Mailing List Archive

New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source
I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer
comes up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.


Preconditions of use
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You need a graphics chip that can output interlaced display modes correctly.

The display mode must be interlaced exactly matching the video source.

No scaling can be used: don't use scaling to reduce overscan.

Video playback must be full speed, not sped up or slowed down.

The deinterlacer is a doublerate one, so you may need the patch from
Ticket #2903 before MythTv will allow you to use it.

For best quality, make sure TvDeflicker is turned off if your card
supports it.


Test result
~~~~~~~~~~~
I've tested this only with 576i content into a CRT PAL TV, but the same
should apply for any interlaced content and matching interlaced display
mode. It should be good for displaying 1080i, provided the graphics card
can output a 1080i signal. The test that most obviously showed up the
differences between deinterlacers were rolling credits at the end of a
program:

No deinterlacer: results depend on synchronisation. Sometimes perfect
sometimes jumping forward 3, back 1, forward 3, back 1.

Kernel: slight loss of sharpness. Motion jerky as though halved frame rate.

Linear blend: even more loss of sharpness.

Yadif x2: really very good. Depends on sync as with no deinterlacer,
sometimes perfect, sometimes rolling text shows artifacts (e.g.,
slightly malformed letters, disappearing dots on occurences of the
letter i).

New "Interlaced x2" deinterlacer: perfectly sharp, very smooth motion as
with no deinterlacer, but no loss of sync.


Explanation
~~~~~~~~~~~
Some TVs can do a better job of displaying an interlaced video than the
currently available deinterlacers. Particularly, a CRT TV's purpose in
life is to display interlaced video, and for most CRT TVs, there is no
choice but to drive them with an interlaced video mode. Even with modern
flat screen TVs, some have extremely good SD support, and the best
quality for SD video is when driving them with an SD display mode.

When the display mode is chosen to match the source, it is important to
avoid any processing of the image. Any use of scaling, normal
deinterlacing, tvdeflicker will lose quality: the best results are
achieved if the interlaced video frames are sent to the TV unaltered.

Getting the interlaced frames to the TV properly synchronised is
difficult in MythTv (and probably Linux in gereral) because graphics
cards when outputting interlaced display modes tend to generate two
vsyncs per frames. The new deinterlacer generates frames between every
consecutive pair in such a way that synchronisation doesn't matter. A
sequence of field pairs such as:

12 34 56 78

is processed to produce

12 32 34 54 56 76 78

The TV may take the top field from the first and the bottom from the
second and so on to produce

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

or it may take the bottom field from the first and the top from the
second and so on to produce

2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Either way the fields are spatially correct and temporally correctly
ordered.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer comes
> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>
>
> Preconditions of use
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> You need a graphics chip that can output interlaced display modes correctly.
>

Any idea what those might be? Very interested though.

Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Tom Lichti wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
>> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
>> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer comes
>> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>>
>>
>> Preconditions of use
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> You need a graphics chip that can output interlaced display modes correctly.
>>
>
> Any idea what those might be? Very interested though.

I think I've worded that condition in a confusing way. All should be
well if you are using TV out.

I've been using the VGA to Scart trick, which requires interlaced TV
timings from VGA. Finding chip/driver combinations that can handle
that is harder. Many ATI chips now work if you use the radeon driver.
And development of the radeon driver is very active. I've had a Radeon
9000 work. I'm currently using an integrated X1250. I've heard that
an integrated HD3200 will work.

I don't know about 1080i. I don't have HD capability at the moment.

There's been a lot of talk of nVidia's drivers not supporting interlaced
output correctly, but I don't know if that applies to just VGA, or
also TV out. 1080i via HDMI might be fine. Don't really know.

Cheers,
Paul.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Paul Gardiner wrote:
> Tom Lichti wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>>> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
>>> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
>>> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer
>>> comes
>>> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>>>
>>>
>>> Preconditions of use
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> You need a graphics chip that can output interlaced display modes
>>> correctly.
>>>
>>
>> Any idea what those might be? Very interested though.
>
> I think I've worded that condition in a confusing way. All should be
> well if you are using TV out.
>
> I've been using the VGA to Scart trick, which requires interlaced TV
> timings from VGA. Finding chip/driver combinations that can handle
> that is harder. Many ATI chips now work if you use the radeon driver.
> And development of the radeon driver is very active. I've had a Radeon
> 9000 work. I'm currently using an integrated X1250. I've heard that
> an integrated HD3200 will work.
>
I think a problem here is (correct me if I'm wrong) that TV out usually means
S-Video or Composite, neither of which will give you as good a quality of
picture on your TV as a VGA output (or something better like DVI or HDMI, etc)
would.

--

Mike Perkins

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 14:12 +0000, Paul Gardiner wrote:
> >> Preconditions of use
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> You need a graphics chip that can output interlaced display modes
> correctly.
> >>
> >
> > Any idea what those might be? Very interested though.

> There's been a lot of talk of nVidia's drivers not supporting
> interlaced
> output correctly, but I don't know if that applies to just VGA, or
> also TV out. 1080i via HDMI might be fine. Don't really know.

I do 1080i with an nVidia 5200FX card. That's AGP, not PCIe. The only
driver that works with this is version 8776, and it only works when
connecting with DVI (using DVI->HDMI in my case) to a TV that puts out a
valid EDID 1080i mode. If you try to specify a 1080i modeline, it won't
work. I've recently patched it to work with more recent kernels, but it
limits me to Xorg-1.3.

The latest drivers have dropped support for my card, so I haven't been
able to test them to see if they've fixed the problem, but I haven't
heard anything encouraging.

The lack of good video drivers for 1080i is the main thing holding me
back from upgrading my MythTV system. I like my native-1080i TV.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Mike Perkins wrote:
> Paul Gardiner wrote:
>> Tom Lichti wrote:
>>> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>>>> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect
>>>> image
>>>> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode
>>>> that
>>>> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer
>>>> comes
>>>> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Preconditions of use
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> You need a graphics chip that can output interlaced display modes
>>>> correctly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Any idea what those might be? Very interested though.
>>
>> I think I've worded that condition in a confusing way. All should be
>> well if you are using TV out.
>>
>> I've been using the VGA to Scart trick, which requires interlaced TV
>> timings from VGA. Finding chip/driver combinations that can handle
>> that is harder. Many ATI chips now work if you use the radeon driver.
>> And development of the radeon driver is very active. I've had a Radeon
>> 9000 work. I'm currently using an integrated X1250. I've heard that
>> an integrated HD3200 will work.
>>
> I think a problem here is (correct me if I'm wrong) that TV out usually
> means S-Video or Composite, neither of which will give you as good a
> quality of picture on your TV as a VGA output (or something better like
> DVI or HDMI, etc) would.

Yeah, you may be wrong. I think, for an SD source, most of our
deinterlacers degrade the quality more than the use of S-Video - for
SD you lose very little through S-Video.

Also, it may be possible to output 480i or 576i via HDMI (I'm afraid I
know little about that).

Cheers,
Paul.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer comes
> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>

Very very cool stuff Paul. I was reading about this on your thread on
the dev list.

I've been running 0.21-fixes version 18314 under Gentoo patched with
that 2903 patch to allow Bob x2. I watch all U.S. OTA DTV on a rear
projection CRT (Hitachi 51F500), so my issues have been mainly with
1080i content. In my case the 2903 patch and Bob have worked well,
though never quite as good as with no deinterlacing (when it happened
to be in sync, which certainly wasn't often enough to put up with).

I was able to patch the rev 18314 source with your patch, though hunk
3 of the libs/libmythtv/videodisplayprofile.cpp gave me a problem so I
had to enter it manually:

@@ -1304,6 +1311,8 @@
msg = kYadifMsg;
else if (deint == "yadifdoubleprocessdeint")
msg = kYadifMsg + " " + kDoubleRateMsg;
+ else if (deint == "fieldorderdoubleprocessdeint")
+ msg = kFieldorderMsg + " " + kDoubleRateMsg;
else if (deint == "opengldoublerateyadif")
msg = kYadifMsg + " " + kUsingOpenGLWorkaround;
else

...those three lines after your added lines don't seem to appear that
way in 18314 or even in the current 0.21-fixes SVN...instead it's
followed by the final else clause.

In any case I got it to work and I'm only having one issue (not the
fault of your code...more on that below). I have to say that this is
the first time I've seen my myth system play 1080i content and have it
look just as good as my Samsung HD receiver. From my testing so far,
this appears to be exactly what I've been hoping for since building
the system two years ago, and may be just as good as actually having
nVidia fix their 1080i ouput (which may never happen).

The issue I'm running into is due to the fact that two of my 1080i
stations...NBC and CBS...have the unexplainable practice of mixing
progressive and interlaced frames. This causes the constant
re-enabling of interlacing every 1/2 second or so:

2009-03-26 14:08:04.288 Using deinterlace method fieldorderdoubleprocessdeint
2009-03-26 14:08:07.491 NVP: progressive frame seen after 91 interlaced frames
2009-03-26 14:08:07.558 Enabled deinterlacing
2009-03-26 14:08:07.808 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 9 progressive frames
2009-03-26 14:08:07.808 Enabled deinterlacing
2009-03-26 14:08:08.094 NVP: progressive frame seen after 10 interlaced frames
2009-03-26 14:08:08.163 Enabled deinterlacing
2009-03-26 14:08:09.274 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 29 progressive frames
2009-03-26 14:08:09.274 Enabled deinterlacing
2009-03-26 14:08:09.458 NVP: progressive frame seen after 7 interlaced frames
2009-03-26 14:08:09.524 Enabled deinterlacing
2009-03-26 14:08:10.791 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 33 progressive frames
2009-03-26 14:08:10.791 Enabled deinterlacing
2009-03-26 14:08:11.091 NVP: progressive frame seen after 10 interlaced frames
2009-03-26 14:08:11.158 Enabled deinterlacing

...etc...etc. This issue (especially with NBC) has come up on the
list before. It doesn't seem to cause visible issues with Bob x2 for
some reason.

However, as long as this occurs using fieldorderdoubleprocessdeint I
run into various problems including occasional tearing. However, if
immediately after starting playback, I pause and then go into the
playback menu and change the video scan from "Detect" to "Interlaced
(Normal)" your deinterlacer seems to work flawlessly...at least from
what I've seen so far. Forcing that setting has actually been the
recommended work-around when this issue has been raised here before.

Definitely cool beyond belief though. I'm going to look into seeing
if I can find a way to patch playback so that, as soon as
deinterlacing gets enabled after seeing any progressive frames (which
doesn't seem to ever happen on any of my actual 720p channels), it
simply leaves deinterlacing on. In my case that would take care of
it.

Thanks!!
Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Preston Crow
<pc-mythtv08a@crowcastle.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 15:51 +0000, Paul Gardiner wrote:
>> Preston Crow wrote:
>> > I do 1080i with an nVidia 5200FX card.  That's AGP, not PCIe.  The only
>> > driver that works with this is version 8776, and it only works when
>> > connecting with DVI (using DVI->HDMI in my case) to a TV that puts out a
>> > valid EDID 1080i mode.  If you try to specify a 1080i modeline, it won't
>> > work.  I've recently patched it to work with more recent kernels, but it
>> > limits me to Xorg-1.3.
>> >
>> > The latest drivers have dropped support for my card, so I haven't been
>> > able to test them to see if they've fixed the problem, but I haven't
>> > heard anything encouraging.
>> >
>> > The lack of good video drivers for 1080i is the main thing holding me
>> > back from upgrading my MythTV system.  I like my native-1080i TV.
>>
>> That's interesting. What do you do about synchronisation of the
>> interlaces between source and display? Do you use a deinterlacer,
>> or does the 5200FX produce only one vsync per frame?
>
> I don't use a deinterlacer, and it looks fine, so I'm guessing that
> there's only one vsync per frame.  I have an AMD 2500+ Athlon.  I
> normally use XVMC for HD, and that works pretty well.  Without XVMC, I
> can still do HD, but if anything else is running, it starts to hiccup.
>
> The 5200FX is fanless, but apparently shouldn't be; I've had two burn
> out, so I've bought replacements on eBay.
>

I thought you might be interested in this if you didn't see it. Seth
Daniel on the list says that nVidia has apparently acknowledged this
and files bugs:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/372990#372990

...though I haven't actually seen what he's referring to on the nVidia forums.

Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 03:21:50PM -0400, Tom Dexter wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Preston Crow
> <pc-mythtv08a@crowcastle.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 15:51 +0000, Paul Gardiner wrote:
> >> Preston Crow wrote:
> >> > I do 1080i with an nVidia 5200FX card.  That's AGP, not PCIe.  The only
> >> > driver that works with this is version 8776, and it only works when
> >> > connecting with DVI (using DVI->HDMI in my case) to a TV that puts out a
> >> > valid EDID 1080i mode.  If you try to specify a 1080i modeline, it won't
> >> > work.  I've recently patched it to work with more recent kernels, but it
> >> > limits me to Xorg-1.3.
> >> >
> >> > The latest drivers have dropped support for my card, so I haven't been
> >> > able to test them to see if they've fixed the problem, but I haven't
> >> > heard anything encouraging.
> >> >
> >> > The lack of good video drivers for 1080i is the main thing holding me
> >> > back from upgrading my MythTV system.  I like my native-1080i TV.
> >>
> >> That's interesting. What do you do about synchronisation of the
> >> interlaces between source and display? Do you use a deinterlacer,
> >> or does the 5200FX produce only one vsync per frame?
> >
> > I don't use a deinterlacer, and it looks fine, so I'm guessing that
> > there's only one vsync per frame.  I have an AMD 2500+ Athlon.  I
> > normally use XVMC for HD, and that works pretty well.  Without XVMC, I
> > can still do HD, but if anything else is running, it starts to hiccup.
> >
> > The 5200FX is fanless, but apparently shouldn't be; I've had two burn
> > out, so I've bought replacements on eBay.
> >
>
> I thought you might be interested in this if you didn't see it. Seth
> Daniel on the list says that nVidia has apparently acknowledged this
> and files bugs:
>
> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/372990#372990
>
> ...though I haven't actually seen what he's referring to on the nVidia forums.

I haven't been on the forum in a while. I'm content with using vdpau w/
bob 2x + 2903 patch. It looks really good. Much better than using
software bob 2x + 2903 patch. Not to mention that the CPU utilization
is *much* less.

At one point I was more active on the nvnews forum and I actually
received responses from Stephen Warren (the most active of the nvidia
folks on that forum). Although playback of 1080i material to a 1080i
display still tears if you don't use bob 2x + the 2903 patch.

--
seth /\ sethdaniel.org
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Tom Dexter wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
>> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
>> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer comes
>> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>>
>
> Very very cool stuff Paul. I was reading about this on your thread on
> the dev list.
>
> I've been running 0.21-fixes version 18314 under Gentoo patched with
> that 2903 patch to allow Bob x2. I watch all U.S. OTA DTV on a rear
> projection CRT (Hitachi 51F500), so my issues have been mainly with
> 1080i content. In my case the 2903 patch and Bob have worked well,
> though never quite as good as with no deinterlacing (when it happened
> to be in sync, which certainly wasn't often enough to put up with).
>
> ...
>
> In any case I got it to work and I'm only having one issue (not the
> fault of your code...more on that below). I have to say that this is
> the first time I've seen my myth system play 1080i content and have it
> look just as good as my Samsung HD receiver. From my testing so far,
> this appears to be exactly what I've been hoping for since building
> the system two years ago, and may be just as good as actually having
> nVidia fix their 1080i ouput (which may never happen).

Great news. I wondered whether it could work with 1080i. Sounds like
you've been in a similar position to me, having other equipment that
could give slightly better image quality, and never quite being able
to give up on making mythtv do as well.

The bit about nVidia confuses me a bit. I've obviously not understood
what the problem they have with 1080i because I was expecting it to
prevent use of the fieldorder patch; I thought it caused line doubling
when using XV rendering. What is that actual problem? Is it just the
problem of getting two vsyncs per frame?

> The issue I'm running into is due to the fact that two of my 1080i
> stations...NBC and CBS...have the unexplainable practice of mixing
> progressive and interlaced frames. This causes the constant
> re-enabling of interlacing every 1/2 second or so:
>
> 2009-03-26 14:08:04.288 Using deinterlace method fieldorderdoubleprocessdeint
> 2009-03-26 14:08:07.491 NVP: progressive frame seen after 91 interlaced frames
> 2009-03-26 14:08:07.558 Enabled deinterlacing
> 2009-03-26 14:08:07.808 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 9 progressive frames
> 2009-03-26 14:08:07.808 Enabled deinterlacing
> 2009-03-26 14:08:08.094 NVP: progressive frame seen after 10 interlaced frames
> 2009-03-26 14:08:08.163 Enabled deinterlacing
> 2009-03-26 14:08:09.274 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 29 progressive frames
> 2009-03-26 14:08:09.274 Enabled deinterlacing
> 2009-03-26 14:08:09.458 NVP: progressive frame seen after 7 interlaced frames
> 2009-03-26 14:08:09.524 Enabled deinterlacing
> 2009-03-26 14:08:10.791 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 33 progressive frames
> 2009-03-26 14:08:10.791 Enabled deinterlacing
> 2009-03-26 14:08:11.091 NVP: progressive frame seen after 10 interlaced frames
> 2009-03-26 14:08:11.158 Enabled deinterlacing
>
> ...etc...etc. This issue (especially with NBC) has come up on the
> list before. It doesn't seem to cause visible issues with Bob x2 for
> some reason.
>
> However, as long as this occurs using fieldorderdoubleprocessdeint I
> run into various problems including occasional tearing. However, if
> immediately after starting playback, I pause and then go into the
> playback menu and change the video scan from "Detect" to "Interlaced
> (Normal)" your deinterlacer seems to work flawlessly...at least from
> what I've seen so far. Forcing that setting has actually been the
> recommended work-around when this issue has been raised here before.
>
> Definitely cool beyond belief though. I'm going to look into seeing
> if I can find a way to patch playback so that, as soon as
> deinterlacing gets enabled after seeing any progressive frames (which
> doesn't seem to ever happen on any of my actual 720p channels), it
> simply leaves deinterlacing on. In my case that would take care of
> it.

That sounds like an ideal patch. Hope you can get that working. Will
also be handy for me when I eventually go HD here.

The other thing I wonder about is whether we can get 2903 committed.
Perhaps it could be made a configuration option with default being off.
I haven't yet figured out how one adds new config options though.

Cheers,
Paul.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:14 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
> Tom Dexter wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
>>> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
>>> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer
>>> comes
>>> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>>>
>>
>> Very very cool stuff Paul.  I was reading about this on your thread on
>> the dev list.
>>
>> I've been running 0.21-fixes version 18314 under Gentoo patched with
>> that 2903 patch to allow Bob x2.  I watch all U.S. OTA DTV on a rear
>> projection CRT (Hitachi 51F500), so my issues have been mainly with
>> 1080i content.  In my case the 2903 patch and Bob have worked well,
>> though never quite as good as with no deinterlacing (when it happened
>> to be in sync, which certainly wasn't often enough to put up with).
>>
>> ...
>
>>
>>
>> In any case I got it to work and I'm only having one issue (not the
>> fault of your code...more on that below).  I have to say that this is
>> the first time I've seen my myth system play 1080i content and have it
>> look just as good as my Samsung HD receiver.  From my testing so far,
>> this appears to be exactly what I've been hoping for since building
>> the system two years ago, and may be just as good as actually having
>> nVidia fix their 1080i ouput (which may never happen).
>
> Great news. I wondered whether it could work with 1080i. Sounds like
> you've been in a similar position to me, having other equipment that
> could give slightly better image quality, and never quite being able
> to give up on making mythtv do as well.
>
> The bit about nVidia confuses me a bit. I've obviously not understood
> what the problem they have with 1080i because I was expecting it to
> prevent use of the fieldorder patch; I thought it caused line doubling
> when using XV rendering. What is that actual problem? Is it just the
> problem of getting two vsyncs per frame?
>

To tell you the truth, most of the technical stuff regarding video is
way out of my league. I'm not sure what nVidia is doing wrong. All I
really know is that apparently very old nVidia drivers kept 1080i
video sync perfectly with no deinterlacing at all. Any newer ones
(any that I've been able to run) look great temporarily but
periodically drift out of sync.

>> The issue I'm running into is due to the fact that two of my 1080i
>> stations...NBC and CBS...have the unexplainable practice of mixing
>> progressive and interlaced frames.  This causes the constant
>> re-enabling of interlacing every 1/2 second or so:
>>
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:04.288 Using deinterlace method
>> fieldorderdoubleprocessdeint
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:07.491 NVP: progressive frame seen after 91 interlaced
>>  frames
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:07.558 Enabled deinterlacing
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:07.808 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 9 progressive
>> frames
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:07.808 Enabled deinterlacing
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:08.094 NVP: progressive frame seen after 10 interlaced
>>  frames
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:08.163 Enabled deinterlacing
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:09.274 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 29 progressive
>> frames
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:09.274 Enabled deinterlacing
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:09.458 NVP: progressive frame seen after 7 interlaced
>>  frames
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:09.524 Enabled deinterlacing
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:10.791 NVP: interlaced frame seen after 33 progressive
>> frames
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:10.791 Enabled deinterlacing
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:11.091 NVP: progressive frame seen after 10 interlaced
>>  frames
>> 2009-03-26 14:08:11.158 Enabled deinterlacing
>>
>> ...etc...etc.  This issue (especially with NBC) has come up on the
>> list before.  It doesn't seem to cause visible issues with Bob x2 for
>> some reason.
>>
>> However, as long as this occurs using fieldorderdoubleprocessdeint I
>> run into various problems including occasional tearing.  However, if
>> immediately after starting playback, I pause and then go into the
>> playback menu and change the video scan from "Detect" to "Interlaced
>> (Normal)" your deinterlacer seems to work flawlessly...at least from
>> what I've seen so far.  Forcing that setting has actually been the
>> recommended work-around when this issue has been raised here before.
>>
>> Definitely cool beyond belief though.  I'm going to look into seeing
>> if I can find a way to patch playback so that, as soon as
>> deinterlacing gets enabled after seeing any progressive frames (which
>> doesn't seem to ever happen on any of my actual 720p channels), it
>> simply leaves deinterlacing on.  In my case that would take care of
>> it.
>
> That sounds like an ideal patch. Hope you can get that working. Will
> also be handy for me when I eventually go HD here.
>
> The other thing I wonder about is whether we can get 2903 committed.
> Perhaps it could be made a configuration option with default being off.
> I haven't yet figured out how one adds new config options though.
>
> Cheers,
>        Paul.

I discovered that a patch was discussed on the dev list. I replied here:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/376752#376752

For my own purposes I found a quick hack (not sure if it would affect
other things like DVD playback which I don't use the internal player
for). In libs/libmythtv/NuppelVideoPlayer.cpp, at the very end of
NuppelVideoPlayer::AutoDeint() I changed the line:

m_scan_locked = false;

...to...

m_scan_locked = (m_scan_tracker > min_count);

...that is, if we've detected interlaced frames and switched to
interlaced, lock it that way (just like setting it in the menu). It
appears to work great in my circumstance...and the new deinterlacer is
working just great. It really does look crystal clear like I've never
seen in mythtv...at least not consistently. Really great.

By the way...I noticed that the new deinterlacer uses a bit more CPU
that Bob x2 (though certainly acceptably low). Would you think that's
to be expected?

Thanks again. Great work!
Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:14 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>
> The other thing I wonder about is whether we can get 2903 committed.
> Perhaps it could be made a configuration option with default being off.
> I haven't yet figured out how one adds new config options though.
>
> Cheers,
>        Paul.
>

Yea...I forgot to mention that. When I first installed the new
deinterlacer I did so without the 2903 patch and thought the
deinterlacer wasn't working. Then I noticed that it was enabling it
and then immediately falling back on none because of the refresh rate.
After I recompiled with that patch it worked fine.

Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Hi

2009/3/28 Tom Dexter <digitalaudiorock@gmail.com>:
> Yea...I forgot to mention that.  When I first installed the new
> deinterlacer I did so without the 2903 patch and thought the
> deinterlacer wasn't working.  Then I noticed that it was enabling it
> and then immediately falling back on none because of the refresh rate.
>  After I recompiled with that patch it worked fine.

Ah is that why it wasn't working for me...

I've included the new "deinterlacer" in my ubuntu packages from version 20275...

2903 was integrated in trunk just a few minutes ago.

Recompiling packages with 2903 now..

Jean-Yves
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Tom Dexter wrote:
> By the way...I noticed that the new deinterlacer uses a bit more CPU
> that Bob x2 (though certainly acceptably low). Would you think that's
> to be expected?

Probably not surprising. But should be faurly low, nowhere near the
requirements of yadif.

Cheers,
Paul.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> Hi
>
> 2009/3/28 Tom Dexter <digitalaudiorock@gmail.com>:
>> Yea...I forgot to mention that. When I first installed the new
>> deinterlacer I did so without the 2903 patch and thought the
>> deinterlacer wasn't working. Then I noticed that it was enabling it
>> and then immediately falling back on none because of the refresh rate.
>> After I recompiled with that patch it worked fine.
>
> Ah is that why it wasn't working for me...
>
> I've included the new "deinterlacer" in my ubuntu packages from version 20275...

Magic! That's good to know.

> 2903 was integrated in trunk just a few minutes ago.
>
> Recompiling packages with 2903 now..

Yeah, I just noticed that. Looks like it's all getting
sorted out.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Tom Dexter <digitalaudiorock@gmail.com> says:
> In libs/libmythtv/NuppelVideoPlayer.cpp, at the very end of
> NuppelVideoPlayer::AutoDeint() I changed the line:
>
> m_scan_locked = false;
>
> ...to...
>
> m_scan_locked = (m_scan_tracker > min_count);

Thanks for this; it neatly answered my request for same
(<URL:http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/375271#375271>.
My display is progressive, not interlaced, but the phantom
progresive-frames issue bedevils all of us. I agree your hack is
probably not ideal for DVD playback (where there really is content
with both interlaced and true progressive frames mixed together,
apparently), but like you I almost never use MythTV for DVDs. Until a
more-comprehensive solution arrives yours will do nicely.

--
Frontend/backend: P4 3.0GHz, 1.5TB software RAID 5 array
Backend: Quad-core Xeon 1.6GHz, 6.6TB sw RAID 6
Video inputs: Four high-definition over FireWire/OTA
Accessories: 47" 1080p LCD, 5.1 digital, and MX-600
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 6:40 AM, Yeechang Lee <ylee@pobox.com> wrote:
> Tom Dexter <digitalaudiorock@gmail.com> says:
>> In libs/libmythtv/NuppelVideoPlayer.cpp, at the very end of
>> NuppelVideoPlayer::AutoDeint() I changed the line:
>>
>> m_scan_locked  = false;
>>
>> ...to...
>>
>> m_scan_locked = (m_scan_tracker > min_count);
>
> Thanks for this; it neatly answered my request for same
> (<URL:http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/375271#375271>.
> My display is progressive, not interlaced, but the phantom
> progresive-frames issue bedevils all of us. I agree your hack is
> probably not ideal for DVD playback (where there really is content
> with both interlaced and true progressive frames mixed together,
> apparently), but like you I almost never use MythTV for DVDs. Until a
> more-comprehensive solution arrives yours will do nicely.
>
> --
> Frontend/backend:       P4 3.0GHz, 1.5TB software RAID 5 array
> Backend:                Quad-core Xeon 1.6GHz, 6.6TB sw RAID 6
> Video inputs:           Four high-definition over FireWire/OTA
> Accessories:            47" 1080p LCD, 5.1 digital, and MX-600

You're welcome! I used to generally ignore that disabling and
re-enabling of the deinterlacer caused by those as it didn't seem to
affect Bob x2. I generally tried to remember to switch from "Detect"
to "Interlaced (normal)" when watching NBC and CBS shows, but it
really didn't make a difference.

However it really did cause problems with the new deinterlacer, and
this addresses that. Come to think of it, I suppose that hack could
use this:

m_scan_locked = (m_scan_tracker > min_count && !ringBuffer->isDVD());

...thus behaving exactly as it used to for DVD playback.

Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer comes
> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>
>

I noticed something using this deinterlacer that I thought was an
issue with the deinterlacer itself. Others may notice it so I figured
I'd point out what I discovered:

I noticed some flickering of translucent portions of the OSD (the
playback menu for example) while this deinterlacer was in use (unless
video is paused). On 720p stations where it gets disabled this
doesn't occur at all.

However I discovered that this is strictly an artifact caused by the
stations that mix those progressive frames in the interlaced
content...and the more they do it, the more noticeable the OSD
flickering. For example, on NBC shows that do this it's very
noticeable...on the CBS shows that mix them in it's less noticeable,
and on PBS which uses pure 1080i interlaced content it doesn't occur
at all.

Using Bob x2 I get similar results but much less so...the flickering
is there for those same shows but is barely perceptible, so I had
never noticed it. For whatever reason it's much more pronounced with
the frame order deinterlacer.

I really wish these stations would cut the crap...honestly. Just try
and figure out their thought process: With shows that are actually
produced as non-HD 4:3, they were (apparently) afraid that switching
formats on the fly would cause problems with TVs etc, and chose
instead to broadcast them as 1080i with black bars built into the
content (so what should be SD shows take up as much disk on my system
as do HD shows...thank you very much). Yet they have no issue with
tossing progressive frames into interlaced video and using different
frame rates for commercials (thus those 1 hour shows that get reported
as 51 minutes in the OSD). What the hell are they thinking.

All I can say is kudos to the MythTV devs for the fact that it handles
all that horse shit as well as it does.

Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Tom Dexter wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>> I've just created a patch that provides a deinterlacer for perfect image
>> quality and motion smoothness when using an interlaced display mode that
>> exactly matches the video source. See Ticket #6391. The deinterlacer comes
>> up in the menus as "Interlaced x2". It is also known as field order.
>>
>>
>
> I noticed something using this deinterlacer that I thought was an
> issue with the deinterlacer itself. Others may notice it so I figured
> I'd point out what I discovered:
>
> I noticed some flickering of translucent portions of the OSD (the
> playback menu for example) while this deinterlacer was in use (unless
> video is paused). On 720p stations where it gets disabled this
> doesn't occur at all.

I've noticed that too with SD content here, both with the new
deinterlacer and with no deinterlacer. I think the handling of
the OSD is special cased for Bob so that might be why Bob avoids
it. Bob might be processing the OSD giving a sort of deflicker
effect.

Oh yeah, I had wondered whether there were cases where the OSD
gets painted twice (because of somehow getting stored in the
deinterlacer's buffers). For a translucent OSD that would
momentarily darken it.

Cheers,
Paul.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Tom Dexter wrote:
> I noticed some flickering of translucent portions of the OSD (the
> playback menu for example) while this deinterlacer was in use (unless
> video is paused). On 720p stations where it gets disabled this
> doesn't occur at all.

I think I've just sussed what is causing this. The deinterlacer gets
given each frame twice. Each time it overwrites the bottom field,
but leaves the top field unchanged. After each call the OSD will
be rendered over the frame. The fact that I don't update the
top field in the second call to the deinterlacer means the OSD gets
rendered over the top of a previous rendering. That doesn't matter
for a solid OSD, but if translucent the top field will be
darker than the bottom.

Should be easy to fix:

Change

if (y & tff)
{
if(parity)
{
/* Second call: put back the second field to its previous
state */
memcpy(dst + dst_offsets[i] + y*dst_stride[i],
&p->ref[nr_c][i][y*refs], w);
}
else
{
/* First call: replace second field by that of the previous
frame */
memcpy(dst + dst_offsets[i] + y*dst_stride[i],
&p->ref[nr_p][i][y*refs], w);
}
}

to
if(parity)
{
/* Second call: put back the whole frame to its previous state.
* Although we have not altered first field, we need to overwrite
* it because the OSD will have been rendered to the copy passed
* in. */
memcpy(dst + dst_offsets[i] + y*dst_stride[i],
&p->ref[nr_c][i][y*refs], w);
}
else
{
/* First call: replace second field by that of the previous frame */
if (y & tff)
{
memcpy(dst + dst_offsets[i] + y*dst_stride[i],
&p->ref[nr_p][i][y*refs], w);
}
}

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Paul Gardiner wrote:
> Tom Dexter wrote:
>> I noticed some flickering of translucent portions of the OSD (the
>> playback menu for example) while this deinterlacer was in use (unless
>> video is paused). On 720p stations where it gets disabled this
>> doesn't occur at all.
>
> I think I've just sussed what is causing this. The deinterlacer gets
> given each frame twice. Each time it overwrites the bottom field,
> but leaves the top field unchanged. After each call the OSD will
> be rendered over the frame. The fact that I don't update the
> top field in the second call to the deinterlacer means the OSD gets
> rendered over the top of a previous rendering. That doesn't matter
> for a solid OSD, but if translucent the top field will be
> darker than the bottom.
>
> Should be easy to fix:

...

Hmmm, so much for that idea! Doesn't seem to make any difference.

P.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
> Paul Gardiner wrote:
>>
>> Tom Dexter wrote:
>>>
>>> I noticed some flickering of translucent portions of the OSD (the
>>> playback menu for example) while this deinterlacer was in use (unless
>>> video is paused).  On 720p stations where it gets disabled this
>>> doesn't occur at all.
>>
>> I think I've just sussed what is causing this. The deinterlacer gets
>> given each frame twice. Each time it overwrites the bottom field,
>> but leaves the top field unchanged. After each call the OSD will
>> be rendered over the frame. The fact that I don't update the
>> top field in the second call to the deinterlacer means the OSD gets
>> rendered over the top of a previous rendering. That doesn't matter
>> for a solid OSD, but if translucent the top field will be
>> darker than the bottom.
>>
>> Should be easy to fix:
>
> ...
>
> Hmmm, so much for that idea! Doesn't seem to make any difference.
>
> P.
>

It's definitely a side affect I can live with for sure...it's not even
all that noticeable.

The deinterlacer really does work great though. Watching the 1080i
content I'm starting to notice more and more just how much better it
looks...that almost 3D-like clarity I just wasn't getting before.
Great stuff.

Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Tom Dexter wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>> Paul Gardiner wrote:
>>> Tom Dexter wrote:
>>>> I noticed some flickering of translucent portions of the OSD (the
>>>> playback menu for example) while this deinterlacer was in use (unless
>>>> video is paused). On 720p stations where it gets disabled this
>>>> doesn't occur at all.
>>> I think I've just sussed what is causing this. The deinterlacer gets
>>> given each frame twice. Each time it overwrites the bottom field,
>>> but leaves the top field unchanged. After each call the OSD will
>>> be rendered over the frame. The fact that I don't update the
>>> top field in the second call to the deinterlacer means the OSD gets
>>> rendered over the top of a previous rendering. That doesn't matter
>>> for a solid OSD, but if translucent the top field will be
>>> darker than the bottom.
>>>
>>> Should be easy to fix:
>> ...
>>
>> Hmmm, so much for that idea! Doesn't seem to make any difference.
>>
>> P.
>>
>
> It's definitely a side affect I can live with for sure...it's not even
> all that noticeable.

I've just tried yadif and see exactly the same thing, so I guess it's
a general problem with doubleprocess deinterlacers on an interlaced
display. As you say, it's not that noticeable in any case.

> The deinterlacer really does work great though. Watching the 1080i
> content I'm starting to notice more and more just how much better it
> looks...that almost 3D-like clarity I just wasn't getting before.

I'm really pleased. I imagined it would make a significant difference
to 1080i. I've been suspicious for some time that most people running
MythTv aren't getting full quality 1080i. Good to hear you are now.

BTW, what graphics card are you using, and what method of connection?

Cheers,
Paul.

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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 4:07 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
> Tom Dexter wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>>
>> It's definitely a side affect I can live with for sure...it's not even
>> all that noticeable.
>
> I've just tried yadif and see exactly the same thing, so I guess it's
> a general problem with doubleprocess deinterlacers on an interlaced
> display. As you say, it's not that noticeable in any case.
>
>> The deinterlacer really does work great though.  Watching the 1080i
>> content I'm starting to notice more and more just how much better it
>> looks...that almost 3D-like clarity I just wasn't getting before.
>
> I'm really pleased. I imagined it would make a significant difference
> to 1080i. I've been suspicious for some time that most people running
> MythTv aren't getting full quality 1080i. Good to hear you are now.
>
> BTW, what graphics card are you using, and what method of connection?
>
> Cheers,
>        Paul.
>

I have a PCI Express GeForce 7100GS connected to the TV via DVI.

Tom
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Re: New deinterlacer for perfect image quality when using an interlaced display, mode that matches the source [ In reply to ]
Tom Dexter wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Paul Gardiner <lists@glidos.net> wrote:
>> Paul Gardiner wrote:
>>> Tom Dexter wrote:
>>>> I noticed some flickering of translucent portions of the OSD (the
>>>> playback menu for example) while this deinterlacer was in use (unless
>>>> video is paused). On 720p stations where it gets disabled this
>>>> doesn't occur at all.
>>> I think I've just sussed what is causing this. The deinterlacer gets
>>> given each frame twice. Each time it overwrites the bottom field,
>>> but leaves the top field unchanged. After each call the OSD will
>>> be rendered over the frame. The fact that I don't update the
>>> top field in the second call to the deinterlacer means the OSD gets
>>> rendered over the top of a previous rendering. That doesn't matter
>>> for a solid OSD, but if translucent the top field will be
>>> darker than the bottom.
>>>
>>> Should be easy to fix:
>> ...
>>
>> Hmmm, so much for that idea! Doesn't seem to make any difference.
>>
>> P.
>>
>
> It's definitely a side affect I can live with for sure...it's not even
> all that noticeable.

Turns out the changes did work. I was confused because there is still
a small amount of flicker with my OSD.

Mark Kendall has now committed the deinterlaced to trunk, and has
fixed the flashing plus another bug, so grabbing that patch might
be good.

Cheers,
Paul.

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