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exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL?
Hello,

Is there an end of life date for the "taintwarn" branch?


Thanks
Paul

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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
On 21/05/2021 13:24, Paul Griffith via Exim-users wrote:
> Is there an end of life date for the "taintwarn" branch?

When 4.95 hits the streets.

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Jeremy

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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
Am 24.05.2021 um 11:04 schrieb Jeremy Harris via Exim-users:
> On 21/05/2021 13:24, Paul Griffith via Exim-users wrote:

>> Is there an end of life date for the "taintwarn" branch?
>
> When 4.95 hits the streets.

Shouldn't this happen as a major release? Would be an 'heads up' telling
people about possible config breaking.


Regards,

Paul

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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Paul Muster via Exim-users wrote:

> Am 24.05.2021 um 11:04 schrieb Jeremy Harris via Exim-users:
>> On 21/05/2021 13:24, Paul Griffith via Exim-users wrote:
>
>>> Is there an end of life date for the "taintwarn" branch?
>>
>> When 4.95 hits the streets.
>
> Shouldn't this happen as a major release? Would be an 'heads up' telling
> people about possible config breaking.


Ah. I wasa thinking that that branch would EOL if a 4.94.3 appeared.

As I understood it, taint-warn would be in 4.95 (and 4.94.3 if it
happens) so the would be no need to continue 4.94.2+taintwarn.

----

What happens after 4.99 - 4.100 or 5.00 (which IIRC is the way exim 2.0
happened) ?

A major release is going to be a major headache for Debian/Ubuntu users.
Changing program name and config/spool/run/log dirs to exim5 :-(

How long will Exim and Debian want to support exim4 *and* exim5 ?

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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
On 25/05/2021 08:12, Paul Muster via Exim-users wrote:
> Am 24.05.2021 um 11:04 schrieb Jeremy Harris via Exim-users:
>> On 21/05/2021 13:24, Paul Griffith via Exim-users wrote:
>>> Is there an end of life date for the "taintwarn" branch?
>>
>> When 4.95 hits the streets.
>
> Shouldn't this happen as a major release? Would be an 'heads up' telling people about possible config breaking.

4.95 is a major release. And the intent of the taintwarn
addition is to not break anything.
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Jeremy

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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
On 25/05/2021 09:23, Andrew C Aitchison via Exim-users wrote:
> What happens after 4.99 - 4.100 or 5.00 (

I'm assuming 4.100

No plans for an Exim version 5; that would be used for
a "you now need to totally rework your configuration
files, and also your mental model of How Exim Works"
class of change.

No doubt there will be screams from people that assume
4.99 is a decimal number.
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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
Hi,
> On 25/05/2021 09:23, Andrew C Aitchison via Exim-users wrote:
> > What happens after 4.99 - 4.100 or 5.00 (
>
> I'm assuming 4.100
>
> No plans for an Exim version 5; that would be used for
> a "you now need to totally rework your configuration
> files, and also your mental model of How Exim Works"
> class of change.

A bit like the effect of adding tainting checks then ;-)

D
lists/exim/users/2021-05-25.tx exim-users
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>
> No doubt there will be screams from people that assume
> 4.99 is a decimal number.
> --
> Cheers,
> Jeremy
>
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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
Am 25.05.2021 um 10:27 schrieb Jeremy Harris via Exim-users:
> On 25/05/2021 08:12, Paul Muster via Exim-users wrote:
>> Am 24.05.2021 um 11:04 schrieb Jeremy Harris via Exim-users:
>>> On 21/05/2021 13:24, Paul Griffith via Exim-users wrote:

>>>> Is there an end of life date for the "taintwarn" branch?
>>>
>>> When 4.95 hits the streets.
>>
>> Shouldn't this happen as a major release? Would be an 'heads up'
>> telling people about possible config breaking.
>
> 4.95 is a major release.

What do you call the switch from 3.x to 4.0 then? A 'colonel release'? ;-)

Maybe it's common practise regarding exim to call 4.9x to 4.9[x+1] a
major release. But not everybody is aware of that fact, most people may
expect <major relase>.<minor release>.<patch/hotfix release>.

> And the intent of the taintwarn
> addition is to not break anything.

Yes, sure. But _EoL_ _of the taintwarn feature_ finally *will* break
running configs. Therefore the taintwarn feature has been built - to
make a step inbetween "works" and "breaks", the phase "warns". Isn't it?


Guys, please don't misunderstand: It's not my intention to nag you! I
just don't like that thousands of administrators get very unhappy with
exim - because I think, it is a really great tool that should make it's
users glad.


Regards,

Paul

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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
Paul Muster via Exim-users <exim-users@exim.org> (Di 25 Mai 2021 16:36:26 CEST):

> > > telling people about possible config breaking.
> > 4.95 is a major release.

Some clarification: The *branch* will be merged, but the "taintwarn"
feature won't disappear with 4.95.

But everybody should read the big red announcement that accompanies the
"taintwarn" feature: A *future* version of Exim will ignore this new (and
deprecated already now) option. Currently it is not clear, what "future"
means.

The option is meant as mitigation in case you upgrade from <4.94 to
>=4.94. In theory everybody should run 4.94.2 now (as all other versions
are not secure anymore. In practice backports to previous versions exist
(I know of 4.92.3 + security patches, others might exist.) So in theory
everybody now has the chance to make the configuration secure until we
release an Exim w/o the "taintwarn" feature.

But that's theory, as "officially" the "taintwarn" doesn't even exist.
It creeped into the 4.94.2+fixes branch silently, some may have it,
others may not have it. (Debian has it, e.g. And Debian was the reason
for me to develop it, as they want to ship 4.94, and w/o "taintwarn"
this would ask for trouble with all letters capitalized.)

> > And the intent of the taintwarn
> > addition is to not break anything.
>
> Yes, sure. But _EoL_ _of the taintwarn feature_ finally *will* break running
> configs. Therefore the taintwarn feature has been built - to make a step
> inbetween "works" and "breaks", the phase "warns". Isn't it?

We're not talking about EOL of the taintwarn feature right now. But its
EOL will be definitly in one of the next releases. But *not* in 4.95.

To rephrase it:

- Exim 4.95 will contain "taintwarn"
- It is meant as support for upgrading your config, w/o breaking your
setup instantly.
- With a future¹ release of Exim we will drop the "taintwarn" support.
- If you failed to upgrade your config, your setup will be broken with a
future¹ release of Exim.

¹) It is not decided yet, what "future" means. It may or may not be 4.96.

Best regards from Dresden/Germany
Viele Grüße aus Dresden
Heiko Schlittermann
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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
On 26.05.21 15:07, Heiko Schlittermann via Exim-users wrote:

> We're not talking about EOL of the taintwarn feature right now. But its
> EOL will be definitly in one of the next releases. But *not* in 4.95.

Thanks for clarifying. Sorry for the noise from my side resulting from
misunderstanding the plans.


Regards,

Paul

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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
>> To rephrase it:
>
> - Exim 4.95 will contain "taintwarn"
> - It is meant as support for upgrading your config, w/o breaking your
> setup instantly.
> - With a future¹ release of Exim we will drop the "taintwarn" support.
> - If you failed to upgrade your config, your setup will be broken with a
> future¹ release of Exim.
>
> ¹) It is not decided yet, what "future" means. It may or may not be 4.96.

Although I understand that the Exim project may not want to wait that
long, from my perspective it would be ideal if the taintwarn feature
lasted long enough to make it into LTS Linux releases. Otherwise, from
the perspective of LTS people who use distribution packages, the feature
basically won't exist; they will jump straight into a version that breaks
their setup (if they haven't already[*]).

Based on past timing, Ubuntu 22.04 will freeze the Debian Exim package
sometime early next year. I don't know if Exim is in the base version of
Red Hat Enterprise, but RHEL EPEL appears to be following upstream Exim
versions instead of freezing on one (EPEL currently has 4.94.2 for both
7 and 8). Other LTS Linuxes I don't know about.

(Debian might be considered a 'LTS' enough distribution, and they're
going at a pace of roughly a release every two years, with one probably
due soon and so another likely in roughly mid 2023.)

- cks
[.*: We're skipping Ubuntu 20.04 on our Exim machines because the 20.04
Exim version is broken. Other people may be in the same situation
with Ubuntu or other distributions.
]

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Re: exim-4.94.2+taintwarn - when will it be EOL? [ In reply to ]
Hello Chris,

Chris Siebenmann <cks@cs.toronto.edu> (Mo 31 Mai 2021 17:59:23 CEST):
> >> To rephrase it:
> >
> > ¹) It is not decided yet, what "future" means. It may or may not be 4.96.
>
> Although I understand that the Exim project may not want to wait that
> long, from my perspective it would be ideal if the taintwarn feature
> lasted long enough to make it into LTS Linux releases. Otherwise, from
> the perspective of LTS people who use distribution packages, the feature
> basically won't exist; they will jump straight into a version that breaks
> their setup (if they haven't already[*]).

We're aware of this and when it is time to think about dropping "taintwarn",
we'll seek for advice from the distro users, to avoid breaking things
badly.

Best regards from Dresden/Germany
Viele Grüße aus Dresden
Heiko Schlittermann
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