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On 23 October 2014 at 2:30:06 pm, Tim Lockyer (drtimlockyer@gmail.com(mailto:drtimlockyer@gmail.com)) wrote:
>
> A couple years ago, some kind people made paid EPG information available along with some very helpful user guides on installation. This was really good for new people to MythTV, plus it made life easier for all. But unfortunately the company that we pay a monthly subscription to decided that it would stop this happening.
>
>
>
>
>
> As a result alternatives were found. But such alternatives are not the easiest of things to install and get running especially for people new to MythTV. It took me quite a lot of effort to get EPGSnoop up and running.
>
>
>
>
>
> Going forward a couple of years and there is BitTorrent Sync. My understanding is that if read only is used, the data is synced but there is no way of tracing where the data is coming from. And as a result the EPG data is completely anonymous.
>
>
>
>
>
> My thought is – is this a EPG delivery method worth considering and would there be any support?
>


Technically? There are people on this list who could build an awesome implementation of what you suggest in at least six different programming languages. However, I would suspect the discussion to be had around this would be all the legal problems.

If only there was a lawyer on the list who could provide an expert opinion…


--
Jonathan Hoskin

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On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jonathan Hoskin
<jonathan.hoskin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 23 October 2014 at 2:30:06 pm, Tim Lockyer (drtimlockyer@gmail.com(mailto:drtimlockyer@gmail.com)) wrote:
>>
>> A couple years ago, some kind people made paid EPG information available along with some very helpful user guides on installation. This was really good for new people to MythTV, plus it made life easier for all. But unfortunately the company that we pay a monthly subscription to decided that it would stop this happening.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> As a result alternatives were found. But such alternatives are not the easiest of things to install and get running especially for people new to MythTV. It took me quite a lot of effort to get EPGSnoop up and running.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Going forward a couple of years and there is BitTorrent Sync. My understanding is that if read only is used, the data is synced but there is no way of tracing where the data is coming from. And as a result the EPG data is completely anonymous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> My thought is – is this a EPG delivery method worth considering and would there be any support?
>>
>
>
> Technically? There are people on this list who could build an awesome implementation of what you suggest in at least six different programming languages. However, I would suspect the discussion to be had around this would be all the legal problems.
>
> If only there was a lawyer on the list who could provide an expert opinion…

Well IAAL but not an expert in this field.

There is plenty of law that holds that EPG data is not the subject of
copyright, as it is simply a compilation of facts. There is such law
in Oz, which is probably the closest to us jurisprudentially. Of
course no one wants a fight with Sky to establish this in NZ law. See
http://techliberty.org.nz/skys-takedown-notices/

However the EPG data supplied throuth tv_grab_nz-py does not cover Sky
channels. It is good, it works. It s pretty reliable.

If it ain't broke, why fix it.

I guess you could make an xmltv compatible guide fetcher based on
bittorrent, but as I said, if it ain't broke... (and anyway, wouldn't
someone have to make a new torrent and seed it every day for that to
be effective).




>
>
> --
> Jonathan Hoskin
>
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On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:29:39 +1300, you wrote:

>A couple years ago, some kind people made paid EPG information available
>along with some very helpful user guides on installation. This was really
>good for new people to MythTV, plus it made life easier for all. But
>unfortunately the company that we pay a monthly subscription to decided
>that it would stop this happening.
>
> As a result alternatives were found. But such alternatives are not the
>easiest of things to install and get running especially for people new to
>MythTV. It took me quite a lot of effort to get EPGSnoop up and running.
>
> Going forward a couple of years and there is BitTorrent Sync. My
>understanding is that if read only is used, the data is synced but there is
>no way of tracing where the data is coming from. And as a result the EPG
>data is completely anonymous.
>
> My thought is – is this a EPG delivery method worth considering and would
>there be any support?
>
>Tim

Bittorrent protocol is *not* anonymous. The IP addresses of anyone
connected via Bittorrent are easy to see in your Bittorrent software,
unless you also use an anonymising service such as a torrent proxy or
an anonymising VPN connection. However, Bittorrent Sync encrypts the
data, so only people with the encryption key can see what data is
being shared. I believe it would be possible for anyone to join a
torrent and get a copy of the data being shared, but that copy would
be useless without the key and they would not know what data they had.
But all it would take would be for one person to give away the key,
and then any copies of the data would be able to be decrypted.
Somehow, I do not think the key would remain secret forever.

So I think it would be much better to just keep using epgsnoop. It is
a bit fiddly to get going, but you only have to do that once.

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On 23 October 2014 at 3:56:00 pm, Stephen Worthington (stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz) wrote:

Bittorrent protocol is *not* anonymous. The IP addresses of anyone 
connected via Bittorrent are easy to see in your Bittorrent software, 
unless you also use an anonymising service such as a torrent proxy or 
an anonymising VPN connection. However, Bittorrent Sync encrypts the 
data, so only people with the encryption key can see what data is 
being shared. I believe it would be possible for anyone to join a 
torrent and get a copy of the data being shared, but that copy would 
be useless without the key and they would not know what data they had. 
But all it would take would be for one person to give away the key, 
and then any copies of the data would be able to be decrypted. 
Somehow, I do not think the key would remain secret forever. 
There are Private Trackers for doing such things as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_tracker#Private_trackers

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Hoskin <jonathan.hoskin@gmail.com>
wrote:

> There are Private Trackers for doing such things as well:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_tracker#Private_trackers
>
Private trackers don't solve the problem at all. If someone wants to join
how do you tell if they are a benign user vs an investigator for the TV
stations / media companies / etc?

Cheers,
Steve

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 16:07:44 +1300, you wrote:

>On 23 October 2014 at 3:56:00 pm, Stephen Worthington (stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz) wrote:
>
>>Bittorrent protocol is *not* anonymous. The IP addresses of anyone 
>>connected via Bittorrent are easy to see in your Bittorrent software, 
>>unless you also use an anonymising service such as a torrent proxy or 
>>an anonymising VPN connection. However, Bittorrent Sync encrypts the 
>>data, so only people with the encryption key can see what data is 
>>being shared. I believe it would be possible for anyone to join a 
>>torrent and get a copy of the data being shared, but that copy would 
>>be useless without the key and they would not know what data they had. 
>>But all it would take would be for one person to give away the key, 
>>and then any copies of the data would be able to be decrypted. 
>>Somehow, I do not think the key would remain secret forever. 
>
>>There are Private Trackers for doing such things as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_tracker#Private_trackers

Yes, but that still does not hide your IP address. All it takes is
someone on the torrent using torrent software that shares the torrent
some other way (eg via DHT) and it will then be public. To be safe
when torrenting, you must use an anonymising VPN or anonymising proxy.
That is the only way to hide your IP address.

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On 23/10/14 16:14, Steve Hodge wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Hoskin
> <jonathan.hoskin@gmail.com <mailto:jonathan.hoskin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> There are Private Trackers for doing such things as
> well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_tracker#Private_trackers
>
> Private trackers don't solve the problem at all. If someone wants to
> join how do you tell if they are a benign user vs an investigator for
> the TV stations / media companies / etc?
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
>
The other possible downside of employing such a distribution system is
that the TV Companies may/will one day get tired of paying solicitors to
hammer mole hills back into the earth and decide to implement encryption
of the EPG thus rendering even Epgsnoop ineffective.

Some times it is better to let sleeping dogs lie.

Tony

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On 23/10/14 15:10, Nick Rout wrote:
> There is plenty of law that holds that EPG data is not the subject of
> copyright, as it is simply a compilation of facts. There is such law
> in Oz, which is probably the closest to us jurisprudentially. Of
> course no one wants a fight with Sky to establish this in NZ law. See
> http://techliberty.org.nz/skys-takedown-notices/

Great word. A great shame that no one has been able to prove that here
yet. Ignoring that can of worms;

Perhaps using Bittorrent is worse considering the current state of the
law in NZ regarding file sharing. Isn't there a distinction that
specifically covers peer to peer but not direct download.

hads
--
http://nice.net.nz

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On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hadley Rich <hads@nice.net.nz> wrote:
> On 23/10/14 15:10, Nick Rout wrote:
>>
>> There is plenty of law that holds that EPG data is not the subject of
>> copyright, as it is simply a compilation of facts. There is such law
>> in Oz, which is probably the closest to us jurisprudentially. Of
>> course no one wants a fight with Sky to establish this in NZ law. See
>> http://techliberty.org.nz/skys-takedown-notices/
>
>
> Great word. A great shame that no one has been able to prove that here yet.
> Ignoring that can of worms;
>
> Perhaps using Bittorrent is worse considering the current state of the law
> in NZ regarding file sharing. Isn't there a distinction that specifically
> covers peer to peer but not direct download.

This whole discussion is silly. There isn't a problem. Nothing needs fixing.

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I am sorry I do not agree. Maybe if you only use FreeView where the EPG
information is easy. But for paid TV it is different. EPGSnoop is a very
good thing, I am thankful every day for the person who wrote it, but it is
difficult to install for many and especially new people to Linux. I often
demonstrate and tell people about MythTV and always finish by say it is
very difficult to set-up and maintain. And not recommending they try. If
the paid TV EPG information was as available as Freeview information I
really think it would make a different. It may not be broken – but can it
be made easier and better. I remember how much easier it was before 2010
with the excellent EPG tutorials.


Tim

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hadley Rich <hads@nice.net.nz> wrote:
> > On 23/10/14 15:10, Nick Rout wrote:
> >>
> >> There is plenty of law that holds that EPG data is not the subject of
> >> copyright, as it is simply a compilation of facts. There is such law
> >> in Oz, which is probably the closest to us jurisprudentially. Of
> >> course no one wants a fight with Sky to establish this in NZ law. See
> >> http://techliberty.org.nz/skys-takedown-notices/
> >
> >
> > Great word. A great shame that no one has been able to prove that here
> yet.
> > Ignoring that can of worms;
> >
> > Perhaps using Bittorrent is worse considering the current state of the
> law
> > in NZ regarding file sharing. Isn't there a distinction that specifically
> > covers peer to peer but not direct download.
>
> This whole discussion is silly. There isn't a problem. Nothing needs
> fixing.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtvnz mailing list
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>

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:52:38 +1300, you wrote:

>On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hadley Rich <hads@nice.net.nz> wrote:
>> > On 23/10/14 15:10, Nick Rout wrote:
>> >>
>> >> There is plenty of law that holds that EPG data is not the subject of
>> >> copyright, as it is simply a compilation of facts. There is such law
>> >> in Oz, which is probably the closest to us jurisprudentially. Of
>> >> course no one wants a fight with Sky to establish this in NZ law. See
>> >> http://techliberty.org.nz/skys-takedown-notices/
>> >
>> >
>> > Great word. A great shame that no one has been able to prove that here
>> yet.
>> > Ignoring that can of worms;
>> >
>> > Perhaps using Bittorrent is worse considering the current state of the
>> law
>> > in NZ regarding file sharing. Isn't there a distinction that specifically
>> > covers peer to peer but not direct download.
>>
>> This whole discussion is silly. There isn't a problem. Nothing needs
>> fixing.
>>
>
>I am sorry I do not agree. Maybe if you only use FreeView where the EPG
>information is easy. But for paid TV it is different. EPGSnoop is a very
>good thing, I am thankful every day for the person who wrote it, but it is
>difficult to install for many and especially new people to Linux. I often
>demonstrate and tell people about MythTV and always finish by say it is
>very difficult to set-up and maintain. And not recommending they try. If
>the paid TV EPG information was as available as Freeview information I
>really think it would make a different. It may not be broken – but can it
>be made easier and better. I remember how much easier it was before 2010
>with the excellent EPG tutorials.
>
>
>Tim

I am afraid you rather left yourself open for the classic comeback
here. Why not write a good tutorial on epgsnoop yourself, since that
would solve the problem?

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On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Tim Lockyer <drtimlockyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am sorry I do not agree. Maybe if you only use FreeView where the EPG
> information is easy. But for paid TV it is different. EPGSnoop is a very
> good thing, I am thankful every day for the person who wrote it, but it is
> difficult to install for many and especially new people to Linux. I often
> demonstrate and tell people about MythTV and always finish by say it is very
> difficult to set-up and maintain. And not recommending they try. If the paid
> TV EPG information was as available as Freeview information I really think
> it would make a different. It may not be broken – but can it be made easier
> and better. I remember how much easier it was before 2010 with the excellent
> EPG tutorials.
>
>


Please bottom post, not top.

I am not sure how your proposed bittorrent solution (going outside the
standard xmltv solution that mythtv is set up to use) fixes your
problem.

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