Mailing List Archive

On 9/11/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> ppc-macos is dead, long live ppc-macos
>
> Is ppc-macos a phoenix, that reborns from its own ashes? Would be nice,
> but I think not entirely. With the ppc-macos team going down from once
> 17 to now 2 people, of which one actively supporting the main tree, and
> that one person being me, I feel I'm done with it now. ppc-macos in the
> tree as it is now is going to die, unless someone steps up to maintain
> it. I personally, am done with it, in the form it is, which is more
> trouble than happyness sometimes.

Er, could you summarize what that means for those of us that have been
waiting to use Gentoo as a fink or darwinports/macports replacement
since 2004? Is the project shutting down, or just some part of it?

Just a bit confused, I thought that some prefixed-progress was finally
being made.

> What drove me to that descision? The new council? Not really. What
> really drove me there is the existence of a prefixed portage, and a tree
> where I have Vim and Mutt, as most important proofs of concept.
> Unfortunately the amd64 variant of the prefix isn't entirely working
> yet, with many linker problems, but for OSX it seems to work fine.
> Actually, it seems to work better. And I'm quite happy with it like
> this.

Now I'm doubly confused, since you're saying stuff is working. What
is dead and what isn't???

> Personally, I'm fed up with the whole Gentoo system, and the heavy doors
> you can only slightly open with the most efforts. Kito being mia, also
> means one of the biggest driving forces behind prefixed portage being
> gone. Exg is busy, which leaves me, not knowledgable enough for most of
> the stuff I've done here to get it working. I won't really be surprised
> if it's done not entirely correct, but so it is. I'm not going to pull
> the prefix car, write the glep and try to get it accepted by the rest.

What about the "gentoo system" are you fed up with? Are you talking
about the community system? Other than your metaphor of heavy doors,
the rest of your paragraph just points out that you are doing stuff
all alone. I'd be happy to help test ebuilds and stuff, once there's
some beta-quality system to test them with.

> I know prefix is working now. I use it in the situations where I wanted
> to have it. I know there will be people completely killing it. I hope
> there will be people that would like to have it, and see something in
> it. For me, the proof is there. It is "done". I greatly feel
> innovations have no place within Gentoo, which is the biggest cause for
> it's big decay. We should have a "sync mechanism" for our prefix tree.
> I feel stuck, and in the mudd, I've come far enough to know I was right.
>
> This is not exactly my resignition lettre. Officially I shouldn't
> exist, even. I just want to tell that I've finally given up on
> ppc-macos in the main tree as it is. I don't need it any more.

There's no sync mechanism for the prefix tree? That doesn't sound
very...usable. Is this the "heavy door" you were referring to
earlier?

> Maybe someone should send this to gentoo-dev even... not sure.

Beats me.

Is there anything I can help with? I'm sick of waiting, but I only
have superficial experience with toolchain-related issues and the
inner workings of portage itself. So I've waited...and waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...

~ Nathan
--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list

On 11-09-2006 15:22:03 -0600, Nathan wrote:
> On 9/11/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >ppc-macos is dead, long live ppc-macos

[snip]

> Er, could you summarize what that means for those of us that have been
> waiting to use Gentoo as a fink or darwinports/macports replacement
> since 2004? Is the project shutting down, or just some part of it?
>
> Just a bit confused, I thought that some prefixed-progress was finally
> being made.

It means that what's in the Gentoo tree now, which was already
deprecated for ages (there isn't even an official installer) is dead.
At least from my point of view it is. The prefix stuff, at least on
OSX/PPC is usable enough to be a replacement for that.

[snip]

> Now I'm doubly confused, since you're saying stuff is working. What
> is dead and what isn't???

I think my previous reply explains that.

> >Personally, I'm fed up with the whole Gentoo system, and the heavy doors
> >you can only slightly open with the most efforts. Kito being mia, also
> >means one of the biggest driving forces behind prefixed portage being
> >gone. Exg is busy, which leaves me, not knowledgable enough for most of
> >the stuff I've done here to get it working. I won't really be surprised
> >if it's done not entirely correct, but so it is. I'm not going to pull
> >the prefix car, write the glep and try to get it accepted by the rest.
>
> What about the "gentoo system" are you fed up with? Are you talking
> about the community system? Other than your metaphor of heavy doors,
> the rest of your paragraph just points out that you are doing stuff
> all alone. I'd be happy to help test ebuilds and stuff, once there's
> some beta-quality system to test them with.

It's not that people didn't want to help out. It's just that we (I?)
need developer help. And also "acceptance" from the Gentoo developer
community. Ideally, we would get prefix support in the main tree, with
all current arches using PREFIX="", while we would be the only ones
using PREFIX="/somewhere/else/". As I feel right now, I'm not even
going to try to suggest this to the community.

> There's no sync mechanism for the prefix tree? That doesn't sound
> very...usable.

I'll try and see what infra can and will do for us.

> Is this the "heavy door" you were referring to earlier?

Getting infra to do this for us, is part of this heavy door.

> Is there anything I can help with? I'm sick of waiting, but I only
> have superficial experience with toolchain-related issues and the
> inner workings of portage itself. So I've waited...and waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...

Yes, test, test, test. Try to bootstrap a prefixed system, ask for help
here, get it running, report which packages miss, which onces are
outdated, etc.

--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list

>> Just a bit confused, I thought that some prefixed-progress was finally
>> being made.
>
> It means that what's in the Gentoo tree now, which was already
> deprecated for ages (there isn't even an official installer) is dead.
> At least from my point of view it is. The prefix stuff, at least on
> OSX/PPC is usable enough to be a replacement for that.
>

This is sad. Seems there is nolonger a supported way of building source
packages
for MacOSX into root, to be found without special environments.
If I wanted to use prefixed trees, I could also use Darwinports or Frink :(

Sorry about your decision, even if I think you have the right to do this.

Regards
Dirk

--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list

On 13-09-2006 09:23:46 +0200, Dirk Schönberger wrote:
> >> Just a bit confused, I thought that some prefixed-progress was finally
> >> being made.
> >
> > It means that what's in the Gentoo tree now, which was already
> > deprecated for ages (there isn't even an official installer) is dead.
> > At least from my point of view it is. The prefix stuff, at least on
> > OSX/PPC is usable enough to be a replacement for that.
> >
>
> This is sad. Seems there is nolonger a supported way of building source
> packages
> for MacOSX into root, to be found without special environments.
> If I wanted to use prefixed trees, I could also use Darwinports or Frink :(
>
> Sorry about your decision, even if I think you have the right to do this.

use PREFIX=""

I guess creating a profile with all package.provided stuff would be able
to do it, so a simulation of what you have is there.

--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list

On 9/13/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Yes, test, test, test. Try to bootstrap a prefixed system, ask for help
> here, get it running, report which packages miss, which onces are
> outdated, etc.

Where does one start the process? The wiki?

~ Nathan
--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list

On 13-09-2006 12:46:38 -0600, Nathan wrote:
> On 9/13/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >Yes, test, test, test. Try to bootstrap a prefixed system, ask for help
> >here, get it running, report which packages miss, which onces are
> >outdated, etc.
>
> Where does one start the process? The wiki?

If you can, please. Feel free to comment on the process, and ask
whenever you get stuck, or even update the wiki if you figure something
out that's not in there.

--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list

On 9/13/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 13-09-2006 12:46:38 -0600, Nathan wrote:
> > On 9/13/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > >Yes, test, test, test. Try to bootstrap a prefixed system, ask for help
> > >here, get it running, report which packages miss, which onces are
> > >outdated, etc.
> >
> > Where does one start the process? The wiki?
>
> If you can, please. Feel free to comment on the process, and ask
> whenever you get stuck, or even update the wiki if you figure something
> out that's not in there.

Ok, I'm in. I'll background running through
http://gentoo-wiki.com/Portage-prefix ... assuming that's the right
page to start on.

~ Nathan
--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list

I htought about this a while before answering, because at first I wasn't
really sure what to answer.

On Monday 11 September 2006 21:50, Grobian wrote:
> Is ppc-macos a phoenix, that reborns from its own ashes? Would be nice,
> but I think not entirely. With the ppc-macos team going down from once
> 17 to now 2 people, of which one actively supporting the main tree, and
> that one person being me, I feel I'm done with it now. ppc-macos in the
> tree as it is now is going to die, unless someone steps up to maintain
> it. I personally, am done with it, in the form it is, which is more
> trouble than happyness sometimes.
I understand how you feel, this is not exactly a clean situation or an easy
one.
And I already told you before that this would happen whenever prefix would
have been stable enough. Unfortunately you not only hidden prefix from most
of the possible users/developers, but also never provided a status to the
other fellow developers :/

> For me, the proof is there. It is "done". I greatly feel
> innovations have no place within Gentoo, which is the biggest cause for
> it's big decay.
As I said, you've hidden it, you "stole" it from the eyes of who needed to
know about it, and now you're stuck in having to bring it in again, slowly,
so that it can become the norm. It is bureaucracy mostly? Yes. Could have
been avoided? Unlikely. Could have been solved more easily? Sure.

--
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

On 14-09-2006 13:19:06 +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> I htought about this a while before answering, because at first I wasn't
> really sure what to answer.
>
> On Monday 11 September 2006 21:50, Grobian wrote:
> > Is ppc-macos a phoenix, that reborns from its own ashes? Would be nice,
> > but I think not entirely. With the ppc-macos team going down from once
> > 17 to now 2 people, of which one actively supporting the main tree, and
> > that one person being me, I feel I'm done with it now. ppc-macos in the
> > tree as it is now is going to die, unless someone steps up to maintain
> > it. I personally, am done with it, in the form it is, which is more
> > trouble than happyness sometimes.
> I understand how you feel, this is not exactly a clean situation or an easy
> one.
> And I already told you before that this would happen whenever prefix would
> have been stable enough. Unfortunately you not only hidden prefix from most
> of the possible users/developers, but also never provided a status to the
> other fellow developers :/

You know this is pretty not so true. We did a GWN message on it, and
got a lot of shit on that back. Also fellow developers, which I talked
to (even gave a presentation on it) in Kranzberg and Brussels on Gentoo
meetings never showed any interest nor excitement. Well, have to be
honest, one or two did, but not the kind of really getting the hands
dirty.

> > For me, the proof is there. It is "done". I greatly feel
> > innovations have no place within Gentoo, which is the biggest cause for
> > it's big decay.
> As I said, you've hidden it, you "stole" it from the eyes of who needed to
> know about it, and now you're stuck in having to bring it in again, slowly,
> so that it can become the norm. It is bureaucracy mostly? Yes. Could have
> been avoided? Unlikely. Could have been solved more easily? Sure.

You know pretty well how much I am put outside of the game. Though I
understand your opinion on this, my role in this case was clearly pretty
much done after "it". Not to mention that basically everything/everyone
that was involved in "it" died afterwards, left, or considers leaving
pretty soon, feeling all got worse, instead of better.

But, to try and get some of the positive stuff out of your email, I
consider posting something to -dev or -core. However, I'm all but
motivated to do this, as well as clueless how to put it down. Basically
I am not really waiting on the "yay let's finally remove the ppc-macos
keyword from the tree" fests. I guess they can also do that without me.
So maybe you have some ideas on that. Maybe off-list is better suited.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list

On Thursday 14 September 2006 14:32, Grobian wrote:
> You know this is pretty not so true. We did a GWN message on it, and
> got a lot of shit on that back.
No, you got ciaranm yelling at you. I wouldn't consider that "a lot of shit",
especially considered that *I* was the one who should have handled him, as I
was, and still am, the Gentoo/Alt project lead.

> Also fellow developers, which I talked
> to (even gave a presentation on it) in Kranzberg and Brussels on Gentoo
> meetings never showed any interest nor excitement.
I know of at least a few fellow developers who were quite interested in it,
but didn't want it for Mac OS X, and they mostly thought prefix was supposed
to be just for that.

> Not to mention that basically everything/everyone
> that was involved in "it" died afterwards, left, or considers leaving
> pretty soon, feeling all got worse, instead of better.
I also told you that some issues should have handled by me solely.
Unfortunately it seemed to me that both you and Kito were scared by the
boogeyman, that you thought he could kill your project even when I was
appointed as Gentoo/Alt lead covering the empty seat and thus being the one
the boogeyman should have talked to.

And mind what? I didn't receive any complain directly, because it was more
effective to scare you guys off than trying to find a reason while being in
the wrong side of the discussion.

Maybe we didn't get much support in the past, but also the QA issues brought
on by solar was handled pretty quickly, without any problem, ending up
dissolving like a soap bubble.

I think the only thing that might resurrect Gentoo for Mac OS X, and Prefix
together, and Gentoo/Alt as a whole, is trying to do more public things.
Maybe we should find a developer to handle these things and blog about them
(exg, want to open one?) so that it gets more spot on. You told me before
that you wanted something usable to present before going public. Well, I
think you have something already, but it's not public yet.

I asked you a few times to help me with the GLEP, and you basically refused.
Of course even others refused, but they didn't have any interest in helping
me.. but I'm pretty sure that if anybody helped with that GLEP, they wouldn't
have found any way to hinder us on its process. But I was tired after that,
and I admit I simply given up soon about it, thinking of more direct impact.

Right now, with the new commitment of the council, I do want this to continue
and proceed. And I'm sorry, this will happen that you want it or not; we
might take another year before going usable, but I'm not afraid. In an year,
Gentoo/FreeBSD started from something almost unusable and entered the tree..
helped mostly by a single developer that was just recruited... because I
wanted it and I wasn't scared by the boogeyman or by developers that didn't
like the project at first.

And now? There are UberLord and steev with Gentoo/FreeBSD installed, hanging
out on #gentoo-bsd and testing their own packages.

Sorry if you lost interest in Gentoo because of the devrel issue, but I'm
afraid that was just another mistake...

--
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

On 14-09-2006 18:30:41 +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> On Thursday 14 September 2006 14:32, Grobian wrote:
> > You know this is pretty not so true. We did a GWN message on it, and
> > got a lot of shit on that back.
> No, you got ciaranm yelling at you. I wouldn't consider that "a lot of shit",
> especially considered that *I* was the one who should have handled him, as I
> was, and still am, the Gentoo/Alt project lead.

Let's skip this issue, and leave it behind.

> > Also fellow developers, which I talked
> > to (even gave a presentation on it) in Kranzberg and Brussels on Gentoo
> > meetings never showed any interest nor excitement.
> I know of at least a few fellow developers who were quite interested in it,
> but didn't want it for Mac OS X, and they mostly thought prefix was supposed
> to be just for that.

I always stressed it not to be an OSX only thing. But anyway. I see
your point.

> > Not to mention that basically everything/everyone
> > that was involved in "it" died afterwards, left, or considers leaving
> > pretty soon, feeling all got worse, instead of better.
> I also told you that some issues should have handled by me solely.
> Unfortunately it seemed to me that both you and Kito were scared by the
> boogeyman, that you thought he could kill your project even when I was
> appointed as Gentoo/Alt lead covering the empty seat and thus being the one
> the boogeyman should have talked to.

I have no idea who or what you are referring to here. I know we don't
always agreed, but I never saw you as a threat to the OSX people.

[snip]

> Maybe we didn't get much support in the past, but also the QA issues brought
> on by solar was handled pretty quickly, without any problem, ending up
> dissolving like a soap bubble.

What is the relation between this particular action and devs not
interested in prefixed code?

> I think the only thing that might resurrect Gentoo for Mac OS X, and Prefix
> together, and Gentoo/Alt as a whole, is trying to do more public things.
> Maybe we should find a developer to handle these things and blog about them
> (exg, want to open one?) so that it gets more spot on. You told me before
> that you wanted something usable to present before going public. Well, I
> think you have something already, but it's not public yet.

Ok. So, you want to "fight". Well, my ears are opened. Listen, we
have something "usable", ok. But it not being public? It's public as
hell! Well, we don't have a project page... maybe we should make one,
but to me, prefix is pretty obvious, and can be found with google. I'm
just not an IRC person, and I don't do monthly -dev postings. I
wouldn't mind writing some prefix progress stuff each month, telling
what I did. I'm willing to do something, if you think it can go
somewhere in a direction which is not in vain.

> I asked you a few times to help me with the GLEP, and you basically refused.
> Of course even others refused, but they didn't have any interest in helping
> me.. but I'm pretty sure that if anybody helped with that GLEP, they wouldn't
> have found any way to hinder us on its process. But I was tired after that,
> and I admit I simply given up soon about it, thinking of more direct impact.

If you refer to the GLEP of the keywords, then I think we have a
miscommunication. We should reword it (my english is too cryptic) and
flesh out the outstanding issues. If you mean a GLEP about prefix here,
then I don't recall someone ever mentioning it apart from ferringb.

> Right now, with the new commitment of the council, I do want this to continue
> and proceed. And I'm sorry, this will happen that you want it or not; we
> might take another year before going usable, but I'm not afraid. In an year,
> Gentoo/FreeBSD started from something almost unusable and entered the tree..
> helped mostly by a single developer that was just recruited... because I
> wanted it and I wasn't scared by the boogeyman or by developers that didn't
> like the project at first.

You most certainly deserve kudos for putting Gentoo/FreeBSD in the tree.
And yes, it was done in a nice way. Just don't attack me for not being
the role I don't want to be. I want to spend the time I have on
things within Gentoo which make me glow, that doesn't mean I'm a born
leader or fighter for the things I want to have.

> Sorry if you lost interest in Gentoo because of the devrel issue, but I'm
> afraid that was just another mistake...

I bet you know that the desire to be in Gentoo making Prefix work, was
stronger than the anger towards it. If there would be no interest, I
would not be here. Though, for my own health, it is much better to be
working without too much aggitation.

Now I hope we can continue this discussion in a lighter fashion, because
I'm willing to make something going, to put efforts in that. I don't
want you to fuel your anger with my stupid stuff any more.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
--
gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list