Mailing List Archive

it keeps growing
337 packages this month to be updated.  It keeps getting more and more. 
Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 9:38 AM n952162 <n952162@web.de> wrote:
>
> 337 packages this month to be updated. It keeps getting more and more.
> Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.

Really it is a somewhat recent thing that Bitcoin overtook Gentoo in
energy use... :)

--
Rich
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
On June 1, 2021 3:38:30 PM GMT+02:00, n952162 <n952162@web.de> wrote:
>337 packages this month to be updated.  It keeps getting more and more. 
>Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.
>
>

One might then ask why you have so many packages? And why you have a computer that consumes enough power for you to be worried about it?

--
Hund
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
Hund wrote:
> On June 1, 2021 3:38:30 PM GMT+02:00, n952162 <n952162@web.de> wrote:
>> 337 packages this month to be updated.  It keeps getting more and more. 
>> Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.
>>
>>
> One might then ask why you have so many packages? And why you have a computer that consumes enough power for you to be worried about it?
>
> --
> Hund
>
>


I was thinking along the lines of how many packages even binary distros
have to update.  I've installed binary based distros before and when
updating those, there can be hundreds, several hundred, packages to
upgrade.  Thing is, those same packages exist in Gentoo.  If one has a
very similar set of packages installed, odds are, almost the same
packages will update in either a source based distro like Gentoo or in a
binary based distro.  The only difference is Gentoo compiles from source. 

If one is really concerned about compile times or the amount of power
needed to run Gentoo up to date, then one has to question not the
updates but why use Gentoo??  While some large packages are available in
binary, Firefox, Libreoffice etc, the vast majority of Gentoo is
compiled from source.  It's why most people use Gentoo, compile from
source with features set like you want.  If one is limited in hardware
or power, Gentoo may not be a good option. 

Makes one think.

Dale

:-)  :-)
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:14 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hund wrote:
> > On June 1, 2021 3:38:30 PM GMT+02:00, n952162 <n952162@web.de> wrote:
> >> 337 packages this month to be updated. It keeps getting more and
more.
> >> Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.
> >>
> >>
> > One might then ask why you have so many packages? And why you have a
computer that consumes enough power for you to be worried about it?
> >
> > --
> > Hund
> >
> >
>
>
> I was thinking along the lines of how many packages even binary distros
> have to update. I've installed binary based distros before and when
> updating those, there can be hundreds, several hundred, packages to
> upgrade. Thing is, those same packages exist in Gentoo. If one has a
> very similar set of packages installed, odds are, almost the same
> packages will update in either a source based distro like Gentoo or in a
> binary based distro. The only difference is Gentoo compiles from source.
>
> If one is really concerned about compile times or the amount of power
> needed to run Gentoo up to date, then one has to question not the
> updates but why use Gentoo?? While some large packages are available in
> binary, Firefox, Libreoffice etc, the vast majority of Gentoo is
> compiled from source. It's why most people use Gentoo, compile from
> source with features set like you want. If one is limited in hardware
> or power, Gentoo may not be a good option.
>
> Makes one think.
>
> Dale
>
> :-) :-)

I totally get why the Linux enthusiast or an IT guy tasked with specific
requirements runs Gentoo. I did from 2001 through maybe early 2018.

There are numerous reasons I moved from Gentoo to Kubuntu 3-4 years ago:

- Kubuntu updates take, in general, less than 1 minute, almost never more
than 5, with an average of 2-3/week. I don't believe I spend more than 10
minutes on average any week maintaining my machines. Most important to me
is in 3-4 years not a single one has failed. Download a little binary,
install, done. Distribution updates (major rev -> major rev) take less than
an hour and this is once a year or two. They are so infrequent that I
typically forget how to do them and have to go read instructions.

- Maintaining a simple Gentoo install with no desktop from source wasn't
bad but the KDE overhead on older laptops was insane for my needs.

- I personally could not perceive any speed advantages in my daily life
running Gentoo. I'm sure there would be some if I was into benchmarking but
I'm not.

- Gentoo lost its way (IN MY OPINION ONLY, and maybe it's better now) 4-5
years ago in terms of a simple 'stable' release. There was a time when I
couldn't update without ~amd64-ing some packages.

- I use two paid-for non-open source applications - Harrison Mixbus (based
on Ardour) and PixInsight. It's WAY easier to get support when running the
same distro these vendor runs and it's been a BIG help in my life to get
that support.

Sadly, I don't have nearly the knowledge of how things work under the
hood on Kubuntu and the user level community is very quiet so I try to make
general contributions here just to stay connected. This is still the best
user group I know of. Friendly, informative experts.

Just my 1.5 cents worth as I listen to Hunky Dory,
Mark
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
On 6/1/21 5:22 PM, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:14 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com
> <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hund wrote:
> > > On June 1, 2021 3:38:30 PM GMT+02:00, n952162 <n952162@web.de
> <mailto:n952162@web.de>> wrote:
> > >> 337 packages this month to be updated.  It keeps getting more and
> more.
> > >> Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > One might then ask why you have so many packages? And why you have
> a computer that consumes enough power for you to be worried about it?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Hund
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > I was thinking along the lines of how many packages even binary distros
> > have to update.  I've installed binary based distros before and when
> > updating those, there can be hundreds, several hundred, packages to
> > upgrade.  Thing is, those same packages exist in Gentoo. If one has a
> > very similar set of packages installed, odds are, almost the same
> > packages will update in either a source based distro like Gentoo or in a
> > binary based distro.  The only difference is Gentoo compiles from
> source.
> >
> > If one is really concerned about compile times or the amount of power
> > needed to run Gentoo up to date, then one has to question not the
> > updates but why use Gentoo??  While some large packages are available in
> > binary, Firefox, Libreoffice etc, the vast majority of Gentoo is
> > compiled from source.  It's why most people use Gentoo, compile from
> > source with features set like you want.  If one is limited in hardware
> > or power, Gentoo may not be a good option.
> >
> > Makes one think.
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
>
> I totally get why the Linux enthusiast or an IT guy tasked with
> specific requirements runs Gentoo. I did from 2001 through maybe early
> 2018.
>
> There are numerous reasons I moved from Gentoo to Kubuntu 3-4 years ago:
>
> - Kubuntu updates take, in general, less than 1 minute, almost never
> more than 5, with an average of 2-3/week. I don't believe I spend more
> than 10 minutes on average any week maintaining my machines. Most
> important to me is in 3-4 years not a single one has failed. Download
> a little binary, install, done. Distribution updates (major rev ->
> major rev) take less than an hour and this is once a year or two. They
> are so infrequent that I typically forget how to do them and have to
> go read instructions.
>
> - Maintaining a simple Gentoo install with no desktop from source
> wasn't bad but the KDE overhead on older laptops was insane for my needs.
>
> - I personally could not perceive any speed advantages in my daily
> life running Gentoo. I'm sure there would be some if I was into
> benchmarking but I'm not.
>
> - Gentoo lost its way (IN MY OPINION ONLY, and maybe it's better now)
> 4-5 years ago in terms of a simple 'stable' release. There was a time
> when I couldn't update without ~amd64-ing some packages.
>
> - I use two paid-for non-open source applications - Harrison Mixbus
> (based on Ardour) and PixInsight. It's WAY easier to get support when
> running the same distro these vendor runs and it's been a BIG help in
> my life to get that support.
>
>    Sadly, I don't have nearly the knowledge of how things work under
> the hood on Kubuntu and the user level community is very quiet so I
> try to make general contributions here just to stay connected. This is
> still the best user group I know of. Friendly, informative experts.
>
> Just my 1.5 cents worth as I listen to Hunky Dory,
> Mark


I wish gentoo would throttle the upstream more.  Is there another source
distribution besides gentoo?  Is LFS a viable competitor?
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 15:38:30 +0200, n952162 wrote:

> 337 packages this month to be updated.  It keeps getting more and more. 
> Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.

Is this because of the switch from Python 3.8 to 3.9 as the default? If
so, there's a news item that covers this and explains how to delay the
switch if you need to.


--
Neil Bothwick

Energizer Bunny arrested, charged with battery :)
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:14 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com
> <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hund wrote:
> > > On June 1, 2021 3:38:30 PM GMT+02:00, n952162 <n952162@web.de
> <mailto:n952162@web.de>> wrote:
> > >> 337 packages this month to be updated.  It keeps getting more and
> more.
> > >> Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > One might then ask why you have so many packages? And why you have
> a computer that consumes enough power for you to be worried about it?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Hund
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > I was thinking along the lines of how many packages even binary distros
> > have to update.  I've installed binary based distros before and when
> > updating those, there can be hundreds, several hundred, packages to
> > upgrade.  Thing is, those same packages exist in Gentoo.  If one has a
> > very similar set of packages installed, odds are, almost the same
> > packages will update in either a source based distro like Gentoo or in a
> > binary based distro.  The only difference is Gentoo compiles from
> source.
> >
> > If one is really concerned about compile times or the amount of power
> > needed to run Gentoo up to date, then one has to question not the
> > updates but why use Gentoo??  While some large packages are available in
> > binary, Firefox, Libreoffice etc, the vast majority of Gentoo is
> > compiled from source.  It's why most people use Gentoo, compile from
> > source with features set like you want.  If one is limited in hardware
> > or power, Gentoo may not be a good option.
> >
> > Makes one think.
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
>
> I totally get why the Linux enthusiast or an IT guy tasked with
> specific requirements runs Gentoo. I did from 2001 through maybe early
> 2018.
>
> There are numerous reasons I moved from Gentoo to Kubuntu 3-4 years ago:
>
> - Kubuntu updates take, in general, less than 1 minute, almost never
> more than 5, with an average of 2-3/week. I don't believe I spend more
> than 10 minutes on average any week maintaining my machines. Most
> important to me is in 3-4 years not a single one has failed. Download
> a little binary, install, done. Distribution updates (major rev ->
> major rev) take less than an hour and this is once a year or two. They
> are so infrequent that I typically forget how to do them and have to
> go read instructions.
>
> - Maintaining a simple Gentoo install with no desktop from source
> wasn't bad but the KDE overhead on older laptops was insane for my needs.
>
> - I personally could not perceive any speed advantages in my daily
> life running Gentoo. I'm sure there would be some if I was into
> benchmarking but I'm not.
>
> - Gentoo lost its way (IN MY OPINION ONLY, and maybe it's better now)
> 4-5 years ago in terms of a simple 'stable' release. There was a time
> when I couldn't update without ~amd64-ing some packages.
>
> - I use two paid-for non-open source applications - Harrison Mixbus
> (based on Ardour) and PixInsight. It's WAY easier to get support when
> running the same distro these vendor runs and it's been a BIG help in
> my life to get that support.
>
>    Sadly, I don't have nearly the knowledge of how things work under
> the hood on Kubuntu and the user level community is very quiet so I
> try to make general contributions here just to stay connected. This is
> still the best user group I know of. Friendly, informative experts.
>
> Just my 1.5 cents worth as I listen to Hunky Dory,
> Mark


On the few binary distros I've dealt with, they update about as much as
Gentoo does.  The ones that don't, tend to run behind.  I installed one
for a temporary test and the packages on it was several versions behind
even stable Gentoo.  It was far behind unstable on Gentoo. 

If one wants smaller updates or is concerned about power usage during
updates, Gentoo is likely not a good choice.  Compiling takes time and
uses power.  It's just the way Gentoo works. It's always been that way
and as long as it is a source based distro, it will remain that way. 
Gentoo isn't the right choice for every application. 

Just my 2 cents.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 11:23 AM Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:14 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hund wrote:
> > > On June 1, 2021 3:38:30 PM GMT+02:00, n952162 <n952162@web.de> wrote:
> > >> 337 packages this month to be updated. It keeps getting more and
> more.
> > >> Pretty soon, gentoo will overtake Bitcoin in energy use.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > One might then ask why you have so many packages? And why you have a
> computer that consumes enough power for you to be worried about it?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Hund
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > I was thinking along the lines of how many packages even binary distros
> > have to update. I've installed binary based distros before and when
> > updating those, there can be hundreds, several hundred, packages to
> > upgrade. Thing is, those same packages exist in Gentoo. If one has a
> > very similar set of packages installed, odds are, almost the same
> > packages will update in either a source based distro like Gentoo or in a
> > binary based distro. The only difference is Gentoo compiles from
> source.
> >
> > If one is really concerned about compile times or the amount of power
> > needed to run Gentoo up to date, then one has to question not the
> > updates but why use Gentoo?? While some large packages are available in
> > binary, Firefox, Libreoffice etc, the vast majority of Gentoo is
> > compiled from source. It's why most people use Gentoo, compile from
> > source with features set like you want. If one is limited in hardware
> > or power, Gentoo may not be a good option.
> >
> > Makes one think.
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-) :-)
>
> I totally get why the Linux enthusiast or an IT guy tasked with specific
> requirements runs Gentoo. I did from 2001 through maybe early 2018.
>
> There are numerous reasons I moved from Gentoo to Kubuntu 3-4 years ago:
>
> - Kubuntu updates take, in general, less than 1 minute…Most important to
> me is in 3-4 years not a single one has failed. Download a little binary,
> install, done.
>
> - Gentoo lost its way (IN MY OPINION ONLY, and maybe it's better now) 4-5
> years ago in terms of a simple 'stable' release. There was a time when I
> couldn't update without ~amd64-ing some packages.
>

Friendly, informative experts.
>
> Just my 1.5 cents worth
>

Another 1.5 cents:

I’ve been doing Gentoo for probably 20 years now. I tend to migrate among
various application areas: numerical modeling, photography, video, and for
a while now a large medical wiki. As my investment in self developed
software and photos has grown, I’ve added zfs to the mix for data
preservation. I am neither an IT guy nor a Linux enthusiast.

Gentoo is the best computing environment I’ve ever experienced. I moved to
it after trying to build some now forgotten Linux software on Slackware.
Getting the dependencies to build on Slackware’s then non-mainstream file
system layout defeated me. And distros like Redhat took a Microsoft like
attitude toward my machine and blithely reformatted partitions that I
didn’t think I had given permission for them to touch. Poof! Data gone.
(Yes, there were backups.) I quickly lost faith in distros like that.
Besides, they didn’t support all the things I wanted to do. Back to doing
it myself and dependency hell.

I distinctly remember discovering Gentoo then and feeling intimidated by
the handbook. But I went ahead. The install was actually straightforward
and, with modest effort, got exactly the system I wanted. It’s been that
way ever since.

What I particularly like is that as my needs and interests have wandered
substantially, there’s always been a Gentoo path to support those needs and
interests. And often enough, even a choice of paths. And well written
documentation and a great user forum for support.

There have been hiccups over the years. In the early days it wasn’t
uncommon to be deposited in some dependency conflict hell on updating or
adding new capabilities. On occasion things got so screwed up that the
easiest path was a bare metal rebuild.

But it’s quite noticeable to me that maintenance has gotten much smoother
over the years. I’ve had some massive updates in the past month. No
conflicts, no build problems. My update scripts “just work”. And so does
everything once they complete.

> Maintenance effort can be measured in various ways. For me, my update
scripts take virtually all the effort out of it. My machines might be
compiling all night when chromium, libreoffice, WebKit-gtk, and Firefox all
decide to upgrade simultaneously, but the time I personally spend is -
maybe - a couple minutes. The machines do all the actual work. And those
few minutes a day are well worth having had the same computing environment
for more than a decade, even through substantial changes in my software
focus. And it’s been cool enough here this year for the heat generated to
be welcome! ;)

Definitely *not* arguing against anyone else’s tastes in computing or
maintenance. Just expressing my pleasure that Gentoo exists and that I get
to benefit from the great work of everyone who makes it possible!

John Blinka
Re: it keeps growing [ In reply to ]
Am Tue, Jun 01, 2021 at 09:13:45AM -0500 schrieb Dale:

> I was thinking along the lines of how many packages even binary distros
> have to update.  I've installed binary based distros before and when
> updating those, there can be hundreds, several hundred, packages to
> upgrade.  Thing is, those same packages exist in Gentoo.  If one has a
> very similar set of packages installed, odds are, almost the same
> packages will update in either a source based distro like Gentoo or in a
> binary based distro.  The only difference is Gentoo compiles from source. 

And that you can’t pick your dependencies. I am doomed to use KDE with
semantic desktop enabled, which includes having a metadata sidebar in
Gwenview that uses 50 % of its space for something I don’t use. :-/

> If one is really concerned about compile times or the amount of power
> needed to run Gentoo up to date, then one has to question not the
> updates but why use Gentoo??

That’s the main reason I went for Arch on my desktop systems. I grew weary
of compile times (and portage’s ever growing complexity which caused an ever
growing Calculating dependencies phase). On Arch, an update, even on a
Pentium-M (meaning single core, 1,5 GHz), was blazingly first.

OTOH I am also annoyed by Arch’s high-volume updates. Sometimes a lib is
changed and I need to re-download 100s of MBs of new packages that are only
rebuilt for that new version of the dependency. In such a case I simply
abort the upgrade. There is no point (save for critical security updates).
I did the same on Gentoo: if there was, e.g., a teeny update to qt, or a
forced rebuild due to some use flag change, I simply postponed the rebuild
until there was an actual upgrade to be had from it, like a new KDE version.

> While some large packages are available in
> binary, Firefox, Libreoffice etc, the vast majority of Gentoo is
> compiled from source.  It's why most people use Gentoo, compile from
> source with features set like you want.

Gentoo was my very first distro and kept that position for many years. Why?
Well, the most important reason for me was the colourful default bash
prompt, believe it or not. It is just so much more readable that an
all-white wall of text (I’m looking at you, apt-get).

I am grateful for what it taught me, like configuring and building one’s own
kernel, handling build errors, understanding the file system, even the
principle of “everything is a file”™, and living on the CLI (which I still
do in Arch).
This all laid the foundation for my professional life. My first job was as
an admin and my only real “education” in that area was my years-long fiddling
with my Gentoo systems. (I have a uni’s degree, but I studied something
rather different.) But very soon after I started that job, I noticed a lot
less desire to sit in front of a Linux terminal all day at home, also, just
to “play” with Linux. Plus I now had a lot less time on my hands.

> If one is limited in hardware or power, Gentoo may not be a good option. 

Well, back in the day I ran Gentoo on everything, including a puny netbook
with an Intel Atom N450. Just building the package tree for emerge -uDNpv
took 17 minutes. I once compiled Firefox on it out of fun; it took almost 24
hours (and there was no noticeable speed increase over the binary package,
which I always used).

I live in Germany, where bureaucracy and lobby interests lead to one of the
highest prices on electricity on the whole planet (or at least Europe).
Power consumption was a motivator for me, not only for fiscal reasons, but
also from an environmental POV. Just because I can do something, doesn’t
mean I have to if I can have the (almost) same result with a fraction of the
effort. But that’s for another thread.

--
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
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