Mailing List Archive

virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in
Has anyone considered the idea of creating a virtual TV tuner using some
sort of BitTorrent plug-in?

The plug-in would serve two functions:

On the publishing side it would take shows you've recorded, or some
designated subset of them, and publish them via BitTorrent.

On the subscribe side, it would appear as a virtual tuner to MythTV, be
assigned the lowest priority of your tuners, and able to record any
non-premium channel shown in your listings.


Some of the challenges I see in doing this:

On the publishing side: BitTorrent is designed to work with one
identical file that has pieces distributed across many servers. In this
case there might be thousands of MythTV users all recording and
publishing the same file, yet each would be slightly different and their
pieces not interchangeable.

One solution might be having an automated process where the source
(seed) for a given program is chosen at random, with some "reputation"
stats stored in a database somewhere, such that high-quality publishers
with fast upload times are favored, while also making sure to distribute
which servers act as seeds so no single server is over burdened. From
that point onward, it would follow the normal BitTorrent model of
distribution.

On the subscribe side: there would be no guarantee that the show you
want will actually become available, as it won't get published until
after the show airs. (I guess people on the West Coast would have some
advantage there, if torrent availability information was rolled-in to
the TV listings UI.) But that's why you give the virtual tuner the
lowest priority. Might get recorded is still better than definitely
won't get recorded.

The quality of the recordings might vary greatly. The above mentioned
feedback mechanism should eventually lead to the better quality
publishers being favored.

Shows being "recorded" (downloaded) via this virtual tuner might take
days to record. That'll be inconvenient, but again, for low priority
shows, it's still an improvement over not getting recorded.

Then of course there are the legal issues. Limiting what you can publish
to shown from commercially supported channels and making them available
for a limited duration, and what you can receive to channels on your
existing listings, might be enough to stay under the radar, even though
these are easily defeated. Similarly, although it would be nice to chop
out the commercials, leaving them in might be safer.

The "reputation" database might also prove to be a liability if it ends
up being a database of IP addresses of those publishing content. Some
thought would need to go into the design to avoid that. (Ideally, you
want that database or seed picking mechanism to be distributed anyway,
to avoid a single point of failure.)

One alternative is to forget the idea of a feedback system, and just
have the seed picker examine the video for measurable characteristics,
like the encoding scheme, bitrate, resolution, etc. and it simply picks
the first seed offered that meets the minimum criteria. Using this
scheme I could see supporting multiple virtual tuners, each with its own
characteristics. So you might set up an HD one, with a lower priority
SD one as a fallback. Or a user of mvpmc that natively only handles
MPEG2 might set up a virtual tuner that only accepts that format
content. (There would have to be a limited set of options, as each would
need a seed picker.)


Any existing projects that touch on these ideas?

-Tom

--
Tom Metro
Venture Logic, Newton, MA, USA
"Enterprise solutions through open source."
Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
On Friday 13 April 2007 1:52:47 pm Tom Metro wrote:
> Has anyone considered the idea of creating a virtual TV tuner using some
> sort of BitTorrent plug-in?
>
> The plug-in would serve two functions:
>
> On the publishing side it would take shows you've recorded, or some
> designated subset of them, and publish them via BitTorrent.
>
> On the subscribe side, it would appear as a virtual tuner to MythTV, be
> assigned the lowest priority of your tuners, and able to record any
> non-premium channel shown in your listings.

Uh, absolutely not?

Isaac
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
On 4/13/07, Tom Metro <tmetro+mythtv-dev@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then of course there are the legal issues. Limiting what you can publish
> to shown from commercially supported channels and making them available
> for a limited duration, and what you can receive to channels on your
> existing listings, might be enough to stay under the radar, even though
> these are easily defeated. Similarly, although it would be nice to chop
> out the commercials, leaving them in might be safer.

The legality of a project is a major concern for everyone involved.
Sure, there's lots of cool things that can be done that are illegal,
but the developers are responsible for the code and their names are
right out there in the open. It's like stealing from a store and
leaving your photo id behind.

Now, as for your suggestion, it is entirely illegal and something that
the Myth community has said time and time again they will not condone
nor will they actively help out.

~Rob
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Rob Smith wrote:
> The legality of a project is a major concern for everyone involved.
>
> Now, as for your suggestion, it is entirely illegal and something that
> the Myth community has said time and time again they will not condone
> nor will they actively help out.

I think it is pushing the envelope, given the way our copyright laws
have gone increasingly in the direction of favoring corporations,
however I didn't feel it was indefensibly illegal, or I wouldn't have
proposed it. (Apparently the BitTorrent developers have found some
ground in this area that they feel comfortable with.)

But if this or similar issues have already been discussed by the
developers and deemed outside the area of comfort, that's a sufficient
response. Thanks.

-Tom

--
Tom Metro
Venture Logic, Newton, MA, USA
"Enterprise solutions through open source."
Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
I agree with Isaac and Rob on this. Whilst projects such as azureus are
not illegal as such, they promote activities which may strictly speaking
be outside of the law. Myth has always been a squeaky clean project, and
it's not worth sacrificing that for something which can only be
considered 'auxilliary' functionality.

Of course, if you can always use a file sharing program, and watch the
resulting files using mythvideo - although I would never encourage you
to do so. You could even write you own plugin that you could use
yourself - but this sort of thing should never become part of the main
build, or even be promoted on the Wiki.

Martin

On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 15:34 -0400, Tom Metro wrote:
> Rob Smith wrote:
> > The legality of a project is a major concern for everyone involved.
> >
> > Now, as for your suggestion, it is entirely illegal and something that
> > the Myth community has said time and time again they will not condone
> > nor will they actively help out.
>
> I think it is pushing the envelope, given the way our copyright laws
> have gone increasingly in the direction of favoring corporations,
> however I didn't feel it was indefensibly illegal, or I wouldn't have
> proposed it. (Apparently the BitTorrent developers have found some
> ground in this area that they feel comfortable with.)
>
> But if this or similar issues have already been discussed by the
> developers and deemed outside the area of comfort, that's a sufficient
> response. Thanks.
>
> -Tom
>

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Martin Long wrote:
> I agree with Isaac and Rob on this. Whilst projects such as azureus are
> not illegal as such, they promote activities which may strictly speaking
> be outside of the law. Myth has always been a squeaky clean project, and
> it's not worth sacrificing that for something which can only be
> considered 'auxilliary' functionality.

I might point out that in some countries (Australia included) it is
strictly-speaking illegal to record broadcast TV shows on OTA channels
(at least that used to be the law, but IANAL so it may have changed in
the last decade).

So in a way, Myth also "promotes activities which may strictly speaking
be outside of the law" :)

Johan.

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
On Apr 13, 2007, at 3:34 PM, Johan wrote:

> Martin Long wrote:
>> I agree with Isaac and Rob on this. Whilst projects such as
>> azureus are
>> not illegal as such, they promote activities which may strictly
>> speaking
>> be outside of the law. Myth has always been a squeaky clean
>> project, and
>> it's not worth sacrificing that for something which can only be
>> considered 'auxilliary' functionality.
>
> I might point out that in some countries (Australia included) it is
> strictly-speaking illegal to record broadcast TV shows on OTA channels
> (at least that used to be the law, but IANAL so it may have changed in
> the last decade).
>
> So in a way, Myth also "promotes activities which may strictly
> speaking
> be outside of the law" :)
>
> Johan.

I don't think that's the case. Myth does not encourage Australians to
perform any such activities. In fact, I believe you have to get some
3rd party script to get listings for Australian content providers.
I'm not Australian so I never bothered looking into it, but from the
posts I've seen that seems to be the case. Any discussion of it is
purely for academic purposes - the theory of what it would take to
institute that sort of technology. Just like ripping commercial DVD's
in the US is not promoted by myth, but in countries where it's legal
they make it a whole lot easier.
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Rob Smith wrote:
> ...something that the Myth community has said time and time again
> they will not condone nor will they actively help out.

I didn't find this on my prior searches through list archives, but I ran
across this today:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Feature_Wishlist
* Peer-to-peer sharing of shows with friends who also use MythTV
uhm... can you spell l-a-w-s-u-i-t?) NEVER going to happen with
core Myth

which references these threads:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/7175
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/30199

from 2002 and 2003 respectively. All of which conclude in the same way
as this thread. I'll add my thread to the list of links.

Sorry for the retread.

-Tom

--
Tom Metro
Venture Logic, Newton, MA, USA
"Enterprise solutions through open source."
Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
> Myth does not encourage Australians to
> perform any such activities. In fact, I believe you have to get some
> 3rd party script to get listings for Australian content providers.

Well, EIT circumvents this a little,
but yes, published guide data is copyrighted.
Let's ignore that for now, though.

What Johan is saying, is that apart from the guide data,
the moment the backend records anything, that is also
breaking copyright (of the broadcast programme).



But so is CD ripping, DVD ripping, weather site scraping.

I am personally not interested in BitTorrent video (yet),
but if there was a publically available library that would
add BT as a network protocol, developers could use it as
one of several "video streaming" channels.
(i.e. make it optional, in the same way as libdvdcss)

Note that I don't have time to code anything like this up.

--
Nigel Pearson, nigel@ind.tansu.com.au|"I thought I said no shivs."
Telstra Net. Eng., Sydney, Australia | "This? This is just a
Office: 9202 3900 Fax: 9261 3912 | personal grooming appliance"
Mobile: 0408 664435 Home: 9792 6998 | Riddick - Pitch Black

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
On 4/16/07, Nigel Pearson <nigel@ind.tansu.com.au> wrote:
>
> What Johan is saying, is that apart from the guide data,
> the moment the backend records anything, that is also
> breaking copyright (of the broadcast programme).

[in Australia].

Of course VCRs and FoxTel's own iQ PVR also breach copyright in the same
way. There's never been any enforcement against users of any of those
devices (to my knowledge) and the devices themselves are legally sold
despite infringement being their principle purpose and use. MythTV certainly
isn't doing anything unusual in providing recording capabilities even if it
might be (strictly speaking) illegal to use those capabilities in Australia.
A download plugin would be going far beyond that though.

Steve
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
On 13/04/07, Martin Long <mythtv@longhome.co.uk> wrote:
> I agree with Isaac and Rob on this. Whilst projects such as azureus are
> not illegal as such, they promote activities which may strictly speaking
> be outside of the law. Myth has always been a squeaky clean project, and

Out of interest and in light of this last statement, what is the legal
status of ripping copyrighted CDs and DVDs in the US? I'm certain (and
reading a current /. thread on new unplayable Sony DVDs seems to
confirm) that this is still clearly illegal and runs contrary to the
above statement, yet this functionality is provided in each MythTV
release.

> Of course, if you can always use a file sharing program, and watch the
> resulting files using mythvideo - although I would never encourage you
> to do so.

If a user is wanting to download and watch CC-licensed
pod/vod/netcasts, this is precisely the approach I would take (and
do), and media creators suggest.

At the end of the day, having an internet connection is all it takes
to download copyrighted material. P2P programs just happen to make
electronic material (which includes copyrighted works) easier to
locate and often quicker to download. I'm guessing integrating P2P
support into MythTV makes the developers uncomfortable enough (even in
light of the other 'questionable' functionality) to include it in the
future.

Nick
--
MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
In actual fact, there is nothing wrong with ripping CDs and DVDs in the US,
or pretty much anywhere else. There could be perfectly legitimate reasons
for doing so - they could be your own work, for example, to which you own
the copyright.

CD/DVD mastering and duplication services would be in a great deal of
difficulty if they weren't able to rip a master.

What IS illegal, under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, is the use of
methods to circumvent digital rights management. This functionality is not
provided by mythtv, but by a separate library you have to obtain from
elsewhere.

-----Original Message-----
From: mythtv-dev-bounces@mythtv.org [mailto:mythtv-dev-bounces@mythtv.org]
On Behalf Of Nick Morrott
Sent: 16 April 2007 09:07
To: Development of mythtv
Subject: Re: [mythtv] virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in

On 13/04/07, Martin Long <mythtv@longhome.co.uk> wrote:
> I agree with Isaac and Rob on this. Whilst projects such as azureus are
> not illegal as such, they promote activities which may strictly speaking
> be outside of the law. Myth has always been a squeaky clean project, and

Out of interest and in light of this last statement, what is the legal
status of ripping copyrighted CDs and DVDs in the US? I'm certain (and
reading a current /. thread on new unplayable Sony DVDs seems to
confirm) that this is still clearly illegal and runs contrary to the
above statement, yet this functionality is provided in each MythTV
release.

> Of course, if you can always use a file sharing program, and watch the
> resulting files using mythvideo - although I would never encourage you
> to do so.

If a user is wanting to download and watch CC-licensed
pod/vod/netcasts, this is precisely the approach I would take (and
do), and media creators suggest.

At the end of the day, having an internet connection is all it takes
to download copyrighted material. P2P programs just happen to make
electronic material (which includes copyrighted works) easier to
locate and often quicker to download. I'm guessing integrating P2P
support into MythTV makes the developers uncomfortable enough (even in
light of the other 'questionable' functionality) to include it in the
future.

Nick
--
MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin
Franklin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
On 16/04/07, Martin Long <mythtv@longhome.co.uk> wrote:
> In actual fact, there is nothing wrong with ripping CDs and DVDs in the US,
> or pretty much anywhere else. There could be perfectly legitimate reasons
> for doing so - they could be your own work, for example, to which you own
> the copyright.
>
> CD/DVD mastering and duplication services would be in a great deal of
> difficulty if they weren't able to rip a master.

The former is infringing copyright if the ripper does not hold the
copyright or a license to copy the material, irrespective of the DMCA.
Mastering and duplication is typically carried out under license with
the rights holder's permission, or by the rights holder itself.

Although libdvdcss is not provided with MythTV (and even some distros)
and is not always required to rip copyrighted material, the
integration of IMDB lookups for DVD rips within MythVideo and album
art lookups in MythMusic is part of MythTV and these would certainly
appear to be looking for the presence of copyrighted material on the
system.

> What IS illegal, under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, is the use of
> methods to circumvent digital rights management. This functionality is not
> provided by mythtv, but by a separate library you have to obtain from
> elsewhere.

The DMCA is *part* of copyright law in the US, specific to creating
and/or using technologies to circumvent copy protection schemes. A
user would still be breaking the law even if libdvdcss was not
required in order to rip such copyrighted material.

Nick
--
MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Yes... but the point is, ripping or copying a CD or DVD is NOT illegal
unless the CD or DVD is copyrighted material. A photocopier is not illegal,
photocopying an entire novel is. A car may do speeds up to 200 miles an
hour, but the car itself is not illegal. Rip / copy programs are not
illegal, as, like I said, you might want to rip / copy your own personal
material (home videos, recordings of your own band etc). Circumventing DRM,
however is illegal in the US.

However, I suppose that you could also say in the same light that
filesharing is not illegal, if it is not copyrighted material. :S

-----Original Message-----
From: mythtv-dev-bounces@mythtv.org [mailto:mythtv-dev-bounces@mythtv.org]
On Behalf Of Nick Morrott
Sent: 16 April 2007 11:01
To: Development of mythtv
Subject: Re: [mythtv] virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in

On 16/04/07, Martin Long <mythtv@longhome.co.uk> wrote:
> In actual fact, there is nothing wrong with ripping CDs and DVDs in the
US,
> or pretty much anywhere else. There could be perfectly legitimate reasons
> for doing so - they could be your own work, for example, to which you own
> the copyright.
>
> CD/DVD mastering and duplication services would be in a great deal of
> difficulty if they weren't able to rip a master.

The former is infringing copyright if the ripper does not hold the
copyright or a license to copy the material, irrespective of the DMCA.
Mastering and duplication is typically carried out under license with
the rights holder's permission, or by the rights holder itself.

Although libdvdcss is not provided with MythTV (and even some distros)
and is not always required to rip copyrighted material, the
integration of IMDB lookups for DVD rips within MythVideo and album
art lookups in MythMusic is part of MythTV and these would certainly
appear to be looking for the presence of copyrighted material on the
system.

> What IS illegal, under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, is the use of
> methods to circumvent digital rights management. This functionality is not
> provided by mythtv, but by a separate library you have to obtain from
> elsewhere.

The DMCA is *part* of copyright law in the US, specific to creating
and/or using technologies to circumvent copy protection schemes. A
user would still be breaking the law even if libdvdcss was not
required in order to rip such copyrighted material.

Nick
--
MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin
Franklin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Martin Long wrote:
> Yes... but the point is, ripping or copying a CD or DVD is NOT illegal
> unless the CD or DVD is copyrighted material. A photocopier is not illegal,
> photocopying an entire novel is. A car may do speeds up to 200 miles an
> hour, but the car itself is not illegal. Rip / copy programs are not
> illegal, as, like I said, you might want to rip / copy your own personal
> material (home videos, recordings of your own band etc). Circumventing DRM,
> however is illegal in the US.
>
> However, I suppose that you could also say in the same light that
> filesharing is not illegal, if it is not copyrighted material. :S
>
Yes, but right now, BitTorrent is socially synonymous with pirating.
Perhaps when more DRM-free or linux compatible DRM products based on
BitTorrent become available and mainstream then work may be more
accepted to integrating them into MythTV type products, but until then,
it smacks of wanting to make it easier to get your copyrighted material
on your TV...

Kevin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Martin Long wrote:
> Yes... but the point is, ripping or copying a CD or DVD is NOT illegal
> unless the CD or DVD is copyrighted material. A photocopier is not illegal,
> photocopying an entire novel is. A car may do speeds up to 200 miles an
> hour, but the car itself is not illegal. Rip / copy programs are not
> illegal, as, like I said, you might want to rip / copy your own personal
> material (home videos, recordings of your own band etc). Circumventing DRM,
> however is illegal in the US.
>
> However, I suppose that you could also say in the same light that
> filesharing is not illegal, if it is not copyrighted material. :S
>
I can't really comment on the legalities of the arguments, but I do have
a scenario: I can (and do) record via MythTV the Fox TV show 24, in HD,
using an OTA antenna. I also have MythTV remove the commercials, so when
I watch the show, all I see is 24, no commercials, no advertising, etc.
Say I miss an episode for whatever reason and I hypothetically download
the show and watch it, with the exact same user experience. I suspect my
wife would not even notice a difference. How is that illegal? The show
is broadcast freely over the air for anyone with the proper equipment to
receive it, so if they care to give it away like that, then how can they
be upset if I get the same show via alternate methods? I haven't
deprived them of advertising eyeballs because I don't ever see them
anyway, and I'm not a 'Neilsen' household, so they aren't losing
ratings. Some shows allow you to download the episodes from their
website, so again, where is the problem exactly?

Anyway, I've always wondered about that, I'm sure someone will provide
an argument against my hypotheses...

Tom

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Tom Lichti wrote:
> Martin Long wrote:
>
>> Yes... but the point is, ripping or copying a CD or DVD is NOT illegal
>> unless the CD or DVD is copyrighted material. A photocopier is not illegal,
>> photocopying an entire novel is. A car may do speeds up to 200 miles an
>> hour, but the car itself is not illegal. Rip / copy programs are not
>> illegal, as, like I said, you might want to rip / copy your own personal
>> material (home videos, recordings of your own band etc). Circumventing DRM,
>> however is illegal in the US.
>>
>> However, I suppose that you could also say in the same light that
>> filesharing is not illegal, if it is not copyrighted material. :S
>>
>>
> I can't really comment on the legalities of the arguments, but I do have
> a scenario: I can (and do) record via MythTV the Fox TV show 24, in HD,
> using an OTA antenna. I also have MythTV remove the commercials, so when
> I watch the show, all I see is 24, no commercials, no advertising, etc.
> Say I miss an episode for whatever reason and I hypothetically download
> the show and watch it, with the exact same user experience. I suspect my
> wife would not even notice a difference. How is that illegal? The show
> is broadcast freely over the air for anyone with the proper equipment to
> receive it, so if they care to give it away like that, then how can they
> be upset if I get the same show via alternate methods? I haven't
> deprived them of advertising eyeballs because I don't ever see them
> anyway, and I'm not a 'Neilsen' household, so they aren't losing
> ratings. Some shows allow you to download the episodes from their
> website, so again, where is the problem exactly?
>
> Anyway, I've always wondered about that, I'm sure someone will provide
> an argument against my hypotheses...
>
>
Such is why commercial skip algorithms such as those used by ReplayTV
were taken to court but I don't ever recall the outcome.

As the copyright holder, you do pretty much get to say what you can and
cannot do with your content, no matter what medium you put it out
there. Look at the GPL, it clearly defines what you can do with code
that is broadcast "in the clear" for everyone to see yet open sourcers
vehemently defend it...

Kevin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
IANAL, but TV is basically considered as a performance.
Live TV is an artistic creation as it is being shown,
anything pre-recorded is purchased by the station or
network, from the creator, with specific rights of use
(the license).

(Not that there is anything artistic about most of the junk
that they transmit, but copyright is about artistic work)


So, a worst case copyright judgement might be:


> a scenario: I can (and do) record via MythTV the Fox TV show 24, in
> HD,
> using an OTA antenna.

Infringement 1. Illegal copying of a licenced performance.


> I also have MythTV remove the commercials,

Infringement 2. Modifying non-licenced material.


> so when I watch the show

Infringement 3. Re-performing non-licenced material.

...
> Say I miss an episode for whatever reason and I hypothetically
> download
> the show and watch it

(assuming you are downloading, rather than watching a stream)

Infringement 4. Posessing non-licenced material, and

Infringement 5. Re-performing non-licenced material.

...
> The show
> is broadcast freely over the air for anyone with the proper
> equipment to
> receive it

Receive and watch it, at the time they "perform" it,
in the environment they decree (i.e. with adverts).


> Some shows allow you to download the episodes from their
> website, so again, where is the problem exactly?

Different license, and usually very different quality,
so that you will want to see the latest episode,
in all its prime-time, commercial laden, glory.

--
Nigel Pearson, nigel@ind.tansu.com.au| "Peacemaking is our profession"
Telstra Net. Eng., Sydney, Australia |Motto of Burpelson Airforce Base
Office: 9202 3900 Fax: 9261 3912 |Commanded by Gen. Jack D. Ripper
Mobile: 0408 664435 Home: 9792 6998 | Dr Strangelove

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Nigel Pearson wrote:
> IANAL, but TV is basically considered as a performance.
> Live TV is an artistic creation as it is being shown,
> anything pre-recorded is purchased by the station or
> network, from the creator, with specific rights of use
> (the license).
>
> (Not that there is anything artistic about most of the junk
> that they transmit, but copyright is about artistic work)
>
>
> So, a worst case copyright judgement might be:
>
>
>
>> a scenario: I can (and do) record via MythTV the Fox TV show 24, in
>> HD,
>> using an OTA antenna.
>>
>
> Infringement 1. Illegal copying of a licenced performance.
>
>
>
>> I also have MythTV remove the commercials,
>>
>
> Infringement 2. Modifying non-licenced material.
>
>
>
>> so when I watch the show
>>
>
> Infringement 3. Re-performing non-licenced material.
>
> ...
>
>> Say I miss an episode for whatever reason and I hypothetically
>> download
>> the show and watch it
>>
>
> (assuming you are downloading, rather than watching a stream)
>
> Infringement 4. Posessing non-licenced material, and
>
> Infringement 5. Re-performing non-licenced material.
>
> ...
>
>> The show
>> is broadcast freely over the air for anyone with the proper
>> equipment to
>> receive it
>>
>
> Receive and watch it, at the time they "perform" it,
> in the environment they decree (i.e. with adverts).
>
>
>
>> Some shows allow you to download the episodes from their
>> website, so again, where is the problem exactly?
>>
>
> Different license, and usually very different quality,
> so that you will want to see the latest episode,
> in all its prime-time, commercial laden, glory.
>
So essentially everything about MythTV is technically illegal. I guess
the question then is why is BitTorrent so much MORE illegal that what we
are doing now?

Just for the record, I'm not for or against it one way or the other,
just playing devil's advocate.

Tom

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Note: IANALBIHSCLAALS (but I have studied copyright law at a law
school). The comments below apply to US copyright standards only. They
are my opinion, and not those of a lawyer, my employer, my employer's
lawyers, my cats, or my employer's lawyers's cats.

> IANAL, but TV is basically considered as a performance.
> Live TV is an artistic creation as it is being shown,
> anything pre-recorded is purchased by the station or
> network, from the creator, with specific rights of use
> (the license).
>
> (Not that there is anything artistic about most of the junk
> that they transmit, but copyright is about artistic work)
>
>
> So, a worst case copyright judgement might be:
>
>
> > a scenario: I can (and do) record via MythTV the Fox TV show 24, in
> > HD,
> > using an OTA antenna.
>
> Infringement 1. Illegal copying of a licenced performance.

Wrong. Broadcasters do not currently have any copyright-type control
over the content they distribute. In the context of television there is
no such thing as a "licensed performance". You did not sign a license
when you turned on your television, especially if you're just pulling
the show OTA, so there is no license. Only copyright law applies. As
for the copyright law side of things, the Supreme Court held that
time-shifting is a fair use of copyrighted material.

> > I also have MythTV remove the commercials,
>
> Infringement 2. Modifying non-licenced material.

Wrong. See point (1) about the lack of any license. As for the
modification itself, it is the distribution or publication of modified
work that generally runs afoul of copyright law. For example, I can go
out and buy a copy of the "Hacking MythTV" book (or, in my case, request
it as an Xmas present :)); once the book is mine I can scan it into my
home computer, print out dozens of copies, shred those copies, use text
or image editing programs to manipulate the copies I have to say "Justin
r0x0r5", and pretty much do anything I want with them.

I cannot, however, distribute those modifications without running afoul
of copyright law.

> > so when I watch the show
>
> Infringement 3. Re-performing non-licenced material.

Wrong. See point (1) about the lack of a license. Also see point (2)
about private use versus public distribution.

> ...
> > Say I miss an episode for whatever reason and I hypothetically
> > download
> > the show and watch it
>
> (assuming you are downloading, rather than watching a stream)
>
> Infringement 4. Posessing non-licenced material, and

Wrong. There are only three types of copyright infringement: direct,
contributory, and vicarious. There is no such things as "possession of
non-licensed material".

> Infringement 5. Re-performing non-licenced material.

Wrong. See point (3).

> ...
> > The show
> > is broadcast freely over the air for anyone with the proper
> > equipment to
> > receive it
>
> Receive and watch it, at the time they "perform" it,
> in the environment they decree (i.e. with adverts).

It is not a performance, it is a distribution. US law allows for time
shifting and other MythTV goodness.

> > Some shows allow you to download the episodes from their
> > website, so again, where is the problem exactly?
>
> Different license, and usually very different quality,
> so that you will want to see the latest episode,
> in all its prime-time, commercial laden, glory.

And by "different" I can only assume you mean "there is one when
downloading off a station's website and there is none when getting OTA
broadcasts".

As for the "I own the [DVD|CD|whatever] so I can download it, right?",
that argument is BOGUS. It doesn't matter if you already own the
content in one form. You cannot go and download it off the 'net (i.e.,
requesting and therefore causing the uploader to make and distribute an
illegal copy of the show) just because you can't find the disc in your
mess of an apartment/house/whatever.

As for the virtual tuner, I think it would (in theory) be neat and
perfectly legal for MythTV to integrate RSS feeds/bittorrent downloads
from legal sources such as those listed here:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/08/0328214&from=rss

However, I will certainly respect the wishes of the MythTV devs and not
push for such a feature.

-jdm

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
On 16/04/07, Martin Long <mythtv@longhome.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes... but the point is, ripping or copying a CD or DVD is NOT illegal
> unless the CD or DVD is copyrighted material. A photocopier is not illegal,
> photocopying an entire novel is. A car may do speeds up to 200 miles an
> hour, but the car itself is not illegal. Rip / copy programs are not
> illegal, as, like I said, you might want to rip / copy your own personal
> material (home videos, recordings of your own band etc). Circumventing DRM,
> however is illegal in the US.
>
> However, I suppose that you could also say in the same light that
> filesharing is not illegal, if it is not copyrighted material. :S

My point exactly.

Nick
--
MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
On 16/04/07, Kevin Kuphal <kuphal@dls.net> wrote:
> Martin Long wrote:
> > However, I suppose that you could also say in the same light that
> > filesharing is not illegal, if it is not copyrighted material. :S
> >
> Yes, but right now, BitTorrent is socially synonymous with pirating.

I would similarly contend that, like it or not, ripping CDs and DVDs
falls into exactly the same category in the broader social environment
(a quick Google for 'dvd rip' seems to bear this out). Sony seem to
regularly break their discs for this reason...

However, I'm 100% against the specific premise of the plugin the OP
describes as it clearly invites breaching copyright law across most of
the world.

For useful and general functionality however, I'd love to have 1-click
downloads (P2P/RSS) of distributable media from with the frontend
client without having to currently rely on other scripts and
applications.

Nick
--
MythTV Official wiki:
http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Tom Lichti wrote:
> Martin Long wrote:
>> Yes... but the point is, ripping or copying a CD or DVD is NOT illegal
>> unless the CD or DVD is copyrighted material. A photocopier is not illegal,
>> photocopying an entire novel is. A car may do speeds up to 200 miles an
>> hour, but the car itself is not illegal. Rip / copy programs are not
>> illegal, as, like I said, you might want to rip / copy your own personal
>> material (home videos, recordings of your own band etc). Circumventing DRM,
>> however is illegal in the US.
>>
>> However, I suppose that you could also say in the same light that
>> filesharing is not illegal, if it is not copyrighted material. :S
>>
> I can't really comment on the legalities of the arguments, but I do have
> a scenario: I can (and do) record via MythTV the Fox TV show 24, in HD,
> using an OTA antenna. I also have MythTV remove the commercials, so when
> I watch the show, all I see is 24, no commercials, no advertising, etc.
> Say I miss an episode for whatever reason and I hypothetically download
> the show and watch it, with the exact same user experience. I suspect my
> wife would not even notice a difference. How is that illegal?

Not an argument, but the legal position of the RIAA and Canadian CRA is
that the person who made the copy and provided it to you, did so
illegally and that therefore your copy is an illegal copy (and you are
equally culpable). It is a neat and logical legal argument...
Notwithstanding that it is ultimately stupid, since no-one involved in
this sort of copying does so for the purpose of gain. We are not talking
about making hundreds of thousands of DVDs...

>The show
> is broadcast freely over the air for anyone with the proper equipment to
> receive it, so if they care to give it away like that, then how can they
> be upset if I get the same show via alternate methods?

Because the show is broadcast as part of Faustian bargain: the show is
SOLD to the TV network (actually licenced) for broadcast under limited
terms. The network sells advertising on a similar basis: that a certain
number of eyes will watch the show *and the commercials*. You are one
pair of those eyeballs, and you never knew that you had no right to
watch what you wanted, however you wanted, did you?

> I haven't
> deprived them of advertising eyeballs because I don't ever see them
> anyway, and I'm not a 'Neilsen' household, so they aren't losing
> ratings. Some shows allow you to download the episodes from their
> website, so again, where is the problem exactly?

But they do NOT think that way. You possibly, maybe, could be (shhh..)
buying that improper, illegal, scabrous, necrotic copy. (Worse yet, in
this licentious age, you might even (gasp) enjoy watching it!). And if
you *buy* it, then *they don't get paid*...Better that you should be
messed over to decrease the off-chance that you might buy an illegal
copy, than that the for-profit copier should be whacked....Because of
course you *are* right. Once the show has been broadcast, the producer
should be welcoming alternate but free distribution channels as
advertising *his* product, not floor cleaners and paper towels....

But nooooo.....

> Anyway, I've always wondered about that, I'm sure someone will provide
> an argument against my hypotheses...

It's illegal because it is. So there!.



R. Geoffrey Newbury
Barrister and Solicitor
Suite 106, 150 Lakeshore Road West
Mississauga, Ontario, L5H 3R2

o905-271-9600 f905-271-1638
newbury@mandamus.org

Helping with the HTTP issue
<a href="http://www.w3.org/Protocols/">HTTP</a>
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
R. G. Newbury wrote:
> Tom Lichti wrote:
>
>> Anyway, I've always wondered about that, I'm sure someone will provide
>> an argument against my hypotheses...
>>
>
> It's illegal because it is. So there!.
>
I should have known the lawyer would pipe up... :)

Anyway, I get all that, but it still doesn't make any sense...

Tom

_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev
Re: virtual tuner via BitTorrent plug-in [ In reply to ]
Nick Morrott wrote:
> However, I'm 100% against the specific premise of the plugin the OP
> describes as it clearly invites breaching copyright law across most of
> the world.

As the OP of this thread...I didn't intend to start a legal argument, as
I was satisfied to see the thread die once it was deemed outside the
purview of MythTV.

However, as this has been brought up, I'd like to clarify a few points:

In the US, recording of TV programs for personal use is permissible, and
was settled by a supreme court case brought against the early
manufacturers of VCRs (Sony I believe).

From this it seems reasonable to conclude that other similar behavior,
like recording non-DRM protected broadcast video to a digital device,
such as MythTV, would similarly hold up in court. (I don't know if this
has been specifically tested in the courts, or whether newer revisions
of the copyright law, such as the DMCA have incorporated specific
language to permit this, or if it is just generally assumed to be so
close to the VCR situation as to not be in doubt.)

My proposal included the stipulation that the shows made available to a
user of the virtual tuner be limited to shows that the user already had
access to (with commercials, and possibly even recorded in the same
geographical area). (You can argue that any such limitations can easily
be defeated in an open source project, but it still establishes an
effort to not condone illegal behavior.)

From a purely legal stand point, this restriction probably wouldn't be
adequate to hold up in court, as it involves distribution, as pointed out:

Justin Moore wrote:
> As for the "I own the [DVD|CD|whatever] so I can download it, right?",
> that argument is BOGUS. It doesn't matter if you already own the
> content in one form. You cannot go and download it off the 'net (i.e.,
> requesting and therefore causing the uploader to make and distribute an
> illegal copy of the show) just because you can't find the disc in your
> mess of an apartment/house/whatever.

but ultimately it would need to be tested in the courts.

My view is that it is definitely getting into a gray area, even if it
still complies with the spirit of the law (in my opinion), and therefore
I can understand why core MythTV developers would not want to take the risk.

What I proposed wasn't intended to solving the problem of giving users
access to vast quantities of illegal content. It is, just as the title
suggests, providing the user with a virtual tuner, that provides for
them (a subset of) the same content that they can obtain from a physical
tuner card. It's merely a technical solution to save money on tuner
hardware, accomplished with distributed computing, that happens to reach
beyond your LAN.


> As for the virtual tuner, I think it would (in theory) be neat and
> perfectly legal for MythTV to integrate RSS feeds/bittorrent downloads
> from legal sources such as those listed here:
>
> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/08/0328214&from=rss

Something to consider is that we are rapidly moving to an IPTV
distribution model (old media seems to be embracing this faster than I
expected), where legal content is being broadcast over the net.
Currently this is happening in a mix of formats, with the big media
leaning towards streaming and closed formats, like Flash, and low-budget
providers using open file formats and BitTorrent for distribution.

MythTV is in a good position to evolve into a front-end for managing
this type of content. (Similarly, if TiVo doesn't evolve in this
direction, it'll probably be dead in 4 or 5 years.) A virtual tuner
could be one way to accomplish it.

One of the pieces that seems to be missing from this model is an open
format for IP distribution of content to consumers for playback on their
TV. The big media players currently operate under the assumption that
their streamed content is being viewed on PC screens, not TV screens.
The closest thing they have to a direct-to-TV channel is making deals
with cable companies to have their shows carried via an "on demand" service.

Who knows, if the major networks knew that if they published their
content in a certain format, they could reach a few million additional
viewers using MythTV, they might be interested in supporting the format.
Even better if the format got picked up by manufacturers of
set-top-boxes, particularly non-cable company boxes (like a Hauppauge
MediaMVP), so that content providers could by-pass the cable companies.

I could see a day a few years from now where installing a tuner card is
only rarely needed for a MythTV setup, much in the same way that using
hardware to interface with phone lines when running PBX software like
Asterisk is rapidly becoming a thing of the past, as analog lines from
the phone company are replaced by VoIP.

If there is a less legally risky way to head down the path toward
building the infrastructure needed for this kind of a distribution
model, it would be worth pursuing as a core MythTV feature.

-Tom

--
Tom Metro
Venture Logic, Newton, MA, USA
"Enterprise solutions through open source."
Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/
_______________________________________________
mythtv-dev mailing list
mythtv-dev@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-dev

1 2  View All