Mailing List Archive

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37:02AM -0400, Jim Albert wrote:
> When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?


maybe we can focus on keeping it maintained... really.

A secure well written project like modperl doesn't need new features and
people destroying its API. It works, and that is good.

There is no reason for it to have an end of lifecycle. It works forever


> I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do
> Apache Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or
> do some just suddenly disappear with no warning given various
> situations that result in the need for EOL?
>
> Jim

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

On 3/18/2021 10:41 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37:02AM -0400, Jim Albert wrote:
>> When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?
>
> maybe we can focus on keeping it maintained... really.
>
> A secure well written project like modperl doesn't need new features and
> people destroying its API. It works, and that is good.
>
> There is no reason for it to have an end of lifecycle. It works forever
>
>
>> I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do
>> Apache Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or
>> do some just suddenly disappear with no warning given various
>> situations that result in the need for EOL?
>>
>> Jim

That would be wonderful, of course. The reality of the mod_perl project,
to my understanding, is that it is made up of volunteers (and a very
sincere thank you to those that have and do volunteer their skills).
Also to my understanding is that the mod_perl project has no industry
backing financial, technical or otherwise, but please correct me if I am
wrong. If those volunteers go away and aren't replaced, I have to think
the project goes away perhaps with temporary assistance of the overall
Apache Software Foundation. I have no idea how ASF project lifecycles
are maintained.

Most software projects have a lifecycle so I'm asking if Apache Software
Foundation projects, including mod_perl, have a structured lifecycle .
If you are using a certain software be it operating system or otherwise,
don't you want to know the EOL up front (in the case of most operating
systems) or have an understanding that when EOL happens for various
software packages, you'll receive adequate warning?  Anyone relying on
mod_perl would or at least should want to understand that. I would hope
it's not a case of well... it's there to use until it breaks.

Jim

If you go back to Sander's original email, he outlines what will
happen if we can't staff the PMC sufficiently to meet Apache's
guidelines. The project woudl go to the attic[1]. There are lots of
projects in the Attic. Some of them have been forked and continue to
have development done on them. At any rate, there will be some notice,
though probably not years of notice, and the source code absolutely
will not 'suddenly disappear'. I'd suggest following the link below
and reading about what the attic is, and what it would mean to get
more context if you're interested in more detail.

Adam

[1] http://attic.apache.org/




Quoting Jim Albert <jim@netrition.com>:

> When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?
> I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do Apache
> Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or do some
> just suddenly disappear with no warning given various situations that
> result in the need for EOL?
>
> Jim

sorry for so much top-posting, but that seems to be the flow in this
forum. I also notice a lack of reply-to header or some other reason that
a reply action is to sender rather than modperl@perl.apache.org... kind
of annoying unless my MX is messing with the forum's headers.

OK... so an Apache Attic announcement is synonymous with EOL. Is that
correct?

To quote from https://attic.apache.org/
" The Apache Attic was created in November 2008
<http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2008/board_minutes_2008_11_19.txt>
to provide process and solutions to make it clear when an Apache project
has reached its end of life."

To paraphrase... "the Apache Attic is not intended for bug fixes or
releases"

I see processes for moving out of the Attic, but without active
development, I assume that is unlikely.

Is that a reasonable summary?

Jim

On 3/18/2021 12:48 PM, adam.prime@utoronto.ca wrote:
> If you go back to Sander's original email, he outlines what will
> happen if we can't staff the PMC sufficiently to meet Apache's
> guidelines. The project woudl go to the attic[1].  There are lots of
> projects in the Attic. Some of them have been forked and continue to
> have development done on them. At any rate, there will be some notice,
> though probably not years of notice, and the source code absolutely
> will not 'suddenly disappear'. I'd suggest following the link below
> and reading about what the attic is, and what it would mean to get
> more context if you're interested in more detail.
>
> Adam
>
> [1] http://attic.apache.org/
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Jim Albert <jim@netrition.com>:
>
>> When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?
>> I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do Apache
>> Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or do some
>> just suddenly disappear with no warning given various situations that
>> result in the need for EOL?
>>
>> Jim
>
>
>

Hi there,

If it broken it doesnt have to be fixed. Our purchase system is running almost 20 years on modperl and there is no reason for is to stop this. We are very happy with it. How about that?

Michel Jansen

> Op 18 mrt. 2021 om 17:48 heeft adam.prime@utoronto.ca het volgende geschreven:
>
> ?If you go back to Sander's original email, he outlines what will happen if we can't staff the PMC sufficiently to meet Apache's guidelines. The project woudl go to the attic[1]. There are lots of projects in the Attic. Some of them have been forked and continue to have development done on them. At any rate, there will be some notice, though probably not years of notice, and the source code absolutely will not 'suddenly disappear'. I'd suggest following the link below and reading about what the attic is, and what it would mean to get more context if you're interested in more detail.
>
> Adam
>
> [1] http://attic.apache.org/
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Jim Albert <jim@netrition.com>:
>
>> When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?
>> I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do Apache
>> Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or do some
>> just suddenly disappear with no warning given various situations that
>> result in the need for EOL?
>>
>> Jim
>
>
>

OK... last email on this topic.
I feel like I'm getting replies like I'm from another planet for asking
prudent questions.
If others want to keep their heads in the sand and get a huge surprise
someday when a Perl update or a new version of Apache they just
installed breaks mod_perl or there's a vulnerability that requires a fix
and there's no one to fix... go ahead and roll  your dice... it's your
party.

If you care at all about your software environment you should want to
have an understanding of when you need  to look for a replacement and
when a product  hits EOL. No, I don't want to look  for a replacement,
but I do want to have an understanding of when to recognize when that is
going to be a necessity given a software package's managed lifecycle.
Perhaps others here are still looking for devices to play their 1970s
8-track tapes?

For anyone who actually does care given Adam's direction to the attic
description at https://attic.apache.org/.
If mod_perl hits The Apache Attic, I consider that fair warning. I don't
think that 100% indicates an absolute final nail, but reasonable fair
warning. I appreciate the responses of those that have lead me to that
information.

Jim

On 3/18/2021 2:14 PM, Michel Jansen wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> If it broken it doesnt have to be fixed. Our purchase system is running almost 20 years on modperl and there is no reason for is to stop this. We are very happy with it. How about that?
>
> Michel Jansen
>
>> Op 18 mrt. 2021 om 17:48 heeft adam.prime@utoronto.ca het volgende geschreven:
>>
>> ?If you go back to Sander's original email, he outlines what will happen if we can't staff the PMC sufficiently to meet Apache's guidelines. The project woudl go to the attic[1]. There are lots of projects in the Attic. Some of them have been forked and continue to have development done on them. At any rate, there will be some notice, though probably not years of notice, and the source code absolutely will not 'suddenly disappear'. I'd suggest following the link below and reading about what the attic is, and what it would mean to get more context if you're interested in more detail.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> [1] http://attic.apache.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Jim Albert <jim@netrition.com>:
>>
>>> When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?
>>> I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do Apache
>>> Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or do some
>>> just suddenly disappear with no warning given various situations that
>>> result in the need for EOL?
>>>
>>> Jim
>>
>>

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 02:46:19PM -0400, Jim Albert wrote:
> OK... last email on this topic.
> I feel like I'm getting replies like I'm from another planet for
> asking prudent questions.
> If others want to keep their heads in the sand and get a huge
> surprise someday when a Perl update or a new version of Apache they
> just installed breaks mod_perl or there's a vulnerability that
> requires a fix and there's no one to fix... go ahead and roll  your
> dice... it's your party.


You are not understanding. We'v been at this for several decades so...
you know we aren't idiots.



>
> If you care at all about your software environment you should want
> to have an understanding of when you need  to look for a replacement
> and when a product  hits EOL.

Umm - yopu have worked for corperate too long and fail to understand
anythoing outside of that context.

There is no EOL

although the internet itslef is quickly becoming irrelevant.


> No, I don't want to look  for a
> replacement, but I do want to have an understanding of when to
> recognize when that is going to be a necessity given a software
> package's managed lifecycle. Perhaps others here are still looking
> for devices to play their 1970s 8-track tapes?
>
> For anyone who actually does care given Adam's direction to the
> attic description at https://attic.apache.org/.
> If mod_perl hits The Apache Attic, I consider that fair warning. I
> don't think that 100% indicates an absolute final nail, but
> reasonable fair warning. I appreciate the responses of those that
> have lead me to that information.
>
> Jim
>
> On 3/18/2021 2:14 PM, Michel Jansen wrote:
> >Hi there,
> >
> >If it broken it doesnt have to be fixed. Our purchase system is running almost 20 years on modperl and there is no reason for is to stop this. We are very happy with it. How about that?
> >
> >Michel Jansen
> >
> >>Op 18 mrt. 2021 om 17:48 heeft adam.prime@utoronto.ca het volgende geschreven:
> >>
> >>?If you go back to Sander's original email, he outlines what will happen if we can't staff the PMC sufficiently to meet Apache's guidelines. The project woudl go to the attic[1]. There are lots of projects in the Attic. Some of them have been forked and continue to have development done on them. At any rate, there will be some notice, though probably not years of notice, and the source code absolutely will not 'suddenly disappear'. I'd suggest following the link below and reading about what the attic is, and what it would mean to get more context if you're interested in more detail.
> >>
> >>Adam
> >>
> >>[1] http://attic.apache.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Quoting Jim Albert <jim@netrition.com>:
> >>
> >>>When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?
> >>>I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do Apache
> >>>Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or do some
> >>>just suddenly disappear with no warning given various situations that
> >>>result in the need for EOL?
> >>>
> >>>Jim
> >>
> >>
>
>

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 02:46:19PM -0400, Jim Albert wrote:
> OK... last email on this topic.
> I feel like I'm getting replies like I'm from another planet for
> asking prudent questions.
> If others want to keep their heads in the sand and get a huge
> surprise someday when a Perl update or a new version of Apache they
> just installed breaks mod_perl or there's a vulnerability that
> requires a fix and there's no one to fix... go ahead and roll  your
> dice... it's your party.


You are not understanding. We've been at this for several decades so...
you know we aren't idiots.



>
> If you care at all about your software environment you should want
> to have an understanding of when you need  to look for a replacement
> and when a product  hits EOL.

Um - you have worked for cooperate too long and fail to understand
anything outside of that context.

There is no EOL

Although the internet itself is quickly becoming irrelevant.

Free Software is allowed to work effectively as long as someone finds it
useful. mod_perl actually, already has issues compiling with the latest
apache. That is something that can be looked at. Nothing forces you to
use Apache 2.4 or whatever they are up to.

BTW - Cobol is still around and I still your my Princess AT&T Bell
phone. And my refrigerator is likely older than you. I ride my trek
2000 bicycle. Not everything has build in obsolescence.

It modperl stops working, for some reason, I will not be able to
reproduce the thousands of messges and web pages on my system that is
build about it. So I didn't depend on fly by night software.




> No, I don't want to look  for a
> replacement, but I do want to have an understanding of when to
> recognize when that is going to be a necessity given a software
> package's managed lifecycle. Perhaps others here are still looking
> for devices to play their 1970s 8-track tapes?
>
> For anyone who actually does care given Adam's direction to the
> attic description at https://attic.apache.org/.
> If mod_perl hits The Apache Attic, I consider that fair warning. I
> don't think that 100% indicates an absolute final nail, but
> reasonable fair warning. I appreciate the responses of those that
> have lead me to that information.
>
> Jim
>
> On 3/18/2021 2:14 PM, Michel Jansen wrote:
> >Hi there,
> >
> >If it broken it doesnt have to be fixed. Our purchase system is running almost 20 years on modperl and there is no reason for is to stop this. We are very happy with it. How about that?
> >
> >Michel Jansen
> >
> >>Op 18 mrt. 2021 om 17:48 heeft adam.prime@utoronto.ca het volgende geschreven:
> >>
> >>?If you go back to Sander's original email, he outlines what will happen if we can't staff the PMC sufficiently to meet Apache's guidelines. The project woudl go to the attic[1]. There are lots of projects in the Attic. Some of them have been forked and continue to have development done on them. At any rate, there will be some notice, though probably not years of notice, and the source code absolutely will not 'suddenly disappear'. I'd suggest following the link below and reading about what the attic is, and what it would mean to get more context if you're interested in more detail.
> >>
> >>Adam
> >>
> >>[1] http://attic.apache.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Quoting Jim Albert <jim@netrition.com>:
> >>
> >>>When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?
> >>>I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do Apache
> >>>Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or do some
> >>>just suddenly disappear with no warning given various situations that
> >>>result in the need for EOL?
> >>>
> >>>Jim
> >>
> >>
>
>

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

?Hi there,

If it aint broken it doesnt have to be fixed. Our purchase system is running almost 20 years on modperl and there is no reason for is to stop this. We are very happy with it. How about that?

Michel Jansen

> Op 18 mrt. 2021 om 17:48 heeft adam.prime@utoronto.ca het volgende geschreven:
>
> ?If you go back to Sander's original email, he outlines what will happen if we can't staff the PMC sufficiently to meet Apache's guidelines. The project woudl go to the attic[1]. There are lots of projects in the Attic. Some of them have been forked and continue to have development done on them. At any rate, there will be some notice, though probably not years of notice, and the source code absolutely will not 'suddenly disappear'. I'd suggest following the link below and reading about what the attic is, and what it would mean to get more context if you're interested in more detail.
>
> Adam
>
> [1] http://attic.apache.org/
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Jim Albert <jim@netrition.com>:
>
>> When mod_perl does come to an end what would an End of Life look like?
>> I'm told mod_perl is an Apache Software Foundation project. Do Apache
>> Software Foundation projects have a structured life cycle or do some
>> just suddenly disappear with no warning given various situations that
>> result in the need for