Mailing List Archive

On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 16:35 -0500, Stas Bekman wrote:
> > * faq
> >
> > this is such a web thing for both developers and project managers and
> > directors. couldn't we write a perl program that scans the total mail on
> > the mailing list extract the 50 most used words. seriously, it would be
> > great to have someone to write a faq - someone with the time to do it.

The documentation that exists now mostly started as a FAQ that Stas kept
adding to. I'm not sure it's possible to address all of mod_perl in a
FAQ format. It would either be redundant, or just a set of links to the
other docs. Maybe I'm just too close to the material though. If
someone else has an idea for how to do a useful FAQ, show us.

Regarding the idea of a "why upgrade" doc, it might be good to polish up
one of the mp2 presentations that Stas, Geoff, or Phillipe have done and
see if perl.com will run it on the day of the final release.

- Perrin


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Stas Bekman wrote:
> [another split, let's keep PR-how thread focused on one thing]

answering only to some ideas. Hoping that others will followup on the rest
(fingers ache here, need to write some perl code and give my fingers a rest).

> allan juul wrote:
>
> > * bullet list of perhaps 5 major reasons to upgrade
> >
> > can someone tell joe public in very few sentences what i gain by
> > upgrading to mod_perl 2?

I guess there is more than 5, but it's a good idea. Any takers?

> > * timing - is 3-4 weeks a good date or does the news drown in
> > forgetfulness (xmas and new years hollidays). maybe it's even better to
> > wait to january ?
> >
> > proper PR is probaly always well-planned. to me it looks like a very bad
> > idea to release in the middle of xmas fever (altought it's a very nice
> > christmas gift of course). it should also co-incide with the above
> > suggest of a possible banner of course

we aren't really trying to sell anything. And in any case 2.0 will most
likely be released after XMAS. We still have some unfinished work to do,
besides the unexpected bug reports.

> > * lastly, don't know if this has been discused before, i really think
> > that we should appoint 1-2 people responsible for the pr of this
> > software. [people who can afford the time envolved]

+1

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On Monday 13 December 2004 03:30 pm, Stas Bekman wrote:
> I guess there is more than 5, but it's a good idea. Any takers?

If we can bring out the points here in a discussion, I'd be willing to
compile/format them nicely. If we could just all chip in the things we each
see as most important, and would like to focus on.

--
Jayce^

On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 15:44 -0700, Jayce^ wrote:
> If we can bring out the points here in a discussion, I'd be willing to
> compile/format them nicely.

How about just collecting the slides that Stas, Phillipe, and Geoff have
used when introducing mp2 at conferences, and trying to summarize the
juiciest bits from them?

- Perrin


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Perrin Harkins wrote:
> On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 15:44 -0700, Jayce^ wrote:
>
>>If we can bring out the points here in a discussion, I'd be willing to
>>compile/format them nicely.
>
>
> How about just collecting the slides that Stas, Phillipe, and Geoff have
> used when introducing mp2 at conferences, and trying to summarize the
> juiciest bits from them?

That's probably the best candidate, since it was already a tight summary
(though it's out of date - 1.5 years old)
http://stason.org/talks/perlcon2003/presentation/mod_perl-2.0-presentation-slides.pdf.gz

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Jayce^ wrote:
> On Monday 13 December 2004 03:30 pm, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>I guess there is more than 5, but it's a good idea. Any takers?
>
>
> If we can bring out the points here in a discussion, I'd be willing to
> compile/format them nicely. If we could just all chip in the things we each
> see as most important, and would like to focus on.

Jayce^++, should we better do it on the users list, so others can benefit
from the discussion? so we kill two birds in one shot. of course it may
generate some extra noise. So it's up to you Jayce^ to decide whether you
want to sum more or less :)


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On Monday 13 December 2004 03:59 pm, Stas Bekman wrote:
> Jayce^++, should we better do it on the users list, so others can benefit
> from the discussion? so we kill two birds in one shot. of course it may
> generate some extra noise. So it's up to you Jayce^ to decide whether you
> want to sum more or less :)

I'm willing to do either, I just thought this channel might be better since it
really is an advocacy issue.

--
Jayce^

Jayce^ wrote:
> On Monday 13 December 2004 03:59 pm, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>Jayce^++, should we better do it on the users list, so others can benefit
>>from the discussion? so we kill two birds in one shot. of course it may
>>generate some extra noise. So it's up to you Jayce^ to decide whether you
>>want to sum more or less :)
>
>
> I'm willing to do either, I just thought this channel might be better since it
> really is an advocacy issue.

But at the same time, many users on the modperl list wonder why should
they move to mp2. That's why I thought to run it there. It'll also give
you a chance to here why it's not a good idea to move to mp2, which is
just as important for PR.



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Perrin Harkins wrote:

> On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 16:35 -0500, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>> > * faq
>> >
>> > this is such a web thing for both developers and project managers and
>> > directors. couldn't we write a perl program that scans the total mail on
>> > the mailing list extract the 50 most used words. seriously, it would be
>> > great to have someone to write a faq - someone with the time to do it.
>
>
> The documentation that exists now mostly started as a FAQ that Stas kept
> adding to. I'm not sure it's possible to address all of mod_perl in a
> FAQ format. It would either be redundant, or just a set of links to the
> other docs. Maybe I'm just too close to the material though. If
> someone else has an idea for how to do a useful FAQ, show us.


ok, i didn't know the mod_perl doc history. i guess a faq always is
redundant (perhaps it even _should_ be).

perl itself has one of course [1]
oh, and apache too [2]




what i had in mind was a very very quick faq of perhaps 10 questions,
perhaps only 5 or 2. the important thing is that it is concise and only
updated when really needed (ie when people post the same question over
and over again - which btw is also a sort of redundancy ;) )
so let us just start with questions that _really_ are mod_perl faq's.
here's one that spring to mind

1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one
result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ?



[1] http://perl.com/pub/q/FAQs
[2] http://httpd.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html


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On Monday 13 December 2004 04:07 pm, Stas Bekman wrote:
> But at the same time, many users on the modperl list wonder why should
> they move to mp2. That's why I thought to run it there. It'll also give
> you a chance to here why it's not a good idea to move to mp2, which is
> just as important for PR.

Allright, good enough argument for me, I'll start a thread in there.

--
Jayce^

On Tue, 2004-12-14 at 00:08 +0100, allan juul wrote:
> here's one that spring to mind
>
> 1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one
> result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ?

http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/porting.html#Sometimes_it_Works__Sometimes_it_Doesn_t

But maybe it is useful to have a brief collection of questions, even if
the answers are just URLs like this.

- Perrin


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Stas Bekman wrote:

> Jayce^ wrote:
>
>> On Monday 13 December 2004 03:59 pm, Stas Bekman wrote:
>>
>>> Jayce^++, should we better do it on the users list, so others can
>>> benefit
>>> from the discussion? so we kill two birds in one shot. of course it may
>>> generate some extra noise. So it's up to you Jayce^ to decide whether
>>> you
>>> want to sum more or less :)
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm willing to do either, I just thought this channel might be better
>> since it really is an advocacy issue.
>
>
> But at the same time, many users on the modperl list wonder why should
> they move to mp2. That's why I thought to run it there. It'll also give
> you a chance to here why it's not a good idea to move to mp2, which is
> just as important for PR.
>
>
>

hi again,


i still think it's important that the why/why not "bullet list(s)"
should be relatively short.

there are probably more than 5 good reasons to choose either to upgrade
or not, but if we need 15+ points/bullets to explain to a
"non-converted" why he/she should upgrade i personally think the
"non-converted" will loose interest.

if we think this list as a list on perl.apache.org i imagine something
in the vein of this would be cool [just a quick thought though]:

HEADER: here are 5 major reasons why you should upgrade to mod_perl2

* reason1
* reason2
* reason3
* reason4
* reason5

TEXT: and click here to view 50 reasons more why you should upgrade

TEXT: and click here to view 500 reasons more why you should be using
mod_perl in the first place at all


HEADER: Scared of upgrading ?
TEXT: 5 major reasons why you shouldn't upgrade


./allan





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Perrin Harkins wrote:

> On Tue, 2004-12-14 at 00:08 +0100, allan juul wrote:
>
>>here's one that spring to mind
>>
>>1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one
>>result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ?
>
>
> http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/porting.html#Sometimes_it_Works__Sometimes_it_Doesn_t
>
> But maybe it is useful to have a brief collection of questions, even if
> the answers are just URLs like this.

yes i think so. but i also know that i'm at a completly different
mod_perl stage than yourself. but i think a FAQ wil help both a beginner
and a list-replier and a even doc writer.

i'm just guessing that people like yourself and stas who answers a lot
of questions sometimes would like to make this reply instead of poing to
an URL in the documentation:

- have you read the FAQ?

or

- thats a FAQ :URL/TO/FAQ


the FAQ should then reply in two sentences or less: "the reason for that
behaviour is this blah blah ... click here to read more URL/TO/GUIDE"


good night ;)
./allan

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allan juul wrote:
> Perrin Harkins wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 16:35 -0500, Stas Bekman wrote:
>>
>>> > * faq
>>> >
>>> > this is such a web thing for both developers and project managers and
>>> > directors. couldn't we write a perl program that scans the total
>>> mail on
>>> > the mailing list extract the 50 most used words. seriously, it
>>> would be
>>> > great to have someone to write a faq - someone with the time to do it.
>>
>>
>>
>> The documentation that exists now mostly started as a FAQ that Stas kept
>> adding to. I'm not sure it's possible to address all of mod_perl in a
>> FAQ format. It would either be redundant, or just a set of links to the
>> other docs. Maybe I'm just too close to the material though. If
>> someone else has an idea for how to do a useful FAQ, show us.
>
>
>
> ok, i didn't know the mod_perl doc history. i guess a faq always is
> redundant (perhaps it even _should_ be).
>
> perl itself has one of course [1]
> oh, and apache too [2]
>
>
>
>
> what i had in mind was a very very quick faq of perhaps 10 questions,
> perhaps only 5 or 2. the important thing is that it is concise and only
> updated when really needed (ie when people post the same question over
> and over again - which btw is also a sort of redundancy ;) )
> so let us just start with questions that _really_ are mod_perl faq's.
> here's one that spring to mind

But we have exactly that already: http://perl.apache.org/start/index.html

> 1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one
> result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ?
>
>
>
> [1] http://perl.com/pub/q/FAQs
> [2] http://httpd.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html
>
>
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allan juul wrote:
> Perrin Harkins wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2004-12-14 at 00:08 +0100, allan juul wrote:
>>
>>> here's one that spring to mind
>>>
>>> 1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get
>>> one result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is
>>> that ?
>>
>>
>>
>> http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/porting.html#Sometimes_it_Works__Sometimes_it_Doesn_t
>>
>>
>> But maybe it is useful to have a brief collection of questions, even if
>> the answers are just URLs like this.
>
>
> yes i think so. but i also know that i'm at a completly different
> mod_perl stage than yourself. but i think a FAQ wil help both a beginner
> and a list-replier and a even doc writer.
>
> i'm just guessing that people like yourself and stas who answers a lot
> of questions sometimes would like to make this reply instead of poing to
> an URL in the documentation:

Not really. I prefer to find an exact URL myself and point users to it.
pointing to a FAQ doesn't ensure that they will find the right section.

> - have you read the FAQ?
>
> or
>
> - thats a FAQ :URL/TO/FAQ
>
>
> the FAQ should then reply in two sentences or less: "the reason for that
> behaviour is this blah blah ... click here to read more URL/TO/GUIDE"

-1, it's already hard to maintain the vast amount of information. Trying
to keep in sync yet another layer of indirection is an overkill. Instead
an effort should be put at improving the existing information. And the
search engine should be useful at finding it.

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>>>>> "Stas" == Stas Bekman <stas@stason.org> writes:

Stas> [another split, let's keep PR-how thread focused on one thing]

Of course, there can be no advocacy *for* MP2 until this
Apache::Resource thing is resolved. And I mean in a way that everyone
else resolves it in the CPAN. You don't get special favors in the
mod_perl group.

In fact, I'll argue *against* MP2 in any public forum until this
resolved.

Seriously. Get this fixed, before I can recommend this to others.

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Quoting Stas Bekman <stas@stason.org>:

> > the FAQ should then reply in two sentences or less: "the reason for that
> > behaviour is this blah blah ... click here to read more URL/TO/GUIDE"
>
> -1, it's already hard to maintain the vast amount of information. Trying
> to keep in sync yet another layer of indirection is an overkill. Instead
> an effort should be put at improving the existing information. And the
> search engine should be useful at finding it.

i can see it's another layer but it is perhaps also fewer mails in your inbox :)
isn't it very normal for the people who ask questions to go to a FAQ just
before they send their question ?

about searching. i also like the FAQ to be in the downloadble pdf - there's no
quality search engine in my pdf reader. im sitting in the train having printed
the whole documentaion and ask myself "does apache require a restart if i'm
doing a change in this bit of code".

also the very fact that you bring up the "search" step, cries for FAQ.
a user have to type a searchword, enter submit, and read through 70 Results for
[cache] for example.


./a


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allan juul wrote:
> Quoting Stas Bekman <stas@stason.org>:
>
>
>>>the FAQ should then reply in two sentences or less: "the reason for that
>>>behaviour is this blah blah ... click here to read more URL/TO/GUIDE"
>>
>>-1, it's already hard to maintain the vast amount of information. Trying
>>to keep in sync yet another layer of indirection is an overkill. Instead
>>an effort should be put at improving the existing information. And the
>>search engine should be useful at finding it.
>
>
> i can see it's another layer but it is perhaps also fewer mails in your inbox :)
> isn't it very normal for the people who ask questions to go to a FAQ just
> before they send their question ?

Most of the things in the docs, at least mod_perl 1.0 guide are FAQ. It
was originally written based on frequently asked questions on the list.

> about searching. i also like the FAQ to be in the downloadble pdf - there's no
> quality search engine in my pdf reader. im sitting in the train having printed
> the whole documentaion and ask myself "does apache require a restart if i'm
> doing a change in this bit of code".

If you agree that the docs are already a FAQ, you have the pdf version of
all docs.

> also the very fact that you bring up the "search" step, cries for FAQ.
> a user have to type a searchword, enter submit, and read through 70 Results for
> [cache] for example.

Allan, may I suggest that may be you don't realize how much information
there is in our docs and how hard it's going to be to decide what should
be in the FAQ and what not?

If you really want to help with docs, the best thing you can do now is
start porting mod_perl 1 docs to mod_perl 2 docs, since that's the biggest
hole now. mod_perl 1 is going to phase out, and 99.9% of the questions in
the next year are going to be about mp2. We can't write a FAQ for that
since things are still not there. But filling the gaps in the normal docs
is what's the most important thing at the moment, if you ask me.

--
__________________________________________________________________
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http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
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Quoting Stas Bekman <stas@stason.org>:

> Most of the things in the docs, at least mod_perl 1.0 guide are FAQ. It
> was originally written based on frequently asked questions on the list.

yes, i understand that now. in a nutshell i see a FAQ as a short full stop page
where one can quickly view commonly asked questions. let's take perl itself as
an example. sometimes i forget how to do a directly search & replace in a file
(in old perls you had to create tmp files and unlink them afterwards). this is
not something i do very often so i tend to forget the syntax. but i also know
that this would be a pretty common thing for people to do hence i look first in
the perl FAQ.

the infamous "Sometimes it Works, Sometimes it Doesn't" problem. i personally
consider it a FAQ. if you were a mod_perl beginner but knew about this problem
already (but couldn't remember how to solve it) how would you go about ?

i see three approaches

1) look on perl.apache.org (how to find this answer is not that easy or is it ?
what would you search for - how would you hyperlinnk-navigate ?)
2) ask the question on the mailing list
3) search elsewhere like google.com. horror!



> Allan, may I suggest that may be you don't realize how much information
> there is in our docs and how hard it's going to be to decide what should
> be in the FAQ and what not?

i certainly know there's a lot of information. i even think you know i know :)


would you go along if i (if i can fine the time) took the task of simply
compiling a small list a bit like the one i sent as an example in an earlier
mail, the faq answers would then point to the real doc ?

> If you really want to help with docs, the best thing you can do now is
> start porting mod_perl 1 docs to mod_perl 2 docs, since that's the biggest
> hole now. mod_perl 1 is going to phase out, and 99.9% of the questions in
> the next year are going to be about mp2. We can't write a FAQ for that
> since things are still not there. But filling the gaps in the normal docs
> is what's the most important thing at the moment, if you ask me.


i don't think a FAQ should be mod_perl2 og mod_perl1 specific. but i agree that
getting the actual documentation right is much more important than a FAQ. but
unfortuantely , im not in a position to help on that

./allan

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allan juul wrote:
> Quoting Stas Bekman <stas@stason.org>:
>
>
>>Most of the things in the docs, at least mod_perl 1.0 guide are FAQ. It
>>was originally written based on frequently asked questions on the list.
>
>
> yes, i understand that now. in a nutshell i see a FAQ as a short full stop page
> where one can quickly view commonly asked questions. let's take perl itself as
> an example. sometimes i forget how to do a directly search & replace in a file
> (in old perls you had to create tmp files and unlink them afterwards). this is
> not something i do very often so i tend to forget the syntax. but i also know
> that this would be a pretty common thing for people to do hence i look first in
> the perl FAQ.
>
> the infamous "Sometimes it Works, Sometimes it Doesn't" problem. i personally
> consider it a FAQ. if you were a mod_perl beginner but knew about this problem
> already (but couldn't remember how to solve it) how would you go about ?
>
> i see three approaches
>
> 1) look on perl.apache.org (how to find this answer is not that easy or is it ?
> what would you search for - how would you hyperlinnk-navigate ?)
> 2) ask the question on the mailing list
> 3) search elsewhere like google.com. horror!

Right, I've posted a link to
http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/frequent.html
in the other post.

>>Allan, may I suggest that may be you don't realize how much information
>>there is in our docs and how hard it's going to be to decide what should
>>be in the FAQ and what not?
>
>
> i certainly know there's a lot of information. i even think you know i know :)

I do :)

> would you go along if i (if i can fine the time) took the task of simply
> compiling a small list a bit like the one i sent as an example in an earlier
> mail, the faq answers would then point to the real doc ?

sure, but in pod of course :) and I'd suggest to start with mp1 specific
ones, since mp2 docs aren't there yet.

>>If you really want to help with docs, the best thing you can do now is
>>start porting mod_perl 1 docs to mod_perl 2 docs, since that's the biggest
>>hole now. mod_perl 1 is going to phase out, and 99.9% of the questions in
>>the next year are going to be about mp2. We can't write a FAQ for that
>>since things are still not there. But filling the gaps in the normal docs
>>is what's the most important thing at the moment, if you ask me.
>
>
>
> i don't think a FAQ should be mod_perl2 og mod_perl1 specific. but i agree that
> getting the actual documentation right is much more important than a FAQ. but
> unfortuantely , im not in a position to help on that

No problem.


--
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