Mailing List Archive: Playstation3 port status woes

Playstation3 port status woes

Nov 24, 2008, 4:50 PM

Post #1 of 9 (13015 views)

Hello,

I'm wondering, who is the maintainer of the PS3 port? I have a few
issues I'd like to raise. One being the fact that it's been built
targeting entirely the wrong ppc arch. Several sources I've come
across state that the pipelines are so different, that doing this
severely hurts performance, and you are in fact better off targeting
generic ppc than running 970-targeted binaries on CELL/BE. Also,
newer gcc's are available now which have an mcpu=cell target and it
would probably be best to make the playstation3 port..... a
playstation3 port! And not a ps3 / g5 port. These machines differ so
much it is incredibly detrimental to try to support both with the 1
port. Specially when there are better ports existing already for g5.

Also, the only available release is still a stage4, that hasn't been
updated in a whole year. While I commend the efforts of the
maintainer so far (apart from the 970 target mistake), it would be
nice if they actually maintained the port, or handed off to someone
more willing if they've grown bored with it.

It is my impression that this specific port currently does not follow
any Gentoo ideals or philosophy, and is desperately in need of change.

Re: Playstation3 port status woes [ In reply to ]

josejx at gentoo

Nov 24, 2008, 5:04 PM

Post #2 of 9 (12699 views)

Permalink

Wes wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm wondering, who is the maintainer of the PS3 port? I have a few
> issues I'd like to raise. One being the fact that it's been built
> targeting entirely the wrong ppc arch. Several sources I've come
> across state that the pipelines are so different, that doing this
> severely hurts performance, and you are in fact better off targeting
> generic ppc than running 970-targeted binaries on CELL/BE. Also,
> newer gcc's are available now which have an mcpu=cell target and it
> would probably be best to make the playstation3 port..... a
> playstation3 port! And not a ps3 / g5 port. These machines differ so
> much it is incredibly detrimental to try to support both with the 1
> port. Specially when there are better ports existing already for g5.
>
> Also, the only available release is still a stage4, that hasn't been
> updated in a whole year. While I commend the efforts of the
> maintainer so far (apart from the 970 target mistake), it would be
> nice if they actually maintained the port, or handed off to someone
> more willing if they've grown bored with it.
>
> It is my impression that this specific port currently does not follow
> any Gentoo ideals or philosophy, and is desperately in need of change.
>
The PS3 "port" (stage 4) that you're talking about was a test build done
by one of the PowerPC team developers, Brent Baude, and isn't an
official release, (as far as I know).

As for a real port, the basic install can be easily done with the
generic ppc/ppc64 stages that we already make! Simply install the
stage3, and recompile the whole system using "emerge world -Duve",
although you may want to rebuild the system targets first. There is no
need for additional stages. By giving you the ability to install on a
multitude of targets, while still allowing for optimization and
configuration, well, that seem like it meets the Gentoo ideals and
philosophy!

That said, we probably do need to make an updated minimal install CD for
PS3 if one doesn't already exist. Unfortunately, the PPC team doesn't
have a whole lot of man-power at this time, so that will get done as
soon as someone decides that it needs to be done and has the time to do it.

Again, you can use *any* LiveCD (even other distros!) to boot the
system, but the current PowerPC stages are adequate to complete a fully
optimized Gentoo on PS3 install.

Hope that helps,
-Joe

Re: Playstation3 port status woes [ In reply to ]

anomaly256 at gmail

Nov 24, 2008, 5:13 PM

Post #3 of 9 (12708 views)

Permalink

Thanks for the response! I see now. I think the problem from my
perspective then is that the docs need to be updated a bit, as they
all point to the 'experimental' sections of the mirrors, which only
contain old 970-targeting ps3 stage4's. I see now that 'releases' has
more generic stage3's suitable for rebuilding specifically for
Cell/BE.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Joseph Jezak <josejx@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Wes wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm wondering, who is the maintainer of the PS3 port? I have a few
>> issues I'd like to raise. One being the fact that it's been built
>> targeting entirely the wrong ppc arch. Several sources I've come
>> across state that the pipelines are so different, that doing this
>> severely hurts performance, and you are in fact better off targeting
>> generic ppc than running 970-targeted binaries on CELL/BE. Also,
>> newer gcc's are available now which have an mcpu=cell target and it
>> would probably be best to make the playstation3 port..... a
>> playstation3 port! And not a ps3 / g5 port. These machines differ so
>> much it is incredibly detrimental to try to support both with the 1
>> port. Specially when there are better ports existing already for g5.
>>
>> Also, the only available release is still a stage4, that hasn't been
>> updated in a whole year. While I commend the efforts of the
>> maintainer so far (apart from the 970 target mistake), it would be
>> nice if they actually maintained the port, or handed off to someone
>> more willing if they've grown bored with it.
>>
>> It is my impression that this specific port currently does not follow
>> any Gentoo ideals or philosophy, and is desperately in need of change.
>>
> The PS3 "port" (stage 4) that you're talking about was a test build done
> by one of the PowerPC team developers, Brent Baude, and isn't an
> official release, (as far as I know).
>
> As for a real port, the basic install can be easily done with the
> generic ppc/ppc64 stages that we already make! Simply install the
> stage3, and recompile the whole system using "emerge world -Duve",
> although you may want to rebuild the system targets first. There is no
> need for additional stages. By giving you the ability to install on a
> multitude of targets, while still allowing for optimization and
> configuration, well, that seem like it meets the Gentoo ideals and
> philosophy!
>
> That said, we probably do need to make an updated minimal install CD for
> PS3 if one doesn't already exist. Unfortunately, the PPC team doesn't
> have a whole lot of man-power at this time, so that will get done as
> soon as someone decides that it needs to be done and has the time to do it.
>
> Again, you can use *any* LiveCD (even other distros!) to boot the
> system, but the current PowerPC stages are adequate to complete a fully
> optimized Gentoo on PS3 install.
>
> Hope that helps,
> -Joe
>
>

Re: Playstation3 port status woes [ In reply to ]

josejx at gentoo

Nov 24, 2008, 5:25 PM

Post #4 of 9 (12696 views)

Permalink

Wes wrote:
> Thanks for the response! I see now. I think the problem from my
> perspective then is that the docs need to be updated a bit, as they
> all point to the 'experimental' sections of the mirrors, which only
> contain old 970-targeting ps3 stage4's. I see now that 'releases' has
> more generic stage3's suitable for rebuilding specifically for
> Cell/BE.
>
>
That may be the case, but as of right now, PS3 isn't specifically
supported, and probably won't be officially supported until we have a
reliable bootable disk. Once we do, I'd be happy to add the PS3
specific sections to the Gentoo/PowerPC handbook. As it stands, the
install procedure is basically the same as any other unsupported
architecture in Gentoo (make it boot, then use our stages), but with the
benefit of supported keywords and stages.

If there is Gentoo documentation that you think needs to be updated to
reflect this, please let me know and I'll get it fixed.
Thanks,
-Joe

Re: Playstation3 port status woes [ In reply to ]

anomaly256 at gmail

Nov 24, 2008, 5:33 PM

Post #5 of 9 (12700 views)

Permalink

I intend to spend some time on this over the next few weeks. Anything
I can do to help take some of the load off? Are there any style
guides for the docs and boot/install media or templates to follow?
Requisite lists?

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Joseph Jezak <josejx@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Wes wrote:
>> Thanks for the response! I see now. I think the problem from my
>> perspective then is that the docs need to be updated a bit, as they
>> all point to the 'experimental' sections of the mirrors, which only
>> contain old 970-targeting ps3 stage4's. I see now that 'releases' has
>> more generic stage3's suitable for rebuilding specifically for
>> Cell/BE.
>>
>>
> That may be the case, but as of right now, PS3 isn't specifically
> supported, and probably won't be officially supported until we have a
> reliable bootable disk. Once we do, I'd be happy to add the PS3
> specific sections to the Gentoo/PowerPC handbook. As it stands, the
> install procedure is basically the same as any other unsupported
> architecture in Gentoo (make it boot, then use our stages), but with the
> benefit of supported keywords and stages.
>
> If there is Gentoo documentation that you think needs to be updated to
> reflect this, please let me know and I'll get it fixed.
> Thanks,
> -Joe
>
>

RE: Playstation3 port status woes [ In reply to ]

nelson_batalha at hotmail

Nov 24, 2008, 5:52 PM

Post #6 of 9 (12700 views)

Permalink

Hi!

> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:33:49 +1100
> From: anomaly256@gmail.com
> To: gentoo-ppc-dev@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-ppc-dev] Playstation3 port status woes
>
> I intend to spend some time on this over the next few weeks. Anything
> I can do to help take some of the load off? Are there any style
> guides for the docs and boot/install media or templates to follow?
> Requisite lists?

(I offered for the same task, a bug was started so I could join gentoo but since then didn't get a reply).

>
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Joseph Jezak <josejx@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Wes wrote:
> >> Thanks for the response! I see now. I think the problem from my
> >> perspective then is that the docs need to be updated a bit, as they
> >> all point to the 'experimental' sections of the mirrors, which only
> >> contain old 970-targeting ps3 stage4's. I see now that 'releases' has
> >> more generic stage3's suitable for rebuilding specifically for
> >> Cell/BE.
> >>
> >>
> > That may be the case, but as of right now, PS3 isn't specifically
> > supported, and probably won't be officially supported until we have a
> > reliable bootable disk. Once we do, I'd be happy to add the PS3
> > specific sections to the Gentoo/PowerPC handbook. As it stands, the
> > install procedure is basically the same as any other unsupported
> > architecture in Gentoo (make it boot, then use our stages), but with the
> > benefit of supported keywords and stages.
> >
> > If there is Gentoo documentation that you think needs to be updated to
> > reflect this, please let me know and I'll get it fixed.
> > Thanks,
> > -Joe
> >
> >
>

Will this bootable disk be only to the ps3? What problems are you having building it?

If so, afaik the livecd and stage4 could be released in the same file, since a livecd can be only a stage4 with a specific boot config file if I recall. A simple install procedure could be written so a user would approprietly copy the cd contents to the disk. (I was actually writting a GTK gui that did just that along with specific ps3 configurations). It's really annoying to compile everything from a stage3, are you dropping stage4 support for it?

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Re: Playstation3 port status woes [ In reply to ]

josejx at gentoo

Nov 25, 2008, 5:04 AM

Post #7 of 9 (12689 views)

Permalink

Nelson Batalha wrote:
> Hi!
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:33:49 +1100
>> From: anomaly256@gmail.com
>> To: gentoo-ppc-dev@lists.gentoo.org
>> Subject: Re: [gentoo-ppc-dev] Playstation3 port status woes
>>
>> I intend to spend some time on this over the next few weeks. Anything
>> I can do to help take some of the load off? Are there any style
>> guides for the docs and boot/install media or templates to follow?
>> Requisite lists?
>>
>
> (I offered for the same task, a bug was started so I could join gentoo but since then didn't get a reply).
>
>
What's the bug #? Have you been working on testing some of our open
bugs? We need testers just as much as developers and becoming a
developer is a whole lot easier if we know who you are from helping with
testing. Either way, email me out of this thread if you'd like some
help with the process.
> Will this bootable disk be only to the ps3? What problems are you having building it?
>
I would assume that all we'd need is a kernel and initrd to make it
boot, the existing minimal cd should be adequate otherwise. Again,
Brent is the release engineering person, so he's the one you should be
asking.

> If so, afaik the livecd and stage4 could be released in the same file, since a livecd can be only a stage4 with a specific boot config file if I recall. A simple install procedure could be written so a user would approprietly copy the cd contents to the disk. (I was actually writting a GTK gui that did just that along with specific ps3 configurations). It's really annoying to compile everything from a stage3, are you dropping stage4 support for it?
>
I don't see the benefit of releasing a stage 4 build, since that would
essentially require us to make decisions as to what you should have on
your system. While it is convenient, I would suspect that most Gentoo
users would choose not to use it. Again, you're more than welcome to
prepare a repository of pre-built packages for PS3, but it's unlikely
that we'll do that in an official sense (speaking for myself here, if
others want to do it, more power to them!).

Hope that helps,
-Joe

Re: Playstation3 port status woes [ In reply to ]

lu_zero at gentoo

Nov 25, 2008, 5:05 AM

Post #8 of 9 (12700 views)

Permalink

On 25-11-2008 2:52, Nelson Batalha wrote:

> Will this bootable disk be only to the ps3?

Plausibly maybe, much depends on the bootloader you pick to install on
the ps3...

> What problems are you having building it?

Basically spare time.

> If so, afaik the livecd and stage4 could be
> released in the same file, since a livecd can be
> only a stage4 with a specific boot config file if I recall.
> A simple install procedure could be written so a user would
> appropriately copy the cd contents to the disk.

It does exist already...

> (I was actually writing a GTK gui that did just that along
> with specific ps3 configurations).

Check the graphical installer available in recent releases, I'm quite
sure would be nice having a patch to support the ps3 target.

> It's really annoying to compile everything from a stage3,
> are you dropping stage4 support for it?

I'd suggest to use a cross-distcc setup to speed things up...

lu

RE: Playstation3 port status woes [ In reply to ]

nelson_batalha at hotmail

Nov 25, 2008, 5:56 AM

Post #9 of 9 (12691 views)

Permalink

> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:05:11 +0100
> From: lu_zero@gentoo.org
> To: gentoo-ppc-dev@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-ppc-dev] Playstation3 port status woes

> > If so, afaik the livecd and stage4 could be
> > released in the same file, since a livecd can be
> > only a stage4 with a specific boot config file if I recall.
> > A simple install procedure could be written so a user would
> > appropriately copy the cd contents to the disk.
>
> It does exist already...
>

I'm aware they exist already, what I'm saying is that to shorten developing time the next version could be all-in-one. If you preserve things like the portage database the next livecd could be the next stage4.

> > (I was actually writing a GTK gui that did just that along
> > with specific ps3 configurations).
>
> Check the graphical installer available in recent releases, I'm quite
> sure would be nice having a patch to support the ps3 target.

If you're talking about the GLI I personally didn't like it very much for this and the code was huge. Since the ps3 install from a stage4 is so simple I figured it would be easy to create and maintain a separate installer.

> > It's really annoying to compile everything from a stage3,
> > are you dropping stage4 support for it?
>
> I'd suggest to use a cross-distcc setup to speed things up...
>
> lu

For me yes, but cross-compiling isn't officially supported, so ruling out an official stage4 would leave a stage3 install with compiling everything on the ps3 the only supported way to do things. I was hoping this would be a first contact to linux to many users (since it's the only OS installable on the ps3), while I appreciate the gentoo handbook approach a lot, until crossdev is working better it's just too hard for them wouldn't you agree?

nelson
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