Mailing List Archive

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 2:46 PM Paul Harrison <mythtv@mythqml.net> wrote:
>
> Anyone know why we explicitly reject previously shown dates before 1940?
>

My guess would be that that is because
commercial TV did not start in earnest
until 1938, and I seem to recall that it
was generally accepted that only some
manual film capture of those early
productions (not of the TV screen, of
the actual production) still exist, making
them movies, not broadcast recordings,
as the Kinescope (which recorded the
broadcast on film from a TV monitor)
used to record broadcasts did not exist
before the 1940's?

While technically a radio drama called
"The Queen’s Messenger" was adopted
for TV and broadcast on WRGB in
Schenectady NY in early 1928 as an
experiment, it was received by only a
small handful of experimental TV sets.

If someone has an actual TV recording
on the experimental TVs of the time
that is interesting.



For movies, as I recall, the grabbers
typically store the movie date in the
program airdate (year) field, but that
field is not carried over to the recorded
table. It would seem that if carrying
the movie year is important, that
copying the movie year to the
recorded table would be a feature
request.
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On 12/6/20 9:45 AM, Paul Harrison wrote:
> Anyone know why we explicitly reject previously shown dates before 1940?
>
>
> One example of doing this is here (there are several more instances
> like this one) :-
>
> https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/blob/master/mythtv/libs/libmythtv/recordinginfo.cpp#L129
>
>
>
> There is also this forum post regarding this issue.
>
> https://forum.mythtv.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4139
>
>
> Paul H.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
From git, this is where four 1940,1,1 checks were added -

commit d72eabf6f2dcb1e6d31747991d7eefb21323fb09
Author: Bruce Markey <bmarkey@mythtv.org>
Date:   Fri Mar 2 03:44:28 2007 +0000

    Fix bogus original air dates stuffed into the recorded table.

    Not all programs have original air dates. The absence of a
    date does not mean that this is the first date a program has
    ever been shown and a quarter of all television programs
    ever produced were not all premiered on New Years Eve '70.

    The hasAirDate flag will be set if the date is blank, null,
    year zero, before the history of television or whatever. This
    flag should always be checked before displaying or relying on
    the date stored in the originalairdate. If this flag is not
    set, the date is unknown and whatever garbage date exists in
    the field is meaningless.


Peter

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On 06/12/2020 18:26, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 2:46 PM Paul Harrison <mythtv@mythqml.net> wrote:
>> Anyone know why we explicitly reject previously shown dates before 1940?
>>
> My guess would be that that is because
> commercial TV did not start in earnest
> until 1938, and I seem to recall that it
> was generally accepted that only some
> manual film capture of those early
> productions (not of the TV screen, of
> the actual production) still exist, making
> them movies, not broadcast recordings,
> as the Kinescope (which recorded the
> broadcast on film from a TV monitor)
> used to record broadcasts did not exist
> before the 1940's?
>
> While technically a radio drama called
> "The Queen’s Messenger" was adopted
> for TV and broadcast on WRGB in
> Schenectady NY in early 1928 as an
> experiment, it was received by only a
> small handful of experimental TV sets.
>
> If someone has an actual TV recording
> on the experimental TVs of the time
> that is interesting.
>
>
>
> For movies, as I recall, the grabbers
> typically store the movie date in the
> program airdate (year) field, but that
> field is not carried over to the recorded
> table. It would seem that if carrying
> the movie year is important, that
> copying the movie year to the
> recorded table would be a feature
> request.


I wonder how or where Schedules Direct get there original air dates
from. I have 4 programs with original air date before 1940 in my DB
currently. The earliest is for a program called Marconiphone from
1930-01-01.


I don't have anything with bad dates like the commit found by Peter
appears to be trying to fix. I'm using the XMLTV SD grabber by someone
called Gary something or other I forget his name :)


The 1940 date seems like an arbitrary date chosen at random maybe we
could move it back to say 1920 or even 1900 without doing any harm?


Lets do a quick survey run this query to see what programs if any you
have in the EPG with original air dates before 1940.

SELECT p.chanid, c.name, p.title, p.originalairdate, airdate FROM
program p INNER JOIN channel c ON p.chanid = c.chanid WHERE
p.originalairdate < '1940-1-1';


Paul H.

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On Sun, 2020-12-06 at 21:36 +0000, Paul Harrison wrote:
>
> Lets do a quick survey run this query to see what programs if any you
> have in the EPG with original air dates before 1940.
>
> SELECT p.chanid, c.name, p.title, p.originalairdate, airdate FROM
> program p INNER JOIN channel c ON p.chanid = c.chanid WHERE
> p.originalairdate < '1940-1-1';

I have 16 records. 14 are Three Stooges episodes from various 1937/8
dates, and two are for a movie called Wild West Days from 1937.

David



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On 12/6/20 3:36 PM, Paul Harrison wrote:
> Lets do a quick survey run this query to see what programs if any you have in the EPG with original air dates before 1940.
>
> SELECT p.chanid, c.name, p.title, p.originalairdate, airdate FROM program p INNER JOIN channel c ON p.chanid = c.chanid WHERE
> p.originalairdate < '1940-1-1';

Empty set (0.04 sec), but my cable card was recently returned, this is OTA only.

--
Bill
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On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 9:37 PM Paul Harrison <mythtv@mythqml.net> wrote:

> I wonder how or where Schedules Direct get there original air dates
> from. I have 4 programs with original air date before 1940 in my DB
> currently. The earliest is for a program called Marconiphone from
> 1930-01-01.

I suspect that Schedules Direct uses the
release date for originalairdate for movies
when it can be determined.

Dates (and series/episode), for movies, and TV,
are complicated, and there are complex industry
rules involved for the dates, and none of those
rules necessarily align with how individuals
consider those numbers.

I will mention that for movies, Gracenote
(optionally) has the production year, and
the release date (and yes, they might be
different) available in the raw data.

> The 1940 date seems like an arbitrary date chosen at random maybe we
> could move it back to say 1920 or even 1900 without doing any harm?

I am sure 1940 made sense at the time.

While there was a few minute short that,
according to Guinness, is the oldest
surviving "film" (from 1888), the first
commercial movies are generally
considered to be from around 1895.

I am not a decider, but I think I would
be tempted to just drop the checks
entirely. If the upstream data is bad,
complain to the upstream about their
data quality. At least for Schedules
Direct, their upstream is responsive
to bad data correction.
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On 12/6/20 4:16 PM, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> I suspect that Schedules Direct uses the
> release date for originalairdate for movies
> when it can be determined.

FWIW, mythfilldatabase converts these to originalairdate:

$ grep previously-shown grabber.out |grep '"193'
<previously-shown start="19370514 +0000" />
<previously-shown start="19380218 +0000" />

https://code.mythtv.org/cgit/mythtv/tree/mythtv/programs/mythfilldatabase/xmltvparser.cpp#n466

--
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On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 11:13 PM Bill Meek <keemllib@gmail.com> wrote:

> FWIW, mythfilldatabase converts these to originalairdate:
....
>
> https://code.mythtv.org/cgit/mythtv/tree/mythtv/programs/mythfilldatabase/xmltvparser.cpp#n466
>

Or if you are using the premier SD-JSON grabber
and have enabled the additional metadata, you
can get the originalAirDate explicitly (along the
newEpisode value) passed along from Gracenote
which may be more accurate than a previously-shown.

https://code.mythtv.org/cgit/mythtv/tree/mythtv/programs/mythfilldatabase/xmltvparser.cpp#n640
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On Sun, Dec 06, 2020 at 09:36:38PM +0000, Paul Harrison wrote:
> I wonder how or where Schedules Direct get there original air dates from. I
> have 4 programs with original air date before 1940 in my DB currently. The
> earliest is for a program called Marconiphone from 1930-01-01.
>
>
> I don't have anything with bad dates like the commit found by Peter appears
> to be trying to fix. I'm using the XMLTV SD grabber by someone called Gary
> something or other I forget his name :)
>
>
> The 1940 date seems like an arbitrary date chosen at random maybe we could
> move it back to say 1920 or even 1900 without doing any harm?
>
>
> Lets do a quick survey run this query to see what programs if any you have
> in the EPG with original air dates before 1940.
>
> SELECT p.chanid, c.name, p.title, p.originalairdate, airdate FROM program p
> INNER JOIN channel c ON p.chanid = c.chanid WHERE p.originalairdate <
> '1940-1-1';

Wow quite a bit here:

+--------+---------------------------------+-------------------+-----------------+---------+
| chanid | name | title | originalairdate | airdate |
+--------+---------------------------------+-------------------+-----------------+---------+
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10669 | RBTI | Os Três Patetas | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1563 | Turner Classic Movies Canada HD | Wild West Days | 1937-07-05 | 0000 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 1327 | Turner Classic Movies Canada | Wild West Days | 1937-07-05 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-11-15 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-10-25 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-06-07 | 0000 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10669 | RBTI | Os Três Patetas | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1938-01-03 | 0000 |
| 1563 | Turner Classic Movies Canada HD | Wild West Days | 1937-07-05 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-11-15 | 0000 |
| 1563 | Turner Classic Movies Canada HD | Wild West Days | 1937-07-05 | 0000 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1939-01-16 | 0000 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-05-03 | 0000 |
| 1327 | Turner Classic Movies Canada | Wild West Days | 1937-07-05 | 0000 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 10669 | RBTI | Os Três Patetas | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1939-01-16 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-10-25 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-05-03 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-03-15 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-03-15 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-11-01 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-01-18 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-03-01 | 0000 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1938-01-03 | 0000 |
| 10669 | RBTI | Os Três Patetas | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-03-01 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-11-01 | 0000 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-01-18 | 0000 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 10324 | Silver Screen Classics | Lux Radio Theater | 1937-06-07 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 10669 | RBTI | Os Três Patetas | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10669 | RBTI | Os Três Patetas | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1937-05-14 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1328 | AMC CANADA | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1482 | AMC Canada HD | The Three Stooges | 1938-02-18 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 1327 | Turner Classic Movies Canada | Wild West Days | 1937-07-05 | 0000 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10343 | WSBK | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
| 10571 | WSBKDT (WSBK-DT) | The Three Stooges | 1934-05-05 | 2020 |
+--------+---------------------------------+-------------------+-----------------+---------+

96 entries.

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