Mailing List Archive

Andrew Gallagher wrote:

>
> > On 14 May 2020, at 23:42, Stefan Claas <sac@300baud.de> wrote:
> >
> > When you work in compliance mode it should be IHMO possible that
> > people wishing to communicate with you (from foreign countries) and
> > may have a different opinion about privacy, GnuPG should accept
> > such public keys, without using extra parameters and that you can
> > easily add them to your key ring, with a simple label, thus not
> > revealing the identity of them, in case your computer or smartphone
> > gets later compromised or is searched at an airport etc.
>
> So your device is compromised by the feds and you’re worried about
> your gpg keyring leaking contact information, but not your inbox or
> your address book? And how does your encryption system work if it
> doesn’t maintain a mapping between email IDs and keys? I’m not
> convinced this threat model has been fully thought through.

Good question!

First of all I do not keep an address book on my computer
nor on my smartphone and I use not only simple smpts channels.

Regarding the mapping of email IDs and keys. When I use labels
for my keys, in my keyring, it contains only simple stuff like a
nickname for example, because the peoples email addresses I know
also without using GnuPG, hence I use command line mode and no
common plug-ins. I do not say that people should follow
this procedure, but like I previously said GnuPG should allow
such an option. I am also used to use other communication
channels, beside standard smpts, where this works too.

I don't know if you, for example, knows RSA public key encryption
before PGP was invented. There was no such things like key-IDs
email mappings etc. and people lived with it, while using email.

If you check out GitHub, GitLab etc. for public key encryption
software you will rarely find tools, if any, which use the same
email, key-ID mapping approach GnuPG uses. and people do not
complain about it.

And last but not least, GnuPG is a very flexible tool with
many many command line parameters, so why not allow this option
too for users, wishing to use UID-less public keys?

I see no harm in it, only an enrichment in it's feature set.

Regards
Stefan

--
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https://keybase.io/stefan_claas


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Stefan Claas wrote:

> MFPA wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > Hi
> >
> >
> > On Thursday 14 May 2020 at 11:41:00 PM, in
> > <mid:20200515004100.00005d5c.sac@300baud.de>, Stefan Claas wrote:-
> >
> >
> >
> > > GnuPG should accept
> > > such public keys,
> > > without using extra parameters and that you can
> > > easily add them to your
> > > key ring, with a simple label, thus not revealing the
> > > identity of them,
> > > in case your computer or smartphone gets later
> > > compromised or is
> > > searched at an airport etc.
> >
> > Does that mean the "simple label" doesn't identify whose key it is?
> > Or have I misunderstood?
>
> It simply says that you can assign to such a label whatever you like,
> say a nickname or whatever.

Sorry, and this label is assigned to public keys of course.

Regards
Stefan

--
Signal (Desktop) +4915172173279
https://keybase.io/stefan_claas


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> When you work in compliance mode it should be IHMO possible that people
> wishing to communicate with you (from foreign countries) and may have a
> different opinion about privacy,

Sure. And if they're important enough for me to justify breaking
compliance, I am perfectly capable of removing the "rfc4880" flag from
my gpg.conf file.

There is no excuse for willfully breaking RFC4880 compliance *when the
user has explicitly requested strict compliance*.

Robert J. Hansen wrote:

> > When you work in compliance mode it should be IHMO possible that
> > people wishing to communicate with you (from foreign countries) and
> > may have a different opinion about privacy,
>
> Sure. And if they're important enough for me to justify breaking
> compliance, I am perfectly capable of removing the "rfc4880" flag from
> my gpg.conf file.
>
> There is no excuse for willfully breaking RFC4880 compliance *when the
> user has explicitly requested strict compliance*.

Certainly there are many reasons to extend the standard, which is not
set in stone and which is not a politically adopted law, for meaningful
things.

Of course, a program author has the right to design his program as he
sees fit, but please don't be surprised if far-sighted pioneers expand
this standard to meet the needs of a user base who would also like to
use this standard.

Regards
Stefan



--
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https://keybase.io/stefan_claas


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> Certainly there are many reasons to extend the standard, which is not
> set in stone and which is not a politically adopted law, for meaningful
> things.

Yes. If you want to talk about changing the standard please bring it up
to the proper mailing list. Here is not the place for it. If you can
persuade people to change the standard I'll be wildly in favor of GnuPG
implementing the standard.

> Of course, a program author has the right to design his program as he
> sees fit, but please don't be surprised if far-sighted pioneers expand
> this standard to meet the needs of a user base who would also like to
> use this standard.

This is irrelevant.

We're talking about what GnuPG should do if someone specifies strict RFC
conformance. The answer to that question is simple: it should strictly
conform to the RFC and treat UID-free certificates as the malformed
entities they are.

MFPA wrote:

[...]

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> iQ8RBAEWCg65FiEElgyGKNWS/4zei7C/4OLe4dbI7voFAl692adfFIAAAAAALgAo
[...]

> RjfdBwsdZJrUrgtu7YTLAf0/v9mZZBAXfvO8CgNySZfWWZ5IP0BvHLgkUXI0r7Qt
> kuQMuu7LJiMJFrPQKIL1cQ==
> =XcGg
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Hi,

out of curiosity, you signed the reply with two sub keys, but
what makes the signature so large, the hash algo used? I must
admit I have never seen such a large signature before.

And slightly OT, when not counting the two last short lines
in the signature, 378 NaClbox public keys would fit in in
the signature! :-)

Regards
Stefan


--
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https://keybase.io/stefan_claas


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Stefan Claas wrote:

> MFPA wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > iQ8RBAEWCg65FiEElgyGKNWS/4zei7C/4OLe4dbI7voFAl692adfFIAAAAAALgAo
> [...]
>
> > RjfdBwsdZJrUrgtu7YTLAf0/v9mZZBAXfvO8CgNySZfWWZ5IP0BvHLgkUXI0r7Qt
> > kuQMuu7LJiMJFrPQKIL1cQ==
> > =XcGg
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> Hi,
>
> out of curiosity, you signed the reply with two sub keys, but
> what makes the signature so large, the hash algo used? I must
> admit I have never seen such a large signature before.
>
> And slightly OT, when not counting the two last short lines
> in the signature, 378 NaClbox public keys would fit in in
> the signature! :-)

Correction, a NaClbox key is 32 bytes but in an ASCII representation
64 ASCII chars long in the key ring, so it would 'only' be 189 public
keys.

Regards
Stefan



--
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https://keybase.io/stefan_claas


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On 2020-05-16 at 22:49 +0200, Stefan Claas wrote:
> out of curiosity, you signed the reply with two sub keys, but
> what makes the signature so large, the hash algo used? I must
> admit I have never seen such a large signature before.

It is quite large, indeed. This Radix 64 block of 12375 bytes contains
two signatures, of 3857 and 5225 bytes respectively. The first one EdDSA
(22) and the second a normal RSA one.

In both cases, most of the signature space is taken by a hashed
subpacket of type 38. This value is not assigned, but looking at
https://git.gnupg.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=gnupg.git;a=blob;f=common/openpgpdefs.h#l123
it is used to store the whole key used.


Cheers


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?ngel wrote:

> On 2020-05-16 at 22:49 +0200, Stefan Claas wrote:
> > out of curiosity, you signed the reply with two sub keys, but
> > what makes the signature so large, the hash algo used? I must
> > admit I have never seen such a large signature before.
>
> It is quite large, indeed. This Radix 64 block of 12375 bytes contains
> two signatures, of 3857 and 5225 bytes respectively. The first one
> EdDSA (22) and the second a normal RSA one.
>
> In both cases, most of the signature space is taken by a hashed
> subpacket of type 38. This value is not assigned, but looking at
> https://git.gnupg.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=gnupg.git;a=blob;f=common/openpgpdefs.h#l123
> it is used to store the whole key used.

Interesting, thanks for the explanation!

Regards
Stefan

--
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https://keybase.io/stefan_claas


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Thanks to all the people that chimed in on my question. I was trying to
get an idea how they compared. It was (for me) even more confusing with
the 25519 choices as I didn't know the size of those keys until someone
explained them better.

On 5/11/2020 6:46 PM, Pete Stephenson via Gnupg-users wrote:
> On Mon, May 11, 2020, at 5:15 PM, Mark wrote:
>> I'm trying to understand the differences in strength between an RSA key
>> and an elliptical one such ed25519 with cv25519. I know with RSA it is
>> pretty easy to "gauge" the strength 1024 vs 2048 vs 4096. 
>>
>> I could not really find anything to say how strong these elliptical keys
>> are and how they compare to RSA ones. 
> Good question! Broadly, and with several assumptions, elliptic curves have the same security level as symmetric (e.g., AES) keys that are half the elliptic key's length. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_size and the references therein as a starting point.
>
> For example, a 256 bit elliptic curve key has a similar strength to a symmetric key of 128 bits.
>
> Due to various reasons, not all ECC keys are powers of 2 in length. For example, NIST P-521 is 521 bits long rather than 512 bits, and has equivalent security to a 256 bit symmetric key.
>
> Cheers!
> -Pete
>

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On Sun, 17 May 2020 04:33, Ángel said:

> In both cases, most of the signature space is taken by a hashed
> subpacket of type 38. This value is not assigned, but looking at

You are using --include-key-block; this is intended to be used by MUAs
to send the encryption key along with a signature to allow for immediate
encrypted reply. This is similar to what has been done in S/MIME for
decades and a mitigation to the comedown of the keyservers.

MUAs may decide not to use this on mailing lists - if short mails are
important. Or use it only with ECC keys.


Salam-Shalom,

Werner

--
Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi


On Monday 18 May 2020 at 7:33:47 AM, in
<mid:875zct92gk.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de>, Werner Koch via
Gnupg-users wrote:-


> You are using --include-key-block; this is intended
> to be used by MUAs
> to send the encryption key along with a signature to
> allow for immediate
> encrypted reply.

I forgot I had added that to my gpg.conf file.

If the recipient has --auto-key-import set, they auto-import my key
after signature verification. But my choice to not include my email
address in my UID means they would not easily locate my key to send me
an encrypted reply.


> Or use it only with ECC keys.

Does (or will) --include-key-block have an argument that can be set to
tell it to only include ECC keyblocks, or to set a maximum keyblock
size?


- --
Best regards

MFPA <mailto:2017-r3sgs86x8e-lists-groups@riseup.net>

Volvo, Video, Velcro. (I came, I saw, I stuck around.)
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi


On Saturday 16 May 2020 at 9:49:55 PM, in
<mid:20200516224955.00005826.sac@300baud.de>, Stefan Claas wrote:-


> out of curiosity, you signed the reply with two sub
> keys,

The RSA signature is for the benefit of recipients who can't handle
ECC keys/signatures. Probably not needed anymore.



> the hash algo
> used?

I'm hopefully using SHA512.

- --
Best regards

MFPA <mailto:2017-r3sgs86x8e-lists-groups@riseup.net>

Ballerinas are always on their toes. We need taller ballerinas!
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


_______________________________________________
Gnupg-users mailing list
Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

Interestingly enough, this breaks the Thunderbird/Protonmail integration, so your message just shows up as the raw PGP blob that Protonmail is pushing to the Protonmail client. It returns the error


" Decryption error
Decryption of this message's encrypted content failed.

openpgp: unsupported feature: nested signatures
"


-Ryan McGinnis
http://www.bigstormpicture.com
Sent via ProtonMail

??????? Original Message ???????
On Wednesday, May 20, 2020 12:18 PM, MFPA via Gnupg-users <gnupg-users@gnupg.org> wrote:

> Hi
>

> On Saturday 16 May 2020 at 9:49:55 PM, in
> mid:20200516224955.00005826.sac@300baud.de, Stefan Claas wrote:-
>

> > out of curiosity, you signed the reply with two sub
> > keys,
>

> The RSA signature is for the benefit of recipients who can't handle
> ECC keys/signatures. Probably not needed anymore.
>

> > the hash algo
> > used?
>

> I'm hopefully using SHA512.
>

> ------------------------------
>

> Best regards
>

> MFPA mailto:2017-r3sgs86x8e-lists-groups@riseup.net
>

> Ballerinas are always on their toes. We need taller ballerinas!

On Wed, 20 May 2020 18:06, MFPA said:

> Does (or will) --include-key-block have an argument that can be set to
> tell it to only include ECC keyblocks, or to set a maximum keyblock

No, it is better to let the caller (ee.g. the MUA) pass this option than
to have it in a config file. (I initially used this too in my gpg.conf
with the result that all my Git commits carried my key, which is
useless).



Salam-Shalom,

Werner

--
Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi


On Friday 22 May 2020 at 9:52:35 AM, in
<mid:875zco4ai4.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de>, Werner Koch wrote:-



> No, it is better to let the caller (ee.g. the MUA)
> pass this option

How would it be used only with ECC keys? The MUA doesn't know the
flavour of key/subkey.

- --
Best regards

MFPA <mailto:2017-r3sgs86x8e-lists-groups@riseup.net>

There is no snooze button for a cat that wants breakfast
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


_______________________________________________
Gnupg-users mailing list
Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

On Fri, 22 May 2020 15:08, MFPA said:

> How would it be used only with ECC keys? The MUA doesn't know the
> flavour of key/subkey.

For sure the MUA knows your own key.


Salam-Shalom,

Werner

--
Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi


> For sure the MUA knows your own key.

No. The MUA just passes the email address to GnuPG and GnuPG selects
the key.


- --
Best regards

MFPA <mailto:2017-r3sgs86x8e-lists-groups@riseup.net>

Eat well, stay fit - Die anyway
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