Mailing List Archive

On Thursday 29 May 2003 05:18 pm, Kevin Thorwesten wrote:
> Wouldn't this be alot easier to communicate and help out each other if
> communication was done via forums and not mailing lists?

No, it wouldn't.

Isaac

Quoting Isaac Richards (ijr@po.cwru.edu):
> On Thursday 29 May 2003 05:18 pm, Kevin Thorwesten wrote:
> > Wouldn't this be alot easier to communicate and help out each other if
> > communication was done via forums and not mailing lists?
>
> No, it wouldn't.

I think you forgot "Get a better mail client" :)

James

On Thu, 2003-05-29 at 16:18, Kevin Thorwesten wrote:

> Wouldn't this be alot easier to communicate and help out each other if
> communication was done via forums and not mailing lists?
>

I brought this up not to long ago and it got shot down pretty quickly. I
can understand this, though, because most open source projects generally
use mailing lists as their method of support.

However, I think a Forum is great for several reasons:

- Better orginization of threads (separating forums under different
subject as opposed to a separate mailing list for each)
- Ability to track/watch messages (i.e. "favorites") and have them all
listed on a single page when they are active
- You can have the forum send email notifications of topic replies, as
opposed to filling up your inbox with stuff you would rather read not
have sitting on your hd (or server's hd)
- Avatars and smilys are cool (jokingly)

I think it is ultimately the developer's decision which method they are
more comfortable with. Email lists are good for support, but I think
regular discussion that does not require support should be posted in a
forum.

I guess there are other PVR forums out there, but if anyone really wants
a forum I would be willing to host one (I have a linux rackmount server
on a dedicated half-T1). Email me directly if anyone's interested.. if
enough people seem to be interested in setting one up then I guess its
worth doing :-)

~Ben Davis

Taking the risk of beating the dead horse...

Ben Davis wrote:

>Email lists are good for support, but I think regular discussion that does not require support should be posted in a forum.
>
heh, and I thought the opposite - forums for the newbies support and
regular development / idea discussion on mailing lists :).

Personally, I think that email software is far superiour and more
(time-)efficient than a web based solution, but I see that others
(usually newbies, in my biased world-view :-) ) disagree. What might be
nice would be a forum<->mailing list gateway, similar to
<http://www.gossamer-threads.com/archive/MythTV_C2/Users_F11/>, but with
posting capabilities. Isaac's concern of invalid From email addresses
could be addressed with requiring a working email address for
subscribers (and only allowing subscribers to post, of course), if you
handle the bounces :).

The problem with using forums to support beginners ("newbies") is that the
forums need some experienced users to answer the questions that beginners
ask. In my experience (with Linux and elsewhere), there is no shortage of
people who ask questions, but too few who both have the knowledge and are
willing to spend the time to answer them (correctly).

So don't pay attention to what people who *ask* questions want (unless you
are trying to set up a paid-support system or have some other, practical
reason of that sort). Pay attention to how the people who will *answer*
questions want them asked. This recurring thread suggests to me that the
experienced people -- Isaac himself, I note, but I think others too --
prefer the mailing list, and they get more votes than the beginners.

This same consideration, BTW, also argues for not setting up a separate
beginners list ... it makes it too easy for experienced users not to see
the beginner questions.

I suppose if there is some painless way to combine the two, that's fine.
(Though I'm on one Sourceforge list that does it poorly -- forum questions
get mailed to the list, but there is no way to mail answers back to the
forum; you have to log into the forum to post answers, and getting someone
actually to do that is an ongoing weakness of the method.) Actually, a
forum doesn't then even need to be part of the Myth site, just to interact
with the list ... so anyone really interested in setting it up can do so at
any convenient site.


At 04:01 AM 5/30/2003 +0200, Ben Bucksch wrote:
>Taking the risk of beating the dead horse...
>
>Ben Davis wrote:
>
>>Email lists are good for support, but I think regular discussion that
>>does not require support should be posted in a forum.
>heh, and I thought the opposite - forums for the newbies support and
>regular development / idea discussion on mailing lists :).
>
>Personally, I think that email software is far superiour and more
>(time-)efficient than a web based solution, but I see that others (usually
>newbies, in my biased world-view :-) ) disagree. What might be nice would
>be a forum<->mailing list gateway, similar to
><http://www.gossamer-threads.com/archive/MythTV_C2/Users_F11/>, but with
>posting capabilities. Isaac's concern of invalid From email addresses
>could be addressed with requiring a working email address for subscribers
>(and only allowing subscribers to post, of course), if you handle the
>bounces :).

At 04:18 PM 5/29/03 -0500, Kevin Thorwesten wrote:
>Wouldn't this be alot easier to communicate and help out each other if
>communication was done via forums and not mailing lists?


Hey Isaac, maybe this should be one for the faqs? :-)

Kevin: this comes up regularly, Isaac finds that mailing lists are more
effective. If you're looking for a threaded web interface, go to the
General Info/ lists link, scroll to the bottom, and in the section that
describes the lists there's a "here" link that takes you to a nicely
threaded and searchable archive of the mailing list. Very nice, very
friendly, easy to use. :-)

If someone is going to help they are going to help. If they will take their
time to respond to an email why would they not respond to a forum post? If
there is no mailing list and forums only, the experienced users will still
log on to the forums to check the posts as they log on to their email to
check their emails. I dont see any difference there.

The only difference I see, which is also the benefit is the orgranization.
And all the points that Ben Davies stated in his email.

Thanks

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Olszewski" <ray@comarre.com>
To: "Discussion about mythtv" <mythtv-users@snowman.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Forums??


> The problem with using forums to support beginners ("newbies") is that the
> forums need some experienced users to answer the questions that beginners
> ask. In my experience (with Linux and elsewhere), there is no shortage of
> people who ask questions, but too few who both have the knowledge and are
> willing to spend the time to answer them (correctly).
>
> So don't pay attention to what people who *ask* questions want (unless you
> are trying to set up a paid-support system or have some other, practical
> reason of that sort). Pay attention to how the people who will *answer*
> questions want them asked. This recurring thread suggests to me that the
> experienced people -- Isaac himself, I note, but I think others too --
> prefer the mailing list, and they get more votes than the beginners.
>
> This same consideration, BTW, also argues for not setting up a separate
> beginners list ... it makes it too easy for experienced users not to see
> the beginner questions.
>
> I suppose if there is some painless way to combine the two, that's fine.
> (Though I'm on one Sourceforge list that does it poorly -- forum questions
> get mailed to the list, but there is no way to mail answers back to the
> forum; you have to log into the forum to post answers, and getting someone
> actually to do that is an ongoing weakness of the method.) Actually, a
> forum doesn't then even need to be part of the Myth site, just to interact
> with the list ... so anyone really interested in setting it up can do so
at
> any convenient site.
>
>
> At 04:01 AM 5/30/2003 +0200, Ben Bucksch wrote:
> >Taking the risk of beating the dead horse...
> >
> >Ben Davis wrote:
> >
> >>Email lists are good for support, but I think regular discussion that
> >>does not require support should be posted in a forum.
> >heh, and I thought the opposite - forums for the newbies support and
> >regular development / idea discussion on mailing lists :).
> >
> >Personally, I think that email software is far superiour and more
> >(time-)efficient than a web based solution, but I see that others
(usually
> >newbies, in my biased world-view :-) ) disagree. What might be nice would
> >be a forum<->mailing list gateway, similar to
> ><http://www.gossamer-threads.com/archive/MythTV_C2/Users_F11/>, but with
> >posting capabilities. Isaac's concern of invalid From email addresses
> >could be addressed with requiring a working email address for subscribers
> >(and only allowing subscribers to post, of course), if you handle the
> >bounces :).
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@snowman.net
> http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Hello Ben,
I think the only "forums" that you need are mailing lists and
irc. To often the web forums for oss apps get many questions asked and
very few answered. That may be because none of the knowledgeable
people frequent forums when the mailing list is a perfectly good
medium.
Thursday, May 29, 2003, 8:02:35 PM, you wrote:

> On Thu, 2003-05-29 at 16:18, Kevin Thorwesten wrote:

>> Wouldn't this be alot easier to communicate and help out each other if
>> communication was done via forums and not mailing lists?
>>

> I brought this up not to long ago and it got shot down pretty quickly. I
> can understand this, though, because most open source projects generally
> use mailing lists as their method of support.

> However, I think a Forum is great for several reasons:

> - Better orginization of threads (separating forums under different
> subject as opposed to a separate mailing list for each)
> - Ability to track/watch messages (i.e. "favorites") and have them all
> listed on a single page when they are active
> - You can have the forum send email notifications of topic replies, as
> opposed to filling up your inbox with stuff you would rather read not
> have sitting on your hd (or server's hd)
> - Avatars and smilys are cool (jokingly)

> I think it is ultimately the developer's decision which method they are
> more comfortable with. Email lists are good for support, but I think
> regular discussion that does not require support should be posted in a
> forum.

> I guess there are other PVR forums out there, but if anyone really wants
> a forum I would be willing to host one (I have a linux rackmount server
> on a dedicated half-T1). Email me directly if anyone's interested.. if
> enough people seem to be interested in setting one up then I guess its
> worth doing :-)

> ~Ben Davis



--
Best regards,
Wayne mailto:bigman1@alltel.net

Kevin Thorwesten wrote:

>If someone is going to help they are going to help. If they will take their time to respond to an email why would they not respond to a forum post?
>
Because it's inconvient to them. For example:

* Having to type in a browser textfield is cumbersome
* Waiting for web pages to load after every click is slow
* With email, I have the choice of application; with a web app, I am
restricted to that web app (browser doesn't really count as app
here, only as platform)

>If there is no mailing list and forums only, the experienced users will still log on to the forums to check the posts as they log on to their email to check their emails.
>
No, I won't.

>From: "Ray Olszewski" <ray@comarre.com>
>
>
>>The problem with using forums to support beginners ("newbies") is that the forums need some experienced users to answer the questions that beginners ask.
>>
My point was that we don't have to choose between either. A gateway
allows everyone to use the method of access they prefer, both with the
same data base.

>>I suppose if there is some painless way to combine the two, that's fine.
>>
That's what I was suggesting, if Ben Davis wants to do that.

>>a forum doesn't then even need to be part of the Myth site, just to interact with the list ... so anyone really interested in setting it up can do so at any convenient site.
>>
Yes. But it should have the project's (read: Isaac's and the other main
devs') approval.

At 10:32 PM 5/29/2003 -0500, Kevin Thorwesten wrote:
>If someone is going to help they are going to help. If they will take their
>time to respond to an email why would they not respond to a forum post? If
>there is no mailing list and forums only, the experienced users will still
>log on to the forums to check the posts as they log on to their email to
>check their emails. I dont see any difference there.

Are these observations based on actual experience using both forms of
communication, with you in the role of experienced user, answering
questions? My comments were based on experience with both approaches, both
my personal reactions and discussions I've had over the years with other
people who answer questions.

I work at a computer screen. I don't "log on" to my e-mail ... it shows up
every 2 minutes with no effort from me. I can glance at it whenever it
convenient, for a minute or an hour. It adapts to my other activities.

A forum, on the other hand, I have to make a specific effort to connect to.
And if I want to follow several forums, I have to learn a different
interface for each one ... in contrast to my e-mail, which all comes to the
same, familiar MUA.

In practice, I don't ever look at a forum routinely, and I never log on to
one for the purpose of answering questions. I see messages in forums only
when Google searches turn them up, or, occasionally, if the forum is the
only option offered and I want to *ask* a question.

Now, admittedly, that's just me. But I've formed the impression that a lot
of others who answer questions are like me in their habits and preferences.

Of course, if you disagree, it would be straightforward enough for you to
set up and publicize a myth-users forum. It's (for now, at least) a free
country. Perhaps you will prove me wrong ... though I don't think you will.

>The only difference I see, which is also the benefit is the orgranization.
>And all the points that Ben Davies stated in his email.
[old stuff deleted]

Quoting Ben Davis (ben@xsusio.com):

> However, I think a Forum is great for several reasons:
>
> - Better orginization of threads (separating forums under different
> subject as opposed to a separate mailing list for each)

I don't see a fundamental difference between "separate forums" and
"separate mailing lists". And good email clients allow separation
of messages into different "folders" automatically.

> - Ability to track/watch messages (i.e. "favorites") and have them all
> listed on a single page when they are active

Good email clients allow message scoring.

> - You can have the forum send email notifications of topic replies, as
> opposed to filling up your inbox with stuff you would rather read not
> have sitting on your hd (or server's hd)

Killfiles and message scoring can achieve the same ends quite effectively.

I find the web a slow and clumsy method for text-based messages, to the
point where I will never read a web-based forum unless someone specifically
refers me to an article (or it's linked from a google search). I have
far greater flexibility in the way I handle email, not to mention the
fact that it's much quicker.

Where web-based interfaces can be useful is in list archiving and searches
on that archive, but that's a different subject altogether.

James

Quoting Kevin Thorwesten (kevthor@shaw.ca):

> If someone is going to help they are going to help. If they will take their
> time to respond to an email why would they not respond to a forum post?

Because it takes far more time and is clumsy compared to responding to an
email.

> If there is no mailing list and forums only, the experienced users
> will still log on to the forums to check the posts as they log on to
> their email to check their emails. I dont see any difference there.

I do not read web-based forums. I'd rather go without. Reading and
replying to email is just far more efficient (not to mention all sorts
of other benefits it has).

James

I'm a newbie (at MythTV) but I'm ambivalent about forums. The only great feature that forums provide is the ability to have static context that is searchable. MythTV comes close with the mailing list archives on the web site (which is great) but you can't easily search them for questions/answers that I'm sure has been asked a million times before. So instead of asking the same questions you can just do a couple of searches and come up with answers to 99% of your questions.

How hard is it to add search to the mailing list archives?

P.S.
As an avid photog I can highly recommend interface of www.photo.net community forums

-----Original Message-----
From: James Fidell [mailto:james@cloud9.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 6:31 AM
To: Discussion about mythtv
Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Forums??


Quoting Kevin Thorwesten (kevthor@shaw.ca):

> If someone is going to help they are going to help. If they will take their
> time to respond to an email why would they not respond to a forum post?

Because it takes far more time and is clumsy compared to responding to an
email.

> If there is no mailing list and forums only, the experienced users
> will still log on to the forums to check the posts as they log on to
> their email to check their emails. I dont see any difference there.

I do not read web-based forums. I'd rather go without. Reading and
replying to email is just far more efficient (not to mention all sorts
of other benefits it has).

James
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@snowman.net
http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

The web-based mailing list archives are fully searchable. Make sure you're
using the web-based archive at
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/archive/MythTV_C2/ . The standard archive
at snowman.net is not searchable.

-JAC


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net
> [mailto:mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net]On Behalf Of Lev Pertsov
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 9:07 AM
> To: Discussion about mythtv
> Subject: RE: [mythtv-users] Forums??
>
>
> I'm a newbie (at MythTV) but I'm ambivalent about forums. The
> only great feature that forums provide is the ability to have
> static context that is searchable. MythTV comes close with the
> mailing list archives on the web site (which is great) but you
> can't easily search them for questions/answers that I'm sure has
> been asked a million times before. So instead of asking the same
> questions you can just do a couple of searches and come up with
> answers to 99% of your questions.
>
> How hard is it to add search to the mailing list archives?
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> How hard is it to add search to the mailing list archives?

It's not. There already is one.
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/archive/MythTV_C2/Users_F11/

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Hello,
I'm fairly new to the list, so my opinion is probably worth less than $.02 but I'll give
it anyway. I think forums suck.

As for a searchable archive, you can find them at:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/archive/MythTV_C2/

-larry

Awesome!!! This link should be the first thing on the MythTV web site.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph A. Caputo [mailto:jcaputo1@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 9:22 AM
To: Discussion about mythtv
Subject: RE: [mythtv-users] Forums??


The web-based mailing list archives are fully searchable. Make sure you're
using the web-based archive at
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/archive/MythTV_C2/ . The standard archive
at snowman.net is not searchable.

-JAC


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net
> [mailto:mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net]On Behalf Of Lev Pertsov
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 9:07 AM
> To: Discussion about mythtv
> Subject: RE: [mythtv-users] Forums??
>
>
> I'm a newbie (at MythTV) but I'm ambivalent about forums. The
> only great feature that forums provide is the ability to have
> static context that is searchable. MythTV comes close with the
> mailing list archives on the web site (which is great) but you
> can't easily search them for questions/answers that I'm sure has
> been asked a million times before. So instead of asking the same
> questions you can just do a couple of searches and come up with
> answers to 99% of your questions.
>
> How hard is it to add search to the mailing list archives?
>

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@snowman.net
http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Hi,
I think Ray has hit the nail on the head.
I presume that the vast majority of people who contribute to help people in
need on this project are sitting at work picking up and answering email in
between doing their normal work.

They are NOT full time helpdeskies.
Anything that makes it easy for THEM (not nubes) is a big plus as far as I
can see. If something pops up, it can be answered immediately by a quick
reply without undue distraction to normal duties.

Anything that I have posted has been answered to death, which has got to be
a good thing as far as I am concerned as techies on the myth lists are very
active/helpful, which is more than can be said for an awful lot of
forums....

I think the forum/mail thing has been done to death :(

Regards,
Ralph

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> Anything that makes it easy for THEM (not nubes) is a big
> plus as far as I can see. If something pops up, it can be answered
> immediately by a quick reply without undue distraction to normal
> duties.

Plus, you can still read and answer email when disconnected.

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I think the system you have now is fine, but I think that you should more
prominently display the link to the searchable archives. I didn't even know
about them until this thread came up and I've been watching the project for a
while now and have been subscribed to the mailing list for a week or two.

As far as I can tell the only link you have to them is at the bottom of the
general / info page and that's not where most people would expect to find it.

Just my $0.02 but a little more obvious link might stop alot of repeat
questions.