Mailing List Archive

[nsp] 7500 insertion force
I recently got a 7507 chassis.

It takes a huge amount of force to seat cards in certain slots. One
problem I noticed is that if I have a VIP in Slot 1 and try to put an RSP
in Slot 2, I can't. I have to pull the VIP card first, then put the RSP
card in, then the VIP card can go in. In other words, the order you put
cards in the chassis is important for some reason. It's as though the
chassis has an alignment problem of some kind.

Is this just how this beast works? Seems wild to have to take down an
entire VIP to hotswap an RSP.


Chris
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
My guess is that the chassis may have experienced shipping damage and is no
longer 'square'.

Joe



On 9/6/02 8:17 AM, "Cisco Geek Rotation" <cisco@peakpeak.com> wrote:

> I recently got a 7507 chassis.
>
> It takes a huge amount of force to seat cards in certain slots. One
> problem I noticed is that if I have a VIP in Slot 1 and try to put an RSP
> in Slot 2, I can't. I have to pull the VIP card first, then put the RSP
> card in, then the VIP card can go in. In other words, the order you put
> cards in the chassis is important for some reason. It's as though the
> chassis has an alignment problem of some kind.
>
> Is this just how this beast works? Seems wild to have to take down an
> entire VIP to hotswap an RSP.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cisco-nsp mailing list real_name)s@puck.nether.net
> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>
>
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, joe mcguckin wrote:

> My guess is that the chassis may have experienced shipping damage and is no
> longer 'square'.

I've seen UPS really smash some packages...one of which contained live
ammunition. A 7507 is a little big to be kicking around like a football
though.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Lewis *jlewis@lewis.org*| I route
System Administrator | therefore you are
Atlantic Net |
_________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
At 02:25 PM 9/6/2002 -0400, jlewis@lewis.org wrote:
>On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, joe mcguckin wrote:
>
> > My guess is that the chassis may have experienced shipping damage and is no
> > longer 'square'.
>
>I've seen UPS really smash some packages...one of which contained live
>ammunition. A 7507 is a little big to be kicking around like a football
>though.
>


I worked at UPS before college. Consequently, I don't ship much through
them having seen the inside :) We demand FedEx delivery for our stuff,
they pamper things a lot more.

Chris
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Cisco Geek Rotation wrote:

> Is this just how this beast works? Seems wild to have to take down an
> entire VIP to hotswap an RSP.

Given the reliability of OIR on the 7500 that would be an improvement. :)

Bradley
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
At 12:09 PM 9/6/2002 -0700, Bradley Dunn wrote:
>On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Cisco Geek Rotation wrote:
>
> > Is this just how this beast works? Seems wild to have to take down an
> > entire VIP to hotswap an RSP.
>
>Given the reliability of OIR on the 7500 that would be an improvement. :)
>
>Bradley

Can you elaborate on that a little bit? That sounds interesting.

Chris
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Cisco Geek Rotation wrote:

> > > Is this just how this beast works? Seems wild to have to take down an
> > > entire VIP to hotswap an RSP.
> >
> >Given the reliability of OIR on the 7500 that would be an improvement. :)
> >
> >Bradley
>
> Can you elaborate on that a little bit? That sounds interesting.

You've never heard of OIR-induced crashes? Actually, I know you have. OIR
really just means you can hot plug/unplug cards without shutting off the
router to do so. It doesn't mean you won't be power cycling the router
after OIR.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Lewis *jlewis@lewis.org*| I route
System Administrator | therefore you are
Atlantic Net |
_________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
The Cisco 7500 CBUS is shared amoung all the line cards attached
to it. When you do an OIR the bus is electrically interrupted and a
CBUS complex operation is started to rediscover the cards. This usually
means that all packet forwarding stops for 20-30 seconds. If your lucky,
everything comes back and the new card is ready for use. We have run
into a lot of problems with OIR and we now power off our 7513s before swapping
line cards.

CBUS complex:
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/63/cbus_complex.html
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/63/top_issues/router_issues/cbus_complex.html


On Fri, Sep 06, 2002 at 01:30:26PM -0600, Cisco Geek Rotation wrote:
> At 12:09 PM 9/6/2002 -0700, Bradley Dunn wrote:
>
> Can you elaborate on that a little bit? That sounds interesting.
>

--
=========================================================================
Clinton Work clinton@scripty.com
Calgary, Alberta
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 6 Sep 2002 jlewis@lewis.org wrote:

> You've never heard of OIR-induced crashes? Actually, I know you have. OIR
> really just means you can hot plug/unplug cards without shutting off the
> router to do so. It doesn't mean you won't be power cycling the router
> after OIR.

I thought it stood for Online Insert, then Reboot. :)

Pete

--
Peter J. Templin, Jr., CCNP, CCDP
Networking Consultant

On-Line Internet Services - URDirect.net
A division of Global On-Line Computers
5606 Randolph Blvd templin@urdirect.net
San Antonio, TX 78233 (210)692-9911
RE: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
The docs suggest a reboot afterwards just cant find the
reference now. I think it was in the IMCR notes. OIR
is evil on 7500's. Was playing with some foundry kit
yesterday in the lab and at 30second reboots for a full
chasis and OIR that works one has to wonder why Cisco
dont follow the lead... 7600's I know improve things likewise
GSR's but 30second boots hmmm

Regards,
Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Templin [mailto:templin@urdirect.net]
Sent: 07 September 2002 01:31
To: cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net
Subject: Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force



On Fri, 6 Sep 2002 jlewis@lewis.org wrote:

> You've never heard of OIR-induced crashes? Actually, I know you have. OIR
> really just means you can hot plug/unplug cards without shutting off the
> router to do so. It doesn't mean you won't be power cycling the router
> after OIR.

I thought it stood for Online Insert, then Reboot. :)

Pete

--
Peter J. Templin, Jr., CCNP, CCDP
Networking Consultant

On-Line Internet Services - URDirect.net
A division of Global On-Line Computers
5606 Randolph Blvd templin@urdirect.net
San Antonio, TX 78233 (210)692-9911


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Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
Hi

Anyone know how "service single-slot-reload-enable" affects the
OIR (75XX) problem ?

What about 720X OIR experiences ?


Please see in-line comments below for more detail

--
Thanks
Rafi



Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:27:31 -0600
From: Clinton Work <work@scripty.com>
To: Cisco-NSP <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force


The Cisco 7500 CBUS is shared amoung all the line cards attached
to it. When you do an OIR the bus is electrically interrupted and a
CBUS complex operation is started to rediscover the cards. This usually
means that all packet forwarding stops for 20-30 seconds. If your lucky,
everything comes back and the new card is ready for use. We have run
into a lot of problems with OIR and we now power off our 7513s before swapping
line cards.

CBUS complex:
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/63/cbus_complex.html
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/63/top_issues/router_issues/cbus_complex.html

Quoting from the end of the second URL refernce:

---
How Can I Avoid a Cbus Complex When a VIP Reloads?

A new feature called Single Line Card Reload (SLCR) has recently been
introduced in Cisco IOS® Software version 12.0(13)S. This feature allows
you to only reset the affected line card, as opposed to resetting all the
line cards in the system, which results in a shorter recovery time, and in
a much shorter traffic interruption.

When this feature is enabled:

* The affected card first downloads its microcode without blocking the
traffic between other interface processors.

* The MEMD is then re-carved. As stated above, this process only takes
a few seconds. During that time, all traffic is interrupted.

In summary, traffic interruption lasts around 20 seconds (microcode
download and re-carving) for the affected interface, and just a few
seconds for all other interfaces (compared to two minutes for all the
interfaces in a standard Cbus Complex).
---

Quoting from:

<http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/software/ios120/120newft/120limit/120s/120s13/slcr.htm>
---
Feature Overview

Before the introduction of the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload
feature, the only method of correcting a line card hardware failure or a severe
software error for one line card on a Cisco 7500 series router required
the execution of a Cbus Complex, a process that reloaded every line card
on the network backplane. The time taken to complete the Cbus Complex was
often inconvenient, and no network traffic could be routed or switched
during the Cbus Complex process.

The Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload feature allows users to correct a
line card failure on a Cisco 7500 series router by automatically reloading
the microcode on a failed line card. During the single line card reload
process, all physical lines and routing protocols on the other line cards
of the network backplane remain active. A single line card reload is also
significantly faster than the Cbus Complex process.
Benefits

Improved Line Card Recovery Time

The time required to correct a line card hardware failure for one line
card is significantly improved when the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload
feature is enabled. The entire system, which now only reloads one line
card instead of every line card, also experiences a dramatic improvement
in recovery time.

Network Traffic Flow Improvements

Because the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload feature only reloads the
line card with the hardware failure rather than all of the line cards on
the Cisco 7500 network backplane, the active line cards can continue to
forward network traffic.
---
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
Cisco Geek Rotation <cisco@peakpeak.com> writes:

> I worked at UPS before college. Consequently, I don't ship much
> through them having seen the inside :) We demand FedEx delivery for
> our stuff, they pamper things a lot more.

My success rate for shipping 7000s, 7507s, and 7513s via FedEx Heavy
without damage is 20% (this is in Cisco-provided packaging with
appropriate labels &c). Back in 1998 or perhaps early '99, I decided
that I'd had quite enough of broken hardware and started demanding
that all heavy shipments to our office go via an air freight company
and a freight forwarder, not a package delivery service. Voila, no
more broken equipment. If you've seen pictures online of a 7513 with
trapezoidal-shaped power supply cavities, that was us. :)

Bottom line is, UPS, Fedex, Airborne, DHL, and any other primarily
"package delivery" service does not have the proper mindset for
shipping stuff that weighs more than their normal cutoff weight but is
still small enough to be handled with a hand truck instead of a pallet
jack if one is foolhardy. Use a real freight company that understands
cargo handling, and life is just fine.

1-800-NO-FEDEX

---Rob
Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 7 Sep 2002, Rafi Sadowsky wrote:

> What about 720X OIR experiences ?

Has been extremely kind to me. Both in production gear and in a few
offline tests where I've rearranged 5 cards to see what would happen.

Charles

>
> Please see in-line comments below for more detail
>
> --
> Thanks
> Rafi
>
>
>
> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:27:31 -0600
> From: Clinton Work <work@scripty.com>
> To: Cisco-NSP <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net>
> Subject: Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force
>
>
> The Cisco 7500 CBUS is shared amoung all the line cards attached
> to it. When you do an OIR the bus is electrically interrupted and a
> CBUS complex operation is started to rediscover the cards. This usually
> means that all packet forwarding stops for 20-30 seconds. If your lucky,
> everything comes back and the new card is ready for use. We have run
> into a lot of problems with OIR and we now power off our 7513s before swapping
> line cards.
>
> CBUS complex:
> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/63/cbus_complex.html
> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/63/top_issues/router_issues/cbus_complex.html
>
> Quoting from the end of the second URL refernce:
>
> ---
> How Can I Avoid a Cbus Complex When a VIP Reloads?
>
> A new feature called Single Line Card Reload (SLCR) has recently been
> introduced in Cisco IOS® Software version 12.0(13)S. This feature allows
> you to only reset the affected line card, as opposed to resetting all the
> line cards in the system, which results in a shorter recovery time, and in
> a much shorter traffic interruption.
>
> When this feature is enabled:
>
> * The affected card first downloads its microcode without blocking the
> traffic between other interface processors.
>
> * The MEMD is then re-carved. As stated above, this process only takes
> a few seconds. During that time, all traffic is interrupted.
>
> In summary, traffic interruption lasts around 20 seconds (microcode
> download and re-carving) for the affected interface, and just a few
> seconds for all other interfaces (compared to two minutes for all the
> interfaces in a standard Cbus Complex).
> ---
>
> Quoting from:
>
> <http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/software/ios120/120newft/120limit/120s/120s13/slcr.htm>
> ---
> Feature Overview
>
> Before the introduction of the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload
> feature, the only method of correcting a line card hardware failure or a severe
> software error for one line card on a Cisco 7500 series router required
> the execution of a Cbus Complex, a process that reloaded every line card
> on the network backplane. The time taken to complete the Cbus Complex was
> often inconvenient, and no network traffic could be routed or switched
> during the Cbus Complex process.
>
> The Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload feature allows users to correct a
> line card failure on a Cisco 7500 series router by automatically reloading
> the microcode on a failed line card. During the single line card reload
> process, all physical lines and routing protocols on the other line cards
> of the network backplane remain active. A single line card reload is also
> significantly faster than the Cbus Complex process.
> Benefits
>
> Improved Line Card Recovery Time
>
> The time required to correct a line card hardware failure for one line
> card is significantly improved when the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload
> feature is enabled. The entire system, which now only reloads one line
> card instead of every line card, also experiences a dramatic improvement
> in recovery time.
>
> Network Traffic Flow Improvements
>
> Because the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload feature only reloads the
> line card with the hardware failure rather than all of the line cards on
> the Cisco 7500 network backplane, the active line cards can continue to
> forward network traffic.
> ---
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cisco-nsp mailing list real_name)s@puck.nether.net
> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>
RE: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rafi Sadowsky [mailto:rafi@meron.openu.ac.il]
> Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 13:10
> To: cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net
> Cc: Clinton Work
> Subject: Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> Anyone know how "service single-slot-reload-enable" affects the
> OIR (75XX) problem ?
>
> What about 720X OIR experiences ?


In my experience usually works ok.
I only ran into CSCdm13833 with a PA-MC-8E1 card, it is fixed in recent code.


Release Notes

On a 7200, after an OIR insertion of a POTENT port adapter, the
following message appears on the console for each port of the adapter.
"%LINK-2-LINEST: No linestate vector for.."
This happens with or without traffic.


>
> Please see in-line comments below for more detail
>
> --
> Thanks
> Rafi
>
>
>
> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:27:31 -0600
> From: Clinton Work <work@scripty.com>
> To: Cisco-NSP <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net>
> Subject: Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force
>
>
> The Cisco 7500 CBUS is shared amoung all the line cards attached
> to it. When you do an OIR the bus is electrically interrupted and a
> CBUS complex operation is started to rediscover the cards.
> This usually
> means that all packet forwarding stops for 20-30 seconds. If
> your lucky,
> everything comes back and the new card is ready for use. We have run
> into a lot of problems with OIR and we now power off our
> 7513s before swapping
> line cards.
>
> CBUS complex:
> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/63/cbus_complex.html
> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/63/top_issues/router_issues/c
> bus_complex.html
>
> Quoting from the end of the second URL refernce:
>
> ---
> How Can I Avoid a Cbus Complex When a VIP Reloads?
>
> A new feature called Single Line Card Reload (SLCR) has recently been
> introduced in Cisco IOS® Software version 12.0(13)S. This
> feature allows
> you to only reset the affected line card, as opposed to
> resetting all the
> line cards in the system, which results in a shorter recovery
> time, and in
> a much shorter traffic interruption.
>
> When this feature is enabled:
>
> * The affected card first downloads its microcode without
> blocking the
> traffic between other interface processors.
>
> * The MEMD is then re-carved. As stated above, this process
> only takes
> a few seconds. During that time, all traffic is interrupted.
>
> In summary, traffic interruption lasts around 20 seconds (microcode
> download and re-carving) for the affected interface, and just a few
> seconds for all other interfaces (compared to two minutes for all the
> interfaces in a standard Cbus Complex).
> ---
>
> Quoting from:
>
> <http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/software/ios1
20/120newft/120limit/120s/120s13/slcr.htm>
---
Feature Overview

Before the introduction of the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload
feature, the only method of correcting a line card hardware failure or a severe
software error for one line card on a Cisco 7500 series router required
the execution of a Cbus Complex, a process that reloaded every line card
on the network backplane. The time taken to complete the Cbus Complex was
often inconvenient, and no network traffic could be routed or switched
during the Cbus Complex process.

The Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload feature allows users to correct a
line card failure on a Cisco 7500 series router by automatically reloading
the microcode on a failed line card. During the single line card reload
process, all physical lines and routing protocols on the other line cards
of the network backplane remain active. A single line card reload is also
significantly faster than the Cbus Complex process.
Benefits

Improved Line Card Recovery Time

The time required to correct a line card hardware failure for one line
card is significantly improved when the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload
feature is enabled. The entire system, which now only reloads one line
card instead of every line card, also experiences a dramatic improvement
in recovery time.

Network Traffic Flow Improvements

Because the Cisco 7500 Single Line Card Reload feature only reloads the
line card with the hardware failure rather than all of the line cards on
the Cisco 7500 network backplane, the active line cards can continue to
forward network traffic.
---


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Re: [nsp] 7500 insertion force [ In reply to ]
Hi,

On Sat, Sep 07, 2002 at 09:21:42AM +0100, Kevin Gannon wrote:
> The docs suggest a reboot afterwards just cant find the
> reference now. I think it was in the IMCR notes. OIR
> is evil on 7500's. Was playing with some foundry kit
> yesterday in the lab and at 30second reboots for a full
> chasis and OIR that works one has to wonder why Cisco
> dont follow the lead... 7600's I know improve things likewise
> GSR's but 30second boots hmmm

OIR on the 7200 and 3660 is really cool. It Just Works the way one
expects it to. Ditto for the Catalyst platforms.

I'd say the 7500 is just showing its age - when that one was designed,
there was no foundry or the like around to look at their design and
improve it...

Still, if you know about the OIR issues, and watch out for memory on the
VIPs, and don't have too much load, the 7500s are amazingly reliable (at
least for us).

gert

--
Gert Doering
Mobile communications ... right now writing from *Ripe43 / Rhodos / Greece*