern streaming protocols).

I would guess that applications that tune
by freq/pid would presumably still get the
raw data and they would need to parse to
determine the major.minor (which likely
overlaps the existing major.minor for
the local ATSC 1.0 broadcasts).

It should also be noted that TTBOMK
the guide data providers are not directly
including these "adjusted" majors, so
one would might need to create channels
and xmltv-ids for these by hand (I again
presume the SD ecosystem has this taken
care of).

FD: I use the 3rd party HDHR external recorder
that uses the modern streaming protocols,
so that would be my primary approach and
interest should I ever consider purchasing
one of the new ATSC 3.0 tuners (and at
this time my DMA only has ATSC 3.0
broadcasters by press release, which does
not generate any usable signal (but it does
generate a lot of noise)).
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On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:50 PM Douglas Peale <Douglas_Peale@comcast.net> wrote:

> Slightly better reception than the HDHR4-2US (I'm using three of those).

In simple terms, every new generation of MaxLinear
tuners/demod (which are what are inside the box)
are better than the previous generation(*). In this case
the 2 ATSC 1.0/3.0 tuners are universal worldwide
terrestrial tuners (one tuner design to rule them all)
depending on the programming, which are more
expensive than some earlier more limited designs,
but substantially reduce the design costs (rather
than one planar design per region, it is one design,
sometimes with a different antenna connection).

I have not seen a physical teardown of the new
device, but I suspect the 2 ATSC 1.0 (only) tuners
are also newer gen (or at a minimum a newer
revision) than the previous gen HDHRs(**).


(*) There are occasional exceptions where the
new tuner/demod turns out to handle certain
RF issues in ways that are worse than previous
gens in ways that require later firmware updates,
but those are the exception.

(**) Somewhere you can find the (shared) press
releases between MaxLinear and SiliconDust
about the selection (design wins are great
pressos in certain engineering communities
and fields).
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On 3/9/21 10:20 PM, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:50 PM Douglas Peale <Douglas_Peale@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Slightly better reception than the HDHR4-2US (I'm using three of those).
> In simple terms, every new generation of MaxLinear
> tuners/demod (which are what are inside the box)
> are better than the previous generation(*). In this case
> the 2 ATSC 1.0/3.0 tuners are universal worldwide
> terrestrial tuners (one tuner design to rule them all)
> depending on the programming, which are more
> expensive than some earlier more limited designs,
> but substantially reduce the design costs (rather
> than one planar design per region, it is one design,
> sometimes with a different antenna connection).
>
> I have not seen a physical teardown of the new
> device, but I suspect the 2 ATSC 1.0 (only) tuners
> are also newer gen (or at a minimum a newer
> revision) than the previous gen HDHRs(**).
>
>
> (*) There are occasional exceptions where the
> new tuner/demod turns out to handle certain
> RF issues in ways that are worse than previous
> gens in ways that require later firmware updates,
> but those are the exception.
>
> (**) Somewhere you can find the (shared) press
> releases between MaxLinear and SiliconDust
> about the selection (design wins are great
> pressos in certain engineering communities
> and fields).


I'm toying with getting a HDHR 4K quatro and starting playing with it
since my area (Raleigh/Durham, NC) now has all the major network
stations on ATSC 3.0 to some extent.

If I go down this path it would be as an experiment. At first with only
the HDHR App on my Shield TV.

However, if I could be of help to anyone who wants me to test something
with MythTV I'd be happy to give it a try. While my production MythTV is
on v31 latest. I could setup another backend on Master that could use
the HDHR 4K.

I'm working on the SiliconDust forum to see how useful the HDHR 4K is
really, in my area.  Then I'll make the decision once I know I can
really see something useful in ATSC 3.0

Jim A


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On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 06:39:52PM +0000, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:04 PM David Engel <david@istwok.net> wrote:
>
> > Is that intended to only be a temporary change? Your phrasing pretty
> > strongly implies that it is.
>
> SD did not make it clear themselves as
> to their future plans. Their wording
> at the time of the change suggested
> that when ATSC 3.0 moves out of
> the current testing modes, and all
> the usual apps start supporting AC4
> and HEVC decoding they *might*
> go back to sharing the same major.minor
> as people would expect "the best quality
> possible" when selecting a channel.
> But they were sufficiently wishy washy
> that I simply am not sure (they may
> also choose to change their apps to
> support additional selection criteria).

Sooner or later, someone at SD is going to have to handle scheduling
of their asymmetric tuners. I curious how they're going to eventually
handle it. For MythTV, having separate, virtual, channel numbers
would probably be an acceptable solution.

> This is still a WIP (and, btw, the most
> amusing issue to me is that it turned
> out there are broadcasters using HEVC
> interlaced, and pretty much no app
> supported that properly (only LG TV's
> did it right).

I believe Mediacodec on the Nvidia Shield, at least with MythTV,
handles is correctly. I wasn't happy with the 1x deinterlacing done
by Handbrake when transcoding some 1080i, TV recordings to HEVC a
while back. I eventually used ffmpeg to do the trancoding instead and
preserve the interlacing. The results played fine for me.

David
--
David Engel
david@istwok.net
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On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 09:26:00PM +0000, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:04 PM David Engel <david@istwok.net> wrote:
>
> > Is that intended to only be a temporary change? Your phrasing pretty
> > strongly implies that it is.
>
> btw, TTBOMK, this "adjustment" is only
> to the modern streaming channel numbering
> (because the SD ecosystem only uses
> the modern streaming protocols).
>
> I would guess that applications that tune
> by freq/pid would presumably still get the
> raw data and they would need to parse to
> determine the major.minor (which likely
> overlaps the existing major.minor for
> the local ATSC 1.0 broadcasts).

Current MythTV still needs some work on the recording side to support
the HDHR 4k. While it can tune by virtual channel number, it still
pre-allocates a tuner, now from a pool instead of a fixed tuner like
before. However, unless SD has updated their API, I don't believe
there is a way for MythTV to request a tuner from the "right" pool.
The result being that MythTV could sometimes be given an ATSC 1 tuner
when it needs an ATSC 3 (or vice versa) one and cause the current (or
a future) recording to fail.

David
--
David Engel
david@istwok.net
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On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 2:28 AM David Engel <david@istwok.net> wrote:

> Current MythTV still needs some work on the recording side to support
> the HDHR 4k.

As (I think it was) John Poet originally suggested,
especially with the major number adjustment,
the 3rd party external record *might* be
partially usable with appropriate selection
priorities, with the limitation of no multirec
(which under ATSC 1.0 is mostly unimportant,
but with the current test ATSC 3.0 transmitters
may be more desirable).

But I think everyone agrees there is still
learning to be done here.
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