Mailing List Archive

> On 26 Sep 2021, at 3:04 pm, Scott T <scott.the.elm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have been looking at and doing some work on the wiki, and I have noticed most of the pages haven't been updated in a decade. Furthermore, I have noticed that a number of pages are not really in the scope of a wiki about MythTV, particularly pages in the category hardware.



Empty pages (placeholders?) can obviously go.



Pages about keyboards, motherboards, sound cards, or CPUs?
Nothing really MythTV relevant in there.



The ones that are about various tuners, though…
although old,
might be the only place some of these old devices are fully documented?


--
Nigel Pearson, 02 9792 6998, 0408 66 44 35
nigel.pearson.au@gmail.com

On 9/26/21 6:17 AM, Nigel Pearson wrote:
> Empty pages (placeholders?) can obviously go.
The empty files are because users cannot delete pages.  See
https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Template:Ready_for_deletion
> The ones that are about various tuners, though…
> although old,
> might be the only place some of these old devices are fully documented?
Fair enough. I have cleaned up (removed extraneous sections from) the
DViCO pages. I have left the LIRC information there, but I don’t know if
the LinuxTV wiki would want it. (It is probably duplicated but I
couldn’t be bothered to check.)

The IVTV pages should also be archived. I don’t think I had listed any
other tuners for deletion.

New attached list with above modifications and LinuxTV links.  Also at
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XfK5eMI5XAOR3Dt5DUTkWbgBj_a22onqy2DUpytJ3CY/edit?usp=sharing

There are certainly more pages that could be deleted, but I think I have
already duplicated some in the list. Once those are removed, it will be
easier to look through the remaining pages.

Thanks,
Scott

I'm unsure what problem exactly would be solved by deleting these pages.

If the problem is "people assuming this advice reflects the current Myth,"
I would suggest creating a trivial template saying "This page is obsolete"
and tagging relevant pages that way. Outright deletion loses a lot of
history and it's hard to know what "obsolete" advice can lead to insight
into a current issue---or help support an old system.

(And many of the ones you label as "out of scope" were, and maybe are,
useful for hardware associated with MythTV, even if they're not about
precisely and only the MythTV software itself.)
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On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 06:16, <f-myth-users@lab.media.mit.edu> wrote:

> I'm unsure what problem exactly would be solved by deleting these pages.
>
> If the problem is "people assuming this advice reflects the current Myth,"
> I would suggest creating a trivial template saying "This page is obsolete"
> and tagging relevant pages that way. Outright deletion loses a lot of
> history and it's hard to know what "obsolete" advice can lead to insight
> into a current issue---or help support an old system.
>
> (And many of the ones you label as "out of scope" were, and maybe are,
> useful for hardware associated with MythTV, even if they're not about
> precisely and only the MythTV software itself.)
>
> Would it be possible to split the wiki pages into a "current" section and
a "historical" section and move all the old pages to the historical
section? I also think the old pages do have value, if not for the reasons
mentioned above then also to get a bit nostalgic about the past. Some
people actually go to museums and look at old stuff...

Having said that, it would be great if the wiki would be reorganized so
that the main page does point to up-to-date information and that search
actions do give meaningful results.

Klaas.

> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:59:54 +0200
> From: Klaas de Waal <klaas.de.waal@gmail.com>

> Would it be possible to split the wiki pages into a "current" section and
> a "historical" section and move all the old pages to the historical
> section?

Most users aren't really cognizant of the organization of most wikis,
since most of them are sort of random digraphs anyway. And if you land
on a random page from searching, you probably won't have any idea you're
in the "historical" section. That's why I suggested some sort of trivial
template, which then puts up an infobox at the top of the page saying,
"Hey, beware, this doesn't reflect the current release." This is done[1]
all the time on Wikipedia, and in fact they have much more sophisticated
templates in some cases---which would have been nice to have done earlier
here, and which maybe could be done going forward, but would be too much
work to try to do the research to backport. (Plus, we wouldn't want a
complicated solution like that to get in the way of a simple solution.)

[1] Random example, first one I could find:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgActorTableSchemaMigrationStage
Bigger example: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words

Note, for the first URL, both the infobox at the top and the two flags
at the side for which versions they're talking about. I'm saying we
might want to do the trivial infobox at the top, but not get into the
complexity of version-by-version side tabs for historical releases.
But for releases going forward, maybe, if someone has time to port this
and it becomes habitual for authors to use it. (It would be especially
useful for schema, variable, protocol, and API changes, etc, though I
know we have some stuff like that already done as tables.)

> I also think the old pages do have value, if not for the reasons
> mentioned above then also to get a bit nostalgic about the past. Some
> people actually go to museums and look at old stuff...

Yes. Also, some people actually look at old documentation to get clues
about how something might work or might have worked even if they're
running something newer; I've found that helpful for Myth---being able
to look back a ways to see how an old system was supposed to be
configured may help to understand it when upgrading it.

> Having said that, it would be great if the wiki would be reorganized so
> that the main page does point to up-to-date information and that search
> actions do give meaningful results.

Yes, that would be nice.
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On 9/27/21 12:59 PM, Klaas de Waal wrote:
> Would it be possible to split the wiki pages into a "current" section
> and a "historical" section and move all the old pages to the
> historical section? I also think the old pages do have value, if not
> for the reasons mentioned above then also to get a bit nostalgic about
> the past. Some people actually go to museums and look at old stuff...
>
> Having said that, it would be great if the wiki would be reorganized
> so that the main page does point to up-to-date information and that
> search actions do give meaningful results.

If I understand https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace> and
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces>
correctly: create a new namespace (e.g. "Obsolete" or "Historical") with
index in [3000, 5000) and index % 2 == 0 which is not in either
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespacesToBeSearchedDefault
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespacesToBeSearchedDefault>
or https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgContentNamespaces
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgContentNamespaces>

if you do not want to actually delete the pages.

I’m not sure if “Archived” should be in either.

Regarding other reorganization,
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Subpages
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Subpages> might be a possibility.

> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:50:10 -0400
> From: Scott T <scott.the.elm@gmail.com>

> If I understand https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace> and
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces>
> correctly: create a new namespace (e.g. "Obsolete" or "Historical") with
> index in [.3000, 5000) and index % 2 == 0 which is not in either
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespacesToBeSearchedDefault
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespacesToBeSearchedDefault>
> or https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgContentNamespaces
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgContentNamespaces>

> if you do not want to actually delete the pages.

That's an interesting idea. You could then perhaps use CSS (see
"Styling namespaces" in "Using custom namespaces") to give the pages a
distinctive color at least, though I'm unsure if there's some clever way
to also (for example) add some text saying "probably obsolete." (Maybe
there's some CSS element used in every page that could be co-opted
somehow.) If you can't make them visually distinctive, though, in
a way that someone landing on a random page from a search engine
will immediately figure out even if they haven't seen some sort of
explanatory page, this mmay not help much.

This does have the advantage that the pages which are moved into the
namespace don't have their modification date updated and also means that
every such page doesn't have a spurious diff emitted (possibly also to
all watchers) about it. I don't know if that really matters, though.

If namespaces are used, remember to move the Talk: pages, too.

(It would probably be a good idea to upgrade the wiki to the latest LTS
version first, though, in case there are bugs fixed in namespaces since
the ancient version we're currently running. I haven't checked, but I'd
guess there might be. Doing so may also make it easier to have account-
registration code which is less subject to spamming and thus make it
easier to give accounts to potential contributors without involving so
much manual overhead to approve them, which could help in maintenance.)

[.Btw, my earlier template-based idea should probably also put every such
page into a category like "Obsolete," which makes them easier to find if
that's what you're trying to do. One interesting idea even if we don't
go for the fancy per-version templates from my previous examples might
be to create tags which emit text like "first added in Myth v31" and
also have the appropriate category. Then at least going forward, it's
possible to tell if you're looking at documentation that's newer than
whatever it is you're running. But it might be easier just to use the
existing MW template, which is basically the same thing---I just haven't
recursively checked to see how many other templates MW might depend on,
though I'll point out that there -is- some sort of "export this template"
functionality somewhere in MediaWiki to make this sort of thing easier.]
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On 9/27/21 2:22 PM, f-myth-users@lab.media.mit.edu wrote:
> That's an interesting idea. You could then perhaps use CSS (see
> "Styling namespaces" in "Using custom namespaces") to give the pages a
> distinctive color at least, though I'm unsure if there's some clever way
> to also (for example) add some text saying "probably obsolete." (Maybe
> there's some CSS element used in every page that could be co-opted
> somehow.) If you can't make them visually distinctive, though, in
> a way that someone landing on a random page from a search engine
> will immediately figure out even if they haven't seen some sort of
> explanatory page, this mmay not help much.
You could probably co-opt the page title, i.e <h1>, but I don't know CSS.
> This does have the advantage that the pages which are moved into the
> namespace don't have their modification date updated and also means that
> every such page doesn't have a spurious diff emitted (possibly also to
> all watchers) about it. I don't know if that really matters, though.
Another advantage is that even without custom CSS, the page title
becomes prefixed by the namespace name.
> If namespaces are used, remember to move the Talk: pages, too.
That's why you leave the odd numbers available.
> It would probably be a good idea to upgrade the wiki to the latest LTS
> version first, though
I agree.
> [.Btw, my earlier template-based idea should probably also put every such
> page into a category like "Obsolete," which makes them easier to find if
> that's what you're trying to do. One interesting idea even if we don't
> go for the fancy per-version templates from my previous examples might
> be to create tags which emit text like "first added in Myth v31" and
> also have the appropriate category. Then at least going forward, it's
> possible to tell if you're looking at documentation that's newer than
> whatever it is you're running. But it might be easier just to use the
> existing MW template, which is basically the same thing---I just haven't
> recursively checked to see how many other templates MW might depend on,
> though I'll point out that there -is- some sort of "export this template"
> functionality somewhere in MediaWiki to make this sort of thing easier.]
We already have some templates like (what I think) you are suggesting:
https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Templates
All templates:
https://www.mythtv.org/wiki?title=Special:AllPages&namespace=10

Particularly:
UpToDate (maybe these should add to a category like Outdated does)
Outdated and Outdated2 add to Category:Outdated
maybe have a new template that says “marked outdated on {{CURRENTDATE}},
previous edit was on {{REVISIONDATE}}” That is not going to actually
work but I’m not sure how to do that.

{{CurrentRelease}}
{{CurrentReleaseDate}}
{{CurrentFixes}}
{{CurrentDevelopment}}
{{VersionNote|version|text}}
{{Mythtv_version|version}}

On 9/27/21 3:16 PM, Scott T wrote:
> On 9/27/21 2:22 PM, f-myth-users@lab.media.mit.edu wrote:
>> That's an interesting idea. You could then perhaps use CSS (see
>> "Styling namespaces" in "Using custom namespaces") to give the pages a
>> distinctive color at least, though I'm unsure if there's some clever way
>> to also (for example) add some text saying "probably obsolete." (Maybe
>> there's some CSS element used in every page that could be co-opted
>> somehow.) If you can't make them visually distinctive, though, in
>> a way that someone landing on a random page from a search engine
>> will immediately figure out even if they haven't seen some sort of
>> explanatory page, this mmay not help much.
> You could probably co-opt the page title, i.e <h1>, but I don't know CSS.

Something like this adds a message block just after the H1 on every page:

h1#firstHeading::after {
    content: "This is the message";
    background-color: #f99;
    display: block;
    padding: 10px;
    border: 1px solid #d99;
    font-size: 14px;
    font-family: sans-serif;
}

For real-world use, you'd just have to change the selector a bit, once
the pages to receive the message block have an added class. You can play
with this in the Developer mode in a web browser.


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> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:16:19 -0400
> From: Scott T <scott.the.elm@gmail.com>

> Another advantage is that even without custom CSS, the page title
> becomes prefixed by the namespace name.

That could be very handy; if the namespace was Obsolete,
it'd be a good clue. :)

Along with the H1 CSS hack, it might save having to do any edits
to individual pages---just move them to a new namespace.

> We already have some templates like (what I think) you are suggesting:
> https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Templates

I hadn't realized we had a page documenting them. Thanks!

> All templates:
> https://www.mythtv.org/wiki?title=Special:AllPages&namespace=10

VersionNote is close to the "fancy" stuff I was talking about,
although it'd be even better if it automatically added every
page using it to a category corresponding to the version being
noted. (So there's be a "0.28" category, etc.) Also, it doesn't
seem well-known; "what links here?" tells me it's only been used
a dozen times or so.
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