Mailing List Archive

NAS and replacing with larger drives
Howdy,

I've pretty much reached a limit on my backups.  I'm up to a 16TB hard
drive for one and even that won't last long.  Larger drives are much
more costly.  A must have NAS is quickly approaching.  I've been
searching around and find some things confusing.  I'm hoping someone can
clear up that confusion.  I'm also debating what path to travel down. 
I'd also like to keep costs down as well.  That said, I don't mind
paying a little more for one that would offer a much better option. 

Path one, buy a NAS, possibly used, that has no drives.  If possible, I
may even replace the OS that comes on it or upgrade if I can.  I'm not
looking for fancy, or even RAID.  Just looking for a two bay NAS that
will work.  First, what is a DAS?  Is that totally different than a
NAS?  From what I've found, a DAS is not what I'm looking for since I
want a ethernet connection and the ability to control things over the
network.  It seems DAS lacks that feature but not real sure.  I'm not
sure I can upgrade the software/OS on a DAS either. 

Next thing.  Let's say a NAS comes with two 4TB drives for a total of
8TB of capacity from the factory, using LVM or similar software I
assume.  Is that limited to that capacity or can I for example replace
one or both drives with for example 14TB drives for a total of 28TBs of
capacity?  If one does that, let's say it uses LVM, can I somehow move
data as well or is that beyond the abilities of a NAS?  Could it be done
inside my computer for example?  Does this vary by brand or even model? 

Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as
another option.  They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and faster
models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well.  The
old slower models with small amounts of ram don't fair as well.  While I
want a descent speed, I'm not looking for or expecting it to be
blazingly fast.  I just wonder, if from a upgrade and expansion point of
view, if building a NAS would be better.  I've also noticed, it seems
all Raspberry things come with a display port.  That means I could hook
up a monitor and mouse/keyboard when needed.  That could be a bonus. 
Heck, I may can even put some sort of Gentoo on that thing.  :-D

One reason I'm wanting to go this route, I'm trying to keep it small and
able to fit inside my fire safe.  I plan to buy a media type safe that
is larger but right now, it needs to fit inside my current safe.  Most
of the 2 bay NAS or a Raspberry Pi based NAS are fairly small.  They not
much bigger than the three external hard drives and a couple bare drives
that currently occupy my safe. 

One thing I'd like to have no matter what path I go down, the ability to
encrypt the data.  My current backup drives are encrypted and I'd like
to keep it that way.  If that is possible to do.  I suspect the
Raspberry option would since I'd control the OS/software placed on it. 
I could be wrong tho. 

One last thing.  Are there any NAS type boxes that I should absolutely
avoid if I go that route?  Maybe it is a model that has serious
limitations or has other problems.  I think the DAS thing may be one for
me to avoid but I'm not for sure what limits it has.  Google didn't help
a lot. It also could be as simple as, avoid any model that says this in
the description or uses some type of software that is bad or limits
options. 

Thoughts?  Info to share?  Ideas on a best path forward?  Buy already
built or build?

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 5:38 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> I've pretty much reached a limit on my backups. I'm up to a 16TB hard
> drive for one and even that won't last long. Larger drives are much
> more costly. A must have NAS is quickly approaching. I've been
> searching around and find some things confusing. I'm hoping someone can
> clear up that confusion. I'm also debating what path to travel down.
> I'd also like to keep costs down as well. That said, I don't mind
> paying a little more for one that would offer a much better option.
>
> Path one, buy a NAS, possibly used, that has no drives. If possible, I
> may even replace the OS that comes on it or upgrade if I can. I'm not
> looking for fancy, or even RAID. Just looking for a two bay NAS that
> will work. First, what is a DAS? Is that totally different than a
> NAS? From what I've found, a DAS is not what I'm looking for since I
> want a ethernet connection and the ability to control things over the
> network. It seems DAS lacks that feature but not real sure. I'm not
> sure I can upgrade the software/OS on a DAS either.
>
> Next thing. Let's say a NAS comes with two 4TB drives for a total of
> 8TB of capacity from the factory, using LVM or similar software I
> assume. Is that limited to that capacity or can I for example replace
> one or both drives with for example 14TB drives for a total of 28TBs of
> capacity? If one does that, let's say it uses LVM, can I somehow move
> data as well or is that beyond the abilities of a NAS? Could it be done
> inside my computer for example? Does this vary by brand or even model?
>
> Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as
> another option. They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and faster
> models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well. The
> old slower models with small amounts of ram don't fair as well. While I
> want a descent speed, I'm not looking for or expecting it to be
> blazingly fast. I just wonder, if from a upgrade and expansion point of
> view, if building a NAS would be better. I've also noticed, it seems
> all Raspberry things come with a display port. That means I could hook
> up a monitor and mouse/keyboard when needed. That could be a bonus.
> Heck, I may can even put some sort of Gentoo on that thing. :-D
>
> One reason I'm wanting to go this route, I'm trying to keep it small and
> able to fit inside my fire safe. I plan to buy a media type safe that
> is larger but right now, it needs to fit inside my current safe. Most
> of the 2 bay NAS or a Raspberry Pi based NAS are fairly small. They not
> much bigger than the three external hard drives and a couple bare drives
> that currently occupy my safe.
>
> One thing I'd like to have no matter what path I go down, the ability to
> encrypt the data. My current backup drives are encrypted and I'd like
> to keep it that way. If that is possible to do. I suspect the
> Raspberry option would since I'd control the OS/software placed on it.
> I could be wrong tho.
>
> One last thing. Are there any NAS type boxes that I should absolutely
> avoid if I go that route? Maybe it is a model that has serious
> limitations or has other problems. I think the DAS thing may be one for
> me to avoid but I'm not for sure what limits it has. Google didn't help
> a lot. It also could be as simple as, avoid any model that says this in
> the description or uses some type of software that is bad or limits
> options.
>
> Thoughts? Info to share? Ideas on a best path forward? Buy already
> built or build?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dale
>
> :-) :-)

DAS is direct-attached-storage. I don't think you want that.

Synology (sp?) is sort of a big name in home & small office NAS boxes. You
can buy the boxes with or without drives. I suspect you won't like the
prices.

I wonder if you might consider what data on your backups needs to be
immediately available and which doesn't. Possibly buy an 8TB USB drive,
take a bunch of the lower priority data off of your current backup thus
system freeing space and move on from there?

I built my NAS devices using old computers ala Wol's suggestion to me maybe
a year ago. They work for me but don't have the fastest network interfaces.

Raspberry Pi 4 B's are hard to get and expensive right now. Still, they are
nice little devices but you would probably be limited to USB hard drive
storage.
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 7:37 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as
> another option. They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and faster
> models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well.

For this sort of application the key improvement of the Pi4 over its
predecessors is IO. The Pi4 has USB3 and gigabit ethernet, and they
are independent, so you get the full bandwidth of both (in theory).
That is a massive step up over USB2 and 100Mbps ethernet that consumes
the USB2 bandwidth.

I can't really speak to the commercial solutions as I haven't used
them. Main concern there is just the limited capacity, lack of
expandability, and so on. Some are no doubt better than others in
those regards.

As far as DIY goes, you can definitely do all of that with a Pi4.
Don't expect it to perform as well as sticking it on a decent amd64
motherboard, but for backup and saturating the throughput of 1 hard
drive at a time it can probably mostly make do. Encryption can be
accomplished either with cryptsetup or a filesystem that has native
encryption like ZFS. I've done both on Pi4s for storage. I will warn
you that zfs encryption is not hardware-optimized on ARM, so that will
not perform very well - it will be completely functional, but you will
get CPU-bound. Linux-native encryption (ie cryptsetup/LUKS) will use
hardware capabilities on the Pi4, assuming you're using something it
supports (I think I'm using AES which performs adequately).

For the Pi4 you would need to use USB storage, but for hard drives IMO
this is perfectly acceptable, especially on a Pi. The gigabit
ethernet and internal IO of the Pi is only going to max out one hard
drive no matter how you connect it, so the USB3 interface will not be
a bottleneck. On ARM SBCs that have PCIe you don't really get any
better performance with an HBA and SATA/SCSI simply because the board
IO is already pretty limited. USB3 is actually pretty fast for
spinning disks, but depending on the number of hosts/etc it could
become a bottleneck on a decent motherboard with a large number of
drives. If you're talking about an amd64 with a 10GbE NIC and a
decent HBA with sufficient PCIe lanes for both then obviously that is
going to saturate more spinning disks. For NVMe you absolutely need
to go that route (probably need to consider server-class hardware
too).

I use USB3 hard drives on Pis for my bulk storage because I care about
capacity far more than performance, and with a distributed filesystem
the performance is still good enough for what I'm doing. If I needed
block storage for containers/VMs/whatever then use a different
solution, but that gets expensive fast.

Oh, one other thing. One of your issues is that you're using a backup
solution that just dumps everything into a single file/directory and
requires all the backup storage to be mounted at the same time in a
single filesystem. There are solutions that do not have this
requirement - particularly ones that are adaptable to tape.
Unfortunately the best FOSS option I've found for this on linux is
bacula and that is a serious PITA to use. If anybody has a better one
I'm all ears (the requirement is to be able to store a backup across
multiple hard drives, and this can't involve first storing it all in
one place and then splitting it up later, or having more than one
storage drive attached at the same time - basically I want to treat
hard drives like tapes).

If you're storing a LOT of backups then LTO is another option. Every
time I do the math on that option it never makes sense unless you're
backing up a LOT of data. If you got to a point where your backups
consumed 10+ max-capacity hard drives it might start to make sense.
Those USB3 hard drives on sale for $15/TB though are just really hard
to beat when the tapes aren't all that much cheaper and the drives
cost $1k.

--
Rich
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 5:38 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com
> <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Howdy,
> >
> > I've pretty much reached a limit on my backups.  I'm up to a 16TB hard
> > drive for one and even that won't last long.  Larger drives are much
> > more costly.  A must have NAS is quickly approaching.  I've been
> > searching around and find some things confusing.  I'm hoping someone can
> > clear up that confusion.  I'm also debating what path to travel down.
> > I'd also like to keep costs down as well.  That said, I don't mind
> > paying a little more for one that would offer a much better option.
> >
> > Path one, buy a NAS, possibly used, that has no drives.  If possible, I
> > may even replace the OS that comes on it or upgrade if I can.  I'm not
> > looking for fancy, or even RAID.  Just looking for a two bay NAS that
> > will work.  First, what is a DAS?  Is that totally different than a
> > NAS?  From what I've found, a DAS is not what I'm looking for since I
> > want a ethernet connection and the ability to control things over the
> > network.  It seems DAS lacks that feature but not real sure.  I'm not
> > sure I can upgrade the software/OS on a DAS either.
> >
> > Next thing.  Let's say a NAS comes with two 4TB drives for a total of
> > 8TB of capacity from the factory, using LVM or similar software I
> > assume.  Is that limited to that capacity or can I for example replace
> > one or both drives with for example 14TB drives for a total of 28TBs of
> > capacity?  If one does that, let's say it uses LVM, can I somehow move
> > data as well or is that beyond the abilities of a NAS?  Could it be done
> > inside my computer for example?  Does this vary by brand or even model?
> >
> > Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as
> > another option.  They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and faster
> > models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well.  The
> > old slower models with small amounts of ram don't fair as well.  While I
> > want a descent speed, I'm not looking for or expecting it to be
> > blazingly fast.  I just wonder, if from a upgrade and expansion point of
> > view, if building a NAS would be better.  I've also noticed, it seems
> > all Raspberry things come with a display port.  That means I could hook
> > up a monitor and mouse/keyboard when needed.  That could be a bonus.
> > Heck, I may can even put some sort of Gentoo on that thing.  :-D
> >
> > One reason I'm wanting to go this route, I'm trying to keep it small and
> > able to fit inside my fire safe.  I plan to buy a media type safe that
> > is larger but right now, it needs to fit inside my current safe.  Most
> > of the 2 bay NAS or a Raspberry Pi based NAS are fairly small.  They not
> > much bigger than the three external hard drives and a couple bare drives
> > that currently occupy my safe.
> >
> > One thing I'd like to have no matter what path I go down, the ability to
> > encrypt the data.  My current backup drives are encrypted and I'd like
> > to keep it that way.  If that is possible to do.  I suspect the
> > Raspberry option would since I'd control the OS/software placed on it.
> > I could be wrong tho.
> >
> > One last thing.  Are there any NAS type boxes that I should absolutely
> > avoid if I go that route?  Maybe it is a model that has serious
> > limitations or has other problems.  I think the DAS thing may be one for
> > me to avoid but I'm not for sure what limits it has.  Google didn't help
> > a lot. It also could be as simple as, avoid any model that says this in
> > the description or uses some type of software that is bad or limits
> > options.
> >
> > Thoughts?  Info to share?  Ideas on a best path forward?  Buy already
> > built or build?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
>
> DAS is direct-attached-storage. I don't think you want that.
>
> Synology (sp?) is sort of a big name in home & small office NAS boxes.
> You can buy the boxes with or without drives. I suspect you won't like
> the prices.
>
> I wonder if you might consider what data on your backups needs to be
> immediately available and which doesn't. Possibly buy an 8TB USB
> drive, take a bunch of the lower priority data off of your current
> backup thus system freeing space and move on from there?
>
> I built my NAS devices using old computers ala Wol's suggestion to me
> maybe a year ago. They work for me but don't have the fastest network
> interfaces.
>
> Raspberry Pi 4 B's are hard to get and expensive right now. Still,
> they are nice little devices but you would probably be limited to USB
> hard drive storage.


I was thinking DAS was not a good option.  It seems like a feature
removed and cheaper version of NAS. 

I think I've seen a couple Synology NAS boxes but I think even used they
were a bit pricey.  Still, used could make that a option.  Maybe.  It
could fall into the category of pay a little more for a much better
option, even if it is used. 

I've considered using older systems I have for NAS but they are large. 
Way to large.  It would require a lot of effort to shrink them down if
it is even possible.  A NAS is smaller and designed for what I need as
well.  This is what I found that goes with the Raspberry Pi. 

https://shop.allnetchina.cn/collections/sata-hat/products/dual-sata-hat-open-frame-for-raspberry-pi-4

There is a two bay and a four bay version.  I think the case is the same
for both so I may go with four for future expansion.  Price isn't bad
for that part but as you say, Raspberry Pi board is a bit pricey.  Thing
is, given the amount of control I'd have over it, it could be a better
option long term.  I might add, I think this board is somewhat new.  I
meant to include a link to it but forget.  It could be that you are not
aware of that, or many other people either.  Also, I'd like to buy it
from a more local vendor.  I've bought things from China through Ebay
but it has a guarantee and refund option that is fairly good.  It's a
option I've had to exercise a time or two. 

Part of me wants to buy a used but well featured NAS box.  Part of me
thinks a Raspberry would be better and have upgrade options in the
future as well.  I'm pretty sure I could have encryption on a Raspberry
NAS as well.  I'm not sure if a prebuilt NAS box has encryption or not. 

Hope for some good ideas tho.  I'd like to avoid buying something that
won't come close to serving even current needs or just plain doesn't work.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Am Thu, Dec 08, 2022 at 06:37:52AM -0600 schrieb Dale:
> Howdy,
>
> I've pretty much reached a limit on my backups.  I'm up to a 16TB hard
> drive for one and even that won't last long.  Larger drives are much
> more costly.  A must have NAS is quickly approaching.

Hear hear, ye olde story. ;-)

> Path one, buy a NAS, possibly used, that has no drives.  If possible, I
> may even replace the OS that comes on it or upgrade if I can.

Difficult in consumer-grade stuff, but there are ways, like for Synology:
NetBSD on old Synology hardware:
https://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/sandpoint/instsynology/
And another alternative OS for Synology: https://xpenology.com/forum/

However, even though Synology’s current trend of development is a little
concerning with vendor lock-in and hardware restrictions in their newest
devices, why not use the built-in software? It still is very good and easy
to use and offers all you need like HTTP/HTTPS, FTP, CIFS, SSH, Dav etc. It
uses btrfs or ext4 internally.

Disclaimer: I have no first-hand experience with any of those devices, my
knowledge comes from news about new devices and stuff that I read in a PC
tech forum. Qnap’s software quality does not compete with Synology, and they
also have a worse security track record. So don’t hook it up to the Internet
directly.

> I'm not looking for fancy, or even RAID.  Just looking for a two bay NAS
> that will work.

Why just two? Sooner or later, it will become cramped again. Go for four
bays and leave them empty for the time being.

> First, what is a DAS?  Is that totally different than a NAS?  From what
> I've found, a DAS is not what I'm looking for since I want a ethernet
> connection and the ability to control things over the network.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-attached_storage, you are
right: no ethernet, but direct connection to the host. A beefed-up external
drive enclosure, if you will (from the little understanding I got from the
article).

> It seems DAS lacks that feature but not real sure.  I'm not sure I can
> upgrade the software/OS on a DAS either. 

There is no software, it is just a drive bay and the host that you hook it
up to does all the logic work.

> Next thing.  Let's say a NAS comes with two 4TB drives for a total of
> 8TB of capacity from the factory, using LVM or similar software I
> assume.

AFAIK, consumer NASes don’t use LVM. Probably only standard Raid-1/5/6/10,
JBOD or single disk access.

> Is that limited to that capacity or can I for example replace one or both
> drives with for example 14TB drives for a total of 28TBs of capacity?

Sure, why not? But then I’d buy one without any drives from the start and
install the drives later myself. I wouldn’t know what to do with those small
drives if I replaced them with something larger right away.

> If one does that, let's say it uses LVM, can I somehow move data as well
> or is that beyond the abilities of a NAS?

What do you mean by move? AFAIK, Synology offers SSH access, but I have no
idea what you can do with it in terms of plumbing. And why would you? It is
supposed to do everything under the hood. But as I said, I don’t expect any
of those to use LVM in the first place.

> Could it be done inside my computer for example?

With a DAS, you could. ;-) But if push comes to shove, pull out the drives
and hook them up to your “puter”.


> Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as
> another option.  They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and faster
> models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well.

Just today, in a forum thread about a new Synology with underwhelming
hardware features, people were posting alternatives. One of them was
https://kubesail.com/homepage. Currently it’s only a small case with
2×2.5?. But they also announced a soon-to-come 5×3.5?.

> The old slower models with small amounts of ram don't fair as well.  While
> I want a descent speed, I'm not looking for or expecting it to be
> blazingly fast.

Only the very old devices with puny ARM chips were so slow they couldn’t
saturate Gbit ethernet—with and without encryption. Synologies of recent
years with a Celeron J4000 will have no problem. Current models with AMD
Ryzen R1600 won’t either, but draw much more power in idle and have no
graphics unit. OTOH, they gain ECC memory support.

> I just wonder, if from a upgrade and expansion point of view, if building
> a NAS would be better.

Regardless of whether DIY or OOTB, a NAS is much more practical than a
collection of external single enclosures. Given the rate of your growth and
need of space, I do recommend some kind of RAID for resilience against hard
disk failure. Does LVM offer this at all? TrueNAS runs from a USB stick and
uses ZFS under the hood.

> I've also noticed, it seems all Raspberry things come with a display port.

My Pi 3B has HDMI – and HDMI only.

> That means I could hook up a monitor and mouse/keyboard when needed.  That
> could be a bonus.  Heck, I may can even put some sort of Gentoo on that
> thing.  :-D

You could, but this is either a sink-hole for time, or you need to get up to
speed with cross-compiling and binhosts. I went with the standard Debian and
evaluate Arch from time to time. But I do run Gentoo on my DIY NAS with an
i3-2000. Gentoo has ZFS in portage without overlays, which–for me–is one of
its biggest appeals.

> One reason I'm wanting to go this route, I'm trying to keep it small and
> able to fit inside my fire safe.

How small is small? Given your needs, two bays seem very constrained. And if
four bays don’t fit, consider a dedicated safe – if it is worth the expense.

> I plan to buy a media type safe that is larger but right now, it needs to
> fit inside my current safe.

OK. But then it is pointless IMHO to buy a two-bay device now and a four-bay
later. You spend more money, you need to migrate and it is not ecological.

> One thing I'd like to have no matter what path I go down, the ability to
> encrypt the data.  My current backup drives are encrypted and I'd like
> to keep it that way.  If that is possible to do.

Not sure about that with Synology (it’s probably a small Internet search
away). ZFS has encryption built-in these days. Btrfs does not, it is only
planned, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btrfs. You could use an
encryption layer on your host, so the NAS only receives encrypted data, but
that sounds cumbersome.

> I suspect the Raspberry option would since I'd control the OS/software
> placed on it.  I could be wrong tho. 

Your OS, your features. ;-) I also encrypt my NAS. My main “threat” scenario
is having to send in a drive. That’s why I did not set up any barrier for
decryption: the keyfile just sits on the root partition on the system SSD. I
was thinking about having the keyfile on a remote device like my pi, though.

> One last thing.  Are there any NAS type boxes that I should absolutely
> avoid if I go that route?

As I mentioned, QNAP struggles a little with security. But as long as you
don’t hook it up to the Internet, that shouldn’t be a problem. On the plus
side, they are a little cheaper. But I don’t have any concrete advice to
that question.

> I think the DAS thing may be one for me to avoid but I'm not for sure what
> limits it has.

Well, it has no network, because it has no computer inside. Advantages: one
less system to maintain. Disadvantage: no distributed access, you basically
put the share features onto the host to which you attach the DAS. This also
includes any file system magic like your beloved LVM.

> Thoughts?  Info to share?  Ideas on a best path forward?  Buy already
> built or build?

Well, I gave you a piece of my mind. I like tinkering with storage. I am
also still deliberating how to increase my storage. I am at 80 % of my NAS,
which runs 4×6 TB in a RaidZ2 (meaning 2 of the 4 disks—50 % of gross
capacity—is for redundancy). I could:

- Reduce use of space by re-encoding my 3 TB of DVD copys. I wanted to do
that anyways and it could recover more than 2 TB.
- Install bigger drives. Maybe start out with 2×14 TB and migrate
everything. This will lower power consumption, but leaves me with four
6-year-old, but still perfectly working NAS drives.
- go to RaidZ1, losing redundancy but gaining 50 % space.
- Buy a case with more slots and buy more disks, like the new Jonsbo N1
(which I also found in the thread I mentioned above) with five slots:
https://www.jonsbo.com/en/products/N1.html
Or the Fractal Node 304 with six bays:
https://www.fractal-design.com/products/cases/node/node-304/black/
But both cases require me to buy a new PSU. My current case
(https://www.inter-tech.de/productdetails/SC-4100_EN.html) uses a tiny TFX
one, and that one was very expensive (Gold rated).

My board has “only” six SATA ports. I want to avoid installing a PCIe
card, because that will increase power draw. But since it is a server
board, it has an on-board USB type A, which would allow me to go to
TrueNAS and use all six SATAs for disks.

--
Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

There are things of which I do not even talk to myself.
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 8:59 AM Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> You could, but this is either a sink-hole for time, or you need to get up to
> speed with cross-compiling and binhosts. I went with the standard Debian and
> evaluate Arch from time to time. But I do run Gentoo on my DIY NAS with an
> i3-2000. Gentoo has ZFS in portage without overlays, which–for me–is one of
> its biggest appeals.

++

Obviously I'm a huge Gentoo fan, but on an ARM SBC unless you're
either experimenting or you actually intend to be patching or
reconfiguring packages the precompiled option is the way to go. When
I'm using less-popular SBCs (ie not Pis) then I will usually look for
whatever distros are supporting it in the most first-class way, again,
unless I'm experimenting. Then I look for what has the software I
need already packaged (again, check the arch because a binary package
repo doesn't necessarily include your device, especially if it is 3rd
party). I've had to compile things on ARM SBCs and it is SLOOOOOW.

I have the same philosophy with containers. If I'm just running a
service, and not tweaking things, I'll just pick the least-fuss base
for my container whatever that is.

--
Rich
RE: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2022 6:12 AM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] NAS and replacing with larger drives
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 8:59 AM Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:
> >
> > You could, but this is either a sink-hole for time, or you need to get
> > up to speed with cross-compiling and binhosts. I went with the
> > standard Debian and evaluate Arch from time to time. But I do run
> > Gentoo on my DIY NAS with an i3-2000. Gentoo has ZFS in portage
> > without overlays, which–for me–is one of its biggest appeals.
>
> ++
>
> Obviously I'm a huge Gentoo fan, but on an ARM SBC unless you're either experimenting or you actually intend to be patching or reconfiguring packages the precompiled option is the way to go. When I'm using less-popular SBCs (ie not Pis) then I will usually look for whatever distros are supporting it in the most first-class way, again, unless I'm experimenting. Then I look for what has the software I need already packaged (again, check the arch because a binary package repo doesn't necessarily include your device, especially if it is 3rd party). I've had to compile things on ARM SBCs and it is SLOOOOOW.
>
> I have the same philosophy with containers. If I'm just running a service, and not tweaking things, I'll just pick the least-fuss base for my container whatever that is.
>
> --
> Rich
>
>

Pine64 has an interesting array of SBCs which are both cheaper and (some are) possibly better suited to becoming a NAS than a Pi. One of them even has a PCIe socket I think.

Compiling Gentoo on an SBC is usually a long, slow process, but if you don't mind setting up a cross-compile environment on a more powerful system and using some combination of distcc and/or binpackages then it's not too horrible.

LMP
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 6:59 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> DAS is direct-attached-storage. I don't think you want that.
<SNIP>
> I was thinking DAS was not a good option. It seems like a feature
removed and cheaper version of NAS.

I've never touched a DAS box but my limited understanding is that it's an
external box that interfaces to your computer. In your case that might
attached to your backup machine, or is Rich or someone can point
you toward an appropriate RP4 or some other single board computer
it could attach to that. The problem will be the interface. In big rack
mount servers these interfaces are often some high end version
of PCI Express with Multi-gigabyte/second interfaces. You're just
not likely to find something like that on an RP4.

If you really wanted to tinker you can always find used rack mount
servers being retired from cloud hosting services on Ebay. They
generally come with fast Ethernet interfaces and more than
enough compute power but likely not as much disk space as
you seem to want. (There's lots of used Synology boxes there
also...)

I still think that an 8TB USB drive from Amazon for around $100
would meet your needs. Off load the stuff you don't need to
access from backups immediately, through the drive in your
fire safe and you suddenly have 8TB free on your
backup machine. It's slow, but it's easy and requires no new
computers and hence to mental bandwidth.

Good luck.
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On 08/12/2022 13:31, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 5:38 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com
> <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Howdy,
> >
> > I've pretty much reached a limit on my backups.  I'm up to a 16TB hard
> > drive for one and even that won't last long.  Larger drives are much
> > more costly.  A must have NAS is quickly approaching.  I've been
> > searching around and find some things confusing.  I'm hoping someone can
> > clear up that confusion.  I'm also debating what path to travel down.
> > I'd also like to keep costs down as well.  That said, I don't mind
> > paying a little more for one that would offer a much better option.
> >
> > Path one, buy a NAS, possibly used, that has no drives.  If possible, I
> > may even replace the OS that comes on it or upgrade if I can.  I'm not
> > looking for fancy, or even RAID.  Just looking for a two bay NAS that
> > will work.  First, what is a DAS?  Is that totally different than a
> > NAS?  From what I've found, a DAS is not what I'm looking for since I
> > want a ethernet connection and the ability to control things over the
> > network.  It seems DAS lacks that feature but not real sure.  I'm not
> > sure I can upgrade the software/OS on a DAS either.
> >
> > Next thing.  Let's say a NAS comes with two 4TB drives for a total of
> > 8TB of capacity from the factory, using LVM or similar software I
> > assume.  Is that limited to that capacity or can I for example replace
> > one or both drives with for example 14TB drives for a total of 28TBs of
> > capacity?  If one does that, let's say it uses LVM, can I somehow move
> > data as well or is that beyond the abilities of a NAS?  Could it be done
> > inside my computer for example?  Does this vary by brand or even model?
> >
> > Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as
> > another option.  They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and faster
> > models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well.  The
> > old slower models with small amounts of ram don't fair as well.  While I
> > want a descent speed, I'm not looking for or expecting it to be
> > blazingly fast.  I just wonder, if from a upgrade and expansion point of
> > view, if building a NAS would be better.  I've also noticed, it seems
> > all Raspberry things come with a display port.  That means I could hook
> > up a monitor and mouse/keyboard when needed.  That could be a bonus.
> > Heck, I may can even put some sort of Gentoo on that thing.  :-D
> >
> > One reason I'm wanting to go this route, I'm trying to keep it small and
> > able to fit inside my fire safe.  I plan to buy a media type safe that
> > is larger but right now, it needs to fit inside my current safe.  Most
> > of the 2 bay NAS or a Raspberry Pi based NAS are fairly small.  They not
> > much bigger than the three external hard drives and a couple bare drives
> > that currently occupy my safe.
> >
> > One thing I'd like to have no matter what path I go down, the ability to
> > encrypt the data.  My current backup drives are encrypted and I'd like
> > to keep it that way.  If that is possible to do.  I suspect the
> > Raspberry option would since I'd control the OS/software placed on it.
> > I could be wrong tho.
> >
> > One last thing.  Are there any NAS type boxes that I should absolutely
> > avoid if I go that route?  Maybe it is a model that has serious
> > limitations or has other problems.  I think the DAS thing may be one for
> > me to avoid but I'm not for sure what limits it has.  Google didn't help
> > a lot. It also could be as simple as, avoid any model that says this in
> > the description or uses some type of software that is bad or limits
> > options.
> >
> > Thoughts?  Info to share?  Ideas on a best path forward?  Buy already
> > built or build?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
>
> DAS is direct-attached-storage. I don't think you want that.

Depends. If it fits in the safe, and can be connected using one of these
eSATA thingy connectors, it might be a very good choice.
>
> Synology (sp?) is sort of a big name in home & small office NAS boxes.
> You can buy the boxes with or without drives. I suspect you won't like
> the prices.

I've been looking :-) I think the empty box costs more than the drives
you're going to put in it ...
>
> I wonder if you might consider what data on your backups needs to be
> immediately available and which doesn't. Possibly buy an 8TB USB drive,
> take a bunch of the lower priority data off of your current backup thus
> system freeing space and move on from there?
>
> I built my NAS devices using old computers ala Wol's suggestion to me
> maybe a year ago. They work for me but don't have the fastest network
> interfaces.
>
I get the impression Dale isn't actually PLANNING his disk storage. It's
just a case of "help I'm downloading all this stuff where do I put it!!!"

How much storage do you have in your actual computer? How much space do
you need IN ONE PARTITION? Can you get an external disk caddy that you
just slot bare drives in?

I've no doubt you have good reason for wanting all this storage. I just
fail to see why you need huge drives for it if most of the time you're
not doing anything with it.

Get yourself a basic 4-way DAS/JBOD setup, PLAN where you're putting all
this stuff, and plug in and remove drives as required. You don't need
all these huge drives if you think about what you're going to do with it
all. (And while it takes time and hammers the system, I regularly record
off the TV getting a 2GB .ts file, convert it to mp4 - same resolution -
and reduce the size by an order of magnitude - maybe more.

If you've got two hot-swap JBOD enclosures, that's brilliant. You can
stream from your media centre to a drive, swap it out, and use a second
system to then organise your collection.

Oh - and if you are worried about disks going walkabout, just LUKS the
whole disk, and without the key nobody can read it ... build your
partitions or whatever over it.

Cheers,
Wol
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 11:36 AM Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> > DAS is direct-attached-storage. I don't think you want that.
>
> Depends. If it fits in the safe, and can be connected using one of these
> eSATA thingy connectors, it might be a very good choice.

First, I Agree about 300% with everything you posted in this response.
However
Rich and I have mentioned RPi 4 type solutions and I don't personally know
of any that have eSATA outputs, but it's possible. There are some RPi case
that can hold M.2 and SSD devices but the ones I looked at get there through
a USB port.

> >
> > Synology (sp?) is sort of a big name in home & small office NAS boxes.
> > You can buy the boxes with or without drives. I suspect you won't like
> > the prices.
>
> I've been looking :-) I think the empty box costs more than the drives
> you're going to put in it ...

Certainly more than I would want to spend. However with Dale talking
about 14TB, 16TB, 20TB possibly not. I just cannot imagine Dale
spending that much money on hardware! ;-)

> >
> > I wonder if you might consider what data on your backups needs to be
> > immediately available and which doesn't. Possibly buy an 8TB USB drive,
> > take a bunch of the lower priority data off of your current backup thus
> > system freeing space and move on from there?
> >
> > I built my NAS devices using old computers ala Wol's suggestion to me
> > maybe a year ago. They work for me but don't have the fastest network
> > interfaces.
> >
> I get the impression Dale isn't actually PLANNING his disk storage. It's
> just a case of "help I'm downloading all this stuff where do I put it!!!"
>
> How much storage do you have in your actual computer? How much space do
> you need IN ONE PARTITION? Can you get an external disk caddy that you
> just slot bare drives in?
>

This is a good point. With planning he could have multiple 4TB type
drives with 2 or 3 slots and you plug in the drive you want to use
that day. It would take some minor planning but it's not a huge deal
and as larger drives become less expensive over time he could swap
out a 4TB for 8TB or higher, etc, as he needed to.

If it has the performance he needs he could start with drives he
already has and then upgrade over time moving data around
after he does his planning. ;-)

- Mark
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Am Thu, Dec 08, 2022 at 06:36:14PM +0000 schrieb Wols Lists:

> > > I've pretty much reached a limit on my backups.  I'm up to a 16TB hard
> > > drive for one and even that won't last long.  Larger drives are much
> > > more costly.  A must have NAS is quickly approaching.  I've been
> > > searching around and find some things confusing.  I'm hoping someone can
> > > clear up that confusion.  I'm also debating what path to travel down.
> > > I'd also like to keep costs down as well.  That said, I don't mind
> > > paying a little more for one that would offer a much better option.
> > >
> > > Path one, buy a NAS, possibly used, that has no drives.  If possible, I
> > > may even replace the OS that comes on it or upgrade if I can.  I'm not
> > > looking for fancy, or even RAID.  Just looking for a two bay NAS that
> > > will work.  First, what is a DAS?  Is that totally different than a
> > > NAS?  From what I've found, a DAS is not what I'm looking for since I
> > > want a ethernet connection and the ability to control things over the
> > > network.  It seems DAS lacks that feature but not real sure.  I'm not
> > > sure I can upgrade the software/OS on a DAS either.
> > > […]
> >
> > DAS is direct-attached-storage. I don't think you want that.
>
> Depends. If it fits in the safe, and can be connected using one of these
> eSATA thingy connectors, it might be a very good choice.
>
> […]
>
> I get the impression Dale isn't actually PLANNING his disk storage. It's
> just a case of "help I'm downloading all this stuff where do I put it!!!"

Haha, thanks for the laugh.

> Get yourself a basic 4-way DAS/JBOD setup, PLAN where you're putting all
> this stuff, and plug in and remove drives as required. You don't need all
> these huge drives if you think about what you're going to do with it all.

That’s actually a good idea. Either use a hot swap frame for an internal 5¼?
PC bay, a desktop dock for bare drives or a multi-bay enclosure. The market
is big, you have lots of choices. USB (with or without integrated hub),
eSATA, one or two bays, etc: https://skinflint.co.uk/?cat=hddocks

Advantages:
- no separate system to maintain just for storage: save $$$, time and power
- very flexible: no chassis limitation on number of disks
- no bulky external enclosures, each using a different power brick and cable
- minimum volume to put into a safe (just get or make a bulk storage case)

Disadvantages:
- not as “fancy” as a NAS
- possibly not all disks can be used at the same time
- physical handling of naked disks takes more care
- LVM is not practical, so use each disk separately
- you gotta remember which files are where¹
- SATA connectors aren’t made for very many insertion cycles (I think the
spec says 50?), which doesn’t mean they endure much more, but still …

> (And while it takes time and hammers the system, I regularly record off the
> TV getting a 2GB .ts file, convert it to mp4 - same resolution - and reduce
> the size by an order of magnitude - maybe more.

Well, ts uses mpeg2 encoding, just like old video DVDs, which is very
inefficient when compared with modern h264/h265. Modern digital TV broadcast
uses h264 by now.


Incidentally, I got myself a new HDD today: an external 2.5? WD Passport
Ultra 5 TB with USB-C 3.0. Just because I like portable storage and also
because I need temporary space if I want to convert my NAS RAID-Z2 to Z1.


¹ I do have several external USB disks, plus the big NAS. All of which don’t
run very often. And I don’t want to turn them on just to look for a certain
file. That’s why I have another little script. ;-) It uses the `tree` command
to save the complete content listing of a directory into a text file and
names the file automatically by the name of the directory it crawls. So if I
want to find a file, I just need to grep through my text files.

--
Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

The whale is characterised by its bulky form factor.
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Wols Lists wrote:
> On 08/12/2022 13:31, Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 5:38 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com
>> <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>  >
>>  > Howdy,
>>  >
>>  > I've pretty much reached a limit on my backups.  I'm up to a 16TB
>> hard
>>  > drive for one and even that won't last long.  Larger drives are much
>>  > more costly.  A must have NAS is quickly approaching.  I've been
>>  > searching around and find some things confusing.  I'm hoping
>> someone can
>>  > clear up that confusion.  I'm also debating what path to travel down.
>>  > I'd also like to keep costs down as well.  That said, I don't mind
>>  > paying a little more for one that would offer a much better option.
>>  >
>>  > Path one, buy a NAS, possibly used, that has no drives.  If
>> possible, I
>>  > may even replace the OS that comes on it or upgrade if I can.  I'm
>> not
>>  > looking for fancy, or even RAID.  Just looking for a two bay NAS that
>>  > will work.  First, what is a DAS?  Is that totally different than a
>>  > NAS?  From what I've found, a DAS is not what I'm looking for since I
>>  > want a ethernet connection and the ability to control things over the
>>  > network.  It seems DAS lacks that feature but not real sure.  I'm not
>>  > sure I can upgrade the software/OS on a DAS either.
>>  >
>>  > Next thing.  Let's say a NAS comes with two 4TB drives for a total of
>>  > 8TB of capacity from the factory, using LVM or similar software I
>>  > assume.  Is that limited to that capacity or can I for example
>> replace
>>  > one or both drives with for example 14TB drives for a total of
>> 28TBs of
>>  > capacity?  If one does that, let's say it uses LVM, can I somehow
>> move
>>  > data as well or is that beyond the abilities of a NAS?  Could it
>> be done
>>  > inside my computer for example?  Does this vary by brand or even
>> model?
>>  >
>>  > Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4
>> 8GB as
>>  > another option.  They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and
>> faster
>>  > models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well.  The
>>  > old slower models with small amounts of ram don't fair as well. 
>> While I
>>  > want a descent speed, I'm not looking for or expecting it to be
>>  > blazingly fast.  I just wonder, if from a upgrade and expansion
>> point of
>>  > view, if building a NAS would be better.  I've also noticed, it seems
>>  > all Raspberry things come with a display port.  That means I could
>> hook
>>  > up a monitor and mouse/keyboard when needed.  That could be a bonus.
>>  > Heck, I may can even put some sort of Gentoo on that thing.  :-D
>>  >
>>  > One reason I'm wanting to go this route, I'm trying to keep it
>> small and
>>  > able to fit inside my fire safe.  I plan to buy a media type safe
>> that
>>  > is larger but right now, it needs to fit inside my current safe. 
>> Most
>>  > of the 2 bay NAS or a Raspberry Pi based NAS are fairly small. 
>> They not
>>  > much bigger than the three external hard drives and a couple bare
>> drives
>>  > that currently occupy my safe.
>>  >
>>  > One thing I'd like to have no matter what path I go down, the
>> ability to
>>  > encrypt the data.  My current backup drives are encrypted and I'd
>> like
>>  > to keep it that way.  If that is possible to do.  I suspect the
>>  > Raspberry option would since I'd control the OS/software placed on
>> it.
>>  > I could be wrong tho.
>>  >
>>  > One last thing.  Are there any NAS type boxes that I should
>> absolutely
>>  > avoid if I go that route?  Maybe it is a model that has serious
>>  > limitations or has other problems.  I think the DAS thing may be
>> one for
>>  > me to avoid but I'm not for sure what limits it has.  Google
>> didn't help
>>  > a lot. It also could be as simple as, avoid any model that says
>> this in
>>  > the description or uses some type of software that is bad or limits
>>  > options.
>>  >
>>  > Thoughts?  Info to share?  Ideas on a best path forward?  Buy already
>>  > built or build?
>>  >
>>  > Thanks.
>>  >
>>  > Dale
>>  >
>>  > :-)  :-)
>>
>> DAS is direct-attached-storage. I don't think you want that.
>
> Depends. If it fits in the safe, and can be connected using one of
> these eSATA thingy connectors, it might be a very good choice.
>>
>> Synology (sp?) is sort of a big name in home & small office NAS
>> boxes. You can buy the boxes with or without drives. I suspect you
>> won't like the prices.
>
> I've been looking :-) I think the empty box costs more than the drives
> you're going to put in it ...
>>
>> I wonder if you might consider what data on your backups needs to be
>> immediately available and which doesn't. Possibly buy an 8TB USB
>> drive, take a bunch of the lower priority data off of your current
>> backup thus system freeing space and move on from there?
>>
>> I built my NAS devices using old computers ala Wol's suggestion to me
>> maybe a year ago. They work for me but don't have the fastest network
>> interfaces.
>>
> I get the impression Dale isn't actually PLANNING his disk storage.
> It's just a case of "help I'm downloading all this stuff where do I
> put it!!!"
>
> How much storage do you have in your actual computer? How much space
> do you need IN ONE PARTITION? Can you get an external disk caddy that
> you just slot bare drives in?
>
> I've no doubt you have good reason for wanting all this storage. I
> just fail to see why you need huge drives for it if most of the time
> you're not doing anything with it.
>
> Get yourself a basic 4-way DAS/JBOD setup, PLAN where you're putting
> all this stuff, and plug in and remove drives as required. You don't
> need all these huge drives if you think about what you're going to do
> with it all. (And while it takes time and hammers the system, I
> regularly record off the TV getting a 2GB .ts file, convert it to mp4
> - same resolution - and reduce the size by an order of magnitude -
> maybe more.
>
> If you've got two hot-swap JBOD enclosures, that's brilliant. You can
> stream from your media centre to a drive, swap it out, and use a
> second system to then organise your collection.
>
> Oh - and if you are worried about disks going walkabout, just LUKS the
> whole disk, and without the key nobody can read it ... build your
> partitions or whatever over it.
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
>
>

Getting some good info from different folks.  Picking this to reply to,
last message I read.  I do have a lot of data in my system.  I need the
info at random plus want to keep a backup copy.  If for no other reason,
in case I accidentally delete or overwrite something.  I've done that
before.  I also want backups in case of a sudden drive failure without
warning.  This is about my backup copy, not the drives in my system that
I regularly use.  I have a large Cooler Master HAF-932 case.  I still
got room there.  I may at some point build a NAS for regular storage and
everyday use.  While I would like something power efficient and able to
scale for that, I think a 2 bay, certainly a 4 bay, NAS will give me
plenty of room to grow for my backups.  A NAS for everyday use tho,
that's for another day. 

I kinda like my current setup except that one large directory, it's to
big for a single external hard drive.  I need to span that data over two
or more drives.  That means either a NAS of some sort or another
system.  Since any system I build from old parts I have laying around
would be to large, a NAS is the best long term route.  I mentioned
before, I wish I could split my backup script so that about half of the
data goes to one drive and the other half to a 2nd drive.  If I knew of
a way to tell rsync to split files starting with 'a' through 'k' to one
drive and files starting with 'm' through 'z' to the second drive, then
I could span across two drives without needing LVM or similar software. 
I'm not aware of a way to do that without a ton of work and having to
update my scripts each time I add or remove a directory within the
larger directory. 

Some of this is sort of hard to put into text unless I write half a book
about it.  Basically, I'm needing a way to have external drives with
enough capacity to hold a large directory.  Also some room for growth
and even upgrades would be nice.  Whether I buy a prebuilt NAS or build
one, whichever is the better option and affordable.

Since I forgot to hit send after typing the above, I've got more replies
to read. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 11:56 AM Laurence Perkins <lperkins@openeye.net> wrote:
>
> Pine64 has an interesting array of SBCs which are both cheaper and (some are) possibly better suited to becoming a NAS than a Pi. One of them even has a PCIe socket I think.
>

I have the RockPro64 and I'll go ahead and warn you that you'll need
to patch the kernel if you want to use many PCIe cards. I just tested
out a debian image on it and the several year old patch still hasn't
made its way into there.

The SATA expansion card Pine64 was selling at the time did work out of the box.

https://github.com/rockchip-linux/kernel/issues/116

--
Rich




--
Rich
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 7:37 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as
>> another option. They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and faster
>> models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well.
> For this sort of application the key improvement of the Pi4 over its
> predecessors is IO. The Pi4 has USB3 and gigabit ethernet, and they
> are independent, so you get the full bandwidth of both (in theory).
> That is a massive step up over USB2 and 100Mbps ethernet that consumes
> the USB2 bandwidth.
>
> I can't really speak to the commercial solutions as I haven't used
> them. Main concern there is just the limited capacity, lack of
> expandability, and so on. Some are no doubt better than others in
> those regards.
>
> As far as DIY goes, you can definitely do all of that with a Pi4.
> Don't expect it to perform as well as sticking it on a decent amd64
> motherboard, but for backup and saturating the throughput of 1 hard
> drive at a time it can probably mostly make do. Encryption can be
> accomplished either with cryptsetup or a filesystem that has native
> encryption like ZFS. I've done both on Pi4s for storage. I will warn
> you that zfs encryption is not hardware-optimized on ARM, so that will
> not perform very well - it will be completely functional, but you will
> get CPU-bound. Linux-native encryption (ie cryptsetup/LUKS) will use
> hardware capabilities on the Pi4, assuming you're using something it
> supports (I think I'm using AES which performs adequately).
>
> For the Pi4 you would need to use USB storage, but for hard drives IMO
> this is perfectly acceptable, especially on a Pi. The gigabit
> ethernet and internal IO of the Pi is only going to max out one hard
> drive no matter how you connect it, so the USB3 interface will not be
> a bottleneck. On ARM SBCs that have PCIe you don't really get any
> better performance with an HBA and SATA/SCSI simply because the board
> IO is already pretty limited. USB3 is actually pretty fast for
> spinning disks, but depending on the number of hosts/etc it could
> become a bottleneck on a decent motherboard with a large number of
> drives. If you're talking about an amd64 with a 10GbE NIC and a
> decent HBA with sufficient PCIe lanes for both then obviously that is
> going to saturate more spinning disks. For NVMe you absolutely need
> to go that route (probably need to consider server-class hardware
> too).
>
> I use USB3 hard drives on Pis for my bulk storage because I care about
> capacity far more than performance, and with a distributed filesystem
> the performance is still good enough for what I'm doing. If I needed
> block storage for containers/VMs/whatever then use a different
> solution, but that gets expensive fast.
>
> Oh, one other thing. One of your issues is that you're using a backup
> solution that just dumps everything into a single file/directory and
> requires all the backup storage to be mounted at the same time in a
> single filesystem. There are solutions that do not have this
> requirement - particularly ones that are adaptable to tape.
> Unfortunately the best FOSS option I've found for this on linux is
> bacula and that is a serious PITA to use. If anybody has a better one
> I'm all ears (the requirement is to be able to store a backup across
> multiple hard drives, and this can't involve first storing it all in
> one place and then splitting it up later, or having more than one
> storage drive attached at the same time - basically I want to treat
> hard drives like tapes).
>
> If you're storing a LOT of backups then LTO is another option. Every
> time I do the math on that option it never makes sense unless you're
> backing up a LOT of data. If you got to a point where your backups
> consumed 10+ max-capacity hard drives it might start to make sense.
> Those USB3 hard drives on sale for $15/TB though are just really hard
> to beat when the tapes aren't all that much cheaper and the drives
> cost $1k.
>

From my understanding, you are right about USB3 and GB ethernet being
the big change.  They also have more memory and faster CPUs but if you
bottleneck the data with slow USB and ethernet with the old ones, who
needs a fast CPU?  I think they realized that the USB and ethernet had
to improve.  It got better from there. 

https://shop.allnetchina.cn/collections/sata-hat/products/dual-sata-hat-open-frame-for-raspberry-pi-4

I found the above.  From my understanding, it allows a SATA drive to
connect to either 2 or 4 bays.  That card appears to connect with USB3
ports but I can't see the bottom.  Odds are, especially if data is
encrypted, the CPU will likely max out before the USB and ethernet.  I'd
think anyway.  From what little I've read, they seem to be pretty fast. 

One thing I like about the Raspberry option, I can upgrade it later.  I
can simply take out the old, put in new, upgrade done.  If I buy a
prebuilt NAS, they pretty much are what they are if upgrading isn't a
option.  Some of the more expensive ones may be upgradable, maybe. 

I just wonder, could I use that board and just hook it to my USB port
and a external power supply and skip the Raspberry Pi part?  I'd bet not
tho.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On 12/8/22 05:58, Dale wrote:
>
>
> I was thinking DAS was not a good option.  It seems like a feature
> removed and cheaper version of NAS.
>
> I think I've seen a couple Synology NAS boxes but I think even used they
> were a bit pricey.  Still, used could make that a option. Maybe.  It
> could fall into the category of pay a little more for a much better
> option, even if it is used.
>
> I've considered using older systems I have for NAS but they are large.
> Way to large.  It would require a lot of effort to shrink them down if
> it is even possible.  A NAS is smaller and designed for what I need as
> well.  This is what I found that goes with the Raspberry Pi.
>
> https://shop.allnetchina.cn/collections/sata-hat/products/dual-sata-hat-open-frame-for-raspberry-pi-4
>
> There is a two bay and a four bay version.  I think the case is the same
> for both so I may go with four for future expansion.  Price isn't bad
> for that part but as you say, Raspberry Pi board is a bit pricey.  Thing
> is, given the amount of control I'd have over it, it could be a better
> option long term.  I might add, I think this board is somewhat new.  I
> meant to include a link to it but forget.  It could be that you are not
> aware of that, or many other people either.  Also, I'd like to buy it
> from a more local vendor.  I've bought things from China through Ebay
> but it has a guarantee and refund option that is fairly good.  It's a
> option I've had to exercise a time or two.
>
> Part of me wants to buy a used but well featured NAS box.  Part of me
> thinks a Raspberry would be better and have upgrade options in the
> future as well.  I'm pretty sure I could have encryption on a Raspberry
> NAS as well.  I'm not sure if a prebuilt NAS box has encryption or not.
>
> Hope for some good ideas tho.  I'd like to avoid buying something that
> won't come close to serving even current needs or just plain doesn't work.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)

Dale,

DAS is direct attached storage. If your intention is to share the data
with multiple devices for backup you will need to keep in mind that you
will need a PC to share the data the DAS device is storing. In general,
most DAS require some sort of HBA (some of these HBAs can be hundreds to
thousands of dollars.) I've seen some eSata ones but they usually don't
have stellar reviews. It's also getting harder to find eSata devices.

In contrast NAS devices are designed to plug in to the network and be
shared with multiple devices on the LAN right from the get-go.

You are probably interested in a NAS, not a DAS.

I have an aging ix4-300d NAS. The display has started crashing now but
the device is still rock solid. However I'm in the same boat and have
been researching options - I think for my case I will get a small cube
case and mini-ITX board and roll my own Gentoo install. The cost may
even be slightly cheaper as 4 bay NAS here are quite expensive where I
am (with no drives installed) and building my own will be a bit cheaper
and I can choose what drives to run in it. Vulnerabilities on devices
like QNAP and Synology are very real and at least if you can roll your
own you can keep that to a minimum (like an example not running a web
browser to configure things.)

Dan
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 6:30 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One thing I like about the Raspberry option, I can upgrade it later. I
> can simply take out the old, put in new, upgrade done. If I buy a
> prebuilt NAS, they pretty much are what they are if upgrading isn't a
> option. Some of the more expensive ones may be upgradable, maybe.

The NAS gets you a nice box. The nice box means fixed capacity.

I just use USB3 external hard drives. They're cheaper and easy to
interface. USB3 also has been less likely to give me ATA interface
errors compared to SATA.

> I just wonder, could I use that board and just hook it to my USB port
> and a external power supply and skip the Raspberry Pi part? I'd bet not
> tho. ;-)

Not that one, but USB3-SATA interfaces exist and aren't that
expensive. You can also get nice little enclosures. You can have as
many hard drives as you want on a PC that way, or whatever the USB3
limit is.

--
Rich
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 6:30 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> One thing I like about the Raspberry option, I can upgrade it later. I
>> can simply take out the old, put in new, upgrade done. If I buy a
>> prebuilt NAS, they pretty much are what they are if upgrading isn't a
>> option. Some of the more expensive ones may be upgradable, maybe.
> The NAS gets you a nice box. The nice box means fixed capacity.
>
> I just use USB3 external hard drives. They're cheaper and easy to
> interface. USB3 also has been less likely to give me ATA interface
> errors compared to SATA.
>
>> I just wonder, could I use that board and just hook it to my USB port
>> and a external power supply and skip the Raspberry Pi part? I'd bet not
>> tho. ;-)
> Not that one, but USB3-SATA interfaces exist and aren't that
> expensive. You can also get nice little enclosures. You can have as
> many hard drives as you want on a PC that way, or whatever the USB3
> limit is.
>

One thing about all the recent upgrades, I have extra hard drives. 
Also, if I go the Raspberry path and can still use cryptsetup, LVM etc,
I can just move the drives I'm currently using and may not even have to
move a lot of data around.  Just insert a drive, add another drive with
LVM to increase space and done for the large directory.  Then in other
two bays, do the same or have two different LVM pools or whatever they
called.  All total, OS and all, I have almost 42TBs of storage inside my
running system.  I have a 16TB new drive for backup of large directory
and a 8TB and 6TB for other data backups which include /root, my
Documents directory and such. 

One way or another, I'm going to figure this out.  lol  I got too.  ;-)

I think back sometimes, I started out with a 30GB hard drive waaaay back
in 2003.  I thought I had problems then.  O_O 

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Am Thu, Dec 08, 2022 at 05:30:18PM -0600 schrieb Dale:

> > I use USB3 hard drives on Pis for my bulk storage because I care about
> > capacity far more than performance, and with a distributed filesystem
> > the performance is still good enough for what I'm doing. If I needed
> > block storage for containers/VMs/whatever then use a different
> > solution, but that gets expensive fast.
> > […]
>
> From my understanding, you are right about USB3 and GB ethernet being
> the big change.  They also have more memory and faster CPUs but if you
> bottleneck the data with slow USB and ethernet with the old ones, who
> needs a fast CPU?  I think they realized that the USB and ethernet had
> to improve.  It got better from there. 
>
> https://shop.allnetchina.cn/collections/sata-hat/products/dual-sata-hat-open-frame-for-raspberry-pi-4
>
> I found the above.  From my understanding, it allows a SATA drive to
> connect to either 2 or 4 bays.

Looking at the pics, it looks all very wibbly-wobbly. You will either have
the parts lying around open on a desk or you need to find a case for all
that stuff which adheres to no industry standard form factor. Pi accessories
are quite hard to come by, since they’re often sold out.

> One thing I like about the Raspberry option, I can upgrade it later.  I
> can simply take out the old, put in new, upgrade done.  If I buy a
> prebuilt NAS, they pretty much are what they are if upgrading isn't a
> option.

If you just do storage, what do you need upgrades for, anyway? All it needs
to do is receive your data and write it to disk. And then return it later
when asked for. I don’t remember you mentioning running VMs or some such.
Any current commercial NAS has enough oomph for that, unless it’s a very
cheap ARM-based one. (Only the ecryption part remains to be solved with a
ready-made NAS.)

> I just wonder, could I use that board and just hook it to my USB port
> and a external power supply and skip the Raspberry Pi part?  I'd bet not
> tho.  ;-)

From a practical standpoint, what is the difference then to an HDD dock or a
simple USB-SATA-Adapter? Except that a dock is a “proper”, clean solution
with a nice case, a secure stand on your desk and no finnicky open SATA
cables that could cause disconnects during operation if you touch them the
wrong way.

I know what it’s like to ponder all kinds of options, and it’s fun. But it
seems to me, you’re looking for a solution for a problem you’re still
looking for.

--
Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

Someone who works a lot makes a lot of mistakes.
Someone who makes no mistakes gets awarded.
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On Friday, 9 December 2022 00:03:29 GMT Dale wrote:

> I think back sometimes, I started out with a 30GB hard drive waaaay back
> in 2003. I thought I had problems then.

Then you won't want to know that I paid extra in 1990 for an 85MB drive in my
first PC. No, not GB: MB.

--
Regards,
Peter.
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Daniel Frey wrote:
> On 12/8/22 05:58, Dale wrote:
>>
>>
>> I was thinking DAS was not a good option.  It seems like a feature
>> removed and cheaper version of NAS.
>>
>> I think I've seen a couple Synology NAS boxes but I think even used
>> they were a bit pricey.  Still, used could make that a option.
>> Maybe.  It could fall into the category of pay a little more for a
>> much better option, even if it is used.
>>
>> I've considered using older systems I have for NAS but they are
>> large.  Way to large.  It would require a lot of effort to shrink
>> them down if it is even possible.  A NAS is smaller and designed for
>> what I need as well.  This is what I found that goes with the
>> Raspberry Pi.
>>
>> https://shop.allnetchina.cn/collections/sata-hat/products/dual-sata-hat-open-frame-for-raspberry-pi-4
>>
>>
>> There is a two bay and a four bay version.  I think the case is the
>> same for both so I may go with four for future expansion.  Price
>> isn't bad for that part but as you say, Raspberry Pi board is a bit
>> pricey.  Thing is, given the amount of control I'd have over it, it
>> could be a better option long term.  I might add, I think this board
>> is somewhat new.  I meant to include a link to it but forget.  It
>> could be that you are not aware of that, or many other people
>> either.  Also, I'd like to buy it from a more local vendor.  I've
>> bought things from China through Ebay but it has a guarantee and
>> refund option that is fairly good.  It's a option I've had to
>> exercise a time or two.
>>
>> Part of me wants to buy a used but well featured NAS box.  Part of me
>> thinks a Raspberry would be better and have upgrade options in the
>> future as well.  I'm pretty sure I could have encryption on a
>> Raspberry NAS as well.  I'm not sure if a prebuilt NAS box has
>> encryption or not.
>>
>> Hope for some good ideas tho.  I'd like to avoid buying something
>> that won't come close to serving even current needs or just plain
>> doesn't work.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>
> Dale,
>
> DAS is direct attached storage. If your intention is to share the data
> with multiple devices for backup you will need to keep in mind that
> you will need a PC to share the data the DAS device is storing. In
> general, most DAS require some sort of HBA (some of these HBAs can be
> hundreds to thousands of dollars.) I've seen some eSata ones but they
> usually don't have stellar reviews. It's also getting harder to find
> eSata devices.
>
> In contrast NAS devices are designed to plug in to the network and be
> shared with multiple devices on the LAN right from the get-go.
>
> You are probably interested in a NAS, not a DAS.
>
> I have an aging ix4-300d NAS. The display has started crashing now but
> the device is still rock solid. However I'm in the same boat and have
> been researching options - I think for my case I will get a small cube
> case and mini-ITX board and roll my own Gentoo install. The cost may
> even be slightly cheaper as 4 bay NAS here are quite expensive where I
> am (with no drives installed) and building my own will be a bit
> cheaper and I can choose what drives to run in it. Vulnerabilities on
> devices like QNAP and Synology are very real and at least if you can
> roll your own you can keep that to a minimum (like an example not
> running a web browser to configure things.)
>
> Dan
>
>

I was thinking DAS wouldn't fit my needs.  Just wasn't real sure what
the difference was.  Someone always coming up with something that only
half works.  :/

Right now, I have a modem/router in one that the ISP provided.  I have a
separate router that I use since I can control access with it.  The ISP
modem/router can not be accessed by me.  Supposedly, it has some
protection but without access, who knows.  Either way, I'd connect a NAS
to my router that I control and if possible, forbid internet access.  If
possible, I may restrict it to ethernet access only, no wifi connection
either.  That should lock it down.  Also, I only update backups once a
week for maybe a hour or less.  The window for a hacker would be small
anyway. 

I looked into buying/building a really small puter but with a lot of
drive bays.  Thing is, they have few SATA ports and not many ways to add
any plus they end up being to large.  I really don't like USB for my
data much.  I've had a lot of bad experiences with USB and hard drives. 
Still, if this Raspberry thing uses it and others make it work fine, I'd
give it a shot. 

Still reading posts and trying to sort things out.  Also, searching
around for NAS boxes just in case I run up on a steal of a deal.  :-D 

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Friday, 9 December 2022 00:03:29 GMT Dale wrote:
>
>> I think back sometimes, I started out with a 30GB hard drive waaaay back
>> in 2003. I thought I had problems then.
> Then you won't want to know that I paid extra in 1990 for an 85MB drive in my
> first PC. No, not GB: MB.
>

I worked at a puter place in the late 80's.  They had old hard drives
that were only a few MBs and had 14" platters.  Yes, 14" platters. 
Funny thing is, you could replace the platters in those.  You open the
drive, replace platter, reassemble drive, turn on fan which had a hefty
filter on the intake.  Once it ran long enough to have clean air inside,
spin up the drive and go back to work. 

I even remember when 512KBs of ram was a big deal.  I also remember
having expansion cards that would add a few MBs of ram.  Jeez I'm
getting old.  o_O  We talk about TBs like they are nothing.  My first
puter was a old Vic-20.  4Kbs of ram it had.  I played music on that
thing and freaked my Dad out.  ROFL

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> Am Thu, Dec 08, 2022 at 05:30:18PM -0600 schrieb Dale:
>
>>> I use USB3 hard drives on Pis for my bulk storage because I care about
>>> capacity far more than performance, and with a distributed filesystem
>>> the performance is still good enough for what I'm doing. If I needed
>>> block storage for containers/VMs/whatever then use a different
>>> solution, but that gets expensive fast.
>>> […]
>> From my understanding, you are right about USB3 and GB ethernet being
>> the big change.  They also have more memory and faster CPUs but if you
>> bottleneck the data with slow USB and ethernet with the old ones, who
>> needs a fast CPU?  I think they realized that the USB and ethernet had
>> to improve.  It got better from there. 
>>
>> https://shop.allnetchina.cn/collections/sata-hat/products/dual-sata-hat-open-frame-for-raspberry-pi-4
>>
>> I found the above.  From my understanding, it allows a SATA drive to
>> connect to either 2 or 4 bays.
> Looking at the pics, it looks all very wibbly-wobbly. You will either have
> the parts lying around open on a desk or you need to find a case for all
> that stuff which adheres to no industry standard form factor. Pi accessories
> are quite hard to come by, since they’re often sold out.

They have a case for it too.  Check this out.

https://shop.allnetchina.cn/collections/sata-hat/products/quad-sata-kit-for-raspberry-pi-4-case-only


>
>> One thing I like about the Raspberry option, I can upgrade it later.  I
>> can simply take out the old, put in new, upgrade done.  If I buy a
>> prebuilt NAS, they pretty much are what they are if upgrading isn't a
>> option.
> If you just do storage, what do you need upgrades for, anyway? All it needs
> to do is receive your data and write it to disk. And then return it later
> when asked for. I don’t remember you mentioning running VMs or some such.
> Any current commercial NAS has enough oomph for that, unless it’s a very
> cheap ARM-based one. (Only the ecryption part remains to be solved with a
> ready-made NAS.)

Well, my pool of data keeps growing.  I may need to add drives or
something.  Plus, every few years, I could upgrade the thing if I go the
Raspberry Pi route.  Keep it running fast and all that.   ;-)


>> I just wonder, could I use that board and just hook it to my USB port
>> and a external power supply and skip the Raspberry Pi part?  I'd bet not
>> tho.  ;-)
> From a practical standpoint, what is the difference then to an HDD dock or a
> simple USB-SATA-Adapter? Except that a dock is a “proper”, clean solution
> with a nice case, a secure stand on your desk and no finnicky open SATA
> cables that could cause disconnects during operation if you touch them the
> wrong way.
>
> I know what it’s like to ponder all kinds of options, and it’s fun. But it
> seems to me, you’re looking for a solution for a problem you’re still
> looking for.
>

Given the size of one of the directories I have, it takes two drives, or
soon will, and the use of LVM or something similar.  I can't do that as
it is now.  I've even wondered if I hooked two eSATA drives up and gave
both plenty of time to spin up if LVM would see them both and me be able
to use two drives as one that way.  Thing is, I don't know how LVM
reacts if the two drives become available at separate times, maybe even
many seconds or a minute or so apart. 

My problem is a growing directory.  I admit, It's not increasing as fast
as it was.  When I was on DSL, it limited my speed a lot.  With this new
fiber internet, I can download huge amounts of data in a really short
period of time.  I can download it faster than I can verify it.  I'm
still checking things I downloaded over a month ago.  I'm having fun
doing it tho.  ;-)

I thought about breaking up that huge directory.  Split it into two
parts, the 'a' through 'l' and 'm' through 'z' thing.  Then use two
drives to back it up.  Thing is, the external drive enclosures that I
really like and trust, I can't buy anymore.  They are Rosewill eSATA
drive enclosures.  It has a fan to keep things cool and a display on the
front.  They are really nice and rock solid.  All the USB type drive
enclosures I've tried caused all sorts of problems.  I bricked a couple
hard drives and eventually, the enclosures wouldn't work at all.  The
Rosewill enclosures are the most stable things I've ever seen.  I wish I
could find a few more of them, as spares if nothing else.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
* didn't send to the list the first time :(


On 9/12/22 07:30, Dale wrote:
>
>
> I just wonder, could I use that board and just hook it to my USB port
> and a external power supply and skip the Raspberry Pi part?  I'd bet not
> tho.  ;-)
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>
>

Check this one: https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc4-p-kit/

I have quite few hardkernel devices (inc 5x HC2 using moosefs) and they
are quite good.  I run gentoo, but the included OS is ok. Only gotchais
using an SD card for the OS (less reliable) but getting the optional
eMMC sidesteps that one.

BillK
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On 09/12/2022 01:15, Dale wrote:
> Given the size of one of the directories I have, it takes two drives, or
> soon will, and the use of LVM or something similar.  I can't do that as
> it is now.  I've even wondered if I hooked two eSATA drives up and gave
> both plenty of time to spin up if LVM would see them both and me be able
> to use two drives as one that way.  Thing is, I don't know how LVM
> reacts if the two drives become available at separate times, maybe even
> many seconds or a minute or so apart.

If you're using LVM to link them together, it will wait until they
become available. Okay, not quite the same, but I run raid over
dm-integrity, and it always unnerves me when systemd fires up this job
and it says "waiting for lvm/home". But the system just sits there while
dm-integrity checks its drives, makes them available, raid spots and
loads them, and then the raid is there, lvm spots it, makes lvm/home
available, and the system is up and running ...
>
> My problem is a growing directory.  I admit, It's not increasing as fast
> as it was.  When I was on DSL, it limited my speed a lot.  With this new
> fiber internet, I can download huge amounts of data in a really short
> period of time.  I can download it faster than I can verify it.  I'm
> still checking things I downloaded over a month ago.  I'm having fun
> doing it tho.  ????
>
> I thought about breaking up that huge directory.  Split it into two
> parts, the 'a' through 'l' and 'm' through 'z' thing.  Then use two
> drives to back it up.

I think you're going to have to ...

> Thing is, the external drive enclosures that I
> really like and trust, I can't buy anymore.  They are Rosewill eSATA
> drive enclosures.  It has a fan to keep things cool and a display on the
> front.  They are really nice and rock solid.  All the USB type drive
> enclosures I've tried caused all sorts of problems.  I bricked a couple
> hard drives and eventually, the enclosures wouldn't work at all.  The
> Rosewill enclosures are the most stable things I've ever seen.  I wish I
> could find a few more of them, as spares if nothing else.

Yup, that's my experience of USB, too. It just isn't reliable. And
anything that works and you like, they discontinue!

Cheers,
Wol
Re: NAS and replacing with larger drives [ In reply to ]
On 09/12/2022 00:03, Dale wrote:
> I think back sometimes, I started out with a 30GB hard drive waaaay back
> in 2003.  I thought I had problems then.  O_O

The first drive I bought was - iirc - a 2GB 5.1/4" Bigfoot.

For a Pentium system where the mobo took chips with a max capacity of 32MB.

That was about ten years before you ...

:-)

Wol

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