Mailing List Archive

On 16/05/2020 08:51, Jan Ceuleers wrote:

> Dear list server admins and fellow subscribers,
>
> Recently there has been an increase in posts from subscribers who
> subscribe to the digest version, resulting in fragmented discussions
> across multiple threads (since the Message-ID being replied to by a
> digest subscriber isn't the same as that of the original message), as
> well as uninformative subjects in those orphan threads.
>
> I wonder what the best solution to this problem is:
>
> - Should we ask digest subscribers to voluntarily refrain from
> participating in discussions?
>
> - Should the list be reconfigured to not accept submissions from digest
> subscribers?
>
> - Should we simply put up with the status quo?
>
> Thanks, Jan


The Mailing List Etiquette linked at the bottom of every email on this
list says it's best NOT to reply to digest emails.

See '3. Make sure your email client is properly configured.' in the
section  'FAQ - Anything else I should be aware of?'

If you _must_ use digest mode then it's only common courtesy to change
the subject line to match the email you are responding to otherwise you
get the confusing mess we have had the last few days Jan is referring to.


Paul H.

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To all those who use digest and want to interact with messages.

> On May 16, 2020, at 3:51 AM, Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear list server admins and fellow subscribers,
>
> Recently there has been an increase in posts from subscribers who
> subscribe to the digest version, resulting in fragmented discussions
> across multiple threads (since the Message-ID being replied to by a
> digest subscriber isn't the same as that of the original message), as
> well as uninformative subjects in those orphan threads.
>
> I wonder what the best solution to this problem is:
>
> - Should we ask digest subscribers to voluntarily refrain from
> participating in discussions?
>
> - Should the list be reconfigured to not accept submissions from digest
> subscribers?
>
> - Should we simply put up with the status quo?
>

I used to subscribe to the digest, and would stop the digest if I found a topic of interest I would turn of digest mode, and wait for a refresh’s to bring new messages from the thread to reply to.

I no longer do the digest since there aren’t that many messages per day to see individually.

Regards,

Jay


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Hi Jan!

> Recently there has been an increase in posts from subscribers who
> subscribe to the digest version, resulting in fragmented discussions
> across multiple threads (since the Message-ID being replied to by a
> digest subscriber isn't the same as that of the original message), as
> well as uninformative subjects in those orphan threads.

I’m one who has posted a recent thread to the mailing list ‘only’, the
reasoning is the mailing list is thought of as the primary access as
opposed to going to the forum’s website. At the top of the e-mailed
version, at least the way it is displayed here, the first item is “Send
mythtv-users mailing list submissions to mythtv-users@mythtv.org
<mailto:mythtv-users@mythtv.org>”; buried at the very bottom is the
forum’s site. I’ll admit to skipping to the “Today’s Topics” portion to
see if there is anything of interest – well, when I’m not participating!
– and so both the top and bottom information is essentially ignored. My
e-mail reader – whatever it is properly called – it’s Thunderbird,
Ubuntu version – also has ‘Reply’ (to Sender) and ‘Reply List’ option.
Nothing about to the web forum. Maybe could do a copy and paste; I’ll
admit to being lazy and clicking the List option.

It would be nice if one could go back to edit the mistakes – forgetting
to update the Subject Field is a primary ‘offense’ – so as to correct
the linking.

Another problem I had, and this is with some old postings I’ve done, I
haven’t checked with my current one, is I have been unable to find my
thread on the forum’s web site. Not all threads, but enough to have been
considered better to stick with the e-mailed version. I have used the
web-forum for looking for an answer prior to posting a new question;
have found answers.

So to finally conclude, maybe the solution isn’t to exclude posts
exclusively to the e-mailed digest but to improve upon, better
integration of the two.

Barry

Jan Ceuleers says:
> Dear list server
> - Should we ask digest subscribers to voluntarily refrain from
> participating in discussions?
>
> - Should the list be reconfigured to not accept submissions from
> digest subscribers?

Yes and yes.

It was not until your message that I realized that multiple people were doing this. I have always subscribed to the digest, but I use an email client that can break up digests, so did not realize that such an ability is rare.

People who can't break up digests can always switch to the non-digest version of the list.

--
Frontend: Apple MacBook Pro 2012, Nvidia Shield 2017
Backend: HP Microserver N40L 1.5GHz with 4x3TB HDDs
Tuners: Two over-the-air ATSC inputs with multirec
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> On 17 May 2020, at 3:16 am, mythtv-users-request@mythtv.org wrote:
>
>> Dear list server admins and fellow subscribers,
>>
>> Recently there has been an increase in posts from subscribers who
>> subscribe to the digest version, resulting in fragmented discussions
>> across multiple threads (since the Message-ID being replied to by a
>> digest subscriber isn't the same as that of the original message), as
>> well as uninformative subjects in those orphan threads.
>>
>> I wonder what the best solution to this problem is:
>>
>> - Should we ask digest subscribers to voluntarily refrain from
>> participating in discussions?
>>
>> - Should the list be reconfigured to not accept submissions from digest
>> subscribers?
>>
>> - Should we simply put up with the status quo?
>>
>
> I used to subscribe to the digest, and would stop the digest if I found a topic of interest I would turn of digest mode, and wait for a refresh?s to bring new messages from the thread to reply to.
>
> I no longer do the digest since there aren?t that many messages per day to see individually.

I would not like to not have a digest mail

Despite my best intentions all too often I have had a reply subject “Re: mythtv-users Digest, Vol 206, Issue 32”

I don’t use, and don’t understand the detail of threaded mail.

So a few lines summarizing what to do would be most appreciated, EG I always thought that keeping the reply intact maintained the thread.
James
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Hi James!


> I would not like to not have a digest mail
>
> Despite my best intentions all too often I have had a reply subject ?Re: mythtv-users Digest, Vol 206, Issue 32?

I think the problem is expecting the Subject field to be auto-filled
with the correct/current topic to which we’re replying. I’ll admit to
getting in a bit of a rush and replying to a post – hit <Send> and
that’s when I see the Subject is wrong. Auto-fill probably can’t be
done/way too much work for the Programmers but perhaps a way to not
insert/fill in the Subject field? Thunderbird and I‘d guess other mail
clients whines if the Subject field is empty – would give us humans a
chance to put in the right text.


> I don?t use, and don?t understand the detail of threaded mail.
>
> So a few lines summarizing what to do would be most appreciated, EG I always thought that keeping the reply intact maintained the thread.

I don’t know either, which might be a good thing as we’re being the
vocal portion of the Group Who Does Not Know – probably the majority of
the posters other than those giving us answers to our questions. What I
generally do is write my reply off-line: right now I’m in LibreOffice,
mainly so I can ‘think and rephrase’ and not accidentally send off a
partial reply. The quoted back portions (your comments) are inserted
with the ‘paste as a quotation’ option. I can and have also replied
directly – just depends on what is easier for me at the time.

Also noted there are a lot of question marks in the text. not just yours
(and mine!) – substitution character for an unknown character in the
original. I know there are at least two kinds of single
quotes/apostrophes and double quotes – wrong one and the Command Line
doesn’t work. Have also noticed with two sequential spaces and maybe
tabs. (I was taught end of sentence – period – space - space – new
sentence.)

As for “maintaining the thread” I also assumed it was done based on the
Subject field; it is one of the sort options at the website.

Barry

On 17/05/2020 17:08, Barry Martin wrote:
>> So a few lines summarizing what to do would be most appreciated, EG I always thought that keeping the reply intact maintained the thread.
>
> I don’t know either, which might be a good thing as we’re being the
> vocal portion of the Group Who Does Not Know – probably the majority of
> the posters other than those giving us answers to our questions.

For an excellent illustration of what threaded email lists look like,
visit the following mythtv-users archive link, which shows the May 2020
posts in threaded format:

http://lists.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-users/2020-May/thread.html

This shows which posts were replies to which other posts, in a tree-like
arrangement.

You asked about how this works -- here goes.

Each email (whether it is sent to a list or not) contains a "Message-ID"
header. Most email clients hide the headers by default. I use
Thunderbird, and the incantation to get it to display the headers is Ctrl-U.

Here is the Message-ID header extracted from your email (i.e. the one
I'm now replying to):

Message-ID: <d3aeeb03-94c1-8722-6792-76e71d238df2@GMail.com>

(I inserted a space in front to avoid any risk of malfunction)

You will see if you display the headers on the message you're now
reading that it contains an "In-Reply-To" header, as follows:

In-Reply-To: <d3aeeb03-94c1-8722-6792-76e71d238df2@GMail.com>

This informs the recipient's email client about the threading
relationships between messages, so that it can (optionally) display them
in a format similar to the one shown on the archive page I linked to above.

In summary, threading isn't done based on subject, but based on the
Message-ID and In-Reply-To headers. A thread can consist of messages
having different subjects.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers, Jan
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James Linder says:
> I don’t use, and don’t understand the detail of threaded mail.
>
> So a few lines summarizing what to do would be most appreciated, EG
> I always thought that keeping the reply intact maintained the
> thread.

Every message has a Message-ID: header line, normally hidden by one's mail client. It contains a special code guaranteed to uniquely identify that message. If a reply to another message, the message also has a References: and/or a In-Reply-To: header line, also normally hidden. Most mail clients correctly generate these header lines when replying to a message based on that message's Message-ID: header, and use the three header lines to connect the message to other, related messages. Even if the subject line changes, the hidden headers connect related messages together.[1]

A digest is a separate mail message with its own Message-ID: that is not connected to any other message, including the messages the digest compiles. When you reply to a digest, the reply contains a References: and/or In-Reply-To: header that does not contain data that allows other mail clients to connect the reply to previous messages in the real thread. Some mail clients do attempt to associate such orphan messages with others using subject lines as a backup method, but that's an inherently inaccurate and imperfect solution.

Please change your options to not receive a digest unless one a) has a mail client that can correctly burst digests into individual messages (what I do), or b) never plans to reply. If your issue with wanting to receive a digest is that the volume of traffic in mythtv-users is too high, set up an automated system in your mail client to group incoming mythtv-users messages together until you're ready to read them. Apple Mail calls this Smart Mailbox.

[1] This is the cause of the related but opposite issue, in which someone decides to post to mythtv-users or another mailing list on a new topic, not by creating a new message from scratch, but by replying to an existing one and changing the subject line. The hidden headers connect the message to the message it was a reply to and all the ones that message is connected to, confusing others.

--
Frontend: Apple MacBook Pro 2012, Nvidia Shield 2017
Backend: HP Microserver N40L 1.5GHz with 4x3TB HDDs
Tuners: Two over-the-air ATSC inputs with multirec
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________________________________
From: Yeechang Lee <ylee@columbia.edu>
Sent: Monday, 18 May 2020 5:46 am
To: mythtv-users@mythtv.org
Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Posts from digest subscribers


James Linder says:
> I don’t use, and don’t understand the detail of threaded mail.
>
> So a few lines summarizing what to do would be most appreciated, EG
> I always thought that keeping the reply intact maintained the
> thread.

Every message has a Message-ID: header line, normally hidden by one's mail client. It contains a special code guaranteed to uniquely identify that message. If a reply to another message, the message also has a References: and/or a In-Reply-To: header line, also normally hidden. Most mail clients correctly generate these header lines when replying to a message based on that message's Message-ID: header, and use the three header lines to connect the message to other, related messages. Even if the subject line changes, the hidden headers connect related messages together.[1]

A digest is a separate mail message with its own Message-ID: that is not connected to any other message, including the messages the digest compiles. When you reply to a digest, the reply contains a References: and/or In-Reply-To: header that does not contain data that allows other mail clients to connect the reply to previous messages in the real thread. Some mail clients do attempt to associate such orphan messages with others using subject lines as a backup method, but that's an inherently inaccurate and imperfect solution.

Please change your options to not receive a digest unless one a) has a mail client that can correctly burst digests into individual messages (what I do), or b) never plans to reply. If your issue with wanting to receive a digest is that the volume of traffic in mythtv-users is too high, set up an automated system in your mail client to group incoming mythtv-users messages together until you're ready to read them. Apple Mail calls this Smart Mailbox.

[1] This is the cause of the related but opposite issue, in which someone decides to post to mythtv-users or another mailing list on a new topic, not by creating a new message from scratch, but by replying to an existing one and changing the subject line. The hidden headers connect the message to the message it was a reply to and all the ones that message is connected to, confusing others.

--
Frontend: Apple MacBook Pro 2012, Nvidia Shield 2017
Backend: HP Microserver N40L 1.5GHz with 4x3TB HDDs
Tuners: Two over-the-air ATSC inputs with multirec
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